1866/1873 sight info needed

[joeb33050]

In Lonesome Dove the Robert Duval character is chased by some bad guys, lays his horse down, and shoots a bad guy at very long range with a Winchester 1866? 1873? after standing the rear sight up.
Can someone out there tell me if 1866 or 1873 Winchesters had flip up rear sights, and what the calibrations were? EX: "Adjustable from 200 to 900 yards in 100 yard increments."
Thanks;
joe brennan

[junkbug]

JoeB;
I don't know about the "Yellowboy", but the 1873 Saddle Ring Carbine had the sights you described.

This is not definative proof, but look at these replicas. According to the webpage, the sights are graduated to 900 yards. I believe they are graduated in 100 yard increments, ie: 1 thru 9.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=851
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=5621

I have wanted one of these '73 repro SRC in 44-40 for quite some time. I have never found one to look at in person, so I have not wanted to spend the money yet.

Good luck.

Sean

PS. Looks like sombody made a mistake with their rifling specs. in the ad.

[9.3X62AL]

The rear sight depicted in Junkbug's post is identical to the "ladder" rear sight on my Win '73 (made 1897) in 44-40 WCF.

As an aside, the description of the rifle's bore sounds a little tight for a 45 Colt--.424" x .432"--and a little wide for a 44-40. 44-40 WCF was nominally .427". I have seen repro '73s being put up in 357 Magnum, and I'm not sure that full-potential 357 loads have any business being fired in that old knee-action mechanism. The usual twist for the 44-40 by Winchester was 1-38" pitch, owing to the short/fat 200-217 grain bullets it was usually loaded with.

[454PB]

I have a Uberti reproduction 1866 "Yellowboy" 44/40 that has the adjustable rear ladder sight. Though I've used it, it was never at more than 50 yards. I'll have to look, I don't recall seeing any calibration markings on it. It seems pretty ridiculous to be shooting one of these at more than 100 yards. I can't answer as to whether the originals had the ladder sights.

[9.3X62AL]

The C-96 Mauser PISTOL has rear sight clicks to 1000 meters--to give a little perspective to the 900 yard idea with the Win 66/73. I suspect this is a volley-fire/massed-fire military tool finding its way onto citizen firearms for "neat-o/keen" factor........like light rails on SIG-Sauer pistols.

[Bent Ramrod]

In the book I think the Duvall character (Angus somebody? CRS!) carried an 1847 Walker in his holster ("there were giants on the earth in those days") and carried a Henry repeater in his saddle scabbard. He remarked to someone in the course of the book that these weapons were no longer modern but served him well enough. If I recall, Duvall in the movie had a Dragoon pistol of some sort and had the Henry rifle.

The sight on many Henrys was the "Sporting Leaf," a fold-down ladder with a notch on a slide which could be set along lines incised in the ladder when the sight was up. When it was down, it had a notch "battle sight" for short ranges. The top of the ladder was rounded, with a tiny notch in the center. There were later variants on this design, called variously "Special Musket" and "Carbine" sights. They were all allegedly adjustable to 900 yards or so; at least the numbers along the incisions on the ladder went up to "9." There's a pretty good rundown on the sights on page 123 of Madis' "The Winchester Book."

A battle at 900 yards with one side armed with Henrys and the other with Broomhandle Mauser pistols would probably be safer for the participants than a drive up the Antelope Valley Freeway.

I can't remember the name of the Tommy Lee Jones character either:(. If I didn't have the books I wouldn't be able to remember nothin!

[9.3X62AL]

[QUOTE=Bent Ramrod;235736]A battle at 900 yards with one side armed with Henrys and the other with Broomhandle Mauser pistols would probably be safer for the participants than a drive up the Antelope Valley Freeway.QUOTE]

Too funny, BR! I know I-5 got ugly last week.

Yep, a hit under those conditions could raise quite a welt. Gotta be careful with that.

[shooter575]

I have a Uberti Henry.Here is the issued type of sight marked to 900 yd mounted on the barrel..I added the peep.
The 2nd pic is a real nice copy made by Greg Clark.[no markings though]I dovetailed it to fit the receiver.Many of the C/W issued ones had both dovetails

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/shooter575/Henrysightmod.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/shooter575/Clark3.jpg

[hydraulic]

Captain Cole.

[MtGun44]

I LOVED that scene.

IIRC, he was using a Henry rifle, which would have used the pretty
moderate .44 Rimfire. If you remember the scene, the buffalo hunter
was so unimpressed with the "pop gun" that he was standing up
laughing and essentially daring him to hit him, because he was "out of
range".

I have hit our 18" metal gong at 200 yds many, many time with
a .45ACP 1911 Colt handgun, with a 200 gr SWC at about 900 fps.
One web source says the .44 Henry had a 200 gr bullet over 26 to
28 gr of BP, with a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps. No powerhouse
but "You wouldn't want to stand out there" (one of my favorite
sayings). Gotta be a lot easier than hitting that gong at 200 yds
with the 1911 - more velocity, better bullet shape and 5 times
the sight radius, and prone position.

I've always thought the scene to be the product of someone who really
did know what an old grizzled veteran Texas Ranger might be able
to do, even with an obsolete gun and 'popgun caliber', if he had
carried and used the same rifle for many years. He dropped the horse
for concealment, unlimbered the rifle, popped up the ladder sight,
wiped the front sight clean for a sharp sight picture, and rested
prone, taking several shots to walk them into the standing bad guy.

Remember that the bullet strike sound effect was just a sort of
WHAP, and the guy took several days to die from being gutshot,
probably about what would happen from such a hit.

Seems pretty realistic to me.

Bill

[joeb33050]

Was the 1866 a Henry or a Winchester? Wasn't the 1866 the brass frame rifle? Have I got it all mixed up?
Thanks to all for the help so far.
joe brennan

[454PB]

Here's a picture of mine


5125

[MtGun44]

The Henry was the first lever action rifle from Winchester, but
since Mr. Winchester was a rich and famous shirt maker, he
didn't want to risk putting his name on the first rifle, so it was
named for the designer, Mr. Henry. It had a brass frame (and
a few cast iron frames, too) and NO handguard, and no loading
port because you loaded the tube mag from the front like
some .22s. You had an external mag follower running in a slot
which you had to move your hand to let it pass or risk fouling
it, plus the barrel got hot in heavy shooting. A heavy glove was
a common accessory for wartime use, and the Henry is credited
with turning the tide at Gettysburg in a key engagement where
the entire group of Yankees had outfitted themselves with
leverguns at their own (very considerable!) expense. From a
well protected position they were able to pour out enough firepower
to stop a number of determined charges that with conventional
rifled muskets would have likely succeeded and possibly changed
the battle and perhaps the course of the war.

The 1866 was the originally called the improved Henry, then the
Winchester 1866 (IIRC, only after the 1873 model came out and
it was necessary to distinguish). It had the loading port, no
slot in the mag tube (dirt entry!) and a handguard. Trivia question:
what 1873 Winchester doesn't have a loading port?

I haven't seen the movie in quite a while, but I think the
scene mentioned used a handguardless Henry rifle.

Also the 1866 was also originally in the same .44 rimfire caliber, but
I think it was later chambered in other calibers.

Bill

PS Older shooters will remember that all Winchester .22 rimfire ammo
used to have an H on the base. This honored Mr. Henry for more
than 100 yrs after his rifle came out.

[floodgate]

MT Gun:


" Trivia question:
what 1873 Winchester doesn't have a loading port?"

The .22's; there were separate designs for the .22 Short and the .22 Long. (The Long Rifle was invented by Stevens in the late 1880s.)

From my reading, the 1866 was called a "Winchester" right from the beginning; there were experimentals in other calibers, and a beefed-up version in .46 caliber was peddled in Europe for military trials, but didn't go anywhere. The earliest ones had a flat loading gate, but the "scoop" was soon added.

The Winchester 9mm metallic shotshells for the (I think) Model 36 were marked with a "W" - primarily for promoting the company name in Europe, where most of these were sold. Except for a few odd-balls, the "H" for Henry was standard.

floodgate

[MtGun44]

Floodgate is right. The 73 Winchesters all had loading gates except the
.22s.

I was looking at my umpteenth 73 Win at the Tulsa Show some years ago
and it struck me that something was strange about this particular example.
It took several long glances before I figured out it had no loading port.
When I looked up, the owner was grinning at me, and commented
something like 'Never saw one without a loading gate, did ya?", and
then explained that the .22s loaded from the front of the mag tube.

Bill

[jim4065]

Captains Augustus "Gus" McCrae and Woodrow Call.