US Model 1917 - Reborn

[Char-Gar]

Some months back, I bought a Remington made 1917 from a member of this board. At sometime in it's life, somebody had slathered on heavy varnish to the stock. I am guessing some VFW or AL color guard unit did this.

I stripped of the varnish with Formby's Furniture Refinisher and found underneath a near pristine original stock with the original oil intact. All I had to do was give the wood a couple of coats of good wax. The varnish had protected the wood and it is in very good condition. The wood is unsanded and has sharp cartouches including the San Antonio Arsenal rebuild stamp where got the metal Parked and a Johnson Automatics barrel installed. A good cleaning of the bore yielded a bright shiny mint barrel. The rifle is in primo condition now.

I am posting a pic here so the former owner can see how it looks now. It is a great rifle and shoots like a house-a-fire.

If any of you guys don't have a M1917 grab one if it comes around. They are great rifles loaded with history.

[Outpost75]

It sure is great to see an old warhorse cleaned, put back in stand-to order and ready to teach the young kids what Grandaddy carried "over there" in the Great War.

[Dutchman]

Mine also a Remington made in March, 1918. Original 5 groove barrel out-shoots my 1903 with cast bullets.

When Springfield Research Service was still online this rifle was ONE digit off from a m/1917 documented in France in 1918. That's about as close as you can get to being sure that this was also in France when first issued. Went to Denmark as Lend-Lease post-WW2. Purchased from Southern Ohio Guns in 1995 for $225.

http://images45.fotki.com/v153/photos/2/28344/157842/scan0022xx-vi.jpg

[Char-Gar]

In addition to the Remington above, I also have a Winchester 1917 that has not been rebuilt. I spotted the distinctive floorplate in a pawnshop in Deming New Mexico also in 1995. They only wanted $125.00 for it, so home it came. I have yet to fire it. When the weather cools off down here, I am off the range with it.

[GabbyM]

Texas should be hot enough.
Haven't tried it personally but have read. Placing the stocks in a black trash bag out in the sun for a day will melt the oil and dirt from the old stocks. Then you wipe them down. Maybe with some solvents. Can't recall the process. Repeat until they look the way you wish. Of course many prefer a patina. Especially on an old war horse. After all some of that grit may be part of a WWI battlefield. Mixed in with the blood and sweat of men who carried her. Imagine getting all that for $125. Argh,, the sights on a 1917 are worth that much.

[Old Iron Sights]

My first 1917 is setting at the UPS depot waiting to go on a truck. Cannot wait to break it down and see what I got. Cost me $520. I'll know if I got a good deal once it gets here.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=360534588

[Char-Gar]

My first 1917 is setting at the UPS depot waiting to go on a truck. Cannot wait to break it down and see what I got. Cost me $520. I'll know if I got a good deal once it gets here.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=360534588

Looks like a good rifle. Probably a WWII rebuild because of the Parkerized metal. Check for rebuild cartouche on the left side of the stock. If the stock is original it will have a large "R" on the tip. All new barrels installed during the WWII rebuild were by Johnson Automatics and are marked "JA" behind the sight. JA barrels are two groove but of very high quality and shoot very well. Not all rebuilds were barreled. If it is the original Remington barrel, it will have 5 grooves.

The seller does not know his rifles, as while Remington operated the Eddystone plant the rifles made there were marked Eddystone and not Remington. Those marked Remington were made in the Remington factory in Illion New York.

I think that is a good price by the way.

[badbob454]

my old friend (tear) at least it is being well taken care of , thanks for the posting , it was a nice ol gun. ..... i was the previous owner sold it when i needed to support my family was laid off ... she is in a better place now ..

[MOcaster]

It sure is great to see an old warhorse cleaned, put back in stand-to order and ready to teach the young kids what Grandaddy carried "over there" in the Great War.

Dang it, why did you have to say "over there"? Do you have any idea how long that is going to be stuck in my head?

[Dutchman]

Probably a WWII rebuild because of the Parkerized metal.

Some originals are Parkerized. It can be difficult to discern Parkerizing from blueing unless you know the difference. Parkerizing was a patented process leaving a surface finish that held oil. That some firearms are sandblasted prior to parkerizing has led many collectors astray. See the Harrison book on the M1917 as he goes into this issue quite well.

When living in Indiana I was asked to go and look at this m/1918 Browning Automatic Rifle and report back to a prospective buyer as to whether it was a rebuild or if it had "original" finish. The m/1918 BAR had commercial type blueing. (the m/1917 rifles that were blued were also of a commercial grade blue).

http://images62.fotki.com/v1315/photos/2/28344/3588536/bar3-vi.jpg

See the streaking? At first it through me as to what the cause was for this. But this is what oil does on a Parkerized finish. It soaks in like this. You won't see streaking like this on a blued finish.

http://images16.fotki.com/v363/photos/2/28344/3588536/z04-vi.jpg

The bipod was painted black. A sure sign of British use.

http://images51.fotki.com/v1562/photos/2/28344/3588536/z10-vi.jpg

Aside from the presence of British proofs.... It was a British rebuild that had the A2 clip guide upgrade which had the original US parkerizing. The buttplate was also the A2 upgrade. The rest of the rifle was original m/1918.

http://images16.fotki.com/v378/photos/2/28344/3588536/z11-vi.jpg

I didn't ask what the price was because it wasn't any business of mine. I was asked to inspect and photograph, that's all I did.

http://images61.fotki.com/v439/photos/2/28344/3588536/z35-vi.jpg

Dude who owned the BAR also had a collection of military vehicles that I got to scope out.

http://images36.fotki.com/v1352/photos/2/28344/3588536/z25-vi.jpg

German personnel carrier.

http://images45.fotki.com/v1257/photos/2/28344/3588536/z32-vi.jpg

http://images62.fotki.com/v1316/photos/2/28344/3588536/z30-vi.jpg

[Char-Gar]

I know nothing about BAR rifles, zero, zip nada, so I can't comment on their finish. Over the years I had not had any difficulty distinguishing between blue finish on US military rifles (Krags, 03s and 1917s) and Parkerized versions. I have both blue (Winchester) and Parkerized (Remington) 1917s in my rack. I will allow that somebody who has not be exposes to these rifles might have a difficulty telling one from another.

Parkerization was started on US Military rifles in September of 1918, so some 1917s will have original Parkerized finish. Remington ceased production in December of 1918, Eddystone the following month (January 1919) and Winchester in April of 1919.

Some 1917s were sent back to arsenal after the war, and some were refinished and some were not. These were not rebuilds in a technical sense and don't have rebuild cartouches on the stock. So you might find some mixed parts on rifles that otherwise appear not to have been rebuilt.

Many were rebuilt at various places as our involvement in WWII started. I understand all of those were refinished with Parkerized metal. These most often did bear stock cartouches of the places where they were rebuilt.

Bottom line is: When looking at a Remington 1917 first check the barrel date. If it is before 8-18 or earlier, it left the factory blued, if it is Parkerized, it is a refinish. If it has a barrel date of 9-18 or later, it may have left the factory Parkerized. It is has a JA barrel it has been rebuilt will be Parkerized. Check for the cartouche on the left side of the stock to see which one, it the wood has not been sanded.

My Winchester 1917 has a barrel date of 3-18 and a SN of the same month production, and all metal is blued.

[Char-Gar]

Dutch is the SN or barrel date that gives you a 3-18 date of birth or both? Is it blue or parked? Does it have a Danish marking or reimport stamp? Are all parts Remington or are there non-Remington parts on it as well? I am trying to increase my knowledge of these rifles and details like this help me.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[pietro]

.

Formby's Furniture Refinisher (Home Cheapo) is the real deal - I haven't had to sand a gunstock (except for the odd repaired area) in the past 15 years since I came across the stuff.

Ya done good...........


.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=pietro;2372424].

Formby's Furniture Refinisher (Home Cheapo) is the real deal - I haven't had to sand a gunstock (except for the odd repaired area) in the past 15 years since I came across the stuff.

Ya done good...........

Yes, it does great getting rid of varnish, lacquer, dirty and crud. It doesn't do much to remove oil in the wood, which can be a good things or a bad things depending on what you want. If you have a load of oil soaked wood, you have to go to black bag or some other trick to sweat it out. I don't like to do that unless I simply must. I like the color the old oil gives the stock. Use a chemical stripper that reaches down into the wood for all the oil and the stock will look like a new one when reoiled. I like old rifles to look like well cared for old rifles and not refinished.

I understand it doesn't work that well on modern plastic finishes, but Formby's sells stuff for that job.

[Bob S]

How did you guys miss the M1917 on GunBroker that had the experimental NM sight?? It's only the third example I have ever seen. The first is a picture in Bruce Canfield's book. The second is on one of my rifles.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Dutchman]

Dutch is the SN or barrel date that gives you a 3-18 date of birth or both? Is it blue or parked? Does it have a Danish marking or reimport stamp? Are all parts Remington or are there non-Remington parts on it as well? I am trying to increase my knowledge of these rifles and details like this help me.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Barrel date is 3-18 and corresponds to the s/n of the rifle. The barreled receiver is beautifully blued. But there are a couple parkerized parts. Not all are Remington parts. There are no Danish markings but SOG advertised them as Danish Lend-Lease as I recall (poor memory). I'll have to check for the import mark and get back to you. There are no US cartouches in the stock other than the small inspection stamps ahead of the triggerguard. No rebuild stamps in the wood.

I'll have to double check but I think the bolt handle has a s/n on it. Not matching. That was one of the identifying characteristics of the Danish Lend-Lease rifles as US practice does not s/n the bolts on the M1917.

Dutch

[Char-Gar]

That sounds like my Winchester, and looks about the same from your pic. Unless the rifle had been through a complete rebuild, it would not have a cartouche on the side of the stock, just the acceptance stamp near the trigger guard. These things were hauled back from France and given a once over. Small parts were replaced with new ones, most often late parts that were parked.

Mine does not have a SN on the bolt. I have had mine out of the wood, but saw no import markings, but I wasn't looking for them either.

These are great old rifles. They were plentiful when I was younger at $29.00 each and I had two of them (Eddystone), but never could be fond of them due to the weight and long barrel. I liked the 03 better, and soon sold the "Enfield's" down river. These days I appreciate the weight, long sight distance, peep rear and extra LOP. Mind outshoot (by a small degree) the 03 and 03A3s.

Lets hang on to these, shall we and let our heirs deal with who gets them next.

[gnoahhh]

You can't reference a barrel date as to the gun's date of birth, necessarily. Early receivers and late barrels were used indiscriminately at time of manufacture, not to mention repairs/rebuilds at depots or in the field. Same goes for '03 Springfields and Krags. It's entirely possible that a gun with a low number and a late barrel left the factory together initially, and re-barreled later with a "correct" dated barrel later on, by pure dumb luck. One rifle that earns a SRS 'hit' as being issued to a specific unit in France while its next-numbered brother could easily have languished in a National Guard depot in Georgia and never made it across the pond.

Two rifles with consecutive serial numbers could have left the factory months apart and sent to two different destinations, and those same two rifles could have gone down the assembly line days or weeks apart and had barrels with wildly divergent dates screwed on. Receivers were, obviously, numbered sequentially as they were made but went into storage bins from which they were grabbed randomly as needed for production. Same with barrels.

If one spends enough time and looks at enough rifles, you develop a feel for what's 'original' or not. It's a subjective thing for the most part, IMO.

[Adk Mike]

I have two. One is a Remington and the other an Eddystone. The Remington I shoot Monthly with Cast bullets only. Both have original barrels. They will be gifted to the Grand Kids. The Remington is a favorite. Excellent shooter.

[Old Iron Sights]

Mine has arrived. Looks like a 5 groove 9-18 barrel. Rebuild stock? Gun it's in really good condition.

[Old Iron Sights]

Oh, is this the big R? Didn't see it at first.

[mroliver77]

Mine is an Eddystone with a 1-18 barrel date.It has an W bolt and W stock. It came from CMP and was supposedly a American Legion turn in a couple years ago.Stock was filthy oily and grimy. I lightly cleaned it. It has a lot of handling polish it appears to me. Barrel was ugly! It took some time but I found nice rifling and shine in there. Bluing is wore mostly off.

Some guys are nuts about putting all the "right" parts back on them. Others believe that there present condition is just part of their history.
Mine is a shooter.
J

[Char-Gar]

Oh, is this the big R? Didn't see it at first.

The cartouche is most likely an inspectors mark at a rebuild or over haul, but I can't identify it. The big R means a Remington stock.

Very nice rifle you have there. Enjoy

[Char-Gar]

Mine is an Eddystone with a 1-18 barrel date.It has an W bolt and W stock. It came from CMP and was supposedly a American Legion turn in a couple years ago.Stock was filthy oily and grimy. I lightly cleaned it. It has a lot of handling polish it appears to me. Barrel was ugly! It took some time but I found nice rifling and shine in there. Bluing is wore mostly off.



Some guys are nuts about putting all the "right" parts back on them. Others believe that there present condition is just part of their history.Mine is a shooter.
J

I don't belong to the "restoration" wing of military rifle owners seeking to find all of the parts to make it right. I belong to the "conservation" wing of military rifle owners. I seek to clean and conserve and bring it back to the condition it was when it last left the care and custody of the military.

[Dutchman]

I don't belong to the "restoration" wing of military rifle owners seeking to find all of the parts to make it right. I belong to the "conservation" wing of military rifle owners. I seek to clean and conserve and bring it back to the condition it was when it last left the care and custody of the military.

The M1917 having parts marked to indicate manufacturer gives the OCD boys a real treat in digging into their rifle. It is an insidious pursuit, IMO. We run into the same issue with Swedish Mausers being numbered with the last 3 digits of the serial number. Some OCD'ers think by finding a part with those same numbers as his rifle will mean it is ~correct~ when it really means no such thing.

I am also of the conservation lobby :).

Dutch

[Old Iron Sights]

Well, the bore took a while to clean. Found sharp rifling, tight muzzle but some deep pitting. We'll see how it does this weekend.

[Win94ae]

Well, the bore took a while to clean. Found sharp rifling, tight muzzle but some deep pitting. We'll see how it does this weekend.

It looks wonderful compared to mine...
81156
...and mine has produced the best group I've ever shot.
It usually gets sub-moa though.
81155
I've not been able to get good cast groups; but I've yet to try paper patching.

[Old Iron Sights]

Well, pitting or no, she does all right. 5 shot group at 100 using some of my garand loads.

[Char-Gar]

She is a keeper!