NOE Mould problem..

[Paulinski]

I have a problematic mould. Its the 247gr .300 Blackout mould I have tried casting three times with it and no luck.

I'm getting poor fallout / wrinkles in the lube grooves...How frustrating. Each time I washed the cavities with brake cleaner...Pre-heated / lubed with bull plate and still the problem persists.

One thing I'm doing differently its 3 cavity mould and I'm casting with 2 cavities because I don't use the hollow point third one...

I have great luck with other NOE moulds but this one is a stubborn one..

Any ideas?

[detox]

Turn up the heat to 775-800. Use a good thermometer like the RCBS. You will need a hard alloy like linotype to work with that fast twist.

[GLL]

Alloy? Alloy temp? You may need more heat and faster cast rate with that 3rd cavity empty !

Jerry

[Paulinski]

Alloy temp is at 700....I think the alloy is 98-1-1 I'm not sure as I buy the lead from local place that sells plated lead bullets..

Same casting session I used 3 cavity NOE mould 198gr .30 cal boolits. Perfect boolits from first cast.

Hence my confusion with the 247gr mould...

[Beagle333]

If your temp is hot, of both mold and alloy....... Is the sprue plate too tight? With a bigger boolit, there is a lot of air to be displaced. Yesterday I was casting some 300+ grainers with my new MP mold, and I had the plate a little too tight and I couldn't get fill-out for anything, and I loosened the plate to swing "almost" freely (but not too loose) and it started making them perfectly. Apparently it just had to breathe.

[Paulinski]

I'm not sure about the weight because I can cast perfect 700gr boolits for my S&W 500...

I'll try raising the temp to 800, I never casted this hot before...

[geargnasher]

Don't go over 750F if you want to keep your tin. Detox hasn't learned about that yet ;)

Sounds to me like the mould isn't hot enough. Get it up to 400F at least and try that.

Gear

[GLL]

Try increasing alloy temp a little and casting all three cavities as fast as you can ! See if heating up the mold with that third HP cavity operational helps ! I have a bunch of the NOE standard single-pin HP molds and a "warm" mold is your friend ! :)

Casting rate may be more of a problem that actual alloy temp.

Jerry

[376Steyr]

How are you dispensing the lead into the mould? Bottomdripper spout? Lyman egg ladle? Lee teaspoon? Poring from altitude or pressure casting?

[Paulinski]

I'm casting with RCBS ladle...

[41 mag fan]

Gear had it on spot...going higher than 750 will burn your tin out of your melt.
I cast mine at 700 to 725. My NOE molds are hot, when I start casting.
I'll heat on the hotplate on med till my pots up to temp, then after fluxing, I'll dip the mold into the melt for about 3-4 min as i get my final preparations done to start casting.

[MT Chambers]

You def, need to fill all 3 cavities to keep temp up on the whole mold.

[sargenv]

I'm casting with 95-3-2.. and I have a 4 cavity of the same.. I put the mold on top of the pot to warm up while the pot warms up to casting temp.. I tried as hot as about 700 (thermometer reading) but haven't tried loosening the sprue plate yet.. I too get what seems to be wrinkled bullets and poor fillout for the grease grooves.. When the bullets cool down they ring nicely so it appears that they have a hard enough alloy with adequate tin.. but just not much luck as far as nice looking bullets..

[500MAG]

You def, need to fill all 3 cavities to keep temp up on the whole mold.
Lol! I think the question should be you blind?

[detox]

Gear had it on spot...going higher than 750 will burn your tin out of your melt.
I cast mine at 700 to 725. My NOE molds are hot, when I start casting.


750 is too cold for best fillout. Tin loss is very minimal even while using the ladle. Stir and flux every 20-30 boolits. Do not listen to old wives tales of loosing too much tin. Do not use sawdust if you want clean boolits...simple parafin wax will work.

Hard Linotype will work better...even while casting at 800 degrees. RCBS recommends hotter temps with your alloy if you read instructions that come with thermometer

[tomme boy]

Detox, I do not know your history on how long you have been casting. But, Stick around and do some more reading before giving some advice.

[detox]

Detox, I do not know your history on how long you have been casting. But, Stick around and do some more reading before giving some advice.

Do not believe everything you read. I do what works for me

[hanleyfan]

I too was having problems with a mould, just could not get it to throw good boolits, it was a RD 265gr 44cal mold, I was running the lead pot at 700-725 deg. and tried to keep my mold at 375-400 deg. temp. after 3 days of frustration I read where RD recommends running the lead at 780 for good fill out, I tried it and within a few cast I getting good boolits, He said these larger bullets need the lead hot for proper fill out and it is easier to keep the mold hot. I tried it and it works, in 2 hours I cast more good boolits than I had cast in the previous 3 days.

[GLL]

I still think just casting all three cavities will solve the problem !!!
The bonus is you get HPs at the same time ! :)
Do not slow down to admire your handywork !

3000 !

Jerry

[fastglock]

I had the same problem...

I just used the lighter and smoked the cavities with soot then I was good to go.

[Beagle333]

3000 !

:drinks:

[SwedeNelson]

Some good advice above
Gear and fastglock about hit it on the head
Posted a thread here that may help:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?211195-Hints-and-Tips-for-casting-with-NOE-Moulds
You can always give me a call too

Swede Nelson

[geargnasher]

In the interest of protecting the innocent from perpetual myth, and in an effort to present a broader perspective to some of these topics, consider this:


750 is too cold for best fillout. Rubbish. I can achieve perfect fillout with alloy barely hot enough to dribble out of the spout. The trick is mould temperature. Do this some more and you'll learn that pouring overheated alloy into a cold mould is a lousy band-aid for the real problem, which is your casting pace. Tin loss is very minimal even while using the ladle. Stir and flux every 20-30 boolits. While some folks tend to panic unnecessarily over things they read, I don't call needing to reduce the oxide scum every 20-30 boolits "minimal". If you don't "Chernobyl" your alloy, you would need to reduce oxides much less often to keep the tin from oxidizing out in large quantities. Do not listen to old wives tales of loosing too much tin. It isn't an old wive's tale, but proven, scientific fact. Many will not know the difference, but some will due to the nature of their shooting goals. Do not use sawdust if you want clean boolits...simple parafin wax will work. If sawdust makes YOUR boolits dirty, fine, don't use it. I use it in a way that doesn't contaminate my boolits, as do many others, so advising against its use may deprive someone reading this thread of one of the most useful casting tools available, provided they understand that improper use can make ash inclusions. I have described here many times how to use sawdust for complete alloy maintenance (reduction and fluxing) rather than just saying that it will make dirty boolits and writing it off. That said, paraffin wax does indeed make a decent sacrificial reducant, but not such a great flux if your alloy indeed needs contaminant removal.

Hard Linotype will work better...even while casting at 800 degrees. RCBS recommends hotter temps with your alloy if you read instructions that come with thermometer

If you think linotype is the answer for fast twists, there are a few things you haven't tried yet that might impress you. If you want an appeal to authority on alloy temperature, The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Ed. recommends 100 degrees F. above the full liquidus point of the alloy. I've tried it every way possible and tend to agree strongly with Lyman on that, though not with everything they publish. For tin-rich linotype, that means about 575F. Try it sometime, but be prepared to adjust your casting pace to keep heat in the mould. Heating a lead alloy that contains tin above the point of about 750 degrees defeats the protective tin oxide barrier that forms on the flowing stream of alloy and allows lead and other metals in the mix to begin oxidizing on the flowing surface. The other metals do not flex and flow as well as the protective tin oxide barrier, thus increasing the apparent "surface tension" of the flowing metal, which decreases it's ease in filling the mould. Much of the reason people add tin to casting alloy is to help the flow, but if you're going to run the pot at 800F you might as well be using only lead and antimony because a lot of heat DOES make low-tin alloy fill the mould better.

Tin does something else important metallurgically for boolit alloy, but that is a topic for another time.

Gear

[tomme boy]

Gear I'm glad you typed it all out. I did not want to.

[longbow]

Cast at a regular quick rhythm to keep the mould hot.

Also, as mentioned, check sprue plate tightness, it should almost swing free ~ if too tight air may not escape under it. It may help to put a slight (oh so slight) bevel at the top mating faces of the mould blocks to allow air to escape under the sprue plate... just break the edge with a diamond hone of very fine emery like 600 grit.

Also, I usually pre-heat until the sprue plate lube starts to smoke a bit. The mould will be just under the melting point of the lead then and it will take a few seconds for the sprue puddle to freeze. the mould will settle in and cool a bit as you cast but that should get you going.

NOE moulds seem to like to be run fast and hot ~ not so much lead hot but mould hot.

Longbow

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I think 376 Steyer may be on to it: Poring from altitude or pressure casting?

I had same trouble recently with a mold, and pouring the alloy in faster -- and having about 2 inches between ladle and mold -- solved the problem.

As for smoking the mold, a controversial topic, I always do. For me, I feel it helps with bullet release, and to some degree with decreasing wrinkles.

Getting the alloy above 750 never seems to help me. Having the mold warm enough does. I am currently warming mine initially on the electric stove with the mold covered with aluminum foil. I like to cast fast enough the bullets are just starting to frost.

I find all molds are different. Some like to be filled hard and fast, others are not picky. Some want to be held at a specific angle, some don't care. The aluminum molds cool faster than iron or brass. Your mold will tell you what it wants.

Do a little experimening, and the continue with what works for you.

[Paulinski]

Thanks for replies everyone...Ain't this forum great ;)

I will try again and will cast with all three cavities...

Now I never casted hollow point using the pin in a wooden handle. What is the correct way of casting? I only casted hollow points using cramer moulds...

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Quote from Paulinski: "Now I never casted hollow point using the pin in a wooden handle. What is the correct way of casting? I only casted hollow points using cramer moulds... "

1) With the mold closed, insert the pin and turn it so that it locks into position.
2) Pour all cavities.
3) Knock sprue plate back.
4) Turn and remove the hollow point pin.
5) Open mold to drop bullets.

When inserting the pin, don't grip the mold handles too tightly or it may make pin insertion a little more difficult.

Wear long pants and boots. Everyone, at one time or another, will pour without the pin inserted. The lead is still molten when it hits floor level.

Make sure the pin is hot before pouring. I've warmed mine with just the end of the pin on electric stove burner while warming my mold. Other times, I've warmed the pin using my propane torch.

If the pin wants to stick, try sanding it smoother with fine wet/dry sandpaper. I use 400 grit followed by 500. Applying dry graphite on a paper towel helps a lot too.

[Paulinski]

Thanks for the info sir.

I will leave the pin in when I'm preheating the mould on the hot plate...

[Paulinski]

Thanks for the info sir.

I will leave the pin in when I'm preheating the mould on the hot plate...

[41 mag fan]

Do not believe everything you read. I do what works for me

So you're condescending yourself by posting what works for me is an old wives tale, when what works for you does not work for me?
Considering I used to do the paraffin and candle wax as flux and having my temp at 750*, I was getting incomplete fillout, voids from dirt, rounded lube groove bands, frosted casts, boolits out of round, out of size, and major weight variances from one boolit to another.
A look in the pot and there was a nice pretty color of tin oxidizing to the surface.

Dropping to 675* in an outside summer temp garage, and regulating my casting rythym, I done away with everything but the voids from dirt.
Switched to sawdust, and my dirt went bye bye.

Finally got my vent system set up in my air conditioned/heated shop, I now cast at 700-725* depending on melt and mold.
Even at these temps, I cast above 4 casts / minute, I'll get frosted boolits.

It's been scientifically proven that something like sawdust used as a flux will get the minute impurities out of lead, and that it will bind with undesirable impurities like calcium and other unwanted metals.
It's the carbon that sawdust becomes that makes it the best flux to use. Paraffin and wax does not burn down or reduce to a carbon.




Gear I'm glad you typed it all out. I did not want to.

Right on there tomme boy. Gear types it out much better than I.
Think when I need my thoughts explained fully I'll just pm Gear...... HELP!!! He's picking on me!!! :bigsmyl2:

[fastglock]

Cast at a regular quick rhythm to keep the mould hot.

Also, as mentioned, check sprue plate tightness, it should almost swing free ~ if too tight air may not escape under it. It may help to put a slight (oh so slight) bevel at the top mating faces of the mould blocks to allow air to escape under the sprue plate... just break the edge with a diamond hone of very fine emery like 600 grit.

Also, I usually pre-heat until the sprue plate lube starts to smoke a bit. The mould will be just under the melting point of the lead then and it will take a few seconds for the sprue puddle to freeze. the mould will settle in and cool a bit as you cast but that should get you going.

NOE moulds seem to like to be run fast and hot ~ not so much lead hot but mould hot.

Longbow


Useful info for me , Thanks!

[Hamish]

Considering I used to do the paraffin and candle wax as flux and having my temp at 750*, I was getting incomplete fillout, voids from dirt, rounded lube groove bands, frosted casts, boolits out of round, out of size, and major weight variances from one boolit to another.
A look in the pot and there was a nice pretty color of tin oxidizing to the surface.

Dropping to 675* in an outside summer temp garage, and regulating my casting rythym, I done away with everything but the voids from dirt.
Switched to sawdust, and my dirt went bye bye.

Finally got my vent system set up in my air conditioned/heated shop, I now cast at 700-725* depending on melt and mold.
Even at these temps, I cast above 4 casts / minute, I'll get frosted boolits.

It's been scientifically proven that something like sawdust used as a flux will get the minute impurities out of lead, and that it will bind with undesirable impurities like calcium and other unwanted metals.
It's the carbon that sawdust becomes that makes it the best flux to use. Paraffin and wax does not burn down or reduce to a carbon.

Outstanding post, absolutely outstanding. This morning I tried casting using recycled boolits and 1X fluxed ingots and thought I would use a little candle wax as I thought my alloy was *pretty* clean.

Huh-uh, I'm beginning to think that fluxing 3, 4, or even 5 times is not too many times.

[GLL]

Wear long pants and boots. Everyone, at one time or another, will pour without the pin inserted. The lead is still molten when it hits floor level.

RC:

Who would ever pour alloy into the cavity without the pin in place ? ;)

I learned years ago that lead melts right through the top of Nike's when I did that ! :) :)

Jerry

[41 mag fan]

I've tried the candle wax, fluxed at the beginning and middle of my pot with no luck. I finally switched to sawdust. I tried the sawdust and it was ok, got the job done quite nicely, then I went to the pine pet bedding and it was excellent.
I myself, like using sawdust for smelting. I'll flux twice, use a oak dowel to stir, stir, stir. This was from smelting down my scrap range lead.
In my pots I use the pet bedding, as I like having the chunks of burnt wood and I'll stir for a good 4-5 minutes.
It works for me this way as compared to using candle wax or paraffin.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

the last NOE mold I got cast like your description. After many trials and errors, I compared
the sprue plate hole size with the other NOE's that I have that cast great. The new mold -the sprue
holes where considerably smaller. I enlarged them to the same diameter of the molds that work
and no more problems :)

[jethunter]

I found I had to run the pot quite a bit hotter to keep this mold at temperature. 750F and drop the bullets faster than you normally would. I was using a small fan to harden the sprue, count to 6, cut the sprue and drop the bullets. Any delay and the mold would cool down and start getting wrinkled bullets for a couple casts until it warmed up again. End up with shiny bullet tips and frosted midsections but that's the only way I could keep making good bullets.

[geargnasher]

I found I had to run the pot quite a bit hotter to keep this mold at temperature. 750F and drop the bullets faster than you normally would. I was using a small fan to harden the sprue, count to 6, cut the sprue and drop the bullets. Any delay and the mold would cool down and start getting wrinkled bullets for a couple casts until it warmed up again. End up with shiny bullet tips and frosted midsections but that's the only way I could keep making good bullets.

Run it at a TIMED four pours per minute for five minutes with 700-degree alloy and your problem will disappear. So will the shrunken midsections.

Gear

[Jailer]

I found I had to run the pot quite a bit hotter to keep this mold at temperature. 750F and drop the bullets faster than you normally would. I was using a small fan to harden the sprue, count to 6, cut the sprue and drop the bullets. Any delay and the mold would cool down and start getting wrinkled bullets for a couple casts until it warmed up again. End up with shiny bullet tips and frosted midsections but that's the only way I could keep making good bullets.


Run it at a TIMED four pours per minute for five minutes with 700-degree alloy and your problem will disappear. So will the shrunken midsections.

Gear

Plus loose the fan and leave a smaller sprue puddle, one just big enough to ensure good base fill out and nothing more. You're cooling your mold with that fan and it's counter productive to what you are trying to achieve, that being a hotter mold for better fill out.

When I'm having a bit of trouble with a mold not staying up to temp as the OP has described I leave a very small sprue puddle in each individual hole and increase the casting pace. Put's more heat in the mold blocks because less time is spent waiting for a sprue to harden enough to cut it allowing you to decrease the time between pours.

[MarkP]

I would recommend getting the NOE thermometer & probe and drilling your mold block. I have the same mold (311-247 No HP) I slowly preheat to 350 F and have my melt at 695 to 725. Good bullets after a few cycles. Like many I cast outside and temps will range from single digits where water bucket gets a thin layer of ice to 95 F when you are so sweaty you can barley see, all with minimal wind to pretty strong wind. It is very interesting to see how casting rate and ambient temp influences mold temperature. I did have an issue when applying sprue plate lube, it migrated down into cavity and caused some issues, this was on another mold. That one was pretty easy to figure out as I was getting near perfect then I lubed and surfaces were wrinkled. 80615

[geargnasher]

Well explained, Mark. Moulds have a temperature range that seems to work best for each of them with a given alloy. Ambient temperature and also humidity and draft have a huge effect on mould cooling rates. Some alloys need to be run a little more hot or more cool to get the best fillout and to ensure that all the bands are cooling to the correct size and not "hourglassing".

The two things the caster can control beyond mould choice, pouring method, and alloy composition are the pace of each casting operation (pour speed, sprue cooling timing, using a fan on the sprue, pouring angle, etc.), and the alloy temperature. Casting pace is the principle tool for compensating for the weather.

Alloy temperature is dictated by the alloy composition and needs of the mould. Casting pace determines the rest.

Casting boolits is like driving a car, one must constantly monitor and correct all the operations to maintain a consistent product. Speed limits will be what they are (like alloy compositions or individual mould characteristics), but within that the rest is up to the one behind the wheel, or the pot.

Gear

[TXGunNut]

Seems like almost every new mould has a break-in/learning curve built into it. I cast a few hundred big single-cav boolits this morning then changed gears (and furnaces) and cast a bunch of RD boolits. I tried to cast with my new NOE mould but just couldn't get the timing/mould temp/pour temp down. It's very close in technique to my RD moulds but there's something different. I didn't do the heat cycling he recommends but have now completed three heat cycles. May try one more time after I cast a few more RD 359-190's.

[ColColt]

Question about the tin being depleted if the alloy gets over about 750. I have several single cavity molds in .45 caliber between 485-520 gr that I cast in a 1:20 alloy. If I don't get the heat up to about 780-800 they will not fill out properly...especially with one of the molds being a Hoch mold where you have lots of metal to stay hot due to the thickness of the top and bottom plates. Is there a work around having to go up to that temperature with that alloy? As I said, I have problems with filling out of the bands if I don't go higher.

[SwedeNelson]

ColColt

Pot temperature at 700F - 725F
Pre heat your mould to 450F - 480F or to a frosted bullet temp
Use a hot plate to get your mould up to temp
Work the mould temp down to get a nice mat-gray bullet with good fill out
Use your casting speed to keep it at the sweet spot
Pot temp should stay at 700F - 725F
Its in the mould / casting speed that you need to control the temp
If you have to return the mould to the hotplate to get the heat up or
find a warmer place to cast.
Big bullets like that should transfer a lot of heat to play with
Find the sweet spot and run

Swede Nelson