.38 special + P ++

[gamma50]

no more

[williamwaco]

This question is asked by virtually every new reloader on the planet.

Here is my answer:

Please

Please

Please

Please

Please

Don't do it.

Sooner or later, when you least expect it, and when you have completely forgotten about it, one of those loads will find itw way into a .38 Special.

[dragon813gt]

No. Magnum loads in magnum brass only. I don't even load +P in special brass as a just in case. While I'm very anal about labeling everything. I have found some random rounds that are unknowns. This is the potential problem.

[USAFrox]

I sometimes load regular .38 spl in cases marked +P, but not the other way around. Safe to go down in power, but not the other way around.

[Outpost75]

Max. load with 125-gr. JHP with Unique for. 38 Special+P is 6 grains.

[gamma50]

ideas

[leftiye]

Anybody know why Lyman has two crimp grooves on their 378156? It was/is to seat out the boolits in .38 brass and load .357 loads in them. Used ta was standard practice. Did I miss something? +P or standard cases BTW, modern .38 cases are just short .357s. +P .38 brass is no different, just marked different. Do use a good means of identifying these loads as was mentioned. Red primers are good.

[Forrest r]

:coffeecom

[Larry Gibson]

Anybody know why Lyman has two crimp grooves on their 378156? It was/is to seat out the boolits in .38 brass and load .357 loads in them. Used ta was standard practice. Did I miss something? +P or standard cases BTW, modern .38 cases are just short .357s. +P .38 brass is no different, just marked different. Do use a good means of identifying these loads as was mentioned. Red primers are good.

+1.

We load several other cartridges to different levels of performance both handgun and rifle. Why should the 38 SPL now be different?

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

A sure fire way to get the boys to bring the brass back is announce you don't have any to send out and they will need to buy new ammo . A few times of blasting like that will give them a new appreciation for the man supporting their habit . Might get you a few more cases too !

Larry is right , how many of us have tried the Skeeter Skelton load with the Lyman 358156 bullet for out magnum revolvers ? With that said I don't load thirty-eights hotter than plus "P" so that just in case it gets into my weakest gun I won't have trouble . For the little bit I use magnum loads I bought enough magnum cases to cover that . Performance isn't a bad thing as long as one is good at record keeping .

Jack

[Lonegun1894]

I have done this and still do, but I also refuse to own a .38 Spl. Several .357s though. It is safe IF you make sure these loads never end up in anything not strong enough for them, as has been said. My way is by NOT having any .38s, but I can't say I have never seen any that I wasn't tempted by. I also don't have any handguns in .45 Colt that aren't Rugers, for the same reason.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

The strange headstamps are military brass.

Yes, the Military did and does use 38 Special ammunition. It is issued to Air Force pilots on a regular basis.
The brass itself is heavier and the primer is almost always crimped per milspecs. The brass is excellent
reloadable brass but does need some care and feeding with regard to different case capacity, not great
but enough that a max load can be quite dangerous.

NOT HEAVY ENOUGH TO MAGNUMIZE THE 38 ! ! ! !

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[376Steyr]

I use lots of the 358156 "Skelton Loads". The boxes are so marked, and the extra band of lead sticking above the crimping groove lets me identify them easily. That said, I never let anybody else handle them, on the grounds that they could somehow wind up in a .38. If someone steals some from me, that will be their problem.

[gamma50]

done and doner

[Char-Gar]

I have a lot .38 special brass ,a lot marked LC 79, LC 80, this brass is tuff brass, a lot thicker than Winchester or Remington, all had crimped primers. and I found 1k 125 gr. Winchester JHP's.
now .357 brass is way up in price and since I have all this brass and bullets and don't intend to ever give to anyone else and will mark boxes saying "not for any .38 special firearms", I thought I could load this very close to magnum loads with 9 grs Unique . would this be safe in a Ruger
GP 100 or SP 100?
:?:

That is a truly bad idea. It matter not, if others do it. Lots of folks drive drunk, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

[Grump]

Max. load with 125-gr. JHP with Unique for. 38 Special+P is 6 grains.

Yeah, I was going to mention some concerns about that charge. In my yout', I misunderstood my Dad's description of a certain fixed charge bar and loaded 9 grains of Unique in .357 cases under 146-gr JHPs. You know how Unique is supposed to have a bit of muzzle flash??? Well, these bad overloads had a little 6-inch long carrot-shaped and colored muzzle flash in the deep dark, flattened primers worse than anything I had ever personally done*, and gave me some first-hand experience with oh so slightly sticky extraction in an N-frame Smith.

Yes, 125-gr pills are that much lighter, but .38 Spec. cases are also that much shorter. I'll run QuickLOAD numbers for you if you want, but the only way I could grudgingly approve such a venture (IF the pressure numbers come out right) would be if you loaded up that day's ammo, and shot it ALL the same day, AND counted cases in and out like the OR people count surgical sponges.

Then it would be up to you to decide whether the fact that a whole team of professionals leaves a sponge insidda some unlucky somebuddy something like 10 or so times per year in California alone still leaves you confident that you will never, ever miss one of those uber-hot .38s.

[dragon813gt]

why is there so much disagreement about loading .38s hot?

It's not as much disagreement as it is preference. There is nothing wrong w/ loading a 38 case to max published values. The max charge for Unique w/ a 125 grain JHP is 6 grains. Stepping it up three grains is just asking for trouble.

[Grump]

Fact is, I've read some firsthand reports from an almost-famous gun destroyer in the Pacific Northwest which indicates that *MODERN* S&W .38 Specials really can handle Magnum-level loads, at least in the K frames. Don't know/remember if he ever tried to blow up a J frame...

Also don't know if he ever did similar testing on Colt revolvers.

A lot of this is how much you trust yourself, your family, your friends who might be tempted to snitch a round or two or a box of your special Specials, and especially the people who will handle your estate (inclusive of the wiser approach of putting the stuff in a trust and avoiding probate).

Anyone who steals ammo from you (lightweight "friends" friends possibly excepted) deserves to have the gun they are shooting blow up on them. Prove your labeling and not even a Phillie lawyer could win a case against you, even if not labeled in Spaniardish.

[dubber123]

I recall sectioning .38/.357 cases and seeing no difference beyond length. If they are being fired in a .357 magnum chambered firearm, I fail to see how loading to a safe .357 magnum pressure is going to amount to much.

[dbosman]

The above reference to labeling reminded me to pass on the information that off the shelf label stock only stick for ten years or so. That's in temperature and humidity controlled archive conditions. The adhesive breaks down.

I work in a reference library. Even with tens of thousands of electronic data sources, we still label a about half million items a year.

[Larry Gibson]

Ponder me this; if loading a 38 SPL beyond its standard pressure is "bad" for use in a 357 revolver then how is it good to have +P++ loads for the 44SPL in stronger Ruger revolvers? or 2 stronger levels of 45 Colt loads for use in stronger revolvers? Or 2 or 3 stronger levels of 45-70 loads for stronger guns? Or the higher psi loads for the 6.5×55, 7×57 and other older cartridges for use in stronger "modern" actions?

Larry Gibson

[dragon813gt]

It's personal preference. And there have been accidents from shooting Ruger only loads in a non Ruger. If you're confident you're labeling is sufficient then load to your hearts desire. I prefer use a little caution to stay on the safe side.

Personally, if you have a 357 just use 357 cases. Prevents possible cleaning issues from using 38 special cases. And there are no concerns w/ hot loads unless you push beyond published loads.

[gamma50]

revolvers.

[Grump]

well that's what I thought about .38 special brass.357s are .135 longer to prevent putting it in a .38, and I don't own any .38s.,I figure if I want or have to shoot .38s I can. why is there so much disagreement about loading .38s hot?

Gamma50, there is really little concern with the safety of .357-level loads in .38 Special cases being fired in *.357* firearms. The factories themselves came close to this before introduction of the .357 Magnum with what was then called the ".38-44 load". N frame S&Ws were the only intended firing platform for them. Your last post hints at that past practice. I know it's been done before because I have read Old Elmer's and Phil Sharpe's writings on the subject. Even have 1950s copies of Sharpe's reloading hardbound book and his "The Rifle in America" book, plus reading gunrag articles from Keith.

The ape-**** "Nononononono!!!!!" is out of concern that one or more of those badly overloaded for .38 Special cases and loads will find its way into an older, or weaker, or older AND weaker .38 Special, with potentially disastrous results.

Except some of us here really don't care what happens to thieves. "Hey, dude, want some hot ammo for that hot sixgun you just stole? Only twice the price of ammo at Wally World, but no paper trail, either."

Evil grin.

[leftiye]

It's personal preference. And there have been accidents from shooting Ruger only loads in a non Ruger. If you're confident you're labeling is sufficient then load to your hearts desire. I prefer use a little caution to stay on the safe side.

Personally, if you have a 357 just use 357 cases. Prevents possible cleaning issues from using 38 special cases. And there are no concerns w/ hot loads unless you push beyond published loads.

Exactly, Those naysayers especially. Solely their personal preference. Nothing need be said beyond what Larry said, plus the injunction to mark the primers and label the boxes. Oh, and pay attention.

[Char-Gar]

Ponder me this; if loading a 38 SPL beyond its standard pressure is "bad" for use in a 357 revolver then how is it good to have +P++ loads for the 44SPL in stronger Ruger revolvers? or 2 stronger levels of 45 Colt loads for use in stronger revolvers? Or 2 or 3 stronger levels of 45-70 loads for stronger guns? Or the higher psi loads for the 6.5×55, 7×57 and other older cartridges for use in stronger "modern" actions?

Larry Gibson

I don't think it is "bad" per se. The issue is the reliability of data when you go to far down this trail. Case in point is the "Skeeter" load of 358156 over 13.5/2400 in 38 Special cases. Of course the issue is which groove is the bullet crimped.

Ed Harris reports that when he was a Ruger, they pressure tested (lab equipment) this "Skeeter" load and it gave .357 Magnum proof pressures. It is hot stuff, but didn't seem that hot in my sixguns, but I realize the potential is there for some over the top pressures as the variables set in. There are as you know so many variables such as case make (commercial or GI), case type (regular or wadcutter) bullet type, alloy and size, and so on.

Like others I have shot the Skeeter load, but I think twice about it now. Skeeter did lots of things "back in the day" I would not do today. He like 15.5/2400 under 358156 (solid) and 16/2400 under 358156 (HP)
in 357 Magnum cases. These loads come right out of Lyman 41 Handbook.

You know about pressure testing and understand data that old loads should be suspect unless checked again with the equipment we have today.

Throw in the general state of ignorance about these things that are so pervasive on this board, and the mob that like to jump in to answer any question with antidotal information and you are setting the stage for problems.

I take the approach that, if a fellow is so inexperienced, he has to come to this board for permission to do something outside the box, then he should not do it. It he wants to play on the red line, he should wait until he has accumulated enough experience and knowledge to do his own thinking.

That is so much posturing, blather, shared ignorance and such around this board, I take a very conservative approach to this matter. If a guy is in my shop and I can supervise his loading and tweak his thinking, things work very different.

I have been handloading since 1958 and have never damaged a gun yet in a million reloads. However, as we look at this and other boards and read the number of "Kabooms" report, it send up a red flag about how much attention people are paying to these matters. I don't want to contribute, to any degree, to somebody injuring themselves or some poor sap unlucky enough to be standing close to them when they pull the pin on the grenade in their hands.

________________________________

Years ago, the Keith load of 358249/12.5/2400 (38 Special cases) was touted by the Sage of Salmon as just the thing. Both Kent Bellah, and Ken Waters found this load to be way over the top. Bellah has his N frame Smith drop open the cylinder after a cylinderful of this stuff. Waters and Bellah both felt 11/2400 was max under this bullet in Special cases.

[Char-Gar]

speer 13 manual has 125 gr. bullet with unique 9.6 grs. , I supposed I could lighten load to 8 grs. and see what the primer and muzzle blast is like , and see if there is any case separation, or ring near rim. I have no more .357 brass and the price is $32 for 100. if people would bring my brass back I'd have a couple 1,000.and for the person who steals my ammo which would be my kids the only firearms they have are the ones I bought them.ALL Ruger Gps Sps blackhack in .357 magnum, as for anyone else who steals and sticks it in a .38 then they get what they got coming, if I load .38s hot I warn everyone and try to hide my ammo. and that don't work to well, either does asking them to stop taking ammo. maybe they need a lesson, but won't do it. I asked if its possible to load .38s to mag pressure, I'm really sure its been done before by Elmer Keith and Phil Sharpe. D.B. Wesson who designed the .357. and Colt Smith& Wesson who made stronger revolvers.

Two questions:

1. What do you want to kill, that you feel the need to push a 38 Special case that hard?

2. How many do you need to kill, that you need to load this in quality?

3. Why did you come here to ask about what you have ready decided to do?

4. Have you even seen a video or read about a man on a ledge and people around him telling him to jump? The folks telling you to do something don't always have your best interest at heart.

[gamma50]

velocity

[Mk42gunner]

I have thought about loading magnum level loads in .38 Special milsurp brass, mine is WRA, and decided against it. Magnum brass is easily obtained and inexpensive, at least before the latest panic.

One thing I do not see mentioned by gamma50 is the overall length of the cartridges. I also do not see mention of working up the load to the level of performance desired.

For just plinking, there isn't anything wrong with a .38 Special load in a .38 Special brass.

Personally, I would tell the kids "No brass, no ammo."

Robert

[leftiye]

As for having gamma's best interest at heart speak only for yourself Chargar. You impugn our honor, sir.

FWIW unless you are involved with some very old, and even then except with the undersized "pocket" 38 specials, virtually all of them are proofed to take as much as the loads mentioned here as hot 38 loads (while not to take .357 loads). I've seen Colt officer's models thrive on mild .357 loads.

Not trying to start a fertilizer throwin' match here, jest sayin' that most things are magnified by the lack of actual knowledge that we/some have as to actual strength. I doubt a catastrophic blowup would occur in any but the weaker 38s if fed a .357 cartridge, though the gun might be ruined. Strengths of guns are widely mis guessed all the time here. Why should I for instance worry about some unknown person getting my load and putting it into his collectible 1905 4th change S&W? While the naysayers are technically right (if we don't load ANY ammo nobody will get hurt), and have a right to their opinions, Reality lies elsewhere. There's a difference between logic that totally avoids a certain thing, and actual knowledge of something. Also between avoidance without knowledge and what is reasonable.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=leftiye;2364362]As for having gamma's best interest at heart speak only for yourself Chargar. You impugn our honor, sir."

Wow...that sounds serious. Was that a slap with the glove to meet you on the Field of Honor for pistols at ten paces? I don't do swords anymore. I have not seen my copy of the Code Duelo since my last move. So, do I need to find a 2nd. or what?

You need a hobby, a vacation, a nap, a chill pill, a ham sandwich or something. This isn't life, it is only an internet gun board for Pete's sake.

Please note, I was not one of those who raised the issue of hot 38 Special loads getting into a weak revolver. That is not a concern of mine.

[45 2.1]

leftiye-
Charles is doing the exact thing he often accuses me of.......... It sounds like he knows more than anybody else on this subject and some others. Ignoring people like that does work.............

[waksupi]

The board DOES have a children's section.

[Char-Gar]

I don't intend to kill anyone I have the 125JHPs that make very good self defense load, and I don't feel I'm pushing a .38 special case over any pressure that a .357 can take, and I'm not using some cheap **** brass,
it is military and is made a lot heftier than any commercial brass.and I thought that maybe someone does these same loads, or some feed back on loads like these. and if someone told me to put 50 grs. of Bulleye in behind this bullet I would really think they were nuts or trying to kill some one.

Well, that didn't work did it. Every time I try the "Socratic" method, I always become so subtle that folks miss the question. Let me just be direct...

Do you really need to load stuff that hot? Regular +P stuff is easier to hit with, easier on the ears, uses less powder and doesn't stress the shooter, gun or brass. This is just practice ammo right?

A couple of items of clarification, to wit;

1. I asked "what" you needed to kill, not "who" you needed to kill. I chose my words with care.

2. I have about 5,000 USGI 38 Special cases in my shop, along with 10,000 commercial cases. Thusly I am very familiar with them having loaded them since 1965 or so. The thicker brass does not necessarily mean they are stronger, or more suitable for high pressure loads. The thicker brass requires a reduction to powder charge to have to same pressure as you would have in a commercial case. i.e. the same charge will produce higher pressure in a GI case than in a commercial case. Something to consider.

3. I have now over a dozen Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers in 38 Special and seven more in 357 Magnum, and have had a couple dozen more over the years. I have been loading these rounds since 1962, and have loaded at least 250,000 rounds. Therefore I have some experience with the capabilities of various vintage and frame size revolvers chambered for these rounds.

I have no desire to convince you to do or not do anything. You are a grown man and can do as you wish. My counsel has been given and you can accept or reject it. It really doesn't matter which you do.

Best wishes for a long and safe life...

[bob208]

358429 was made to load .38-44 loads in .38 spl cases. I shot many of them out of a .357 Ruger in the early 70's when .357 brass was hard to find.

read sketer skelton. he loaded many hot loads in .38 cases.

[GabbyM]

There is load data for 38-44 loads for use in the N frame Smith & Wesson.

Something like the 5grain of Unique under a 155 grain boolit won't blow up a 38 gun and is no gallery load.
It's more than I shoot in my 38's. I have a few 38's and only one 357. Only thing that makes sense in my house is to place the 357 loads in 357 brass. Others situations will differ. I also have a closet full of forty year old loads. It's comforting for me to know I never hot-rodded any of them.

[Forrest r]

Well, been following this thread & all's I can say is, "Good Lord, please be careful!!!"

I also ended up with a question. I thought the bullets that had multiple crimp grooves had them to make the oal of the load shorter or longer? I also thought that they did nothing for 38spl's but let shorts cylinder'd revolvers in the 357's be able to use them. Is that correct or just a myth?

Again, please be careful!!! I'm sure you know how to work loads up & will find a +p++++/357 load using 38spl cases. I'm just concerned that some of them might find there way into someones hands that have a cheap beater 38spl that wasn't even designed to use p+ ammo & end's up injured.

[smkummer]

I load 38-44 loads in cases marked +P+ and I mark the cartridge container that they are to be used in official police, officers model, trooper and .357 chambered guns. That currently is the only high powered load that COULD cause damage if it was fired in a alloy agent. I used to have some Ruger 45 Colt loads for my Anaconda but I fear if I pass on too soon, someone in the family would use those in one of my Colt SAA and that could be bad. The Winchester military 38 special brass had only a mild crimped in primer that did not require it to be removed upon reloading. The LC 38 special brass that I have requires that the heavy crimp be removed.

[45 2.1]

Keith's and Skelton's loads came from a different era. They had heavy frame guns to use, plenty of them along with some weak ones. Handgun brass from the 30's, 40's and early 50's wasn't the best stuff and most wouldn't hold a crimp as well as brass since the 70's. If you know what an early SH (solid head) marked case looks like inside, you'll understand. They were lighter and had more room in them. Keith would have used them more the Skelton though and Skelton used his loads in the 357 when he got one because 357 cases were hard to get (that's from his writings). Read a compilation of both men's works to get an idea of what they did.

[Char-Gar]

Well, been following this thread & all's I can say is, "Good Lord, please be careful!!!"

I also ended up with a question. I thought the bullets that had multiple crimp grooves had them to make the oal of the load shorter or longer? I also thought that they did nothing for 38spl's but let shorts cylinder'd revolvers in the 357's be able to use them. Is that correct or just a myth?

Again, please be careful!!! I'm sure you know how to work loads up & will find a +p++++/357 load using 38spl cases. I'm just concerned that some of them might find there way into someones hands that have a cheap beater 38spl that wasn't even designed to use p+ ammo & end's up injured.

As I understand the issue of the two crimp grooves on 358156 is to (1) allow the bullet to be crimped in the top one for 357 cases in 357 revolvers, or (2)38 Special cases in 38 Special revolvers. The bullet could be crimped in in the bottom groove (3) in 38 Special cases for use in .357 Magnum revolvers giving the same overall lengths as no 1 above. This enabled the bullet to enter the throat of the 357 Magnum revolver without a jump from the shorter Special cases.

This bullet was designed by Ray Thompson and has been perhaps the most successful cast bullet design for use in the 357 Magnum sixgun. NOTE: Thompson did not design the bullets to be seated out in the 38 Special case in order to give the same powder capacity as the longer magnum case.

Unfortunately, it didn't take long for folks to discover that seated out in Special cases, they did in fact have the same powder capacity as the longer magnum case, and that is just what they did. They fly in the ointment is there are so many types, ages and makes of Special cases and none of them were designed to hold magnum pressure. Do, people do it? Yes, they do. Do people suffer bad consequences? Not to often, but ruptured and split cases are not uncommon. Gas pressure does get turned loose in the cylinder when this happens.

The long vs. short cylinder thing most likely comes from 358429 which was designed by Elmer Keith for the 38 Special and it works well for that use. When the 357 Magnum came along in 1935 folks started to use it in those revolvers. That resent no trouble in the Colt New Service and Colt SSA as their cylinders were longer than the Smith and Wesson 357 Magnum (later Model 27). In the Smith the bullet has to be seated deeper and crimped over the shoulder to fit into cylinder. This deep seating causes an increase in pressure vis-a-vi the shorter Thompson bullet (358156) which had less bullet body in the case.

I hope that is not to confusing, the bottom line is;

1. 358156 was designed for use in the 357 Magnum cylinder (Colt or Smith) with either Special or Magnum cases. But it was not designed or intended to enable the loader to use Magnum charges in Special cases.

2. 358429 was designed for the Special case, and does not work all that well in the 357 Magnum sixgun. It will work, but there are better choices.

[Grump]

Gee whiz, Wally!!!!

Just when it looked like sensible heads had all made their cases intelligently on either side of the opposing "go ahead" and the "*I* wouldn't do it and ask that you don't", and there was a certain level of adult-style agreeing to disagree and letting each other pursue our own preference, we get a mini-argument going!

Give our esteemed OP gamma50 a break! Some of us (including his sometimes a bit-less-than-considerate offspring) choose to "plink" with full-power loads. Just 'cause YOU don't/won't/don't like to do that, don't give you no license to piss all over the idea.

His house, his rules, his preferences and leave him be.

There are some valid points on *published* old stuff from Skeeter being beyond-spec loads even for .357 Mag standards. Not every post the last 24 hours has honestly acknowledged that, but I'm sure that gamma50 and Leftiye and Char-Gar have indeed caught all the implications even if not directly addressed in their later posts.

IME, QuickLOAD can indeed predict pressures and velocities quite well IF proper tweaks to the powder's burn rate are entered AFTER entering case capacity, case length, barrel length, AND actual chrono'd velocities from a preliminary test session. That puts a person closer to the "in MY firearm" truth of the situation. Once that is done, then how far to back off from the old-data 9 grains of Unique load can be reasonably estimated.

The "burden of adequate precautions" for what gamma50 wants to do is light enough that any of the potential harms from those of US (myself included) who are reluctant to say "okay, no problem" would really fall more squarely on the stupidity of anyone downstream who is stupid enough to not believe what the labels say. I do recommend red-marking the primers so loose cases can be identified, and putting a legend of "Red Primer = OVERLOAD for .38 Special--use in .357 Magnum handguns ONLY" or some similar language on labels all over the ammo storage spot, the gun boxes, and whatever is likely to be hauled out to the shooting area. Or he could just personally supervise the distribution and firing of those specially-marked boxes of ammo Goodness and trust his kids. They might not have had the presence of mind to collect the brass in months and years past, but they may well have the intelligence to be trusted with blue-pill .38 Special cases. He will know that better than any of us, and I for one will trust his judgment. He has received good information here and can now make up his own mind after proper final testing of the loads he works up.

gamm50: PLEASE know that in my opinion, the only "pressure sign" worth "reading" even at .357 Mag levels is the velocity of the projectile with that powder and that bullet and that barrel length, vs. what a GOOD source like QuickLOAD says. There is almost never a safe load that exceeds what a full-power factory load delivers. That said, a .38 Special case with its smaller powder chamber will reach max pressure at a little bit slower velocity than an otherwise-identical load in a .357 Mag case. IME, losing a full 100 FPS is always more than enough to get well below max spec pressures.

Chill time now, everyone???

[Larry Gibson]

Char-Gar

Simple point of clarification; I have pressure tested the 358156 with Skeeter's loads in 38 SPL and 357 cases. 13 gr 2400 in the SPL cases gives a MAP in magnum territory but does not get close to the SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum. The 15.5 and 16 gr loads in magnum cases are at the SAAMI MAP psi level. All are very good loads of which I do use in my Ruger Security Six and Contender.

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Larry,

Were your pressure tests with radial copper, or piezoelectric?

Early on before the industry standardized on their transducer setup, the government labs tried several different gages and methods. In 5.56 at least, there were problems with calibration. From an enginneering and R%D standpoint the BRL "minihat" seemed more reliable, but CIP and SAAMI wanted to use the conformal Kistler type, because it was more convenient for production.

[dragon813gt]

So out of curiosity. How did you measure the pressure?

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar

Simple point of clarification; I have pressure tested the 358156 with Skeeter's loads in 38 SPL and 357 cases. 13 gr 2400 in the SPL cases gives a MAP in magnum territory but does not get close to the SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum. The 15.5 and 16 gr loads in magnum cases are at the SAAMI MAP psi level. All are very good loads of which I do use in my Ruger Security Six and Contender.

Larry Gibson

I have never pressure tested anything, not even flatulence. All I know on the subject is what my betters tell me. I will let you and Outpost75 do all the science and tech talk and I will go to bed.

[Grump]

I have never pressure tested anything, not even flatulence. [snip] I will let you and Outpost75 do all the science and tech talk and I will go to bed.

Best idea I've heard all day, sir. Shalom.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't load past "book" +P pressures in 38 Special ammunition, and it has been some time since I did that. +P's only role in my shooting was to duplicate the duty 38 Special carry loads, and I stopped carting around a 38 Special in harm's way some years back. It is purely a "sporter" for me now, and standard pressure in full flower does a fine job of rolling up jackrabbits or thumping coyotes. If push came to shove, these loads (#358429 at about 875-900 FPS, 5"-6" barrel) wouldn't do a 2-legged varmint a lot of good either--but that is not their intent.

Magnumizing a 38 Special makes little sense, with three 357 Magnums on staff. I do load the 357 pretty warmly for a Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5", but ALL are marked on the base with red Hi-Liter after each loading. These are Doug Wesson 1935-level loads +5% past that. They see NO USE in my 686 x 4" or the pre-27 N-frame. Doug Wesson-level is as warm as I go in the latter 2 wheelguns, and only about 10% of their shooting at that.

[Larry Gibson]

Oehler M43, Toshiba laptop and with the strain gauge over the chamber on a Contender barrel located as per SAAMI specification. Probably 20+ factory 38/357 loads test as per SAAMI test procedure as "reference".

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Oehler M43, Toshiba laptop and with the strain gauge over the chamber on a Contender barrel located as per SAAMI specification. Probably 20+ factory 38/357 loads test as per SAAMI test procedure as "reference".

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Oehler M43, Toshiba laptop and with the strain gauge over the chamber on a Contender barrel located as per SAAMI specification. Probably 20+ factory 38/357 loads test as per SAAMI test procedure as "reference".

Larry Gibson

Oehler 43 is good setup. Not sure how bore cross-sectional area and throating of the TC barrel compares to the standard P/V test barrel, but if you have good history on your reference ammo it will yield useful results, though perhaps a bit lower P/T averages and gentler slope on the curve than the standard test barrel.

[9.3X62AL]

Char-Gar's comments about Lyman #358429 not being the best choice for the 357 Magnum must have been rattling around in my head for a number of years on some level. My "go-to" 357 boolits have always been either #358156 or #358430/heavier version @ 195 grains. #358430 got some 38 Special time, as well. ACCURATE in both calibers, from 700-1200 FPS. #358477 was and is solely a 38 Special and (now) a 38 S&W bullet, and I've only been casting #358429 for about 5-6 years.......it came to the party rather late, and has been entirely a 38 Special missile so far. I just finished a lot of about 400 357 Magnums and 600 38 Specials in the past week--in 357, half of those got 125 grain JHPs atop 17.5 grains of 2400 as carry-load (Fed #357B) duplicators, the other half got #358156 atop 13.5 grains of 2400--this matches our old carry load, the W-W 158 grain JHP. They just shoot too well not to load, even if their factory counterparts have been retired from service. Truth to tell, it is hard to find a "bad" 357 Magnum loading.

The 38s got split 3 ways......200 each got 3.0 grains of WW-231 under Lyman #358432 or Remington swaged HBWCs, and the remaining 200 got 4.5 grains of Unique under #358429. This last is alleged to be a "+P" loading, and it does clock about 900-925 FPS from a 5" Model 10. These don't run in my Colt Officer's Model Special c. 1949. They hit right on the money from the 5" Model 10 at 25 and 50 yards, and if I do my part single-action I can keep all hits on a steel coyote cut-out at my range site at 100 yards, single-action and slowly fired. Sight alignment MUST be perfect, and placed at the top of the cut-out's shoulder. It doesn't hurt a bit that the revolver in question has one of the nicest actions in both double- and single-action I've ever used.

The wadcutters listed above are the first such bullets I've loaded in a long time. Those are for the Colt OMS primarily, but the S&W won't be shut out entirely from the soft stuff. I want to compare ranging ability of the WCs past 50 yards, the HBWCs have a rep for tumbling out past 60+ yards. I want to see if rifling twist makes a difference (Colt vs. S&W), or whether the heavier solid WCs stay point-forward better than do the hollowed-out target slugs.

[Forrest r]

Thank you for the explaining the difference between the bullets char-gar. I have the same double crimp groove on the 359640 mihec bullets/mold.

[9.3X62AL]

Not meaning to stray TOO FAR from the OP's question here.......but S&W took some time to get the 357 Magnum "right". Their original N-frame ideation used a relatively short cylinder similar to that found on their 38-44 series revolvers, and in my examples to date (Models 28, 27, and now pre-27) Lyman #358429 seated to crimp into the groove provided would be overlength for the cylinder's charge holes. Curiously, the Models 19 and 66--much lighter-framed variants--used a cylinder length longer than that found on their N-frame counterparts. Nice, as far as it goes--but there wasn't enough strength in the platform to exploit the increased powder capacity. FINALLY, in 1980 or thereabouts S&W got their act together with the L-frame series revolvers in the 581/681/586/686 models, combining cylinder length with adequate strength for an uncompromised 357 Magnum platform. The spirits of Springfield, MA move in strange ways.

[Char-Gar]

Some months back Lynn of Dry Creek Bullets send me some 358429 to test here in the South Texas heat. He was playing with a new lube and wanted see if it would take shipping and not run in the heat as it was rather soft. It proved to ship just fine, not run in the heat and did a super job of leaving a clean unleaded barrel.

I loaded some of these in 38 Special (12.5/2400) and others in 357 Mag cases with a higher charge of 2400. I fired these in my Smith Model 28 and had to seat the bullet to crimp over the bullet shoulder to get them not to stick out of front of the cylinder. These were the first I have tried in the 357 Mag case, when they did the same thing.

I have a four cavity Lyman 358156 and a single cavity HP version of them same that are my "go to" bullets for top end 357 Magnum loads. Mostly I just load down to 13.5/2400 and use the old Cramer #12 plain base bullet. I really have no need to load hot anymore.

I do load some hot 38 Specials for use in my 38-44 Heavy Duty and 357 Magnums. I use the 358156 HP over 7.5/AA5. this give about 1,100 fps out of a 4" bbl. These loads are not going to destroy a good modern K frame, but will shorten the service life with continued use.

Mostly I load many, many 38 Specials with 3.5/Bulleye over any good 150 to 160 grain plain base cast bullets, my favorite being 358311 RN. This is a good old fashion duplicate of the old police service round and will shoot to the sights of most any Colt or Smith and Wesson service pistol from back in the day. Fun to shoot, accurate all get out and easy on vintage sixguns.

In spite of it's itty bitty sight, my old eyes and being made in 1913 this old Smith M&P hits the target like a JDAM bomb. I just can't seem to miss. Best $90.00 I ever spent.

[Larry Gibson]

Oehler 43 is good setup. Not sure how bore cross-sectional area and throating of the TC barrel compares to the standard P/V test barrel, but if you have good history on your reference ammo it will yield useful results, though perhaps a bit lower P/T averages and gentler slope on the curve than the standard test barrel.

Not a gentler slope as such, just slightly, very slighty, lower pressure readings as the TC barrel dimensions are not to the minimum dimensions that SAAMI test barrels are. Pretty close though which is why the reference ammunition is used as even tthe SAAMI test barrels differ dimensionally and give different psi readings.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

I hope I look that good at age 100, though I doubt such longevity is in the cards. What a fine, old sixgun.......I'll bet it has some stories to tell, and I would enjoy hearing them.

[onceabull]

I made the mistake of value pricing a very nice 5" S&W md.10-? a number of years ago because it was a "made-up" revolver.( Original 4 incher rebarreled with factory 5" but not a S&W factory change..Haven't found one of similar quality YET at twice my idea of value...I tell myself it was a senior moment, but that isn't quite a Balm of Gilead remedy... Onceabull :cry:

[Char-Gar]

I made the mistake of value pricing a very nice 5" S&W md.10-? a number of years ago because it was a "made-up" revolver.( Original 4 incher rebarreled with factory 5" but not a S&W factory change..Haven't found one of similar quality YET at twice my idea of value...I tell myself it was a senior moment, but that isn't quite a Balm of Gilead remedy... Onceabull :cry:

I can't resist. Here is a 1931 S&W 5" Military and Police (38 Special). This handgun is the smoothest DA handgun I have ever held in my hand and shoots like a house-a-fire. This old girl is 82 years old and never had a face lift.

[9.3X62AL]

I was the grateful benefactor of Onceabull's senior moment, and that 5" Model 10 has the best action I've ever worked on a service-grade revolver. It shoots WONDERFULLY, as well. I'm glad to have it back in the safe, it was on hiatus at one of the daughters' homes to repel boarders. It took a Glock 23 swap to oblige its return. That Model 10's return to the fold prompted me to haul out a wadcutter mould (Lyman #358432) that hasn't been warmed for years and to pour a 1# coffee can of castings. Some of those were assembled into cases last week, atop 3.0 grains of WW-231. These await a moderation in weather for test-drive in the 5".

[BruceB]

That Onceabull is a caution, isn't he?

Some time back, he offered me an AS NEW Model 15 S&W (K-frame .38, 4" barrel)and I was SORELY tempted. MY wife and daughter had given me a new-condition 4" Model 19 for my birthday just a few weeks earlier, and I simply couldn't justify (in my own mind) another K-frame that was so similar..... even at the attractive price Bill was asking.

What I didn't know was that I would have nightmares for years afterwards, wondering why in blazes I didn't buy that lovely little .38.... I STILL have that problem from time to time.

Onceabull is truly one of those "pushers" we hear about.

[Char-Gar]

That Onceabull is a caution, isn't he?

Some time back, he offered me an AS NEW Model 15 S&W (K-frame .38, 4" barrel)and I was SORELY tempted. MY wife and daughter had given me a new-condition 4" Model 19 for my birthday just a few weeks earlier, and I simply couldn't justify (in my own mind) another K-frame that was so similar..... even at the attractive price Bill was asking.

What I didn't know was that I would have nightmares for years afterwards, wondering why in blazes I didn't buy that lovely little .38.... I STILL have that problem from time to time.

Onceabull is truly one of those "pushers" we hear about.

Did you say Model 19? Did you say Model 15? I just can't help myself. I do so crave these fine Smith and Wesson sixguns.

[gamma50]

settled on 4 grs. W231 with Lees 158 gr. TL SWC, not hot but not exact to reload info. I'll save my 125 gr. HPs for mag brass, if the brass ever goes down in price.no point arguing with great minds like yours.

[Whiterabbit]

OK.....

Now that this thread has settled a bunch, I'll creep out into the open and admit I do this, with very specific caveats. Here are the details:
the case is 357 mag
the load is 357 max
the load is a 357 max maxed out.
The gun is a handi rifle and can handle it.
----MOST IMPORTANT: I am confident the loads will never find their way into a revolver, ever. Why? well:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59324&d=1358906826

cylinder length 357 mag is on the far left, next to the far left is the 357 max load in a 357 mag case. The cylinder will never close, since the bullet will stick out about a half an inch. There is no need to worry about accidentally putting this round in any revolver. It simply will not fit.

I waited a couple weeks to post this, after reading the reaction of the first 10-20 replies in this thread. But I think now might be the appropriate time to admit the experimentation and the obvious caveats that go with it. Clearly, magnumizing a 38 or 357 in this way provides a built-in safety against accidentally putting the case in a gun that can no handle it. And that too was by design.

[Lonegun1894]

Now that is something I was thinking someone would come up with, Whiterabbit, but just had no clue who, and you took it beyond what I was thinking. May I ask bullet weight and velocity? That just seems like it should have some interesting potential, especially in your chosen weapon. I have thought about doing something similar with a .38 Spl case with a bullet heavy enough to make sure it won't chamber in any revolver just to use in my Contender as a .357 "whisper"-type loading. But I think your H&R would be much better for this than anything else without a can on it.

[Whiterabbit]

I can't remember EXACT numbers, so take this with a grain of salt. Pretty sure they are Hornady 250 grain spritzers. velocity in a 16" barrel sawed off handi is 1800 fps. someone on this forum, the first time I mentioned this load, said they quickloads modeled it and it came around to close to 40ksi for the modeled pressure. Dunno if that is true. The charge is H110, and comes up to about .1" off the case mouth. 18-19 grains, somewhere around there. After loading a couple dozen 357 max rounds like this (it looks quite normal) I wondered if I could do the same thing in a 357 mag case. same charge, same primer, same COAL, same everything. Cheap brass. And it was identical downrange, too. What amazes me is for a case full of H110, here is no muzzle flash. none.

Anyways, you guys should know, that that handi rifle is the only gun I own in 357-anything. I do have friends who have 357 revolvers, but we don't do much pistol shooting together, we don't really share ammo, and it wouldn't fit anyways. Noone I know owns a 357 levergun. So I've been comfy trying this. It WOULD be very different if I were playing with a 357 in a 38 case, or experimenting with short OAL high pressure stuff.

[Char-Gar]

No reason to hang back for you are not talking about the same thing as the OP.

He was talking about juicing up 38 Special cases in a handgun.

You are talking about loading rifle ammo using a handgun case.

Not the same thing at all.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm an engineer at heart, and think like one. I honestly don't see the distinction, minus the lack of fit (engineering safety measure, rather than administrative safety measure). Barring that, to me it is the exact same thing.

[Char-Gar]

I'm an engineer at heart, and think like one. I honestly don't see the distinction, minus the lack of fit (engineering safety measure, rather than administrative safety measure). Barring that, to me it is the exact same thing.

I know nothing about engineering and what you said is gibberish to me. I see a clear distinction, but no matter.

[leftiye]

It's nothing (the whole issue). And it don't matter unless you don't keep them segregated. What was that Shakespeare said? But we all know you're right, just ask you.

[Char-Gar]

It's nothing (the whole issue). And it don't matter unless you don't keep them segregated. What was that Shakespeare said? But we all know you're right, just ask you.

Thanks for the validation and no it does not matter if ammo is kept separate. But most things on this board don't have cosmic meaning or really matter much. It is just a bunch of men talking about the trivial stuff they do. It is not a contest of egos, but different points of view on common issues. Everyone is free to express their opinion and experience on this irrelevant stuff, for that is what we do here. I see no need or purpose served to take any of it personal or make any of it personal.

I hold firm opinions on many things in life, from religion, to politics, to government to family relationship to cast bullet shooting and many other things in life. On this, I am not an exception, but rather the rule on this board. I do tend to express those opinions in strong and assertive way, for that is my nature and personality. I guess I should be sorry if you find that offensive, but I truly am not concerned about that. If I am more than you can tolerate. I would suggest a judicious use of the "ignore" feature would be in order. That would be a better option that immature sniping.

[JakeBlanton]

I have a lot .38 special brass ,a lot marked LC 79, LC 80, this brass is tuff brass, a lot thicker than Winchester or Remington, all had crimped primers. and I found 1k 125 gr. Winchester JHP's.
now .357 brass is way up in price and since I have all this brass and bullets and don't intend to ever give to anyone else and will mark boxes saying "not for any .38 special firearms", I thought I could load this very close to magnum loads with 9 grs Unique . would this be safe in a Ruger
GP 100 or SP 100?


As some people have pointed out, there is the safety issue, but that is a matter of personal responsibility and if you are comfortable with the theoretical risks, then don't let that stop you.

Personally, I don't see a difference in doing this vs having rifles chambered in the various .45-70 categories (i.e. Trapdoor, Marlin lever action, and Ruger #1). You definitely would not want to shoot a max load Ruger #1 load out of a Trapdoor rifle. Now, from a practical standpoint though, a .357 mag powder load fired in a .38 special brass will result in higher pressure. If you load the bullet long in the .38 case though, you should end up with basically the same pressure as with the .357 mag.

[Whiterabbit]

Same effective pressure if seated to the same OAL. Afterall, the case capacity will be the same. And you are right, it is identical to the issues presented by the 45/70 categories. Of course, at this point we are not talking about a 38 +p++, we are simply taking a 357 mag load in a 38sp case.

[JakeBlanton]

Same effective pressure if seated to the same OAL. Afterall, the case capacity will be the same. And you are right, it is identical to the issues presented by the 45/70 categories. Of course, at this point we are not talking about a 38 +p++, we are simply taking a 357 mag load in a 38sp case.

Aren't the Ruger SP100 and GP100 that the OP mentioned .357mag revolvers?

[Whiterabbit]

the GP100 is, I'm told it is very tough.

[WilliamDahl]

Same effective pressure if seated to the same OAL. Afterall, the case capacity will be the same. And you are right, it is identical to the issues presented by the 45/70 categories. Of course, at this point we are not talking about a 38 +p++, we are simply taking a 357 mag load in a 38sp case.

There are some of us who own 10mm Glocks that load .40SW brass with 10mm powder charges and 10mm OAL. I would not have a problem doing the same with .38 special brass in a .357 mag revolver. I've never tired it though.

[WilliamDahl]

the GP100 is, I'm told it is very tough.

I just did a quick web search and it appears that there is not an SP100, but rather a SP101 and that both the GP100 and SP101 are available in .357 mag and .38 special.

Looking at the wiki page on the SP101...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_SP101

I see that the KSP-831 (.38 special +P) and KSP--331X (.357 mag) are the same weight. That makes me wonder if perhaps they are the same exact firearm except with a slightly different chamber / cylinder. If so, I can see that being desirable for places that allow a person to own a .38, but not a .357. I believe that is the case in Mexico for its citizens -- or at least it *used* to be (I'm not sure what the leftists down there are doing these days).

[gamma50]

I have a SP-101 .357 mag, if I wrote something else then beat me.

[9.3X62AL]

I have a SP-101 .357 mag, if I wrote something else then beat me.

Nah, I'll pass. Too long of a drive. :)

[JakeBlanton]

I have a SP-101 .357 mag, if I wrote something else then beat me.

Looking back at your post, it appears that you did say SP 100. Consider yourself e-flogged with a wet noodle. :)

81229

I didn't see which calibers you had for the GP 100 and SP 101, but since you say .357 mag in the SP 101, I will assume that it is the same in the GP 100. That would be the only concern as far as I would be concerned. Personally, I would load it at .357 mag length, but that's up to you.

[gamma50]

jake I only have .38 special brass, I can't afford to buy anymore .357 mag brass. if your saying load .38s to magnum levels then what was the argument everyone else made? I can't fit 20 grs. H-110 in a .38 so I was thinking 8.5 grs. of Unique with WSPrimer. I figure fast enough and a lot better than a .38 +p, which it would be a .38 +p+ with a 125 gr. JHP. its my firearm , my life , and I'm not out to kill someone, but if I had to I'd rather have a little more power with these HPs. +p load data drives this bullet at 1,082fps, I'd like at least 1,200 fps with this bullet, other wise I'll just load .38 SWC at .38 pressures till I am able to buy a few k ..357s. tell me what your thinking when you say "I would load it at .357 mag length, but that's up to you." I can't get mag length with a .38.

[Lonegun1894]

Assuming (yes, I know what happens when we assume things) he is doing the same thing I have done, he is talking about seating the bullet out further to get a cartridge over all length that is a .357 Mag length, instead of seating the bullet to the standard .38 Spl OAL. Seating it out to .357 OAL gives the same case capacity as if it had been loaded into a .357 case, and should give the same .357 pressures. And I would bet, at least in some guns, it would prevent the round from being chambered into a .38 revolver too since many here seem to worry about that. Like I said before, I load my standard length .38s to higher pressure, more like .38-44s, but I don't have and refuse to have a .38 Spl weapon in the house--purely due to all the high pressure .38s here posing a danger if one of them was to find its way into a weak design.

[JakeBlanton]

Assuming (yes, I know what happens when we assume things) he is doing the same thing I have done, he is talking about seating the bullet out further to get a cartridge over all length that is a .357 Mag length, instead of seating the bullet to the standard .38 Spl OAL. Seating it out to .357 OAL gives the same case capacity as if it had been loaded into a .357 case, and should give the same .357 pressures. And I would bet, at least in some guns, it would prevent the round from being chambered into a .38 revolver too since many here seem to worry about that.

Yes, that is what I'm talking about. Looking up the numbers, I find the following:

.38 special

Case Length: 1.155"
Overall Length: 1.55"


.357 magnum

Case Length: 1.29"
Overall Length: 1.59"


Which results in:

Change in Case Length: 0.135"
Change in Overall Length: 0.04"


I had never really bothered to compare these two like this. It's been awhile since I reloaded .38 special or .357 magnum rounds and I thought that there was more difference in them than the above values from the wiki pages would indicate. My gut feeling was that there was more of a difference like what you see with the .40SW and 10mm cartridges that I have seen photos of. When you load a .40SW to 10mm lengths, for firing in certain 10mm handguns, there is noticeably more lead exposed. According to the above numbers, there would only be 0.04" more lead exposed. I have to wonder how many of us can tell just from looking whether there is 0.04" more lead exposed on a round.

What this tells me is that it would definitely be possible to load a .38 special rounds to .357 magnum pressures and velocities, but you might not be able to tell whether it was a hot or regular .38 just by looking at it. I would probably still do it if I did not have readily available .357 mag brass, but I would be inclined to use a Sharpie to color the primer (or some other means) to indicate the difference

[opos]

I don't put "non standard" loads in "standard" cases....I got guns that are more than tested at the higher pressures...no sweat but I don't do it...I have no idea how or when the "unknown" might happen (like when I die the stuff all gets sold off or given away or whatever)...I won't knowingly load something hotter than "spec" in case it ended up in a gun that is not made for it. A specific example...When my Mother in Law died she had a brand new RG-31 snub in the drawer of her nightstand .... never even loaded...in the box with all the papers. A 38 special that was never meant to stand any excess pressures...probably not safe with standard 38 specials as a matter of fact....there are lots of those old clunkers around that can fall into the hands of the inexperienced and should they get ahold of hot loads it might be a real issue...It will not happen on "my watch"...folks can do what they want and I will follow my own "rules"...got a buddy that is a master engine builder...he can do things with a small block chevy that are not to be believed...but he still says those engines are for a specific purpose with a specific use and user in mind and he won't build one of his "NASCAR" motors for the guy that wants to show off to the car show crowd...Guess it's all about "down the line" safety and just common courtesy...by the way...the brand new 38 snub RG-31 died a tragic death and is not salvageable any more..amazing what a big vise and the proper tools can do. Nobody get's hurt with that thing.

[WilliamDahl]

Jake is right about the amount of lead exposed when you load a .40SW to 10mm lengths. You would be hard pressed to mistake a .40 loaded long for a regular .40, just looking at the exposed bullet.

81255
From left to right: 10mm commercial ammo, .40SW commercial ammo, .40SW handload with Lee TL401-175-SWC, and .40SW brass loaded to 10mm length and with 10mm powder charge with Lee TL-401-175-SWC.

[JakeBlanton]

I have no idea how or when the "unknown" might happen (like when I die the stuff all gets sold off or given away or whatever)...

I'm of the view that when I die, I don't care what happens to those who are still alive. I basically don't have any family anymore. Or at least none that would likely hear about my death. It's not like people you haven't spoken with for 20+ years are going to care if you are dead. Hell, some of them would probably even be happy. I'll probably be long dead and decomposed in my RV by the time anyone finds my body.

[Char-Gar]

I'm of the view that when I die, I don't care what happens to those who are still alive. I basically don't have any family anymore. Or at least none that would likely hear about my death. It's not like people you haven't spoken with for 20+ years are going to care if you are dead. Hell, some of them would probably even be happy. I'll probably be long dead and decomposed in my RV by the time anyone finds my body.

Now that is about the saddest thing I have read on this site...ever! I am truly sorry Jake, truly sorry.

[JakeBlanton]

Now that is about the saddest thing I have read on this site...ever! I am truly sorry Jake, truly sorry.

Don't be, I like it -- or at least have gotten used to it that I don't know any difference (kind of like my cooking). I don't have to listen to a wife that bitches all the time. I don't have relatives wanting to borrow money. I don't have anyone telling me that I sleep too late or come to bed too late. I don't have to deal with family functions where I'm expected to attend. I guess I don't have any friends, but I have a couple acquaintances -- former co-workers that I might say "hi" to if I'm driving through their town.

You might wonder about sex, but at my age, I've gotten where I don't really care enough about it to have to deal with the baggage that comes along with it with respect to having to deal with the way that women "think". It's just not worth the trouble anymore. If I have some energy or frustration that I need to release, I just go shoot holes in pictures of traitors or other stuck stuff like that.

http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/President-Obama-courtesy-The-Truth-About-Guns.jpg

Besides that, with the STDs that we have these days, getting involved in a new relationship is like playing Russian Roulette with a M1911. :(

[waksupi]

Living where I do, it is quite conceivable I could be here injured or dead for at least a month before anyone came to check on me. I don't have regular movements or contacts, so nothing would make anyone suspect a problem, unless they saw the ravens and buzzards circling.

[WilliamDahl]

Living where I do, it is quite conceivable I could be here injured or dead for at least a month before anyone came to check on me. I don't have regular movements or contacts, so nothing would make anyone suspect a problem, unless they saw the ravens and buzzards circling.

I live in the suburbs and if wasn't for my wife, I would be in the same situation. She has plenty of people who would notice her absence, but I don't really have anyone either. I don't even live in the same state as my relatives and most (if not all) of the ones that I was even slightly close to have either died or are far enough along with age related dementia / Alzheimer's that they don't remember me anyway. Hell, many of them are just barely aware enough of their surroundings to know that they are even alive. :(

People around here just don't poke their noses into other people's business. My lawn service, utilities, credit cards, and such are on auto-pay from my brokerage account and would likely last a VERY long time before the funds were depleted. The only thing that is not on auto-pay is my property taxes, so after they were not paid for a few years, the government would probably foreclose on my house and then they would find my probably mummified body (I keep the air-conditioner in the low 70s at night so it would probably eventually dehydrate my corpse).

I've also lived in rural areas where you could probably even go longer without anyone finding your body. Personally, I *like* it when neighbors mind their own business and don't trespass on your property.

So, yeah, I can see where Jake and waksupi are coming from. If my wife dies before I do, I'll be in the same situation.

[Char-Gar]

I have a wife who I have known since 1950 and love dearly. Three children and several grandchildren all whom I talk to on a regular basis and have very good relationships with them all. I am active in church, several civic organizations, a shooting club and have warm colleagues at work. I have extended family here and the guys meet weekly for lunch and the entire family meets monthly for a big family dinner.

In short I have scores of friends and family with whom I am in frequent contact. I can hardly sneeze without somebody blessing me. This is what makes my life worth living. It requires making such relationships a high priority in life and working to preserve and maintain them. If we don't care about others, then others won't care about us. The burden of having relationships fall squarely on our shoulders.

If we live lonely isolated lives, sooner or later we turn inward, get angry and most often suffer from some form of depression.you can live as you wish, but I don't want to leave the smell of decomp as my only legacy.

[9.3X62AL]

I saw and dealt with a lot of solo souls at work. Not a thing I strived toward, but I'll add that human interactions can be CHALLENGES from time to time. I like having our kids visit back at home, enjoy my grandkids greatly, and have a good circle of friends--many of whom I met via membership at Cast Boolits and a couple other sites. Charles is right, relationships don't just happen--they take work, but I still think the work is worth it. I'll drive to northern Nevada at the drop of a hat to see the NCBS guys, and it is just cool as hell that Buckshot lives close to where a couple of our kids reside. Drives to Redlands are ALWAYS multi-stop events.

Hoping to crank off my first wadcutter 38 Special loads in a number of years later today or perhaps tomorrow. These consist of 50 each Lyman #358432 @ .358" and Remington HBWCs, all atop 3.0 grains of WW-231. NOT +P, and they will be run through a Colt Officer's Model Special x 6" (vintage 1949) and a S&W Model 10 x 5". I am curious to learn whether these bullets will tumble past 60 yards (as WCs are wont to do), whether Colt vs. S&W twist rate makes any difference in that vein, and whether my moribund revolver skills can be resuscitated after the long lay-off imparted by scarce componentry. Film at 11.

[Char-Gar]

Al...When you get the film developed, edited and prepped, let us know how the Great Hollow Base Wadcutter Shoot of 2013 turns out.

When I think about how challenging humans can be, I remember the words of my Great Aunt Lou Featherston to me when I was about 10 years old and a little irked at somebody, to wit; "Charlie, how can you expect people to put up with your peculiar ways, if you are not willing to put up with theirs?"

I still remember that wise counsel and when folks really start to irritate me, I remember that I must be at least equally irritating to some folks. Unless we are willing to give tolerance and understanding, we will not receive the same.

[JakeBlanton]

In short I have scores of friends and family with whom I am in frequent contact. I can hardly sneeze without somebody blessing me. This is what makes my life worth living.

The only thing that makes life worth living for me is not knowing with 100% certainty what comes afterward and whether the transition is more painful than just continued living with the chronic pain of age and injuries. Fear of the unknown, perhaps? Too deep of thinking -- I think I'll have another beer.

[Jack Stanley]

Great aunt Featherston sounds like a very wise woman , every one of us would have been fortunate to have someone like that as an influence .

Oh and by the way , Al , I really enjoyed how you worded the last paragraph in post ninety-one . It helps me sharpen my vocabulary a little .

Jack

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks kindly, Jack! Having done A LOT of writing for many years, it keeps your wordsmithing software updated and ready. I also had some EXCELLENT English grammer & composition instructors throughout my school years.

I didn't get the 38s wrung out today, but had a good time with a new-to-me Colt Army Special in 32-20 that shot LIGHTS OUT with both the RCBS 32-98-SWC and a Mountain Molds 120 grain revolver-specific design of my own. Glad to say that my revolver skills seem to be in good order, and that they can do this beautiful example justice downrange.

[PS Paul]

I have a wife who I have known since 1950 and love dearly. Three children and several grandchildren all whom I talk to on a regular basis and have very good relationships with them all. I am active in church, several civic organizations, a shooting club and have warm colleagues at work. I have extended family here and the guys meet weekly for lunch and the entire family meets monthly for a big family dinner.

In short I have scores of friends and family with whom I am in frequent contact. I can hardly sneeze without somebody blessing me. This is what makes my life worth living. It requires making such relationships a high priority in life and working to preserve and maintain them. If we don't care about others, then others won't care about us. The burden of having relationships fall squarely on our shoulders.

If we live lonely isolated lives, sooner or later we turn inward, get angry and most often suffer from some form of depression.you can live as you wish, but I don't want to leave the smell of decomp as my only legacy.

Ha ha! This is awesome, Char. You know, I have a tendency to "isolate" because I've worked as a restaurant and retail sporting goods manager my entire adult life.

I have my loving wife and children and a few acquaintances, but I am currently undergoing a potential career change in order to have a job where I am NOT in direct contact with the public any longer.

My hope is this change will allow me to enjoy public places, groups of people and "normal" type things others get to enjoy which I have DEPLORED and AVOIDED my entire career.

I hope to God it ain't too late for me......

Cheers!
Paul

[Char-Gar]

Ha ha! This is awesome, Char. You know, I have a tendency to "isolate" because I've worked as a restaurant and retail sporting goods manager my entire adult life.

I have my loving wife and children and a few acquaintances, but I am currently undergoing a potential career change in order to have a job where I am NOT in direct contact with the public any longer.
.
My hope is this change will allow me to enjoy public places, groups of people and "normal" type things others get to enjoy which I have DEPLORED and AVOIDED my entire career.

I hope to God it ain't too late for me......

Cheers!
Paul


Allot of us have "hermit tendencies", myself included. It takes conscious effort not to allow them to control our lives, but that effort pays big dividends. My top shelf thing after my family is the church. A church is the only place I know somebody can walk into the door and a group of strangers are glad to see you. Keep walking through the door and in a short time, they are no longer strangers but friends, who care about you. A pretty unique place, when you think about it

[WilliamDahl]

Allot of us have "hermit tendencies", myself included. It takes conscious effort not to allow them to control our lives, but that effort pays big dividends. My top shelf thing after my family is the church. A church is the only place I know somebody can walk into the door and a group of strangers are glad to see you. Keep walking through the door and in a short time, they are no longer strangers but friends, who care about you. A pretty unique place, when you think about it

Some of us have been exposed to enough things in life that we are just naturally suspicious of anyone who is "too nice". We figure that they must be "after *something*".

I don't like large crowds of people. I don't even like family get-togethers, but since they are all my wife's side of the family, that might have something to do with it. :)

[Char-Gar]

Some of us have been exposed to enough things in life that we are just naturally suspicious of anyone who is "too nice". We figure that they must be "after *something*".

I don't like large crowds of people. I don't even like family get-togethers, but since they are all my wife's side of the family, that might have something to do with it. :)

I am 71 years old, and have experienced just about any bad thing people can do to other people. I have also seen just about any good thing people can do for other people. We get to choose whether we will let the bad people or the good people determine our perspective on the human race. It is entirely our choice. We get to make that decision and then take either the results or the consequences of that decision.

Long ago, I decided not to let the crooks, jerks, AHs and other non-worthy people have control of my life by determining how I viewed the rest of the human race. I will not allow the bad people to have that much power over my life, happiness and outcome.

Everybody in my family, other than my children, are dead. I am the last man standing. My wife's family has stepped in to fill that hole and they are wonderful people. I enjoy their comfort, affection, support and company very much.

First and last, life is a head game! We get what we expect out of life and people. They will not let us down for they will be who we think they are, at least inside our own heads.

[onceabull]

This fella,9.x62 Al,surely is lucky to have someone sort through revolvers in order to make sure he only acquires the best of the crowd...???????[smilie=l: Onceabull

[leftiye]

Charles, a truly great tour de force on perception. As in whether we create reality by filtering which perceptions we will validate or not. Though I can accomodate the idea of not letting the bad folks get one down, I don't see it as a valid conscious choice. I actually never considered that it was my choice to make. I believe in striving to see reality as precisely as possible. I react violently (in my mind) to the idea that reality is something that we can make anything we want to experience (how we want it to be). I am not saying that you have advocated this, only that it is the logical outcome of this carried to the end. Though it is very obvious that humans are capable of this, it is refusing to perceive things as they are. Actually as skeptical as I am right now I could say it doesn't matter, the world can be as it wants I choose door 3 instead. But one could lay down with an opium pipe too.

[Char-Gar]

I think reality will affirm a few basic elements about human nature;

1. There are some few evil people, but even they do good things from time to time.
2. There are no totally good people, but they often occur as "mostly good".
3. The best can expect our of human beings is those folks who do the right thing, when they know what the right thing is.
4. Even No. 3 above can do the wrong thing through ignorance or misunderstanding.

This leave us with some questions;

1. What is the difference between good and non-good? This is dependent on our moral compass and value system. I have choosen (there is that word again) to use the Jesus based model. "Love your God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself.".

As always the above is subject to the disclaimer I put below. It is not presented as fact or immutable truth.

2. Once we have our moral compass and value system chosen and understood, then our perspective on humans often looks different., i.e. requires a second evaluation.

3. Here again, the emphasis is on personal choice. Our lives are pretty much the sum total of decision we make. To be certain, the decisions and actions of others do have an effect/impact on our lives, but we get to choose our response/reaction. We get to choose how we let the actions of others shape and mold our lives. This is my point of the past few posts.

4. I choose not to let the attitudes/actions of others turn me into a cynical and bitter person. For to do so makes me unhappy and gives them a victory over my soul and mind. I choose to stay the course, with my Jesus based value system. I have no always done so, therefore I have experienced both sides of this particular choice. I don't like what I become if I turn away from my moral compass. Everybody gets to choose. Repeated same choices become habits and the more engrained they become, the harder they are to change with another choice. Stay with habit long enough and they become ruts we run in and are unable to get out of. This is why fresh daily choices are so important. When we stop paying attention to those around us and our responses/reaction we are in danger of becoming something a robot of sorts.

Reality is static and external. Our evaluation/response to reality is internal and changeable and most often highly colored by choice. We don't get to make our own reality, but we do get to choose the effect it has on us and our response to it.

[JakeBlanton]

I am of the belief that people will do what they perceive to be in their own self-interest. To do otherwise is probably a sign of some sort of mental disease since it is by definition knowingly self-destructive. If they are religious, they might perceive that helping others will be in their own self-interest.

[Char-Gar]

I am of the belief that people will do what they perceive to be in their own self-interest. To do otherwise is probably a sign of some sort of mental disease since it is by definition knowingly self-destructive. If they are religious, they might perceive that helping others will be in their own self-interest.

That would be mostly true. But we are capable of altruism, whereby our actions are for the benefit of others even though we receive no benefit either real or perceived. This is what separates us from animals.

Altruism is not all that common, but it is something some of us strive for with varying degrees of success. None have don't it with consistency, at least in my experience and observations.

[PS Paul]

Obviously the "benefit" of altruism is in the health of our spirit.....

Char, I have been giving a tremendous amount of thought to what you've said since my earlier post about isolating. I attended a funeral yesterday for a murdered friend. There were 250+ people in attendance and I know it would have been closer to 400 if held on a weekend.

I considered my place in the world and ran through my mind the idea of "what if" or "how many" would attend my funeral if I were to die suddenly.

I'm undergoing some real self-reflection since I'm having a career change, my Dad passed and my friend was murdered. Your words have some real meaning for me and I appreciate your perspective.

Now, HOW IN THE WORLD have we gone to this place so far from the OP??? ha ha!!!!!

[Char-Gar]

Paul...I am very happy if you have found something I have posted of value to you. That has been what my life is all about in one way or another, i.e. helping folks along the way of life.

The death of a Father or Mother is a real mile stone in life. It changes how we look down the road of life. I think that is pretty much a universal experience, at least I know it was for me.

Murder is an awful thing and is much more traumatic that most ways to die. There is most often an untimely element to it as the person died out of natural order. Then we have a place to focus, our loss and anger. We know that this was caused not by the course of life, not by accident but by some wretched person who took a life.

Yep, this is a long way from over pressure loads in 38 Special cases, but digression sometimes is a good thing.

[Jack Stanley]

You guys may have high-jacked the thread , but ya did it with class !

Jack

[JakeBlanton]

That would be mostly true. But we are capable of altruism, whereby our actions are for the benefit of others even though we receive no benefit either real or perceived. This is what separates us from animals.

Altruism is not all that common, but it is something some of us strive for with varying degrees of success. None have don't it with consistency, at least in my experience and observations.

I have to wonder if true altruism (i.e. doing something for the good of other that you do not perceive to be in your self-interest in either this life or one that might possibly come afterwards) can only be achieved by an atheist since by definition, they do not believe in an afterlife in which their actions on earth might affect their position in said afterlife. I suspect that there is a fine line between this true altruism and mental illness. :)

I freely admit that I only do things that I perceive to be in my own self-interest. Of course, my perception has been wrong numerous times over the decades. Quite often preceded by something along the line of "hold my beer". :)

[gamma50]

forget about the .38 load, you guys are into something far greater!

[gamma50]

oh I wanted to tell you all I just ordered .357 brass from Everglades ammo and reloading , if you buy over 500 you pay only $12 or $13 a 100, heres page

http://www.evergladesammo.com/brass/handgun-brass/357-magnum-reloading-brass-100-pieces.html

[Char-Gar]

No Jake...True altruism is not an atheist thing.

"And can it be, that I should gain
an interest in my savior's blood,
died he for me, who caused his pain,
for me to whom his death pursued,
amazing love, how can it be,
that thou my God hast died for me."

A Hymn by Charles Wesley

I can only speak for myself, but I seek to follow in the footsteps of the Christ, who died for all. I stumble, I tremble and I fall, but I continue to try and put my feet into the prints he left. I don't seek to do what is right to gain heaven, for that is mine already. I seek to do right as an act of obedience.

I am first, last and always a man of faith. What little altruism I can muster is the residue of the grace I have received. I am not a philosopher, a sage, nor a wise man, I am but a follower of "The way".

I do not intend to offend or "put off" anybody, I only try to be honest and forthright. I do not believe that altruism is within the providence of atheist people. Quite to the contrary I believe it to the within the providence of people of faith, for we have experienced ultimate altruism (grace) from God. We only seek to replicate that which we have received.

I don't see how people who have not experienced grace (altruism) could ever hope to pass it along to the rest of the world. It is an experience to be shared, not a philosophy to be propounded.

Perhaps I am indeed mentally ill, but I am OK with that. I am content to live and die as a religious nut.

[9.3X62AL]

I am first, last and always a man of faith.

Perhaps I am indeed mentally ill, but I am OK with that. I am content to live and die as a religious nut.

No, Charles--you are NOT IN THE LEAST "mentally ill". Nor are you any kind of "nut"--you are a man of faith, who by all appearances as I can gather through this venue strive to live a life of faith as directed by The Word. If that equates to being a nut, we could all do with a whole lot more nuttiness.

[JakeBlanton]

No Jake...True altruism is not an atheist thing.
<snip>


I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying. I'm just saying that for someone to be truly altruistic, they must be doing something that is not in their self-interest with no perceived gain in this life or an afterlife. If a person believes in an afterlife, then they believe that their actions in this life affect that afterlife, so I question whether they meet that definition of being truly altruistic. I'm not disparaging their actions, I'm just splitting hairs on the definition of the word, I guess.

Also, I was not trying to say that people who believe in an afterlife are mentally ill. I was trying to say that there might be a fine line between being mentally ill and being the "true altruist" atheist who does something that he perceives to not be in his own self-interest in this life and who also believes that it cannot affect him in a next life.

I am not trying to attack your belief system and was not trying to make this into a discussion of any particular religion. Sorry if anyone interpreted it that way.

[leftiye]

Altruism - we benefit from altruism. We are enabled to feel that we are good people. Self perception is probly the main achilles tendon so to speak in human psychology. Major psychic pain results from guilt and feeling that we are not good people. The "few" truly evil people (try applying the "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" concept to within the individual, Heh heh) do seem to not have this problem, but it ain't as it seems, they are destroyed by self loathing. They're in the "I won't get involved" phase of religion where they ignore god.

I enjoy your mind Jake, truly.

[Char-Gar]

Jake...No problem and I didn't feel under attack. I just don't understand altruism from any kind of self interest or benefit, whether that accrues here or in the after life. Altruism (IMHO) is doing right for the sake of doing right. I do suppose there is some level of satisfaction that comes from being true to one's value system. So, perhaps satisfaction might be construed as feeding self interest, but I don't see it that way.

The only example of absolute altruism I can muster up is the example I gave in Christ. That was the ultimate form of self-sacrifice with all benefit going to the human race and none to the divine. I do realize that is beyond anything that beyond anything humans can even approach, but it is the model to which all Christians strive.

When the topic turns to altruistic actions and living, this is the way my mind runs. I just can't imagine anybody seeking to live that life, even for a moment without such a model and motivation. I will freely admit that self-interest is always lurking behind the curtain of our minds, always reach to pounce. We can only stand on our moral tip toes on occasion and feel the fringes of true altruism. Then we tire and drop back down and just try to be good people doing good things.

In Christian understanding altruistic behavior does not result in benefit in the after life. After life and all it's benefits is granted by God without any prerequisite good conduct. It is granted as an act of God's grace which by definition is "unearned favor". There are indeed religions (Islam for example) that believe after-life reward is based on present life conduct, but Christianity is not of that stripe.

I really try and stay away from religion and theology for I have found that often turns off people. But when we start talking about human nature and altruism, I will get to religion and theology sooner or later, for my understanding of humankind begins there and progresses therefrom. I spent years trying to "think" my way through life and found myself going in circles with the questions increasing and not decreasing in number. I came to the point where I was willing to take a fresh look at the Christian faith, which I had rejected as a young adult, then is when the pieces started to fall into place. It was then my experiences and observations in life made sense.

I am somewhat bemused by the folks that feel that the Christian faith is just not intellectually acceptable and that truly educated people will leave it behind and seek more lofty goals. I have found just the opposite to be true. The Christian faith has been my "logon and password" to understanding human history, the human condition, myself and others around me.

[Char-Gar]

Altruism - we benefit from altruism. We are enabled to feel that we are good people. Self perception is probly the main achilles tendon so to speak in human psychology. Major psychic pain results from guilt and feeling that we are not good people. The "few" truly evil people (try applying the "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" concept to within the individual, Heh heh) do seem to not have this problem, but it ain't as it seems, they are destroyed by self loathing. They're in the "I won't get involved" phase of religion where they ignore god.

I enjoy your mind Jake, truly.

I would agree that self-perception is the key. Do we perceive ourselves to be fundamentally bad or fundamentally good, or are we occasionally bad and occasionally good. Guilt with it resulting negative consequences is the result of failing to meet our expectations of ourselves, whether those expectations are internal or external.

Healing and wholeness starts when we can accept ourselves as good, but flawed, worthy but imperfect. I suppose the next place to go is to stop beating ourselves up for being flawed and imperfect. All of this in indeed self-perception.

As a person of faith, my self-perceptions start with what does God think about me. That understanding forms the foundation for what I think about myself. If I profess to believe that God is all wise and all knowing, then my view of myself cannot be at odds with His. I then must lay my "feelings" aside and take a new and fresh look at who I am from the divine perspective.

I don't see how there can be a non-involved phase of religion, unless that person's god is non-involved.

[grumman581]

I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying. I'm just saying that for someone to be truly altruistic, they must be doing something that is not in their self-interest with no perceived gain in this life or an afterlife. If a person believes in an afterlife, then they believe that their actions in this life affect that afterlife, so I question whether they meet that definition of being truly altruistic. I'm not disparaging their actions, I'm just splitting hairs on the definition of the word, I guess.


It turns out that there has been a lot written on the idea of "altruism". The wiki article is not exactly all that short, but it gives a good summary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

From reading it, I came across the term of "Psychological Egoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism)". That concept seems to be similar to what you are saying with your phrase "true altruism".

Although it's an interesting read, it's deeper than my engineer's brain wants to think about.

[leftiye]

To continue, what if one applies the "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" into the context of an individual... Good people then become the ones that do something good or to be good. The ones (most of us)who just exist and call ourselves good then have no claim. Trims the fat some don't it?

Further, my daughter called today and told me she was getting married (which is nice, it's been twenty years since her husband drowned)and she told me that he (groom) is a good man. Without thinking I said, "that's all that matters." She seemed confused and asked why. I said the ones that aren't good don't have anything for us but trouble and grief. There were other comments from her about being picky (discriminating). I said everyone is picky, it doesn't do much good. Many of us look for the wrong thing, and more often than not the person you wake up with the next day is a stranger.

So, I may be like the hillbilly watching the road into my place with a rifle over my knees, but if they ain't good people, I have no use for them. All people may have some good in them, but few of them are profitable to deal with.

[Char-Gar]

I often wish I could withdraw and deal only with good people and not be troubled with those who are not. A few hundred acres of desert with a high fence would do nicely. But when I get very deep into that fantasy, I come up with deciding who is good and who is not and how much good is allowed in and how much bad keep them out. I then I start to wonder which side of the fence I would be on.

When I get to that stage, I just decided to quit playing God and go shooting.

[9.3X62AL]

I often wish I could withdraw and deal only with good people and not be troubled with those who are not. A few hundred acres of desert with a high fence would do nicely. But when I get very deep into that fantasy, I come up with deciding who is good and who is not and how much good is allowed in and how much bad keep them out. I then I start to wonder which side of the fence I would be on.

When I get to that stage, I just decided to quit playing God and go shooting.

THIS brought a smile, Char-Gar!

[Lonegun1894]

Char-Gar,
I have had the same thought except it has varied from desert, to woods, to plains, to mountains, etc... , and never did come up with an answer--although I know which side of the fence I hope I would be on.

[357mags]

+P any caliber is a gimmick, and waste of powder!

[leftiye]

I often wish I could withdraw and deal only with good people and not be troubled with those who are not. A few hundred acres of desert with a high fence would do nicely. But when I get very deep into that fantasy, I come up with deciding who is good and who is not and how much good is allowed in and how much bad keep them out. I then I start to wonder which side of the fence I would be on.

When I get to that stage, I just decided to quit playing God and go shooting.

Two comments. First, by their fruits you shall know them. 'Snot playing god, it's simple avoidance.

My main thrust was to point out that while it might be nice to feel ourselves to be good due to the fact that we don't do evil, If we don't produce good (fruits) then the "good men do nothing" thing may take over (evil may triumph) within us. Truly good people do good, they don't just avoid doing evil. I call into question the value of "all men/people have some good in them." No fruits equals nothing.

[Char-Gar]

I call into question the value of "all men/people have some good in them." No fruits equals nothing.

The notion that all folks have good or at least start that way is a Christian notion. For all humans were created in the "image of God I (Imago Dei), this implies that unless God is bad, then all his creation has some of His good.

Having free will, humans can choose to abandon their true calling as children of God and follow their own notions. This is called sin and this is why we need a savior. Indeed some folks have sunk so long into self interest and self deification the image of God is not visible to us "fruit inspectors". But as I man of faith, I think there must be a smidge of that still there, even in the worst of us.

Again, this is Christian thinking and not human psychology, so it has as much or as little value as folks want to attach to it. I have studied psychology a right smart amount, and have found nothing there, to change my Christian thinking on the subject. I do admit that in my fruit inspection days, I ran across some folks that displayed no visible fruit of goodness.

A close examination of my own fruit lead me to turn in my Inspector's badge. If the power of God is limited to what I can see, know, understand and verify, then that makes for a pretty limited God and/or a pretty big me.