1903 30-06 1000yds what mold!

[Dedley Accurate]

I am working on fulfilling a dream of hitting a 1000yd target with my 1903 Springfield, with bullets I've cast and loaded.

There is a much bigger story to it but ill not wast time on that right now.

What mold would you recommend for this shot and why. Please no guesses here, I am looking for an experienced, educated answer please. I don't mind discussion, I just don't want to be looking for the wrong mold.

[Wayne S]

I'd look ,1st at the NOE 247 gn. , then the Lee 230 gn. With the proper fit to the throat & bore, proper alloy and lube you should be able to drive either to 2300-2400 fps. With their high for cast bullets BC they should retain enough speed to make it to 1000 yds.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Agreed...

3rd option, 311284

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Agreed...

3rd option, 311284
they were using it a hundred years ago in the old '06.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I use the 311284 for my Garand and it has proven to be a winner at least in this rifle. Loaded down with Varget and a carnuba red lube by Lars (White Label Lubes) it is reliable and consistent out to 400 yds on steel gongs. Nothing better than firing off a clip of 8 and getting loud and clear clangs from the target at 400 yds. I would try at a longer distance but alas my range only goes out to 400 yds.

I confess to a major upgrade to my rifle. On the front I have a globe sight with a nice insert from Lyman and it makes a big difference for me and my 70 years old eyes.

[frnkeore]

What ever acceptable accuracy/speed you shoot the bullet at, it will get there. The thing that you have to consider is having enough verticle adjustment to sight it in.

BPCR matches are shot with high BC bullets in the 12/1300 fps range so, I wouldn't worry about speed, but more about accuracy.

The drop is about double, but the wind drift is 1" less between 1400 and 2400 fps. The wind drift is worst at 1900 fps, but only by 15" max. @ 1000 yards. Below figures are based on a BC of .33

2400fps
yards--terminal----drop----ToF---Wind drift
--------speed----------------------@ 10 mph

1000---917------744.24---2.26---172.06


1400fps
1000---773------1613.06--3.15---171.05

Note the terminal velocity difference between the two. The reason being how much time is spent supersonic. It takes a lot more energy to travel at SS speeds, thus the bullet slows faster.

Check it out:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

Frank

[Outpost75]

+1 on #311299, quenched wheelweights, Tamarack in grooves, Hornady GC, tumble overcoat all over with Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirit, 56 grs. 4831 with Federal 210M.

I have actually shot this load on the 1000-yard rifle deck at Quantico from an M1903 Springfield with long slide Lyman 48 rear and Lyman 17A front aperture. Granted, this was many years ago before the current decimal target was adopted in the late 1960s. Liquid Alox did not exist then, so we smeared Tamarack on the bullet nose with our fingers! I was able to hold the "5" ring on the old "C" target with enough "V"s to keep it interesting. Never chronographed the load, but from experience with similar charges with the WCC58 white box 200-gr. Super Match FMJ bullets, it was probably approaching 2400 fps.

Accuracy was not up to current match standards, but better than Cal. APM2 available to is at the time and nearly as good as 174-grain Ball M1 made in the 1930s, which was essentially 2 moa ammo out of the Springfield. I expect the cast loads were in the order of 2-1/2 to 3 minutes, which isn't all that bad for old technology.

[Argentino]

I am working on fulfilling a dream of hitting a 1000yd target with my 1903 Springfield, with bullets I've cast and loaded.

There is a much bigger story to it but ill not wast time on that right now.

What mold would you recommend for this shot and why. Please no guesses here, I am looking for an experienced, educated answer please. I don't mind discussion, I just don't want to be looking for the wrong mold.

You may want to take a look at this guy´s video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNHJjqZxpwQ

1000 yards steel plate from a 03-A3 using soft lead-Lyman 311299 paper patched boolits.

Interesting results IMHO.

[Wayne S]

If you will do a search on the NOE 311247, the original start up post is many pages long, somewhere in there are several posts listing stability programs regarding the stability of the 311247. here is one http://http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Take what they say with a grain of salt. ALL of the bullets listed should do the job, the ones with the slightly more streamlined noses should shoot a little flatter than the RN's. The heavier ones should buck the wind better and don't forget the RCBS 200 Sil..
Go to the "bullet exchange" section of the classifieds and ask to buy 25-50 of the designs you are really interested in. Specify either "as cast" or sized to the Dia. of your throat, based on a slugging or cerosafe casting of your chamber. DO NOT to forget to thank those that send you bullets free in open forum

[madsenshooter]

I'd go with the NOE 311365, it has to have the highest BC of any cast 30cal bullet.

[Win94ae]

I'd go with the NOE 311365, it has to have the highest BC of any cast 30cal bullet.

I've got to get me that mold!
Thanks for bringing it to my/our attention.

[Wayne S]

I've got to get me that mold!
Thanks for bringing it to my/our attention. You should beg, borrow or what ever to get some of these to try before buying a mold. In my M1A, and a 15" Contender the 311299 shoots at least 50 % smaller groups

[frnkeore]

My recommendation is to first find accuarte load at 200 - 300 yards with the 311299 bullet. The whisper and 311365 bullets can be problematic for accuracy, especially at higher velocitys.

A good 300 yard, '06 load is 19 - 20 gr 4759 with pistol primers and no wads or fillers. It holds the CBA 300 yard record group. I think when you get to 300, you'll be out of or very close to having no elevation adjustment left.

Frank

[Jack Stanley]

I agree with the guys using the 311299 and that would be my choice if my 314299 didn't work better for me . It drops from the mold at .312" and the 311299 drops at .316 .... go figure huh? The nose of my 314 is at .3015" or so and I have clocked it at over twenty-three hundred feet per second from my A3 rifle . Better eyes that mine can put this ammo into groups better than most lots of ball ammo .

I've never paper patched but that idea has some good merit I would think .

Jack

[Wayne S]

You may want to take a look at this guy´s video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNHJjqZxpwQ

1000 yards steel plate from a 03-A3 using soft lead-Lyman 311299 paper patched boolits.

Interesting results IMHO.
Watched this a few times recalling the elevation of the muzzle, then a flash back of a term herd at all FSB's in SE Asia, FIRE FOR EFFECT

[Bob S]

Elevation .... the original 30-03 sight ladder was marked to 2400 yards, so if you can get a 200+ grain bullet to shoot well at 2000 fps or a little higher, you should have plenty of elevation for 1000 yards if you are using the issue rear sight. The most significant problem will be wind. There used to be 2ft-wide "wings" on the 1000 yard Charley target because of this. They don't use them on the modern LR target.

My "Bob S load" of 311284 with 42 grains of old 4831 gets very close to 2000 fps, and shot very accurately with manageable wind drift at 300 yards. I never used it at any longer range, because it would not be competitive in NMC shooting; and my M1 probably probably would have run out of useable elevation, andway. If I was going to try this, I think I would use the 311 or 314299 and 45 grains of 4831 to start. Larry G convinced me that this bullet will do better at ranges past 300. YMMV ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Larry Gibson]

Shot a lot of 311284's and 311299's out of M1903's and 'A3's at 500 and 600 yards. Getting a load with either bullet that is fast enough to stay sonic and yet accurate given the velocity/RPM required is difficult. When I get around to shooting cast out of my M1903 National Match Type II at 1000 yards will probably be with a PP'd cast bullet. I prefer success even if hard to achieve to total frustration.

BTW; a Lyman 48 long slide should have enough elevation. The M1903 rear sight definitely does.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

I believe that all the suggestions are good, and worth trying. That said, would hope you will post on your results
1shirt!

[GabbyM]

Just in case you don't have a Lyman book handy.
Published ballistic coefficient of the 311299 is .377.
Using that B.C. value in a ballistic program makes it look pretty hard to get to 1000 yards and stay super sonic.
I've never tried to hit 1,000 yard target with a bullet that transitioned into sub sonic so don't know haw hard that would be.
I seam to recall reading the boat-tail bullets have more problems than flat based bullets.

Some of us here are playing around with a little copper in our alloy along with water quench hardening to get more velocity. Personally I've been laid up this summer and not done much shooting. I'm healed up from surgery now and ready for harvest and the game.

[FAsmus]

Dedley;

I have some experience at shooting the 30'06 at long range with cast bullets.

I have found that, as other members have mentioned, that it is tough to keep a cast bullet super-sonic that far out. Not only that, even if you are successful at shooting fast (2000 + ft/sec) the little 30 caliber pills simply drift a lot if the wind gets up at all beyond 700 yards ~ and heaven help you if it huffs and puffs erratically!

Here at my place we have silhouettes placed from 350 on out to 834 - the 1000 is there but seldom used due to conflicting fields of fire with other portions of our facility.

My loads in the 30'06 are pretty much all with a heat-treated RCBS 30-180-SP. This bullet does very well and I can push it to 2000 ft/sec reliably; MOA in my 2-groove Enfield with the Redfield receiver sight @ 670 on a calm day and it does right well at the 834 yard distance in favorable conditions too.

Still, if it gets above 10 - 12 MPH the bullets move start moving around in a serious way. I've seen 10 or 12 feet of drift at the 834 distance ~ and the slightest change puts you off one side or the other.

The 1000 is the "supreme test" for small arms, let alone cast in a 30 caliber.

Good fortune to you.
Forrest

[Blammer]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/File0153.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/File0153.jpg.html)

may want to look at this. :)
yea, that's 5 shots with one I botched.
it's the 311365 out of my rem 700 30-06

[Blammer]

I'm sure with a little more playing I could get the velocity up and keep accuracy.

[Wayne S]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/File0153.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/File0153.jpg.html)

may want to look at this. :)
yea, that's 5 shots with one I botched.
it's the 311365 out of my rem 700 30-06
I'm guessing that load is going about 1900-2000 FPS. I'll have to revisit BruceB, M1A testing for a load for a 200 gn bullet at 1900-2000 ???

[FAsmus]

Blammer:

Just curious here - you pasted a 50 yard target on a 1000 yard thread for some reason? I'm mystified.

Forrest

[Wayne S]

Blammer:

Just curious here - you pasted a 50 yard target on a 1000 yard thread for some reason? I'm mystified.

Forrest
My guess is that;
1. I question the accuracy potential of the 311365 he was posting to show that there is some potential , and, OR,
2. Since the 311365 has the highest BC of the 195-210 cast bullets it might be worth looking at ??

[Wayne S]

O P started this 22:55 on the 28th , looks like he's MIA ??

[Win94ae]

O P started this 22:55 on the 28th , looks like he's MIA ??

I am sure there are others just like me that are interested in the thread... especially interested in seeing more results with the 311365.

[Blammer]

My guess is that;
1. I question the accuracy potential of the 311365 he was posting to show that there is some potential , and, OR,
2. Since the 311365 has the highest BC of the 195-210 cast bullets it might be worth looking at ??

right on both accounts.

[Bob S]

Remaining supersonic is not as critical for a round nose flat base bullet as it is with a pointy boattail. The Krag with M1898 ball ammunition (220 gr RN @ 2000 fps) was a very effective 1000 yard combination, and in fact would out-shoot the "New Springfield" at that distance. There were a lot of unhappy old shooters when the Krag was no longer allowed in the Service Rifle category in the Leech Cup match.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Remaining supersonic is not as critical for a round nose flat base bullet as it is with a pointy boattail. The Krag with M1898 ball ammunition (220 gr RN @ 2000 fps) was a very effective 1000 yard combination, and in fact would out-shoot the "New Springfield" at that distance. There were a lot of unhappy old shooters when the Krag was no longer allowed in the Service Rifle category in the Leech Cup match.

Resp'y,
Bob S.


And there were a lot of unhappy old shooters when the Garand showed up.

And when the M-14 showed up.

And when those accursed black plastic guns showed up.

"Unhappy old shooters" are a constant in the sport.

As to the original post, Cast at a thousand might not win trophies, but I imagine it will be fun, and that counts for a lot.

dale in Louisiana
(One of the "What you doin' here with THAT old thing" guys)

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Having been there and done that I have this to offer;

The 30 caliber, shooting cast bullets (except perhaps for PP @ 2600+ or so) cannot shoot with the venerable old black powder cartridges at 1000 yards. (Shooting black or smokeless by the way - I do not play favorites)

This, as you see, is a pretty firm statement ~ but really ~ I have sat side-by side with my stroked and cultivated bull-barrel M70 30'06, same day, same conditions with the typical 45/90 singleshot shooter out there in the wind. His windage compensation was about half or less than half of what I had to add to my sight setting in the same exact condition in order to get hits at 875 yards in considerable wind - just short of making our spotting scopes vibrate too much for reliable shot spotting as I recall.

As you can see; this means that in any change, (usually an invisible change in the wind) he could either not move at all and still get a hit or move much less than I had to and thus be in better shape for the next change..

Look at this quote from member "Frnkeore" from his understanding of BPCR shooting:

The drop is about double in BPCR compared to bottleneck high velocity, but the wind drift is 1" less between 1400 and 2400 fps. The wind drift is worst at 1900 fps, but only by 15" max. @ 1000 yards. Below figures are based on a BC of .33

2400fps
yards--terminal----drop----Time of Flight---Wind drift
--------wind speed------------------@ 10 mph

1000---917------744.24---2.26---172.06

1400fps

1000---773------1613.06--3.15---171.05

Note the terminal velocity difference between the two. The reason being how much time is spent supersonic. It takes a lot more energy to travel at SS speeds, thus the bullet slows faster.

End Quote.

He was referring to actual ballistic facts of life - that is big slow-movers are better at long range shooting than mid-speed smallbore. He used 2400 ft/sec for his smallbore comparison and this is obtainable with PP, but more difficult with a grease-groove bullet. Usually we stop around 2000 - 2100 before things tend to get tough at the greater speeds

Frnkeore did not mention why bigger diameter bullets are better so, just in passing I'll mention that the supersonic bullets slow more rapidly not only because they're faster, but also because the bigger bullets have less surface area for a given sectional density. Putting it simply - the less surface area - the less drag. The less drag, the less drift!

This is why, if you can stand it, you're better off shooting a 50/90 with a 700 grain bullet at 1300 ft/sec than a 30'06 running along a 200 grain at a little over 2000 ft/sec at the 1000 yard distance.

I have done it both ways. There is no doubt about these ballistic facts of life.

The only way out for smallbore shooting at 1000 is to shoot jacketed bullets really fast liken to the over-bore magnums in 6.5mm (or whatever happens to be hot right now ..) Then of course you're in a different ball game.

None-the-less I heartily enjoy shooting smallbore 30s at long range. It is more challenging than a Big Fifty but much less painful.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[45 2.1]

He was referring to actual ballistic facts of life - that is big slow-movers are better at long range shooting than mid-speed smallbore. He used 2400 ft/sec for his smallbore comparison and this is obtainable with PP, but more difficult with a grease-groove bullet. Usually we stop around 2000 - 2100 before things tend to get tough at the greater speeds

Good afternoon,
Forrest

The NRA has published (and Wolfe compiled those in a softback book) many articles of people shooting mid to heavy weight boolits in the 30 calibers and 8x57 into the mid 2200 fps range....... about 30 years ago or more now. Many folks since then have learned to go quite a bit higher than that. Self imposed limits only effect those who believe what they've read and won't try any harder. State of the Art then and now are completely different.

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, state of the art for sure.........

Exactly why we see all those winners of the National Match Course and Palma matches who use cast bullets..........

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Larry and 45;

Go ahead - I'm interested for sure ~ say more about the need for speed in 30 and how to attain it.

And, please remind me what the longest distance is on the Palma & National Match Course?

Good evening,
Forrest

[Larry Gibson]

600 yard on the NMC. 1000 yards on the Palma Match.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

We're talking about cast boolits Larry.... remember which forum you're on?

Forrest... with the 30-06 size combustion chamber and that long barrel, you have the room to use a slower powder (those cheap 50 caliber surplus powders work fine) to increase the velocity and keep the pressure relatively in the same range. Most conventional loading techniques fail at the point you're at. A close neck fit, along with some other things, with your present set up will help a lot.

[FAsmus]

45x2.1:

Thanks for the post.

I have some 50 BMG powder and some 20mm canon powder. So far all I've seen is marginal to uninteresting accuracy and light leading from breech to muzzle ~ especially with duplex loads.

By "neck fit" I take it that when shooting strictly neck-sized loads the neck clearance on a loaded round should be kept to a minimum. ~ How close is "close"?

I know that sharing specific loading information is not encouraged here. ~ Any chance of a a PM?

Good evening,
Forrest

[45 2.1]

PM submitted to you Forrest...............

[Larry Gibson]

Well aware what forum this is and, in case you forgot, this thread is about shooting cast bullets out of a M1903 '06 at 1000 yards.

Forrest

You already understand the slow 50 BMG powders mentioned don't work. They won't develop sufficient psi to burn efficiently in the '06 case or give sufficient velocity for 1000 yard shooting. For successful 1000 yard shooting with a M1903 '06 you will need a bullet with a sufficient BC and velocity to remain sonic to the said 1000 yards. If we expect accuracy at 1000 yards accuracy must be present at shorter ranges of 100, 200 and range to 1000 yards. Expansion of group size must be linear as the range increases also. However, accuracy at shorter ranges than 1000 yards, even if excellent, is no guarantee of accuracy at 1000 yards if the bullets do not remain sonic.

Getting a cast bullet with accuracy at sufficient velocity with a high enough BC out of the 10" twist of M1903 is the challenge.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Larry, quite a reply there. I think you need to reread what he said in post #22 (among others) as many times as it takes for you to understand what he said..................... not what you posted above.

[Larry Gibson]

Alright bob, I reread #22. There is nothing inconsistent with my answer above and Forrest's post #22. However, you might consider as inconsistent your recommendation to use powders that do not meet his requirements as outlined in posts #s 1 & 22.

What is required to shoot a cast bullet accurately at 1000 yards and the requirements of the needed cast bullet have been answered. I'll leave the wizardry to you.

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Larry;

Roger your comments about shooting the best BC bullet a fellow can stabilize and shoot accurately at an (so far) unspecified muzzle velocity. ~ We know that stuff.

My question is and remains: What is your solution? I really am interested.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Larry Gibson]

As I mentioned earlier PPing is probably my solution. However i'm looking at trying the heavier Aladin SP if I can find a mould. If it doesn't work as cast then I'll try it PP'd along with the Lyman 200 gr PP bullet. ..if I can find one of those.....

Other than the above there just isn't currently a good cast bullet design with a high enough BC for the velocity necessary to hold sonic to 1000 yards out of a 10" twist '06 M1903. All the wizardry in the world trying to turn lead into gold not with standing.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

For successful 1000 yard shooting with a M1903 '06 you will need a bullet with a sufficient BC and velocity to remain sonic to the said 1000 yards.

I'm going to assume here that Larry means supersonic (son·ic, adj. Of, relating to, or determined by audible sound.), but I fail to see the validity of his statement. It matters not the rifle shot, either. Realitive accuracy can be had at any velocity (even trans sonic). What matters most with long range shooting is wind drift and the accuracy of the load.

I know of no match quality loads, shot fixed with bullets of a BC of .400 or more. The 311/314299 is by far the most used match quaility bullet used in CBA competition with a BC of .377. I've never seen a 311329 or a 311365 win a match, ever! Most people that use those bullets, never get match accuracy at even 100 yards, especially at anything near 2000 fps. I would guess that you'd never find a hit at 1000 yards trying to use one of those bullet and I know of no higher GCed, BC bullets than those. High BC non bore riding bullets usually will shoot better at lower velocity and thus, I suggest doing it that way. As shown in my other post, it has a wind drift advantage and as shown by BPCR results, lower velocity accuracy is proven.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

Apparently you've never actually shot long range and observed the inaccuracy caused by the bullet dropping down through the "sound barrier"? The loss of accuracy from that is not related to wind drift or initial accuracy.

No comment on the rest of your post as it fully supports my last post, well said.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

My competitors and myself, deal with trans sonic, all the time. We shoot 200 yards at + - 1400 fps. What happens to a trans sonic bullet at that range is that it tips, like the twist is to slow. What happens in LR shooting is that tipping causes a big drop in the BC until it re-stablizes causing additional wind drift.

I have seen some very good scores shot as the bullet goes through the target in this range so, it's does not necessarily cause inaccuracy.

Frank

[FAsmus]

Larry & Frank;

I've dealt with the transition of bullet velocity from supersonic to subsonic a good deal.

My understanding from an aviation background is that transition from the fast to the slow is the area of greatest aerodynamic drag and therefore the greatest wind drift. In flying it used to be called "The Sound Barrier" ~ and it is real.

Here at my range altitude of 4000 ft and in summer temperatures the speed of sound is not the same as at sea level on a "standard day" of 59 degrees F @ 29.92 hg and RH of 50% where it goes around 1150 ft/sec. Nope!

On the typical summer day of say 80 degrees @4000 ft pressure altitude, Density Altitude (pressure altitude corrected for non-standard temperature) runs around 6500 ft or slightly more. This brings the speed of sound down to something like 900 ft/sec simply because the air is less dense. ~ Pretty darn slow! Like too slow to think about keeping muzzle velocity that low or even as low as 1150 ft/sec. The bullets would never stabilize for one thing.

Frank, your 1400 ft/sec shooting @ 200 yards pretty much keeps you out of trans-sonic trouble. My shooting in 30'06 at 18 - 1900 keeps me in the clear on to around 6 - 700 yards.

Larry's idea, yet to be verified over the distance, is to PP a 200+ grains cast bullet and push them to 2500 or 2600 if he can get there with accuracy, then go for the 1000. Good fortune to you.

Good morning,
Forrest

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
The starting velocity is 1400 fps, not the terminal velocity. A typical load would be a .3 BC ( nose pour Hoch type bullet) with a terminal velocity of 1108. Trans sonic occures both above 1120 fps (@ sea level) and below. My shooting elevation is approx. 1450 above sea level. I use spitzer bullets with around .4 BC's or better and try to find loads of around 1450+ fps giving terminal velocitys in the 1200 fps range, still VERY close to the upper trans sonic range at my elevation and with a few odd ES, I can drop right in there.

We shoot in the very worth possible velocity range for both wind drift and trans sonic problems. The reason for that is that we can only shoot plain base bullets.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

You might want to go back to the beginning of this thread and read the title and then the question in the first post. The question is about 1000 yard shooting with a M1903 '06 which has a 10" twist. Your example of the 32-40 with a 14" twist is not relevant. Consider at 1000 yards the high angle of incidence as a bulet comes down. The buffeting the bullet gets coming down through the sonic barrier is severe especially with the bullets nose up. Even the best of the most aerodynamic bullets lose accuracy during that transition. Every long range shooter understands this.

Be best if your heartburn with me didn't get in the way of facts. Do a little research on the topic and you'll get the facts confirming what Forrest and I are discussing. I've no doubt you probably know something positive to add instead of negative and irrelevant information. This has been a good and informative thread. Lets not lead it astray, ok?

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

What I have to add is a close corollary to the above conversation even though it deals mostly with jacketed bullets in the 308/7.62 NATO at 1,000 yards. Ballistics is ballistics and a projectile's performance at range is governed by its velocity, sectional density, ballistic coefficient, uniformity and its structural strength.

In the early to mid 1980s, the goal of National Match and long range shooters was to improve upon the LC M118 Match load and the later M118 Special Ball load at long range. Both of these loads (same other than powder and case) used the 173 grain 30 cal match bullet and kept the projectile supersonic through 1,000 yards, but the quality of the projectile did not produce the accuracy needed to shoot competitively at the state, regional or national levels unless it was the required round as in the military matches and the matches at Camp Perry for the service rifles.

Civilian shooters, not constrained by military requirements in ammo, wanted something more accurate at 1,000 yards in the 308 and used the 168 gr SMK and the 180 gr SMK, but the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester could not keep them supersonic at 1,000 yards as the 168 SMK didn't have the BC for it at top velocities and the 180 gr MK didn't start fast enough out of the 7.62/308 to get to 1,000 yards while still supersonic.

Now the 168 and 180 grain Sierra Match Kings have a much better ballistic coefficient than any cast bullet in 30 calibre is going to have and they could be launched at the highest velocity possible in a 24" match rifle barrel in 7.62/308 but they were still not getting there fast enough to stay supersonic. If they can not reliably get there without going sonic or sub-sonic, then I'm thinking that a cast bullet remaining supersonic at 1,000 yards might just be more than we can reasonably expect. For the average loader perhaps a bridge too far.

Having shot extensively at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards in competition and slightly farther tactically I can attest to the sudden decrease in accuracy of a 30 calibre projectile dropping through the "sound barrier" and into the sonic or subsonic regimes of its flight. If you wish to research it further, you can look for the three part series produced by the NRA for high-power shooters in the early 80s. I believe Creighton Audet wrote the article "You Can't Get There from Here" in the third part of the series that gives very good insight into getting bullets to a thousand yards efficiently.

The solution for 30 calibre shooters in the 1990s was when Sierra came up with the super-slick-spitzer-boat-tailed 175 grain Match King. It closely follows the lines and weight of the old M1 ball projectile loaded for the 1903 Springfield as adopted in 1906 and used in WW I and which was basically the same bullet used in the original LC M118 Match and the Special Ball load for indirect MG fire and sniper use. The Army started loading this new 175 grain projectile into the M118 LR (long range) load that is now issued for the M-24 Sniper Weapon System (SWC) and subsequent sniper rifles in 7.62 NATO calibre such as the SR-25 in order to increase the effective range of the systems.

My point in the above diatribe? Some bullets can and some bullets can't get there from here in the manner that we want. I don't think anyone will argue that a jacketed bullet can't be driven harder than even a paper patched linotype boolit in either the 308 or the 30/06 and yet most jacketed bullets, in the 308 anyway, won't get to a thousand yards without going sonic or subsonic. I think we can safely say that this is also the case for cast boolits, even from the 30/06.

The "sonic" disruption of the bullet is real and will probably always be a factor in getting your 30 cal cast boolits to a target accurately a thousand yards away and that is probably the reason, as noted in a previous post, why cast boolits are not used in long range competition against jacketed bullets.

That all said, we don't need to hit paper with a supersonic projectile if we're just having fun and we understand the challenges of trajectory and wind deflection with what is arguably a "challenged" bullet at that distance. If I were trying to do this I think that I would look for the longest and heaviest cast boolit design that I could find, and as mentioned by many already, in a paper patch design and then cast it from linotype to make it as structurally strong as possible.

[frnkeore]

Larry, Larry, Larry,
I'm sorry, this isn't about you :)

The question was brought up as to what happens in trans sonic flight (BTW, the OP is MIA. So this has become a how best to attain accuracy at LR) and still realvent to the OP's post.


The buffeting the bullet gets coming down through the sonic barrier is severe especially with the bullets nose up. Even the best of the most aerodynamic bullets lose accuracy during that transition. Every long range shooter understands this.

If your taking about Palma matches, that is simply not true. 308's at 1000 yd have terminal velocitys of approx. 1287 fps for the sierra 190 and 1348 for the 168. The 190 is well with in the upper trans sonic range and the 168 just out of it. The angle of departure is only about .6 deg for both loads, not exactly nose up. So accuracy can be excellent in trans sonic in the Palma matches.

Now with a 311299 at 2200 fps, the bullet spends quite a bit of time in the trans sonic zone, from about 550 to 800 yds at 1.22 deg, nose up attitude. Though I don't know if programs allow for for the wobbley trans sonic fight and maybe not for the nose up attitude, it has to kill the BC quite a bit. It's traveling a long time in that area. Hince my original suggestion to shoot at approx. 1400 fps. At 1400 the bullet will travel the last 500 yds subsonic, plenty of time to be well stabilized when it hits the target and less than 500 fps lower velocity than the 190 gr SBT that started at 2500 fps.

While there could be some advange in traveling the full distance super sonic, you'll never get a cast bullet there at that speed, with any accuracy.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Check the facts Frank, you're out in left field........

The Palma Match (original international rules) requires bullets of 145 - 155 gr.....not 190 or 168 gr. The current US rules allow .308W and 5.56 NATO with any bullet weight. Even then the bullets of either of those transitioning subsonic are adversely affected. Best you also recheck that angle of departure. Please get the facts straight. ....

However, let's give you the benefit of the doubts. ....how many cast bullets out of a M1903 or even your 32-40 have you shot on target at 1000 yards? At 600 yards? Or are sitting there plaing with computer programs?

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

There you go again, Larry. I would suggest that you check out the facts, while I'm not a long range shooter, I have shot in practice prone, with the High Power guys at 600 yards, here at the White City, OR range (old ww2, Camp White Range) with the rifle your see pictured in my Avatar, a 30/40 chambered A&M barreled High Wall. I do deal with trans sonic shooting at least every month or more. That I do know about!

But, I also follow German Salizar's writings on long range match shooting, a regular winner in the 300 - 1000 yard matches.

Actual real world testing of the Palma in a 15 round test.
Sierra 155 Palma
1500 / 0.380
2000 / 0.418
2500 / 0.428
3000 / 0.442
Average:0.417
*Sierra advertises an average BC G1 of 0.437 for this bullet for all speeds (+5% error).
Actual article, below.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/S155grPALMAbullet.pdf

Terminal velocity with this bullet is even lower than the 190 gr Sierra Match. the Plama bullet starts @2900 fps and gets there @ 1218 fps.

Angle of departure is 37.268 minutes or .621 degrees.

I don't shoot BPCR or the NRA BP class but, maybe someone from those disciplines will chime in and offer some enlightenment on 600 - 1000 yard low velocity shooting.

As for your other remark about me actually shooting. I shoot cast bullets in shoulder to shoulder matches EVERY month @ 200 yards from March - October and practice once or twice each month, also!

When was the last organized, shoulder to shoulder match that you shot? Long range or short?

Frank

[frnkeore]

Larry, I'm here trying to help people determine what it takes for accurate LR shooting with cast bullets and show that it doesn't take high velocity to attain it. The laws of physics apply here and the programs are used by experianced LR shooters such as German Salazar. He uses and cites thoughs programs and that's how I found them.

If you have actually done HV LR cast accurately, it tell us how it's done. Do you shoot at trans sonic velocitys and see the results on the target? I on the other hand know what bullets do in the trans sonic range and the groups and a few of the people that actually shoot 1000 yards. Their loads are mostly (after 200 yards) traveling in the subsonic range, where wind drift is less and it's easier to get accuracy than trying to shoot cast at 2700+. A area that I don't not think ANYONE has been sucessful at.

I relalize that a lot of people can't wrap their head around the fact that low velocity can be both accurate and have less wind drift than the much higher cast GC velocitys but, it's true!

Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank;

Yes, I've been there in the scheutzen game too - long ago at Coors. ~ I know how that shooting is done and a pretty good idea of what works.

Your information about loads and so forth make perfect sense for the shooting done at those distances. But I hope you will agree that shooting the 1000 is not really the same thing ~

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Frank;

You say: Though I don't know if programs allow for for the wobbly trans sonic fight and maybe not for the nose up attitude, it has to kill the BC quite a bit. It's traveling a long time in that area. Hinse my original suggestion to shoot at approx. 1400 fps. At 1400 the bullet will travel the last 500 yds subsonic, plenty of time to be well stabilized when it hits the target and less than 500 fps lower velocity than the 190 gr SBT that started at 2500 fps.

While there could be some advantage in traveling the full distance super sonic, you'll never get a cast bullet there at that speed, with any accuracy.

Forrest: Have you ever tried that kind of a 30 caliber load at 1000 yards - or even at 800? If so please tell us what you found when shooting in any kind of wind.

I know it semi-sounds interesting perhaps on some kind of soft-wear that produces numbers that seem encouraging but the little 30 caliber pills simply won't perform well at distance in any kind of 'interesting" condition. You'll find yourself off one side and then the other as conditions change only slightly.

Meanwhile the fellow next to you with his 50/90 and a 700 grain plain-base bullet will enjoy consistent hits - even as he grunts in pain every time he fires a shot..

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Frank;

This thread is digressing a bit far from the original request for a mold to shoot the 1000 in 30'06.

I will simply state that I have entered and won two 1000 yard matches with a 50/90SS and the 700 grain Jones bullet @1350 ft/sec MV. It works for the reasons I have stated previously - But that is really neither here or there.

The question is how to get reasonably reliable results in 30 caliber cast bullet shooting at long range.

In my current cast bullet shooting off the cross-stick rest in 30'06 and 7mm Mauser I have found loads that are consistent enough to provide reliable hits all the way out there to 1000. But be advised! Seeing hits (or misses) with a 30 or 7mm that far way is not easy!

I cannot stay with a good shot with his 45/90 with my groomed and treasured M70 30'06 but I can come close! (I did beat him several times in the 1000 with the Big Fifty) Especially if the wind is either steady or nearly calm the 30'06 will do well. (iron sights all)

My shooting partner complains now and then of the sharpness of my rifle's report. ~ I know the bullets are getting out there quite smartly but I have not bothered (so far) to chronograph the loads that work best. ~ I think that because of participation in this thread that I'll pack the clock up to the range tomorrow and share the results with the membership.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Win94ae]

...My shooting partner complains now and then of the sharpness of my rifle's report. ~ I know the bullets are getting out there quite smartly but I have not bothered (so far) to chronograph the loads that work best. ~ I think that because of participation in this thread that I'll pack the clock up to the range tomorrow and share the results with the membership.

Good evening,
Forrest

I will be eagerly awaiting that post.

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
You say that the only reason that PB low velocity bullets can be shot accurately with less wind drift to 1000 yards is because they are large caliber. Can you please explain scientifically why a BC in a large caliber can do what a equal BC in a smaller caliber can't? I have never heard of such a thing. If it were in terms of killing power or penetration, I would agree.

One other thing....... have you actually tried shooting a 30 cal at that range at lower velocity?

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

Good to see you do a lot of computer ballistic comparisons and follow Mr. Salazar’s 300-1000 yard shooting. Do the computer programs you use have data input for the bullets during the transition from sonic to subsonic phase? Thought not as neither do any on mine or any I’ve seen or heard about. Fascinating how your programs tell you what works and doesn’t during that transition……..My knowledge comes from having shot long range for 40+ years and observing the adverse affects of that transition.

Many years ago before the decimal targets for the NMC the targets used were 5V. The Match M1s were the “in” thing, many still used M1903s and the M14 was the very rarely seen new kid on the block. Many M1903 shooters used cast bullets, especially for the 100, 200 or 300 yard reduced courses. A few daring souls used them at the actual 600 yards range, mostly with 311284s and most often their scores were not up to their skill level so most still used jacketed bullets at that range. Most shooters had a hard time understanding why their loads shot 2 moa at 300 yards but barely held the target board at 600 yards. The target pullers in the pits noticed the holes were showing signs of the bullets tipping and the bullets did not “crack” over head.

Then 311299 came in vogue and scores improved enough because wit would hold 2 moa at 600 yards that many in expert class and below were using the 311299 at 600 yards also. The target pullers noticed nice round holes and the bullets “cracked” overhead. Simple explanation is the 311299s had gone subsonic and lost accuracy and the 311299s didn’t.

The new kid on the block took over with the M14 as a “Service Rifle”, 7.62 NATO/.308W became the in cartridge. New accuracy records demanded a new target and the decimal target was born. The M1903 was no longer a Service Rifle and cast bullet use for match shooting at 600 yards went the way of the dinosaurs. A few diehards continued to use them in reduced course though. Then the 168 MK became the darling for the 7.62 NATO in the M14 at 2550 – 2600 fps. Worked marvelously “across the course” and set all sorts of service rifle and match rifle records. Problem was when it was used in 1000 yard matches it was found the 168 MK went subsonic between 800 – 900 yards and accuracy went south. Most all match shooters back “in the day” went back to M118or used 180 gr MKs in reloads for 1000 yard matches because they stayed sonic to 1000 yards and held their accuracy.

In the early ‘70s there was a group of us who still had 5V targets and held informal old NMC matches with the M1903 still considered a service rifle. I thoroughly tested 311284s and 311299s out of numerous M1903s, ‘03A1s, ‘03A3s and even 4 M1903A4s at 600 yards. I also chronographed the successful loads in ’75 when I got my 1st Oehler chronograph. Elevation there was 4000 ft. I found that it took 2200+ fps (closer to 2300 fps) for the 311284 to stay sonic at 600 yards. However, pushed to that velocity/RPM accuracy was never good enough for even 5V match shooting at even the Marksman level score wise. However the 311299 when pushed to 2150 fps would just stay sonic and would produce low end expert level scores. Pushing the bullet faster only produce worse accuracy and lower scores.

Now on the other end of the spectrum I’ve also been shooting Trapdoor 45-70s for many a year with both smokeless and BP loads. Just a couple months ago I was shooting my H&R OM at 800 yards (range finder) and was hitting a 2 ½ ft rock more often than not. I’ve shot my target TD to 1000 yards numerous times. I do understand the dynamics of larger bullets seemingly transition subsonic and hold accuracy much better. Addionally I’ve done a lot of shooting of a 275 gr cast at 1050 fps out to 500+ yards with excellent accuracy…

Now the last few organized matches I’ve shot in were a 600 yard 60 shot for record belly match and a couple 300/600 yard reduced belly matches in the last 18 months. I shot a 576 with 29 X on the 600 yarder and 580+ on the reduced. I used my M1903A1 National Match Type II on the 600 yarder and of the 300 yard matches and my M70 target on other. I no longer shoot NMC because my eyes won’t let me see the front sight on an AR service rifle and the target at the same time………. However, I still shoot my Match M1A and numerous milsurp rifles out to as far as I want which is usually 600 – 1400 yards (one of the benefits of living in the wild west is all the BLM land available) for such. Just last month in eastern Oregon I was shooting some decent SF 80 185 fmjbt’s at 2600 fps out of a M1909 Argentine at 600 – 1000 meters using the rear sight settings (yes the rifle is zeroed at the lowest sight setting of 300 meters with that ammo). I’ve been shooting my 45 Colt M1873 carbine a lot at 200 yards but those loads start subsonic…….

Now if you want to go back farther than my many years shooting high power we can discuss my many years as an SF Weapons NCO which included a lot of sniper and long range shooting with all sorts of rifles around the world. However I don’t think we have the room here. Someone earlier in another thread mentioned someone who was a sniper and forgot more than we’ll ever know………I seriously doubt that because I’ve been doing that kind of shooting for a long, long time.

Now then, since you’re handy at the computer ballistic programs how about computing the 1000 yard elevation requirements for a 311299 starting off at 1400 fps on a M1903/M1903A1 rear sight if the 100 yard zero is already at the 800 yards slide range? Question is; with your idea of the best load is Forrest going to have enough sight elevation if your load works? And I might add in case you’ve not really shot a M1903 with the slide way up there it does not allow a spot or cheek weld that is conducive to good accuracy at 100 yards let alone 1000 yards.

BTW; what were your 600 yard scores with the 32-40? But ya know what Frank, enough of this tit for tat.....many of us here have told you what really happens when bullets dop subsonic. Your computer programs won't tell you that. So why don't you grab a M1903 with some 311284s, 311299s and your slick .4+ BC PB'd cast and go shoot them all at 600 and 1000 yards and then come back when you have some real practical experience and we can discuss reality instead of hypothetical computer ballistics that doesn't compute what we're discussing?

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Frank;

I do not have the capability to calculate BC for the bullets I shoot.

I do know for a fact that the reason large caliber bullets shoot better, that is with less drift than a smallbore bullet with the same sectional density, is because surface area increases less for the given SD the bigger you go. As I indicated before in this thread; less surface area = less drag = less wind drift.

Then, "scientifically" or not I have fired in the same condition with fellows on the line at long range. Me with my 30'06, they with their 45s. After a relay in moderate wind is complete we have compared sight settings, finding that my windage is always nearly twice what they have dialed in at any range beyond, say, 650 yards.

If you can calculate the BC for RCBS 30-180-SP @ 190 grains and compare it to a good Postell design 45 @ 535 grains it would be interesting.

Further, I do not say that smallbore bullets are "less accurate" than the big stuff: In calm or nearly calm conditions the 30 will shoot as well or better than the 45s ~ accuracy, less recoil, all that stuff. I do maintain that they drift more in the same wind.

However, we have been flirting around with speed in this thread a good deal. At the relatively close targets, like from the 350 "Offhand" on out to the 587 "Diamond" - where the 30 is still humming along supersonic - things go very well indeed. Its fun!

Frank asks; One other thing....... have you actually tried shooting a 30 cal at that range at lower velocity?

Forrest; Yes. At the beginning when I first took the 30'06 out for long range I was using the typical light loads of 4759. These combinations were accurate but slow. Not really slow liken to PB shooting but not 'fast' either. They drifted badly enough that in any real wind I'd run out of windage trying to keep up.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Larry;

In your last post you asked about sight elevation limitations.

In the M1903 it is easily done with the Camp Perry tool. ~ However, I can't see the front sight well enough for good shooting these days either.

My solution is to build and use receiver sight aperture extensions. When my receiver sight runs out of elevation (I don't have a long-staff 48 for everything) I install these simple extensions right on the line and keep on shooting.

If (shudder) I shoot with an optical sight I simply add a 0.057 shim under the rear mount to gain additional elevation capability. The 0.057 thickness was arrived at by estimation and good luck. I can shoot at 100 yards and not run out of internal adjustment at 834 with my chosen load.

Look at my avatar - you can see the odd scope angle on my M1903 there on the line.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Larry Gibson]

Forrest

I think the M1903 rear sight may have enough adjustment for frank's loads but will see what he comes up with. I've shot 311284s at 1400 fps at 100 yards and know the initial sight setting for zero, past that I don't know the elevation requirements for 1000 yards especially. Based on the 45-70 elevation requirements the '03 rear sight may have enough.

Have an '03 sight adjustment tool. Works great on the OM tang sight too.

All my long range scoped rifles have the bases shimmed also. I have the scope elevation bottomed out +3 moa up and shim them for a 200 yard elevation zero. That leaves max elevation adjustment in the scope. Just a different way to skin the cat is all.

My match '03 has a 48 long slide with 1/4 moa adjustments. I've another cast rifle with another M 48 long slide. My M 70 and Savage match rifles have Redfield Palma sights which have lots of elevation adjustments.

Looking close at your avatar I see we must get together for some long range '03 shooting?

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Win94ae;

Your request is granted.

I have just returned from the range after shooting my 2-groove M1917 Enfield over the long range course of fire.

As I indicated, I chronographed the load I normally use for this kind of shooting for the membership's consideration.

I clocked 18 rounds this time. It has been a bright sunny day and the timer didn't work perfectly due to high light conditions - this is always somewhat frustrating but I believe the rounds I caught were timed correctly.

Anyway, I shot RCBS 30-180-SP heat treated from the mold @ 190 grains over 32.5 grains IMR 4895.

Average velocity was 2030 ft/sec. Standard Deviation for the 18 shots was 10.73.

In the single shot game I always tried very hard to get my SD below 10. Here in bottle-neck shooting I'm pretty happy to see anything below 15.

(The black powder boys can get numbers like 4 or 5 SD ~ I think that this capability is what keeps them in the running at all.)

Conditions were tough out there in the hot sun. I and my two dogs drank a full gallon of water.

At the 834 yard distance things were challenging in that the wind was on the nose, switching over from 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock, not strong mind you, but when it went over-center (if you could see it do so) the bullet impact really got going too.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Larry;

I looked up an old sight-card for my M1903. It had numbers for 311284 over 31.0 gr 4198 on out to 1000 ~ and plenty left over for something slow like Frank's 1400 ft/sec idea.

When I wrote down the numbers I didn't note which portion of the sight I was using. The 'U' at the top, the inverted 'V' lower on the sight or the peep. I do believe it was the peep but there is no doubt about plenty of elevation.

I too think it would be rewarding to spend some time on the firing line together ~ but I imagine you live far, far away from Sheridan.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[frnkeore]

Forest,
This might explain why you had a much greater wind drift than your buddy's 45 cal.

While I can't post a design for his Postel. I can post the 40 cal Snover bullet and it's close in design to the Postel.

8125081251

Next, the discontinued RCBS 200 gr Sil

81253

The last bullet design is my own and would be a excellet 1000 yard, fixed bullet for the '06.

81252

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Forrest

I'm hoping to get up that way next May/June for some PD shooting. Maybe then?

Larry Gibson

[Win94ae]

...Anyway, I shot RCBS 30-180-SP heat treated from the mold @ 190 grains over 32.5 grains IMR 4895.

Average velocity was 2030 ft/sec. Standard Deviation for the 18 shots was 10.73.

In the single shot game I always tried very hard to get my SD below 10. Here in bottle-neck shooting I'm pretty happy to see anything below 15...

Thank you!

That is interesting. I have a very precise load using the Lee 180gr RN, with 48.2gr of IMR4350 going 2215fps with an extreme spread of about 15. I've only shot it to 400 yards so far, (I need to wait until the corn is down before I can try 600.) I expect it to go transonic at 550 yards, whereas I would only get reliable accuracy at 600. Now I'm thinking I might get it a bit further.

I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row before I go to a public range, whereas I can shoot passed 600 yards.

I use the same load in my sporterized Springfield03, (100fps slower,) which it seems to be just as precise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AOSJrdcezs
But my sight is at the halfway point at 300 yards with 22.5MOA of travel left. So I don't think I'm going to be able to get it very far, simply because I don't have enough sight. My scoped 30-06 with about 45MOA more adjustment will have to get me as far as possible.

Thanks again... everyone!

[FAsmus]

Win94ae;

That is an impressive load. I have some 4350 around here somewhere - I may try it too.

What kind if sight are you using?

Did you notice how Larry and I use shims under the rear mount of scopes to increase available elevation? ~ Also, simple extensions for receiver sight apertures are the answer for that type sight.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Win94ae]

Win94ae;

That is an impressive load. I have some 4350 around here somewhere - I may try it too.

What kind if sight are you using?

Did you notice how Larry and I use shims under the rear mount of scopes to increase available elevation? ~ Also, simple extensions for receiver sight apertures are the answer for that type sight.

Good morning,
Forrest

On the Springfield, there is a Lyman 57 SME which screws into the receiver at the side. :/

My scoped rifle has Burris Signature Zee rings with inserts that I can cant my scope, so I am good with it... other than I have my eye on a $300 Super Sniper scope. :)

[FAsmus]

Frank;

You posted some nice drawings - I'd like one of those RCBS SIL molds!

However, if you really want to compare bullet designs we really should see what sectional density and ballistic coefficient each one of then has. The drawings are nice, but I could not read any of the text they included. ~ If the data was there it was invisible to me.

The 45 caliber Postell design is well known. Lyman even produces one which shoots well enough and you should be able to give it a whirl in some meaningful way. The others like SAECO, Paul Jones' designs or NEI's offerings are around too, just to name a few.

All things being equal the man who did that shooting with me is a better shot than I am. ~ On the other hand, I did beat him twice at the 1000 with my 50/90 - shooting bigger bullets than his by the way.

Good day,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Win94ae:

Here are a couple shots of the Redfield "Hunter" type sight I have on my M1917 Enfield with the extension in place.

As you can see it is a very simple little item; easy to make, easy to use.

Good day,
Forrest

81321

81322

81323

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
If you click on the pictures, they should enlarge so that you can read them. If not, give me your Email and I can send them to you full size.

Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank;

Thanks, that worked. ~ I'm happy to see the BC of the RCBS 30-180-SP at last.

I sure like your design. I bet it does fine in 200 yd PB competition.

Good morning,
Forrest

[WILCO]

The 30 caliber, shooting cast bullets (except perhaps for PP @ 2600+ or so) cannot shoot with the venerable old black powder cartridges at 1000 yards. (Shooting black or smokeless by the way - I do not play favorites)

This, as you see, is a pretty firm statement.....

Yep. With my limited knowledge on such matters, that's how I took it.

[HollowPoint]

These bullets aren't readily available but, I modified an NOE 198 grain Spitzer cast bullet to use as a Long Range hunting bullet.

I'm still doing load work up as time permits but, admittedly it's slow going due to my work schedule. I have found them to fly concentrically with no leading of any kind at a hundred yards. The tightest groups I've gotten so far are about an inch with a couple of different loads.

I never intended them to travel a thousand yards but with proper heat treated alloy and getting them up to 2200-2400 fps, it may be enough velocity to get you to a thousand yards without key-holing as it gets to the transition zone between supersonic and subsonic speeds. I was thinking more like four or five hundred yards of accurate fire when I put them together.

With slower burning powders it might get you there.

HollowPoint

[frnkeore]

Where do you get those aluminum BT GC's?

Frank

[HollowPoint]

Where do you get those aluminum BT GC's?

Frank

They're home-made Gas-Checks made with home-made Gas-Check-Dies. They were made for an ongoing project to determine the viability of Boat-Tailed cast bullets for long range shooting and hunting.

This project was only intended to last a few weeks. It's now going on a few months. I'm now in the shooting/testing stages of this project but, due to my erratic work schedule it's hard to find the time to get to the range as I'd like. I'm slowly making progress though.

HollowPoint

[frnkeore]

Thank you, Hollowpoint.

Do they crimp on like Hornaday GC's and have you tested to see if they reliably stay attached after exiting the muzzle?

Frank

[HollowPoint]

As of now I've tested these specialty Gas-Checks on five different cast bullets that included a couple of my own home made bullet molds. I have not been able to recover any of the bullets I've shot.

The subject of recovering one or more of my fired bullets has been brought up in another thread here on this forum. Once I work up an accurate enough load to do some long range testing, I'll make it a point to shoot them into some sort of test-medium in order recover a few.

I'd be interested in examining the bullets to see what the tail ends look like after being shot. I think that would yield alot of information regarding the effects of the burning powder on these Boat-Tailed bullets and the Gas-Checks.

They are crimped on exactly like conventional plain based Gas-Checks. Since these Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks tend to cover more of the Gas-Check-Shanks on my cast bullets, this means they have a larger surface area to secure to than conventional plain base Gas-Checks. Also, since the bullets themselves have the Boat-Tail Bevel extensions incorporated into the bullet mold cavities, I'm assuming that this equates to more gripping power once they're crimped on.

In order to be sure of this I'll have to recover a few of the fired bullets.

HollowPoint

[FAsmus]

Hollow-Point;

You might consider asking some of this membership to assist you in the testing phase of your very interesting project ~

Good evening,
Forrest

[frnkeore]

84475
My competitors and myself, deal with trans sonic, all the time. We shoot 200 yards at + - 1400 fps. What happens to a trans sonic bullet at that range is that it tips, like the twist is to slow. What happens in LR shooting is that tipping causes a big drop in the BC until it re-stablizes causing additional wind drift.

I have seen some very good scores shot as the bullet goes through the target in this range so, it's does not necessarily cause inaccuracy.

Frank

As support for my postion that tipped bullets can still have accuracy, I offer this target, shot in a shoulder to shoulder match at 200 yards, in Modesto, CA last weekend.

Barry Darr had his Oehler Model 43 set up for me and others to test our loads @ 100 yards. My results were.

Altitude 89 Feet

Temp. 78F

Baro Pressure 29.99

BC G1 .375

Corrected muzzle velocity 1426

ES 10 fps, SD 3 fps

100 yard measured velocity 1278

predected 200 yard velocity 1154

Group .9, SD Radius, .3

While Barry did the testing at 100, the score match is 10 shots at 200 yards. The 6 center shots measure 1.050 or almost exactly 1/2 minute of angle, while the remaining 4 shots in the 24 ring measure 2.620 or 1.25 min. as you can see, about 7 of the 10 shots were tipped pretty badly.

Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank:

I have done some shooting in 40/65 that was intended to explore this stability question as it relates to accuracy.

The rifle had a 1:18 twist barrel and at the velocities I was restricted to (plain base bullets @ your favorite speed of 1350 - 1400) I was unable to stabilize the typical things like the RCBS 40-420-BPC or the SAECO 65740. These would print out-of-round but would generally shoot fairly well anyway.

My problem was that the poor stability was always on my mind even as I squeezed the trigger for each shot! I searched for a better solution for a long time, trying various weights and mold designs, always trying for the heaviest bullet that would stabilize in my barrel @ 1400 ft/sec - going the custom mold route and some expense as well.

I finally settled on a custom PB-350 gr with a nearly spitzer ogive. The bullet was as long as the SAECO 65740 but the shape seemed to improve its stability at the velocity level I was working in. This called the usual calculations for stability/velocity, bullet length and barrel twist into question!

I essentially tossed the calculations, went with my experimental results, loaded them up and went shooting..

Since then I took the 40 caliber barrel off the Ballard and hung it on my Marlin M1895 instead of the 45/70 barrel it came with. This was an excellent hunting outfit with Lyman 412263.

Later, I began loading the Marlin with SAECO 65640 and used the rifle to compete at Quigley in "Lever" class, which worked out well for a few years. (single-load only - the loaded cartridge being way too long for magazine function).

These days I've been shooting a 7x57. This rifle would stabilize SAECO 071 beautifully - and shoot nice tight groups - but I wanted a heavier bullet for the long range shooting I enjoy. I went with the RCBS 7mm-168-SP.

The 7mm RCBS would not stabilize well unless I pushed it to 2000 ft/sec. Fortunately this load has proven to be accurate and very consistent too.

Good shooting,
Forrest

PS - Shooting is 90% mental ~ the other half is physical. ~ Thanks Yogi..

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
The most likely reason that that your spitzer stabilized better that the other bullet bullet of the same lenght is that the CG was a little farther back.

Frank

[felix]

Forrest, remember the air resistance rule we have always talked about here: The more air friction (forwards and sideways), the boolit enjoys more twist to compensate. Therefore, a pointed boolit with the same length as a blunt one will require LESS twist for the same accomplishment. For the same reason, a lead boolit with a lead jacket instead of a copper one will require LESS twist. Rotational inertia, don'tcha' know! ... felix

[FAsmus]

Felix;

Ah! There you are again!

~ I'm sure you're right about that custom 40 caliber pill and the RCBS that followed it when I went to 40/65 on the M1895.

The 40/65 was originally on a Red Willow Ballard, from when they were up in the Bitteroots in Montana. It had a very strange throat, being about 0.140 long @ 0.414 right ahead of the chamber. The custom bullet cast at 0.415 and filled things up nicely, making the rifle shoot quite well once I'd figured it all out - which involved opening up the loading dies and the lubrisizer die for the non-standard diameter.

Good morning,
Forrest