Shotgun repair / SBS question

[WilliamDahl]

Although I don't believe the current NFA rules (or even the very concept of the ATF) is Constitutional, I'm well aware that the government has more money to make my life miserable than I have to fight it.

I understand that they say that if a shotgun has a barrel less than 18" long and the total length is less than 26", then it is classified as a short barreled shotgun (SBS) and must be registered. I understand that you are supposed to get your tax stamp before you "manufacture" such an item.

The question I have is whether removing the stock from an existing shotgun to refinish it would subject you to being charged with having an unregistered SBS?

Also, if someone was going to cut off a barrel of a shotgun or rifle right past the chamber and thread it so that another barrel could be installed, would the rifle / shotgun be technically a SBS or SBR until you had the new barrel installed on it?

[BCgunworks]

The stock removal would be fine.

The barrel work would be fine. It would be and should be obvious that the firearm is being repaired.

[Tatume]

I understand that they say that if a shotgun has a barrel less than 18" long and the total length is less than 26", then it is classified as a short barreled shotgun (SBS) and must be registered.

If the barrel is less than 18" long or the total length is less than 26" it is an NFA weapon. Either condition causes the classification.

[2AMMD]

ASSASIN could answer this. Check his thread "BARREL STUBBED RIFLES"

[WilliamDahl]

ASSASIN could answer this. Check his thread "BARREL STUBBED RIFLES"

Interesting thread and nice workmanship. Couldn't find anything there that addresses the SBS issue though.

[grumman581]

Interesting thread and nice workmanship. Couldn't find anything there that addresses the SBS issue though.

fipb@atf.gov ?

[historicfirearms]

Slightly off topic, but I think this is appropriate to the discussion just to show how murky these ATF rulings are.

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

Be advised, there is some profanity on the link.

These guys are claiming that it is legal to have a barrel shorter than 18 inches. The firearm never had a stock, so it is legally not a shotgun. It is over 26" total length, so is not classified as concealable. I think these are so cool, probably just because its "forbidden fruit", but I'd still like to have one if its indeed non-nfa.

[HATCH]

if the weapon can be fired and the barrel is less then 18 inches (shotgun) or 16 (rifle) then you have a issue with or without a stock.

Interesting about the link above.

A "judge" is a pistol that fires 410 shotshells.
I think the barrel may be rifled, that may be the difference.

[historicfirearms]

The definition of a shotgun from ATF website:


The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


So, the judge is not a shotgun, and neither is a pistol grip only shotgun that has never had a stock installed.

[WilliamDahl]

But, if you put a rifled barrel on it or a rifled sub-caliber insert in the barrel, what does it become at that point?

[WilliamDahl]

Wow... It really gets confusing once the government starts violating the 2nd Amendment's "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" clause.

[NoZombies]

A sub caliber insert doesn't change anything in that its just an adapter. Stub barreling (with a rifled barrel)will change a shotgun to a rifle or pistol.


The way the ATF sees it, if it started life as a shotgun, it must always comply to the rules for shotguns, even if the configuration is changed. This is why a shotgun that leaves the factory as a pistol grip gun can be converted by a SOT to an AOW, but if the shotgun left the factory with a shoulder stock, it cannot be changed to AOW, and even in the same final configuration would be considered a SBS (or a "firearm made from a shotgun").

A simple breakdown, if a firearm started life as a:

Handgun: Temporary changes to rifle are allowed, and then can be returned to handgun. When used as a rifle, must fully comply to barrel length(16" min) and OAL (26" min) standards.

Rifle: Cannot have a barrel length less than 16" or an OAL less than 26" without applying for and being approved to make an SBR. Cannot be converted to pistol configuration without $200 tax stamp. (The resulting firearm would be a "weapon made from a rifle")

Shotgun: Must always have barrel 18" or longer, and OAL of 26" or longer. Even if the barrel is replaced with a rifled barrel, because it started life as a shotgun, it still requires a minimum of 18" barrel length, even if using a rifled barrel chambered in a standard rifle or pistol caliber. Any barrel length less than 18" would require a $200 tax stamp.

"Firearm": This is the category the shotguns that leave the factory with pistol grips only fall into. These are an odd duck. Because they aren't classified as "shotguns" by the ATF, they can be made, essentially, into handguns, requiring only an "AOW" stamp. If an SOT makes the AOW, the transfer is $5. To make an AOW yourself, the "making tax" is still $200.

[leadman]

Last time I spoke with ATF here in Phoenix about the Contender/Encore conversion the agent mentioned they (ATF) were trying to determine what to do about the AR pistols. Since the AR is now made as a rifle and a pistol there was, the agent said, the possibility that it could be legal to convert an AR just like we do with the Contender/Encores.
I have not heard if a ruling has been released on these yet.
It is for sure murky waters and it depends on who you speak with in the government what info you get.

[WilliamDahl]

fipb@atf.gov ?

Yeah, I know that you shouldn't ask questions of the government that you might not really want to know the answer to, but I figured I would give it a try since I'm pretty sure that the shotgun whose stock I want to refinish would still be over 26" (barely) with the stock removed. Anyway, after about a week or so, I got an answer from the ATF and a person at usdoj.gov said:



Merely assembling and disassembling a shotgun does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same shotgun in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts).

-Firearms Technology Branch.