Green bullets

[josper]

I just read that the us military is going to shift to "green Bullets." Made from tungsten and tin. My big question is ,can this mix be melted and cast??? I hate to see what's coming next.

[gimling]

tungsten?? isn't that an expensive ore?? I would like to see some information on this If you can post some sort of link. tungsten is near twice the strength of steel and more expensive. I can only see if they are using such an ammo its a new type of long range armor piercing type of ammo.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Tungsten has an incredibly high melting point, one of the reasons it was used as the filament in incandescent light bulbs. I wonder how a tungsten-tin alloy would melt out.

dale in Louisiana

[josper]

http://www.princeton.edu/~rmizzo/firingrange.htm It was in this web site

[MtGun44]

Stupid waste of OUR money.
Looney eco-Nazis.

Bill

[dkf]

Well "green" bullets can have tin, tungsten, steel, copper, brass, some kind of powdered metal or whatever. Lead is what they think is evil. Only thing that could really be cast at a reasonable temp that I mentioned is tin however I don't know of any bullets made comprised of mostly tin. Tungsten melts at an extremely hot temp but it can be milled into a fine powder, mixed with a binder, formed and sintered to bind everything together. Basically it is all going to cost the taxpayer more regardless over lead. I have several thousand of frangible 9mm bullets I load which I got for a song. Don't really load any different than jacketed except for being longer for the same weight and if you crimp to much you can break them.

[gimling]

Well if you do some research and look into other "GREEN" uses look at the military looking into green jet fuel. at a cost of about 2,000% higher than what regular jet fuel costs. Looks to me like its another attempt at the gov to make it too expensive to shoot. If this really is the case look for them to BAN the use of lead.

[dkf]

Yeah that whole deal of paying over $20gal for biodiesel made from algae for the navy. When they could have got B20, diesel or kero for well under $4gal at that time. Even B100 was around $4.

[josper]

There is no doubt they are out to screw us.

[41 mag fan]

They don't want to poison the enemy with lead poisoning after our troops shoot them!!

[HollowPoint]

When the word "Green" is attached to anything our government has to do with, -this appearently includes our military- the word "Green" generally refers to MONEY; lots of money spent unwisely.

I seriously doubt that there's another entity in our country that could care less about the environment than our government.

HollowPoint

[mdi]

FWIW, there are a few states that have banned lead fishing sinkers. Now you can buy tungsten sinkers for about $1.00 each...

[xacex]

They are probably getting higher velocities with a shorter barrel, but at the cost of range or drift. I can see the advantage for wound capability in a shorter rage role, or hardened targets, glass, steel doors ect. It may not be good for us, but it is worse for the combatants.

[JeffinNZ]

Well I think it's a good thing. After all, we wouldn't want someone to come to harm would we...........?

[John Boy]

I just read that the us military is going to shift to "green Bullets."
Josper, I wouldn't get to excited using the post words "is going to..." What your reading is a 2001 website adaptation based on a 2001 term paper:

Posted 11/24/01 by Robin Izzo Scott
URL: http://www.princeton.edu/~rmizzo/firingrange.htm
In addition, the only link that works on this old Princeton University website is an undated military STUDY published in 2000 ...
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/GreenBullets/GreenBullets.htm

So sit back and relax - this is NOT a current event that the military is going to as you stated!

The subject ties into the development and use of frangible bullets that has been kicked around for over 10 years

[Sasquatch-1]

I made up some green bullets just in the past month. I am getting ready to leave for the range now to shoot them up. They are swaged jacketed 240 grn .44 mag loaded with 7 grns of Unique. The green is a special paint that I got from lexluther.com and is made from Kryptonite and is guaranteed to work on Superman and Zombies. :bigsmyl2:

8060480605

[PB234]

The Navy is paying for expensive algae produced fuel to develop additional sources of fuel if things go very wrong. Currently the fuel is very expensive and purchased just to test if it works. If it becomes a source of fuel production would increase and the cost per gallon would decrease. The Air Force tried out some fuel made from turning coal into gas and the gas into liquid. Certainly not as inexpensive as buying some jet fuel, but a first step in protecting them from a situtation where conventional fuel becomes scarce.

The coal to liquid technology was developed by the Germans and used in WW2. Later it was used by S. Africa when there was an embargo. Currently China is developing significant coal to liquid capacity with the South African based oil company Sasol. It is a safety valve for when/if other sources of liquid fuels become scarce. In our country coal to gas production is limited because it produces green house gasses and we have not figured out a successful/economic way to deal with that.

We should be delighted our armed forces have the foresight to develop technologies to protect their ability to do their job and keep us safe. Sometimes these technologies even make it to the commercial sector. The chips in my laptop are decedents of the space program. Some of the materials we use every day like synthetic rubber are from the needs of WW2 when we could not get rubber.

Our armed forces are probably the best run part of our government with some of the best people we have on all levels from the guy risking his/her life to the guys running the show. We are all sitting here safe because of them.

[fcvan]

I have been following the 'bio-diesel from algae' thing for a number of years. Good stuff there, they have already made and tested jet fuel in a 747. The guy/company holding some patents on the bio reactor is financing his research by selling franchise rights to places like Australia. He is not seeking his funding from the government. A very interesting thing is the use of the bio reactors to sequester carbon dioxide from coal fired electric generation plants. Very promising indeed.

My dad told me long ago about a report he read. Diesel from coal would be cost effective 'once oil got above $38 a barrel.' Well, it passed that in 2003 but we still don't see it, do we. I'm sure our government, and the oil industry, aren't interested in competition.

Solar energy has always been of interest. Solar panels have become more efficient and less expensive over the years. With the economy of scale, more and more solar energy will be developed and generated.

Solar, wind, hydro, all good ideas. But green bullets for the military? Total bs. There is nothing more green than galena as it is the most recycled material on the planet, something on the order of 98% is recycled. Sure, lead poisoning is a concern, especially at indoor ranges. Total metal jackets, hytek, epoxy, or powder coated boolits deal with that concern.

The only reason for the military to develop a 'green bullet' is to drive the cost of ammo through the roof and adversely effect sportsmen. I can understand the military wanting to develop cartridges that are more effective on the battle field but I think they've already done a pretty good job with the assorted weapons systems already in service.

Developing a 'green bullet' is not as cost effective as developing a better bullet trap system for collecting and recycling the rounds sent down range. Wait, they've already got that technology. Obviously, it is the goal of 'green bullets' to do an end run on us boolit casters as well as recreational shooters.

[mdi]

Developing a 'green bullet' is not as cost effective as developing a better bullet trap system for collecting and recycling the rounds sent down range. Wait, they've already got that technology. Obviously, it is the goal of 'green bullets' to do an end run on us boolit casters as well as recreational shooters.[/QUOTE]

California has already attacked ammo/bullet use. In their "Buzzard Zone", lead bullets are banned...

[fcvan]

I hear you on the 'buzzard zone' BS. I grew up in Santa Barbara county, smack in the middle of condor country. I hiked through the Sespe Gorge Condor Sanctuary several times in the 1970s. The whole lead boolit thing is complete hooey but the Eco nazis got it pushed through anyway.

I recall reading of a young condor found dead in the past few years. Died of toxic metal poisoning after having ingested some galvanized nails, nuts, and bolts, but no lead. There's a reason some critters don't survive the process of natural selection.

[BAGTIC]

I doubt they are tungsten. They raw material is over $20 a pound. 'The green' sinkers I have seen have been zinc or steel. Foreign countries that have already adopted 'green' lead free bullets are using steel cores with a copper partial driving band resembling those used on steel artillery projectiles.

[BAGTIC]

The lead free military bullets will be inferior to existing lead core designs because of their lower specific gravities and sectional densities. About a 20% reduction in effective range.

Solar power? Wood produces many times a much electric power as does solar. Other biofuels such a trash, recycled waste such as tires, etc. produces about twice as much as wood. Since our largest use of power is home heating the most efficient way to save energy is to adopt higher insulation standards. The best way of all is to reduce population.

[MtGun44]

I have had a solar powered (all the electricity, at least) house in remote Colorado for more than 15 years.
I designed and built the house and solar system. I still will say - you have to be nuts to use solar power
for electricity if you can get mains power installed at a reasonable price. In my case, I was quoted
$34,000 to run the line to my place - so I designed and built my solar system. No reason you can't
do it in many places (not enough sun in some) and high altitude sunny Colorado is ideal. BUT - it is
entirely uneconomic compared to mains power. Of course, our current leaders are forcing the most
economical source of electrical power - coal - to be shut down on the phony claim that carbon
dioxide is a pollutant.

This makes as much sense as "green bullets", another misguided waste of money. The idea that
the military is smart to experiment with algael fuels and fuel from coal is quite misguided. Current
US production of petroleum is steadily INCREASING and will for the foreseeable future, certainly
into the retirement age of children born today. Wasting money on something that MIGHT be
useful in 70-80 or more years is stupid, just like worrying about lead in bullets is stupid. I can
JUST BARELY see the case for condors, although my opinion is that when the great migrating
herds were destroyed, the condor was toast and that it is just too bad, and not a particularly
big deal if it goes extinct. Do I want to wipe out the condors? Of course not, but at some
point the money should be spent for more sensible purposes. Ultimately, condors are done
as a species.

Most of the time - "green " means "costs more and functions poorly".

Bill

[josper]

I just did a search on military.com and the military Is using these bullets. The test show they are more effective than the lead core bullets. The green bullets penetrated a steel plate and the lead core did not

[IROCZ]

The last time I checked, a military bullet was supposed to be one thing, effective. Green is the new Red. Whenever you hear, green this or that or eco friendly you should look at the bigger picture. American ingenuity powered by inexpensive energy made us the worlds first super power. The eco weenies are doing nothing more than trying to take down the greatest country on the face of the planet, the greatest country this planet has ever known. It could not be done conventionally, they had to come in the back door. They are waging war on our technology and America at the same time. Global warming, climate change, carbon credits... All BS. This is war against civilization using our own "guilt". Europe, who chastises us for our greed and pollution was still running leaded gasoline into the late 90's as far as I know. I hope these improved bullets don't cost us greatly in the end.