How do you harden pure lead?

[-Mischief]

I have some pure lead and some WW lead and I want to cast for my 9mm and 40sw. (I've been making slugs for my air rifles) How do I harden it? I read that Tin and Antimony is what you need but how much?

[unclogum bill]

Let me add to your Question , "where do you purchase it"

[NewbieDave007]

You can use the lead calulator in one of the stickies in this section to figure up a mix. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators

I haven't casted myself as of yet, but you might want to look at another thread for some ideas. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?211002-What-s-a-good-newb-blend-to-start-with-(CO-SO-WW-only)

As for buying "it", you can look at the Swappin & Sellin section of this forum, Rotometals (top of the page), local scrap yards (if they will sell it to you), or local tire shops.

Good luck.
Dave

[montana_charlie]

I have some pure lead and some WW lead and I want to cast for my 9mm and 40sw. (I've been making slugs for my air rifles) How do I harden it? I read that Tin and Antimony is what you need but how much?
The wheel weights you have (if they are the clip-on variety) contain antimony and tin ... along with lead.
The hardness varies some, but they can be assumed to contain about 4% antimony and 0.5% tin.
Your pure lead (if it's really pure) will have a hardness of about 4.5 BHN and the wheelweights will be about 12 BHN.

You can mix pounds of wheelweights with pounds of pure lead to get an alloy that falls between 4.5 and 12 BHN.

You can buy antimony at Rotometals, and they sell tin, too. Tin will melt into hot lead with no hesitation, but antimony requires knowledge, higher heat, and a special flux to make it combine with lead. Rotometals does sell an alloy that is about 30% antimony (already alloyed with lead) which is a good source of that metal for a bullet caster.

Or, you can buy 'harder' alloys (harder than pure lead) from Rotometals which are already accurately mixed, and suitable for bullet casting.

There is MUCH more to know about this subject, but I am only giving you (and unclogum bill) a basic answer because you are new. Handing you the entire 'encyclopedia' would only confuse you. Get some alloy (or mix it up yourself) and cast some bullets. With some hands on experience under your belt(s) you will be able to ask more pertinent questions.

CM

[d_man2]

I am a big on using what I have....if I want to harden up some soft lead, I always look around thrift shops and garage sales for peweter mugs, bowls, plates etc and I add some to my lead. You can usually get them dirt cheap from those kinds of places and since they are 85 percent or more pure tin you cannot go wrong. I also water quench them. With a bit of tin they will go up to around 30 on the Brinell hardness scale. I am not too scientific in my amounts, 2 percent weight of tin is a good rule of thumb, once water quenched they will be super hard. Now I know a lot of people say that after 2 years they will start to soften again. My thoughts are.......why would I want bullets around that long when I could shoot them!?

[-Mischief]

Water quench? Completely submerging when dropping them or onto a wet towel?

[Springfield]

50/50 lead/WW work well in most 9mm and 40's for normal velocity ammo.

[el34]

Water quenching=dropping them out of the mold into a container of water.
But how well it works is affected by how much antimony is in it, and how much arsenic (if any).

Clip on WW are assumed to have enough antimony to bring them to a hardness of 9-12BHN.
Stick on WW have very little, their hardness hovers around 6.5BHN.
Pure lead is 5BHN.

Antimony adds about 0.9BHN for every % in the mix.

Tin contributes very little to hardness, it adds 0.3BHN for every % in the mix. Its purpose is to defeat the surface tension of molten lead so that it fills mold details completely. Almost unanimous agreement is to mix in 1-2% tin. Pewter=tin, if you can find it. Solder has various amounts of tin and is a good source also.

Rotometals product called Superhard, 30% antimony, has an effective hardness of 36BHN. If you use it, calculate how much with simple ratios.

Linotype (20BHN, 4% tin) and Monotype (30BHN, 9-10% tin) are good sources of antimony and contribute about all the tin you need as well.

Read this-
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[-Mischief]

Phew...lot's of info here. I'll probably re-read these posts for the next month while do research on the info here. Pewter...I'll definitely look into that. From what I'm gathering, I should be able to mix what I have (pure lead and WW Lead) and come up with a decent hardness, somewhere around 8-9 BHN. Next purchase...hardness tester.

[el34]

Next purchase...hardness tester.

Excellent idea!
Then you'll spin in circles deciding between the Lee ($55 or so) and the Cabine Tree ($145 or so). But if you're the kind that likes to know what's going on, numbers beat hunches and hopes.

Lead = 5BHN,
COWW (theoretically) = 10BHN,
so a 50/50 mix will get you halfway between, 7.5BHN. Maybe a bit on the light side for 40, maybe just fine. Only your gun will tell.

To see the math easier, calculate for 80% (=0.8) COWW and 20% (=0.2) pure lead-

0.8 X 10BHN plus 0.2 X 5BHN = 8+1=9BHN for the 80/20 mix.

[bangerjim]

Phew...lot's of info here. I'll probably re-read these posts for the next month while do research on the info here. Pewter...I'll definitely look into that. From what I'm gathering, I should be able to mix what I have (pure lead and WW Lead) and come up with a decent hardness, somewhere around 8-9 BHN. Next purchase...hardness tester.

next.....NEXT purchase: electrostatic powder coating gun.......Harbor Freight or Eastwood. Using PC on boolits minimizes the worry about getting the lead at an exact hardness because the coating is harder than any lead and sticks like crazy to it. No gun leading to worry about.

AND......you eliminate the need for all those messy pig fat greasy/waxy/smelly lubes!

Check out (with several searches here) the threads on electrostatic gun powder coating. Piglet method does not work nearly as well......you will be disappointed with it. LOTS of people here have great success with the gun-coated slugs.

Check this out: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209151-Powder-Coating-101-Electrostatic-Method

bangerjim

[d_man2]

Water quenching=dropping them out of the mold into a container of water.
But how well it works is affected by how much antimony is in it, and how much arsenic (if any).

Clip on WW are assumed to have enough antimony to bring them to a hardness of 9-12BHN.
Stick on WW have very little, their hardness hovers around 6.5BHN.
Pure lead is 5BHN.

Antimony adds about 0.9BHN for every % in the mix.

Tin contributes very little to hardness, it adds 0.3BHN for every % in the mix. Its purpose is to defeat the surface tension of molten lead so that it fills mold details completely. Almost unanimous agreement is to mix in 1-2% tin. Pewter=tin, if you can find it. Solder has various amounts of tin and is a good source also.

Rotometals product called Superhard, 30% antimony, has an effective hardness of 36BHN. If you use it, calculate how much with simple ratios.

Linotype (20BHN, 4% tin) and Monotype (30BHN, 9-10% tin) are good sources of antimony and contribute about all the tin you need as well.

Read this-
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

El34 is correct.....what I should have said was that I do add the pewter as it is high in tin so it makes the lead flow much better, but there is also antimony and various other ingredients. I assumed (and I know that is a bad word) that you were using clipped WW. There is enough antimony in them to make them water quench really well. If you do water quench BE SURE to keep your pail of water well away from where you are casting! This cannot be stressed enough. Water and molten lead are an explosive combination! What I do is stand at my bench to cast and my pail of water is on the floor a half step away that way water and lead are unlikely to ever be in contact

[jmort]

Once you hit 3% antimony, you can heat treat it and get it to around 22 bhn. To me the most useful mix would be 95% lead 2% tin, and 3% antimony.

[unclogum bill]

.How can you tell Peweter from other metals . In truth, I really don't have a clue. Aluminum as opposed to peweter ?. Does it require a hotter flame?.

[Lloyd Smale]

what i do with alot of my pure to make it good enough for handgun velocitys is mix in about 20 percent clip on ww and 2 percent tin and water drop it. It comes out about the same hardness as clip on ww which is good for about any handgun velocity.

[unclogum bill]

I liked the Idea of pewter given here as a means to harden the lead, Did a little research on the web, but finding it is not easy. Thrift stores , the suggested starting point have lots of possibles, web site says to look for it stamped on the whatever. well stainless silver copper all there no pewter stamp. The tests for it can not be done easy . With prices for knick nacks rising , seemed to easy to buy the wrong stuff and find it won't melt in the pot.

[Messy bear]

Are any of you familiar with the powdered antimony that was or is available for making your own alloy? I used it years back but don't know if we can get it any more.

[d_man2]

Bill, I just bought 2 pewter mugs from the local Goodwill for 1.50 each, they are out there, just got to keep looking! It is definitely one of the cheaper sources of good alloy materials.

[.429]

i found on this site, about using a paint roller pan for water quenching. it works so good! just drop em on the ramp area and they roll into the water. there's no splashing at all

[mold maker]

The amount of water held in a paint roller pan will heat too quickly. A bucket near full on the floor is the ticket. If your afraid of splashes, tie a cloth over the top with a split in the middle, to catch and funnel the boolits into.
Water on top of lead only sizzles and spits steam, not lead. In order for the water to cause problems, it has to be introduced beneath the surface of the molten lead.
Satisfy yourself to this fact, by dripping a drop on top of the melt. It just does a tap dance till it's all evaporated. Water is 1/12th the weight of lead and will not penetrate it. The tinsel fairy comes when something with moisture in or on, it is plunged beneath the melt surface, where the steam has no where to go.

[d_man2]

Yes, the boolits that you had already cast, although hot, do not pose any explosive threat, it is the water going into your lead pot that you have to worry about.

[popper]

Read an interesting article on hardening lead alloys (94/6/2). Heat it to 180C, swage (compress it by 15-20%), raise the temp to 220C, soak for a while then WD into chilled water. I didn't know lead was compressible. Not easy for us home guys to do but it raises the strength to ~15 times the normal WD strength. That should be about the same as a solid copper slug. Wow. Guess it might work for the lead wire swaging crowd.

[-Mischief]

Interesting. Also, is there a way to make lead heavier? Or is there a heavier alternative that can be used as a core? I have some .800" jackets from Corbin and the absolute heaviest bullet I can get out of them, with a bit of a larger "soft tip" than I would like, is 80gn. I can get a beautiful open tip at about 79gns. I'm shooting for 90-100gn. I have a gentleman locally, and I'm sure there are more out there, who is looking for a heavy 22cal bullet loaded light, to be shot subsonic out of a 1 in 6 twist, 22" .223.
I shot some open tip, 79grainers, out of my Savage model 12FV with 26", 1 in 9 and it didn't do too bad. I got it down to 1900fps and it was still close to 1 MOA. Anyway...any ideas on a heavier boolit core?

[SniderBoomer]

Read an interesting article on hardening lead alloys (94/6/2). Heat it to 180C, swage (compress it by 15-20%), raise the temp to 220C, soak for a while then WD into chilled water. I didn't know lead was compressible. Not easy for us home guys to do but it raises the strength to ~15 times the normal WD strength. That should be about the same as a solid copper slug. Wow. Guess it might work for the lead wire swaging crowd.

You have a link to that article?

[John Boy]

COWW (theoretically) = 10BHNGarden variety COWW's now a days are eith Bhn13.5 or 15.3. Bhn 10 is totally old weights. Change the formula

[BAGTIC]

I have been casting HTWW bullets for over 25 years and have never had a problem getting any clip on WW metal up to at least BHN22. I would be afraid anything much harder might become brittle. I know BHN 22 will easily penetrate engine blocks and as I don't expect to ever take on anything bigger than a V-8 I am content.

[popper]

Snider. I'll get it to you, it is a patent doc. Legal to use as long as you obey the rules.

[Oreo]

.How can you tell Peweter from other metals . In truth, I really don't have a clue. Aluminum as opposed to peweter ?. Does it require a hotter flame?.

Tin (and real pewter) creaks when you bend it. Nothing else you'd mistake for tin does this.

I must look pretty odd in the local thrift shops going from goblet to goblet bending the stems a little.

[meeesterpaul]

there is an easy way to test - but - I hear these xray guns are shockingly expensive.
80996