Some WW1 Imperial German weaponry

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Decided to post some of my Imperial German stuff here. It's nice to find a good, active military surplus board online. :smile:

Left: Mauser 1909 Peruvian Contract rifle, 7.65x53
Middle: 1916 Amberg Gew 98
Right: 1916 Spandau Gew 98
http://i.imgur.com/AOsFxdQh.jpg

1917 DWM LP08 Artillery Luger & ~1905-1915 Mauser C96 with Red 9 upper half.
http://i.imgur.com/PTUTQhdh.jpg

1915 Erfurt Kar98AZ - please forgive the noticeably worse quality picture, this was taken by a cell phone instead of my brother's DSLR that I was borrowing at the time
http://i.imgur.com/DybFMXKh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XD83aYth.jpg

[aspangler]

NICE! Wish I had a few more like that in my collection. Thanks for sharing.

[nagantguy]

Very handsome collection, I was a k98 collector until I was bitten by the nagant bug.

[Multigunner]

I've heard of a Sebian copy of the 98A carbine that used a large ring barrel shank in a small diameter receiver ring. A bad combination.

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Not sure, it's news to me that the Yugoslavs/Serbians made a 98A copy at all! I know the Poles used 98A designs up to a point in the Kbk wz. 1898 in their plant at Radom, which had a lot of old tooling from the Royal Prussian Arsenal at Danzig.

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More of the C96:

http://i.imgur.com/2SETKJbh.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/v30nNHnh.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/ha8R8OBh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vLUgwcgh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YLoOn4zh.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/ZPZFWD6h.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/vPGndJmh.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/q676nHBh.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/keh1JPXh.jpg?1

[Multigunner]

Not sure, it's news to me that the Yugoslavs/Serbians made a 98A copy at all! I know the Poles used 98A designs up to a point in the Kbk wz. 1898 in their plant at Radom, which had a lot of old tooling from the Royal Prussian Arsenal at Danzig.

I don't really remember the details, it may not have been Serbian made.
I ran across this in a book on rebarreling Mauser military receivers many years ago.
The rifle was a non German copy of the 98A artillery carbine. The receiver was a small ring but threaded for the large ring barrel shank.
Apparently they were safe to shoot but not easy to rebarrel successfully because the receiver ring walls were too thin.

[gew98]

The 98a was not an "artillery carbine". It was intended and designed to be a universal carbine for all branches of service. The Poles were the only ones to produce a copy of the 98a they called the K98. It influenced the K29/Wz29 rifle(s). I had a bolt only mismatch polish W98...it was a dead nutz copy of the gew98 down to the LV rear sight...was a 1923 Warsaw , first year the poles made a copy of the gew98 and only year they made them with the LV rear sight.
Some guys get confused with 98a's that were scrubbed and rebuilt for the spanish civil war and or by the turks.

[gew98]

[QUOTE=Multigunner;2373029 The receiver was a small ring but threaded for the large ring barrel shank.
Apparently they were safe to shoot but not easy to rebarrel successfully because the receiver ring walls were too thin.[/QUOTE]


I have taken gew98 barrels and 98k barrels and screwed them into 98a receivers and made beautiful deer rifles of such franken mausers. The thread and shank on the 98a are the same as the gew98 and later 98k's.

[Multigunner]

Yep found the specs for the 98A


3) WWI German KAR98A,
1.30 diameter. receiver ring, 8.750 in length, with screw spacing, of 7.835 (Long action, Small ring).
Has a threaded shank diameter of 1.100 in. With 12 threads per inch.
WWI German Carbine, Also Polish 98az Uses a standard M-98 Bolt.

From what little I remember of the book on rebarreling Mausers I had thought the copy (most likely Polish, but possibly a knock off rifle in limited use by another country and scrubbed of original markings) was unusual in taking the large ring barrel shank. Bit surprised to find this was the SOP.

I ran across a badly bubba'ed 98A many years ago. I passed on it because someone had tried to mount a receiver sight and badly messed up the bridge. It had several huge holes that would have required welding and milling to put back in decent shape.

PS
http://www.ycgg.org/pdfpages/kar98.pdf
According to this the 98a with its stacking swivel (not needed in the cavalry role)followed the basic layout of the Gew 91 artillery carbine.
So its basically an artillery carbine approved for use by both artillery and cavalry.

[gew98]

Multi ; The addition of the stacking hook to the kar98a did NOT make it an artillery carbine. It was part of the final package that made the universal carbine for german issue to all branches that required such a shorter than rifle length carbine. The kar88 was designated a carbine , but the artillery version with stacking rod was "gew91" , which in german nomenclature does not infer carbine but rifle in designation. Even radfahrer troops got issued gew91's as well as kar88's. The kar98a was meant to satisfy all branches of service needs..not specifically one , hence the discontinuance of the 88 and 91's.
I have encountered many post WW1 commercial european sporter rigs based on the 98a....scoped and iron sighted with most being very high end craftsmanship.I've built a bunch of sporters from salvaged 98a's with all manner of 98k and gew98 parts used that are typically a good german fit.
The ruggedness and functionality of the german rifles surpassed those 03 spngfld's of the same eras...and always will.One of the reasons I collect them and have studied up on them over the years.

[Multigunner]

http://forum.axishistory.com/files/aisne1914.jpg
If the above link works it shows what appears to be German Artillerymen with slung short rifle versions of the Gew 88 with stacking swivel and bent bolt handle. Proportions are much the same as the K98a short rifle. If that's the standard for these then the Gew vs Kar terminology doesn't mean a whole lot.
One source stated that the K98a was first issued to Artillerymen. I suppose an intention to arm all branches of the services with the same model was in practice near impossible, so it would have taken years to complete such a plan in the best of circumstances, and wartime necessities would have taken precedent.




hence the discontinuance of the 88 and 91's.
I expect these would have been discontinued in any case (though photos indicated some continued in service). A shorter barreled carbine built on the 98 action with a flat bolt handle as found on the 88 actioned carbines was developed for the cavalry, but excessive muzzle blast of the new 7.92X57s cartridge from such a short barrel, and heavy recoil from such a lightweight package affected the decision to use a short rifle rather than the smaller carbine.

The idea of a short rifle suited to use by all branches seems to have been on everyones minds, resulting in the SMLE and 1903 Springfield rifles among others.

The Germans preferred the added mass of the large ring action for a heavy duty weapon.
As average working chamber pressures of the standard issue Ball cartridges increased the safety margin of the smaller ring actions decreased.
Add to this the increased probably of encountering defective ammunition as production pressures took their toll and the decision to keep the large ring action as the standard is understandable.

I have heard that swollen chambers are less likely with a large barrel shank compared to the earlier smaller diameter shank even if the receiver walls are thinner than with a large ring receiver.

I've also heard that the large ring was developed from an 1896 sporting rifle with interrupted thread take down barrel. The extra mass making the lock up of the barrel more secure. The same receiver with regular threading was picked for the 98 design. A article on this sporting rifle revealed that a number of features of the 1898 action also came from that design.

[gew98]

Multi... again as you are not a specific collector you throw alot of vague this or that at this subject. The kar88 and the gew91 are identical excepting for stacking hook and nomenclature. The germans with the adoption of the kar98a created a "universal" carbine for issue to ALL branches that required a less than full length rifle. Dieter Storz's awesome book clears up alot of the misinformation you allude to as somehow fact. The changeover from 88 patronen to S patronen in 1903 exposed the problem with 'uber' short carbines that were acceptble beforehand with 88 patronen previously but not so with S patronen. The kar98a was intended as a universal replacement and not an artillery first.Don't allude to sources you cannot refer to especailly when your knowledge on the subject matter is weak.

[Multigunner]

Multi... again as you are not a specific collector you throw alot of vague this or that at this subject.
Just looking at the question logically.
You object to my saying that the 98a was an artillery carbine, though its design characteristics are those associated with the artillery carbines.
The Gew91 vs Kar88 situation points to the nomenclature itself being vague. You can call a pistol a cannon if you like, its still going to be a pistol.




The germans with the adoption of the kar98a created a "universal" carbine for issue to ALL branches that required a less than full length rifle.
And they in effect chose an Artillery Carbine , or "short Rifle" design for that purpose.



Dieter Storz's awesome book clears up alot of the misinformation you allude to as somehow fact. The changeover from 88 patronen to S patronen in 1903 exposed the problem with 'uber' short carbines that were acceptble beforehand with 88 patronen previously but not so with S patronen.

Which is exactly what I'd said was it not?
My words
"I expect these (Kar88 and Gew91)would have been discontinued in any case (though photos indicated some continued in service). A shorter barreled carbine built on the 98 action with a flat bolt handle as found on the 88 actioned carbines was developed for the cavalry, but excessive muzzle blast of the new 7.92X57s cartridge from such a short barrel, and heavy recoil from such a lightweight package affected the decision to use a short rifle rather than the smaller carbine."

I once owned a Iranian Mauser carbine with 18 inch barrel so I know exactly why the 7.92X57s cartridge along with other similar cartridges are not suited to barrels that short.





The kar98a was intended as a universal replacement and not an artillery first.
Intentions or not it turned out not to be a universal replacement.

They were far more sucessful many years later when the K98K design was finalized.
Issue of the 98A and development of the K98K were based on the same concept that resulted in the design of the SMLE Springfield 03 and similar short rifles.
All were developments of the much older concept of a short rifle intended for gun crews, teamsters and ammo handlers. A rifle more effective at longer ranges than a calvary carbine and compact and easy to handle so it did not interfere with regular duties.
In muzzle loader days it would fall into the "musketoon" category, between carbine and musket.
Today we would not consider any of these to be short rifles much less carbines unless comparing them to earlier rifles. The general dimensions are common to so many bolt action battle rifles and sporting rifles.


PS
Back to the design of this particular short rifle.

The profile of the grip looks to me as if it would discourage stock crawling and insure that the shooter did not get his knuckles rapped by the rear of the trigger guard or the bolt knob when the light rifle recoiled.
The grip of the Gew 98 and later K98K have a more conventional profile.

The Flat bolt handle of the Gew 91 being inherited from the Kar 88 was less suited to a short rifle. There was no need to flatten the profile to ease entry into a saddle scabbard.
Nothing was being given up to accommodate cavalry use. The cavalry were in effect being given an artilleryman's short rifle because the changing conditions of the early 20th century battle field were making cavalry tactics obsolete. The cavalry was more and more being deployed as "mounted Infantry" rather than cavalry. Scouting parties were a nod to the old cavalry, but otherwise the horse was there to put a rifleman in place quickly.
Charging into the massed machineguns, man portable light cannon and repeating rifles of a dug in enemy was a losing proposition.

Also Karabin or Karabiner is an interesting term. It can mean just about any type of rifle. The Karabiner 98b for example had the same OAL and barrel length as the Gew98. The K98K designation is more specific. Its a Karabiner 98 Kurtz, a "short rifle".

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Also Karabin or Karabiner is an interesting term. It can mean just about any type of rifle. The Karabiner 98b for example had the same OAL and barrel length as the Gew98. The K98K designation is more specific. Its a Karabiner 98 Kurtz, a "short rifle".

I've heard an interesting thing that the German term for "Karabiner" was a reference to how the sling was mounted. On the Kar 98AZ and later Kar 98K, the sling was mounted on the side of the gun to allow for the bolt to clear the body of the soldier better, as opposed to the six-o-clock sling position of the Gewehr 98.

[frnkeore]

The word "Karabiner" translates to snap link or crab.

Frank

[frnkeore]

81202
My German Imperial WW1 rifles.

Frank

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Took the time to take some better pictures of my 1916 Amberg Gew 98 and 1915 Erfurt Kar 98AZ.

Kar 98AZ:
http://i.imgur.com/5uBpDKHh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5aAObWPh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fpuwf8xh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mqoFRinh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mYgVTjNh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cVIoFrLh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ezbU2ymh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CfAelXSh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VFSmEkQh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aILXdMEh.jpg

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1916 Amberg Gew 98:
http://i.imgur.com/cEkpRTeh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iInXgW4h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hDw0vWVh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nGES6Rph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E1UFn6ph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X9x3rnjh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qkyyCI5h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GQNX6JFh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IhHXLOVh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8dekPK7h.jpg

[gew98]

Just looking at the question logically.
You object to my saying that the 98a was an artillery carbine, though its design characteristics are those associated with the artillery carbines.
The Gew91 vs Kar88 situation points to the nomenclature itself being vague. You can call a pistol a cannon if you like, its still going to be a pistol.




And they in effect chose an Artillery Carbine , or "short Rifle" design for that purpose.



Which is exactly what I'd said was it not?
My words
"I expect these (Kar88 and Gew91)would have been discontinued in any case (though photos indicated some continued in service). A shorter barreled carbine built on the 98 action with a flat bolt handle as found on the 88 actioned carbines was developed for the cavalry, but excessive muzzle blast of the new 7.92X57s cartridge from such a short barrel, and heavy recoil from such a lightweight package affected the decision to use a short rifle rather than the smaller carbine."

I once owned a Iranian Mauser carbine with 18 inch barrel so I know exactly why the 7.92X57s cartridge along with other similar cartridges are not suited to barrels that short.





Intentions or not it turned out not to be a universal replacement.

They were far more sucessful many years later when the K98K design was finalized.
Issue of the 98A and development of the K98K were based on the same concept that resulted in the design of the SMLE Springfield 03 and similar short rifles.
All were developments of the much older concept of a short rifle intended for gun crews, teamsters and ammo handlers. A rifle more effective at longer ranges than a calvary carbine and compact and easy to handle so it did not interfere with regular duties.
In muzzle loader days it would fall into the "musketoon" category, between carbine and musket.
Today we would not consider any of these to be short rifles much less carbines unless comparing them to earlier rifles. The general dimensions are common to so many bolt action battle rifles and sporting rifles.


PS
Back to the design of this particular short rifle.

The profile of the grip looks to me as if it would discourage stock crawling and insure that the shooter did not get his knuckles rapped by the rear of the trigger guard or the bolt knob when the light rifle recoiled.
The grip of the Gew 98 and later K98K have a more conventional profile.

The Flat bolt handle of the Gew 91 being inherited from the Kar 88 was less suited to a short rifle. There was no need to flatten the profile to ease entry into a saddle scabbard.
Nothing was being given up to accommodate cavalry use. The cavalry were in effect being given an artilleryman's short rifle because the changing conditions of the early 20th century battle field were making cavalry tactics obsolete. The cavalry was more and more being deployed as "mounted Infantry" rather than cavalry. Scouting parties were a nod to the old cavalry, but otherwise the horse was there to put a rifleman in place quickly.
Charging into the massed machineguns, man portable light cannon and repeating rifles of a dug in enemy was a losing proposition.

Also Karabin or Karabiner is an interesting term. It can mean just about any type of rifle. The Karabiner 98b for example had the same OAL and barrel length as the Gew98. The K98K designation is more specific. Its a Karabiner 98 Kurtz, a "short rifle".

You proved my point with your pontificating and divergence from the kar98a. Stick to your "wiki" and I'll stick to my hands on collecting for better or worse.

[gew98]

812068120781208
81202
My German Imperial WW1 rifles.

Frank

I love gew88's as well. All my beauties have matching bolts and are not turked with. and they can shoot !.

[gew98]

I like my gew98's for sure.

[gew98]

Yeah..old teutonic steel....

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I would hope someone with a username of "gew98" would enjoy his GEWs! :p

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Yeah..old teutonic steel....

Wow, a unique variation. Those are anti-aircraft sights, correct? There's a Gew 98 with night sights coming up in the next RIA premium auction, too.

[Multigunner]

Some unusual variations of the 98A-98AZ type rifles on this site.http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/RiflesMauser.html
Example from halfway down the page.

DESCRIPTION: Unusual German Kar. 98AZ style carbine in 6.9 x 57 mm caliber! The carbine has a very short, 17.25 inch barrel (rather than 23.2 inch long barrel found on K98AZ). The overall length of the carbine is only 37.25 inch (compare to 43 inch overall length of K98AZ). The lower part of the barrel (under the stock) displays following marking: "Crown over B, Crown over U, Crown over G, 6.9 mm 57, 4/27, Crown Stm G, N 11gr". Based on the markings, the carbine was built (or converted) in April 1927.
How many of those are in your collection?
Are these mentioned in the book you recommended?
Similar 88 actioned carbine
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artfact.com%2Fauction-lot%2Fgerman-mod.1888-b-a-artillery-carbine%3A-6.9x57-cal-281-c-cd81ffee78&ei=P7UrUuvFNK254APs6oCgDg&usg=AFQjCNEw4QC7xsTPv6Qr8sin5BocXS0qlA&bvm=bv.51773540,d.dmg

Never seen the 6.9mm designation before, (perhaps a variation of the 7mm?). I've read of a 5.9 mm cartridge the Germans experimented with for awhile.
China experimented with a 6.8 (.270) Mauser cartridge pre WW2.
The Polish .22 RF trainer would be a real catch.
While looking for any signs of a Serbian 98A I did find that at least one otherwise unknown Serbian Mauser carbine is in a collection, with no sign of it having been a standard issue. That example is built on a 1910 action.

The 98A type rifles with scrubbed receiver rings may have caused some problems in re-barreling, and safety issues if they went too deep and cut through the carburized layer.
I've read of a Norwegian reworked K98 arsenal re-barreled to .30-06 letting go because the original NAZI marking had been roughly ground away cutting through the hardened layer.
Grinding away any of the surface of the thinner 98A receiver ring could cause problems.

[frnkeore]

6.9 (.2717) is the unrifled bore diameter. Germany proof tested barrels before rifling.

If you add .15mm deep rifling (a std depth) to the bore you get a groove of 7.2mm or .2835

Frank

[Multigunner]

6.9 (.2717) is the unrifled bore diameter. Germany proof tested barrels before rifling.

If you add .15mm deep rifling (a std depth) to the bore you get a groove of 7.2mm or .2835

Frank
Thanks for clearing that up for me Frank.
I suppose that's why the 8mm was later changed to 7.92.
The Chinese 6.8 I mentioned threw me a bit. The 5.6 (I've seen these designated as 5.9 for some reason, possibly a misprint)Experimental was a .22 caliber along the lines of the .22-250, an early attempt at a shooter friendly small bore Infantry rifle, about as effective as the modern 5.56 NATO. There's a similar sporting 5.6X57.
So the 6.9X57 Carbine on that site would be a 7mm Mauser chambering. Serbia used the 7mm early on.
Since Spain ended up with some 98A type rifles there may have been a commercial attempt to unload surplus 98a rifles to Latin countries by re-barreling to 7mm.
I seem to remember a reference to some Serbian rifles having been assembled from surplus parts by small companies.
Early in their independence Serbian troops didn't even have military issue shoes and socks, they had to bring their own, so its likely they used quite a hodge podge of weapons.

[gew98]

Thank you for the online museum tour.
I guess those are some of the weapons my Grandpa had shooting at him when he was in the 78th Lightning Division.

I feel ya !. My grandfather served in the AEF and did not come home until mid 1919 due to being in hospital with shrapnel wounds to the chest. He always talked with acrimony how all his possessions to include his brownie camera dissappeared...but he did realize being dragged from the mud to save his life was worth the loss of such things.

[KCSO]

I got a dandy 1889 Non com sword that would go good with that group. Thats a real nice collection.

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Here's a side-by-side of a Gew 98 and a Kar 98, showing the length difference:

http://i.imgur.com/jVVOb0zh.jpg

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And here's a Mauser Oberndorf Peruvian Contract Modelo 1909. Not quite "Imperial German" in issue, but definitely German through-and-through in the beautiful level of craftsmanship in these contract Mauser rifles.

http://i.imgur.com/1KH0iKDh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iZsT5Rth.jpg

[John Allen]

I would love to have a broomhandle. I am always looking for one.

[baker1425]

How's the luger shoot? Is there much difference in fit and finish for the arty model?

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Artillery Luger shoots pretty well for a nearly 100 year old handgun!

[Multigunner]

Artillery Luger shoots pretty well for a nearly 100 year old handgun!Ever chrono the arty Luger to see what velocity you get with various standard 9X19 rounds?

I've read that in the old days most cartridge companies chrono'ed pistol ammo (even revolver ammo)in single shot bolt action test guns with 10" barrels so I guess the velocity from an 8" barrel was about the same as the published velocity in catalogs, perhaps a hair less.

I have a partial box of very old Remington 9mm Luger cartridges that have the case cannelure that resists bullet push back. I hear some cartridge companies are beginning to bring back that feature.

[IridiumRed]

Those sights shown above are fascinating. I see that it was asked if they were anti aircraft sights, and I didn't see a reply on that, so forgive me if I am asking a question that has already been answered

But, looking at those sights.... I wonder if they are for training ???

The reason I ask is that it looks like the front and rear BOTH have the same offset. I don't know if they can be moved to the other side (so that they both hang off the left side of the rifle), but as they are positioned now, it looks like a right handed person could lay behind the rifle, align the sights on the target, and someone could look over their shoulder, or next to their head, and see the same sight picture as the person behind the rifle. Hence, why I wonder if they are for training??

I've never seen that sort of setup before, but I've seen other designs which would accomplish the same thing (sometimes using mirrors)

Just curious!! That's a fascinating setup, and I'm guessing quite rare(?)! The reason I thought they weren't anti aircraft is that both the front and rear is offset, and they're only offset on one side.... so if you were trying to lead a plane, it would mostly be in one direction of lead....

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Ever chrono the arty Luger to see what velocity you get with various standard 9X19 rounds?

I've read that in the old days most cartridge companies chrono'ed pistol ammo (even revolver ammo)in single shot bolt action test guns with 10" barrels so I guess the velocity from an 8" barrel was about the same as the published velocity in catalogs, perhaps a hair less.

I have a partial box of very old Remington 9mm Luger cartridges that have the case cannelure that resists bullet push back. I hear some cartridge companies are beginning to bring back that feature.

Unfortunately not, I haven't had the opportunity to chrono 9mm loads out of the 200mm barrel that the Artillery Luger sports.