Wind Drift - Does it matter in hunting?

[303Guy]

Following the thread on uphill and down hill shooting, how often, if at all, does wind drift matter in hunting?

I've had wind drift problems on the range so I'm just wondering. I do not know how to compensate for it and in fact, I hardly think of it. I have found that at some distance wind drift is quite marked, like two or three times the size of the critter (Pea fowl) due shooting across a gulley with wind channelling up it. Wind that I could hardly feel in my position.

Ballistics charts show quite a good deal of wind drift. I'm not sure (I haven'y checked) whether a flat nose boolit with lower BC has more drift than a spitzer.

Your experiences would be appreciated. Thanks.

[horsesoldier]

Unless it is real bad or if I am shooting over 350 yards I dont worry about it too much

[300savage]

It only matters if you want to hit something..
There are just a few things that really matter, time of flight, distance, and mass of projectile. The BC of a bullet really only affects the speed over distance so that brings us back to time of flight.

So does it matter ? Dam Skippy it do.

[Win94ae]

Yes, it matters.

Yes a flatnose has more drift than a spitzer. On average, the cast bullets I shoot have twice as much wind drift as the jacketed bullets.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that. I use JBM Calculations and it's set for 10 mph cross wind. I haven't played with it much but I noted the drift is quite large for 10 mph. Well 10 mph isn't something I can visualize so I converted it to m/s and its 4.4 m/s (14.4 fps)! That I can visualize. No wonder it shows 16 inch drift at 300 yds. But at 100 yds its only 1.5 inches. But on the range with cross wind gusts at the benches drift is quite high at 100.

JBM does not cater for left hand or right hand twist. I don't know whether it calculates the vertical component of wind drift.

[Stephen Cohen]

I shot a lot of long range big bore in my younger days, Omark 44 up to 900yrds with peep sights, I learned early that wind does play a big part. Those days how well I shot made difference if I ate or not. With a 22 and 22 mag I often made head shots on game birds out to 100yds but generally much closer, if wind was blowing I would aim on wind side of bird and I did not often miss. using the 30/30 and cast on pigs at 25 to 50 yrds I never worried about it, but at a hundred, one had to allow for it I found. I guess it comes down to how far target is and how hard wind is blowing. I have found myself aiming at 7 ring to get 10 ring in rapid fire 22 pistol at 25yrds.

[country gent]

Range caliber bullet style and velocity all determine wind drift along with wind speed range contours and distance. A moderately slow bullet will have more wind drift than a heavier one. A slower bullet may have less wind drift than a faster one. (at subsonic velocities) Longer range gives more time for wind to work on the bullet. Alot of berms or ridges gullies betweent target and shooter cause changes in the wind. Trees and obstructions cause wind changes. It all takes experience to see ad read. On the range your spotting scope is your friend, That mirage we all cuss can be used to read the wind also. Flags, ribbons, grass,trees, or wind flags all give a reading of the wind and direction but again it takes experience to read them. Its part of being a shooter.

[btroj]

It depends. Larger, faster bullets are affected less. Range matters too.
I rarely shoot over 50 yards for hunting and most of that so in wooded areas so wind isn't generally an issue.

I generally don't factor for it unless it is a longer shot in a pretty windy area.

[fouronesix]

Thanks for that. I use JBM Calculations and it's set for 10 mph cross wind. I haven't played with it much but I noted the drift is quite large for 10 mph. Well 10 mph isn't something I can visualize so I converted it to m/s and its 4.4 m/s (14.4 fps)! That I can visualize. No wonder it shows 16 inch drift at 300 yds. But at 100 yds its only 1.5 inches. But on the range with cross wind gusts at the benches drift is quite high at 100.

JBM does not cater for left hand or right hand twist. I don't know whether it calculates the vertical component of wind drift.

Don't know about the "vertical component", but JBM does a pretty good job with their calculator- it's the one I use for making gross sight adjustments or predicting behavior when working up loads. One way to look at it is time of flight, as 300savage pointed out- where behavior is broken down into increments of the bullet's flight.

As a related aside- if I had the inclination, time and access to the proper range facilities, I'd like to someday compare the behavior of the Govt arsenal bullet at original velocity specs out of a 45-70 trapdoor to the right hand twist drift compensation on the Buffington sight. I know it's been done, but would just like to "see" how close it really is.

[Doc Highwall]

303Guy, check out this site and the wind drift charts in it about using a 22rf learning to read the wind.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/rimfire-tactical-precision-match/

[waksupi]

Do the calculation on a 50 mph wind. If you ever hunt antelope, you may be contending with that!

[Larry Gibson]

It certainly matters but it depends on the size of the game, the range, the wind conditions and direction and the external ballistic capabilities of the cartridge/bullet used as to how much I pay attention to wind. When hunting or shooting I am always cognizant of the winds effect on the bullet though.

Larry Gibson

[sixshot]

Back when I hunted with rifles, if I could feel any wind I held for it. If its only a 200 yd shot on a deer or elk & only a 10 mph wind then a very slight (perhaps one crosshair thickness) hold into the wind was ok. If I was shooting at rock chucks at 300-400 I always paid close attention to the wind because when chuck hunting its easy to get 15-20 mph winds, easily enough to blow my shot off target.
I always went by the wind I could feel on my face, also looking for anything down range that would help. Mirage is wind that you can see, use it to your advantage. When the wind stops & the mirage starts to "boil" thats a good time to wait, your target might appear to be centered in your scope but its actually a few inches lower if the mirage boils.
Many times I busted rock chucks beyond 400 yds (single shot pistols) while holding 12-15 inches or more of wind, fun stuff!

Dick

[1Shirt]

Matters for long range hunting and doing it as a sportsman rather than just as a shooter. The older I get, the closer I like game. Doubt I would ever try a game animal with cast at over 100, and would prefer less.
1Shirt!

[fouronesix]

Matters for long range hunting and doing it as a sportsman rather than just as a shooter. The older I get, the closer I like game. Doubt I would ever try a game animal with cast at over 100, and would prefer less.
1Shirt!

+1 on that!

Over 50 years of hunting with everything from scoped, bolt action super accurate jbullet shooters to original muzzleloaders and can only remember compensating for wind once for big game. It worked only because I guessed right- 15-18" offset at 260 +/- yds. I checked the JBM prediction after the fact and it was very, very close to what actually happened. Something tells me that if I were to try that guessing game very often.... the odds would catch up pretty quick and there'd only be trouble. I much prefer hunting close enough that it doesn't require any compensation for either gravity or wind.

[300savage]

Larry Gibson mentioned probably the single most important element, wind direction. Even a fifty mph wind in your face or directly at your six will not affect your shot enough to be noticed. Think of it as standing on a watch face, a ten mph at nine o'clock will be essentially a 6.7 mph at 10 , a 3.3 at 11, and of no effect at 12.
Works the exact same from three o'clock to six.
An easy way I use to judge wind in a hurry , which is how we often must in the field is this.
If I have to wonder if the wind is blowing, and no limbs , leaves or grass give me immediate confirmation that it is, then it ain't.
If I can feel it, and barely see it,, 5 mph.
If I can easily feel and see it, and grass and trees are obviously moving,, 10 mph.
If I have to pull my cowboy hat down a bit snugger, and the occasional bit of leaf or dust goes by,,15 mph
If I am having trouble holding my cross hairs steady from the wind,, 20-25mph.
If I catch myself saying "holy sh-t" this is not freekin good,, get closer, much closer.

[rosst]

easiest way to to check it out is to shoot 100-150 yards or further with subsonic .22lr, its alot of fun with a big learning curve for not a lot of dollars. well it is at the start, till you want a bigger scope, rings with some lift, better rifle . . . as i found out

cheers

[leftiye]

I shot a buck Mulie at about 200 yards in a high wind once, the windage moved the bullet just about far enough forward to cancel out the lead for the deer's walking FWIW. I held extra windage on him expecting more from the wind, and this resulted in a liver hit. He was walking left to right, and the wind was from his rear. Bullet struck at point of aim.

[Hickory]

This thread and the replies, make more sense then the "up-hill, down-hill" thread.

[truckjohn]

It only matters if you are far enough away for the wind to play a major factor in where the bullet will hit for the game you are shooting

So... MY "Average" Brushy, back east 40 yard shot on a deer.... Nope... Unless the wind is howling - it's not enough to care about.... and if it's howling - I am more likely to miss because the tree stand is swinging around (Tree Drift) than because of "Wind drift"...

The same range on a squirrel - sure, pay attention to the wind, because 1" makes a big difference

If I was shooting deer across a bean field or shooting crows with a small caliber rifle - I would pay closer attention to wind...

Thanks

[jhalcott]

Yes, but the more you shoot in wind the more you get comfortable with the "hold offs"! A faster stream lined bullet will deflect less than a FN or RN at equal muzzle speeds because they slow down quicker . On the other hand a CAST FN bullet will give more reaction when it HITS game

[Win94ae]

This thread and the replies, make more sense then the "up-hill, down-hill" thread.

LOL!
I knew how to figure angled shooting, (actually quite simple;) but after reading a few of those posts it seemed like a daunting task.

[303Guy]

I'm going to make a point of practising with a 22 at longer ranges and I'm going to try 300savage's rule.


An easy way I use to judge wind in a hurry , which is how we often must in the field is this.
If I have to wonder if the wind is blowing, and no limbs , leaves or grass give me immediate confirmation that it is, then it ain't.
If I can feel it, and barely see it,, 5 mph.
If I can easily feel and see it, and grass and trees are obviously moving,, 10 mph.
If I have to pull my cowboy hat down a bit snugger, and the occasional bit of leaf or dust goes by,,15 mph
If I am having trouble holding my cross hairs steady from the wind,, 20-25mph.
If I catch myself saying "holy sh-t" this is not freekin good,, get closer, much closer.

[popper]

Doesn't make any difference unless shooting 22 lr @ 100. Personally, I'd practice with light for cal. slower center fire. Almost any cross wind messes up the 22.

[Lonegun1894]

I used to practice with .308s at 300, 500, and 1000yds and would do my best to make sure I was on the range especially if the winds got over 20mph, and preferred 30-50mph, just for the sake of the challenge of it. My targets were standard clay pigeons (mostly cause they're fairly small, about 4" across, make a GREAT target due to being bright orange, and break when hit so they gave immediate feedback as to weather I hit or missed), and I used to hit them 90% of the time out to 500yds, but my percentages dropped significantly at 1K. It was great practice, and was a great way to learn to read the wind and compensate for it, but it cost me a lot of ammo. I try to keep my game shooting to less than 100yds, and for the majority of it, while I compensate in winds over 10mph, I really don't need to but I am just very picky to make sure my shot hits exactly where I want because I don't want the animal suffering. Now varmints are another story. I am not above a 6-700yd shot on a coyote, and this is where the long range shooting and wind reading practice is worth it's weight on gold, and very necessary. I still try to do the majority of my hunting inside 100yds, and use muzzleloaders with round balls (which drift more than any modern bullet that I know of) more than anything else for hunting the majority of the seasons, but I still stay in practice with the modern stuff because there's times that I am out there for varmints and pest control, instead of a true hunt.

As to the shooting up or down hill, just make sure you adjust for the horizontal range, and not the actual. What I mean is that even though your target is above or below your level, making the actual distance longer, the distance that matters is the horizontal distance to your target. Gravity affects if over the horizontal distance, so figure out what the distance would be if the target was on the same elevation as you are, and adjust your sights or compensate for that distance. I hope that helps.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, Lonegun1894. Very interesting and motivating.

[Doc Highwall]

If you go to this web site that I posted before you will see that they compare shooting a 22lr at 200 yards to shooting a 308 Winchester with 175 grain Match Kings at 440 yards with the same wind drift. Save a copy of the wind chart to your computer.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/rimfire-tactical-precision-match/

[Digital Dan]

For the record, it really isn't drift, it's a deflection. The resultant displacement of a bullet from wind is a function of drag, commonly evaluated and represented by BC or coefficient of drag (Cd). The displacement from POA is best understood if one views the drag vector. In the calculation, velocity is not directly relevant.

[300savage]

Not sure about the calculations, but from one ridge top to another I will assure you that velocity is directly relevant.

Heavy and slow is affected a lot more than heavy and fast. faster its moving the less time the wind pressure has to exert influence on the trajectory.

[Digital Dan]

Not sure about the calculations, but from one ridge top to another I will assure you that velocity is directly relevant.

Heavy and slow is affected a lot more than heavy and fast. faster its moving the less time the wind pressure has to exert influence on the trajectory.

You are misinformed.

The formula for the deflection d is:

d = w (t-t_0)

w: constant cross wind in FPS
t_0: time of flight without drag, or vacuum time at a specific range and specified muzzle velocity (fps)
t: actual time of flight (sec)

The differential between vacuum time and actual flight time is a measure of BC, or Cd over the full distant of the shot. There are other formulas out there to calculate drift but they all pretty much wind up at the same conclusion. I say once more, it is the drag vector that matters. In this discussion the angle sigma in the resultant of pitch and yaw induced by the wind. Magnitude is a measure of the force of drag which slows the bullet.

I understand your thoughts but the way you are viewing it is incorrect. Given the circumstance of identical bullets in a .22 LR, one being HV and the other SV; by your perspective the HV would have less drift. It doesn't...actually drifts more.

The reason is differences in drag and the resultant vector.

[geargnasher]

The only time I compensate for wind is when wingshooting. If wind is sufficient to make me think of adjusting for it with centerfires, the shot is probably beyond my shooting skill level from field positions anyway so I either employ my hunting skills instead, and work in for a closer shot, or pass. Just my way, in my usual hunting circumstances. To answer the question, yes, it matters, A LOT, so if your shots are necessarily long, it would do to learn how to dope the wind and compensate.

Gear

[300savage]

Well Dan you very well may be right when punching paper with 22 lr, I don't know as I find that activity to be rather a waste of time.
I don't punch much paper period, I punch holes in critters preferably through their vitals, often times far beyond the 100 yard mark.
I much prefer the taste of elk and venison over even the tenderest of paper.
And many, many shots from ridge line to yonder game has convinced me that velocity and its resulting time of flight does have a serious effect on my likelyhood of bringing home the back straps and other edible portions.
And yet for the sake of staying open minded about it all perhaps someone may yet surprise me with a delicious recipe for wood pulp that could change my opinion.

[303Guy]

Given the circumstance of identical bullets in a .22 LR, one being HV and the other SV; by your perspective the HV would have less drift. It doesn't...actually drifts more.I was wondering about that. How much of that is due to the HV boolit starting out in the transonic zone where the drag can be quite high? A heavier bullet has a higher BC so even if it is slower or faster it should have less wind drift, right? Now surely the wind induced yaw would be less with a faster bullet because being faster, the angle of incidence is lower? I have all the formulae but I'm not about to actually do the math to find out for myself - it's been too long!:???: Mind you, I could set up excel to do it for me - but that takes some concentration.

[Doc Highwall]

I shoot 22lr small bore at 100 yards a lot and the subsonic ammo drifts less than the high velocity ammo. Most of the ammunition is between 1035 - 1080 fps muzzle velocity for this reason.

[M-Tecs]

For a ten mile in hour crosswind a 308 Federal Gold Metal 168 gr will drift 0.7” at 100y, 3.1” at 200, 7.4 at 300y, 13.4” at 400y, 22” at 500y and 109” at 1,000y. That will drift you well out of the kill zone on an antelope at 300y. For most locations that have antelope anything under a 15 mph wind is considered a quiet day.

Shooting prairie dogs with a variable 15 to 25 mph crosswind gets to be downright challenging.

[Digital Dan]

Yes, peak of the drag curve is Mach1.

[Digital Dan]

Well Dan you very well may be right when punching paper with 22 lr, I don't know as I find that activity to be rather a waste of time.
I don't punch much paper period, I punch holes in critters preferably through their vitals, often times far beyond the 100 yard mark.
I much prefer the taste of elk and venison over even the tenderest of paper.
And many, many shots from ridge line to yonder game has convinced me that velocity and its resulting time of flight does have a serious effect on my likelyhood of bringing home the back straps and other edible portions.
And yet for the sake of staying open minded about it all perhaps someone may yet surprise me with a delicious recipe for wood pulp that could change my opinion.
Don't recall saying anything about paper in the discussion. The physics are the same regardless of the target.

Your sarcasm needs a little polish.

[300savage]

Time of flight has a direct influence on how far a bullet drifts in the wind, and velocity directly affects time of flight.
So then velocity effects drift.

OK so my sarcasm needs a bit of work, I probably deserve that. However you my friend are the misinformed one.

[303Guy]

Time of flight has a direct influence on how far a bullet drifts in the wind, That would seem to be correct as long as the bullet isn't doing Mach 1 at or near the muzzle. Other than that, when staying supersonic, the higher the velocity the less the wind drift but the relationship between time of flight and drift is not linear. If one goes by flight time one would expect a faster bullet to have half the drift of one at half the velocity but it's not. Time of flight is 48.7% difference while wind drift difference is 43.2%. That is for one particular bullet only and is a calculated value so it's not cast in stone. The faster this particular bullet the less it tends to drift. That's a 55gr Hornady comparing 3000 fps to 1500 fps at 200m.

By the way, a subsonic 22lr does have less drift than a supersonic 22lr, something like 2" at 100yds. The higher the muzzle velocity the more the drift. I used 1050 fps, 1150 fps and 1250 fps. Interesting. I've never thought about it and didn't know a subsonic boolit has more drag than a supersonic one and even more in the transonic zone, maxing out at Mach 1.

Just to see, I punched in a 205gr boolit with BC of 0.3 and compared wind drift for 1050 fps MV with 1800 fps MV and guess which one has more wind drift? The faster one! (By a margin of 0.1 MOA). At double the velocity it has less wind drift. I never knew these things.

This is a really interesting and informative thread, thank you all for your input.:drinks:

[Digital Dan]

Time of flight has a direct influence on how far a bullet drifts in the wind, and velocity directly affects time of flight.
So then velocity effects drift.

OK so my sarcasm needs a bit of work, I probably deserve that. However you my friend are the misinformed one.

Ok, we're halfway there.

You need to understand I don't care all that much about what you believe, but spreading incorrect information serves no useful purpose. You are entitled to consider me the village idiot if is serves your purposes. See how easy I am to get along with?

But do us all a favor. You're saying ToF is directly related to "drift", I say not.

1) It is a deflection, not 'drift'. It is important that you understand that, or all else you think about this topic is pasture pie.
2) Do yourself a favor. If the names, McCoy, Vaughn or Litz don't mean anything to you, spend a little time with your Google button. Experts in the fields of external ballistics and the dynamics of spin stabilized bullets. The first two worked at Aberdeen and Sandia National Labs. You might learn something or...not.
3) http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/
4) It's all about drag. Drag is a changeling in many ways and I don't really have the inclination to try to explain it. That's what books are for. I can lead to the trough, but I can't make you drink.


Pretty much all I've got to say on the topic. It is complex and counter-intuitive.

[303Guy]

It is complex and counter-intuitive and worse to come is trajectory induced wind drift (deflection). :veryconfu However, it doesn't really matter I think, because one has to go out into the field and experience it and learn the effects if one so wishes. I've been with a shooting buddy using a 17 HMR and watched him miss in the wind. He sold it because of its wind sensitivity. But neither of us actually tried to learn the effects. Thing is, one can't see the wind. So while the math is fun and explains how it works, the major input, wind, is one we can't see so we have to estimate anyway. Another estimation is hold off distance at the target. Using MOA might be easier because it's a fixed distance on our cross hairs if we know it. It's still an estimation.

[Digital Dan]

Much truth there and well said. Reading wind is an art and not as simple as interpreting a breeze on your cheek. Translating the wind read to ballistics known and putting the bullet where it belongs is the trick. A fresh Wyoming breeze in the hills and canyons is a wonderful teacher. Match shooters like tell tales and such but the grass in the fields, leaves in the trees or even a wisp of fog tells the same story as ribbons if one is attentive.

[M-Tecs]

It is Thing is, one can't see the wind. So while the math is fun and explains how it works, the major input, wind, is one we can't see so we have to estimate anyway.


Actually we can see the wind. If you know what to look for and have the right optics reading the wind (mirage) is quite easy from 2 to 12 mph. Above 12 mph the mirage is a flat run and it can no longer be used as a wind speed indicator.

Below are some links that can articulate reading wind and mirage better than I can.

http://southtexasshooting.org/multimedia/text/mirage.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/readingmirage.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoVai3Suszk

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/12/wind-reading-tips-for-f-class-and-long-range-shooting/

http://www.6mmbr.com/windreading.html

http://www.thewindisnotyourfriend.com/read/wind-doping.html

http://www.indianashooter.com/long-range-shooting/5463-mirage-reading-simplified-description.html

If you truly want to learn to read the windshoot some NRA High Power Mid-Range, Long Range or F Class team events. During the normal matches coaching is not allowed, however, during the team matches the only thing the shooter does is align the sights and pull the trigger. The coach does all the wind doping. Coaching a good shooter at long range during variable winds is the best training tool you can get.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that M-Tecs. I'll take the time to go over it all. This gone from a daunting, unattainable task to just daunting. But now I've got something to work with.

[303Guy]

Just a question; why would it be 'wind deflection' and not 'drift'? Just trying to grasp the difference.

[300savage]

Dan about all that is left that I can say to you is that if you truly don't believe time of flight is crucial to reducing the effects of wind "deflection" when shooting in strong winds at game, or targets you should seriously consider reading less and shooting more.

Now how is that for a run on sentence?
I bet it deflects ..

[mroliver77]

Very interesting and informative. I would like to see more. Let's keep the pizzing contest out of it and just state our "take" on it. PLEASE!

Dan, am a right in that after a certain velocity time of flight has more effect on deflection? My instincts lead me to the same conclusion as 300savage.

I only shoot over 100 yards on varmints and mostly hold into the wind a bit but never off the body of the animal. I have overestimated but rarely underestimated "drift".

My home range the wind is almost always at my 6.

[303Guy]

300savage, I think the essence here is that bullet drag is what pulls the bullet off course and velocity affects that drag. So yes, the quicker the flight duration the better but not always. I gave a calculated example using a likely boolit in my 303 Brit. With a muzzle velocity of 1800 fps it showed more wind deflection than at 1050 fps for the same distance. But, up the velocity to 2200 fps and the wind deflection reduces considerably. Is it shorter flight time or higher velocity? Can one separate the two? Velocity is displacement per unit of time (in a specific direction). However, the mechanism of wind deflection is the orientation of the bullet in relation to it's line of flight. Wind deflection occurs even when there is no wind - spin drift. The boolit travels slightly sideways as it arcs through its trajectory and more so in a crosswind and of course, wind drift is far greater.

[Digital Dan]

Spin drift is the child of gyroscopic stability and the gravity force. Bullets/gyros respond to applied force 90* from the axis of rotation, in the direction of rotation. Right hand twists induce a slight yaw to the right as seen by the shooter which serves to deflect the bullet to the right. Left twists yaw left. The degree of drift correlates to the gyroscopic stability factor (Sg). Sg defines yaw of repose and tractability.


Dan, am a right in that after a certain velocity time of flight has more effect on deflection? My instincts lead me to the same conclusion as 300savage.

Will take a leap here and assume you are familiar with the wind triangle? It is the only graphic I'm familiar with that might shed some light on this.

80538

In the configuration shown the wind vector (C-B) causes the aircraft to crab into the wind in order to maintain a ground track (A-B). If it flew the same heading as the course it would drift to the east off course (drift) but instead it crabs into the cross wind (A-C) to maintain course.

With that in mind a similar geometry exists with bullets but there are a couple of significant differences. Bullets are not propelled by steady state thrust and the yaw induced by a cross wind results from gyroscopic precession due to off axis applied force. The yaw angle is that which results in no resultant lateral force applied to the bullet by the flow field. In short form a crosswind of 10 mph will induce more yaw angle on a slower bullet than one of higher velocity, BUT, the amount of off course deflection is a function of absolute drag force. In days of old the term "retarding force" was used and the unit was "G", or acceleration (negative). Gen. Hatcher opined that the typical bullet from the -06 Springfield might experience 60-70 gees of retarding force in certain circumstances. Given that a bullet has an induced yaw angle as a result of crosswind it is that vector (force+azimuth) which displaces the bullet off track.

The drag experienced by bullets can be quantified by the sum of form induced components. Nose form drag,or that part of the bullet from meplate to ogive, represents roughly 70% +/- of drag. The shank is good for about 5% and the balance to bullet base form. These percentages are somewhat variable depending on overall form. A boat tail generates less drag at supersonic velocity than a flat base. A VLD profile generates less than a RFN. However, with those things considered, don't be mislead to think form can overcome the sigma of drag force.


Fd= 1/2pv^2 Cd A

where

Fd is the drag force, which is by definition the force component in the direction of the flow velocity
ρ is the mass density of the fluid, [2]
v is the velocity of the object relative to the fluid,
A is the reference area, and
CD is the drag coefficient – a dimensionless coefficient related to the object's geometry and taking into account both skin friction and form drag.

What may be obvious from the above is that drag if not a linear measure. For a given form, drag increases as a function of velocity squared. In simple terms, absolute drag is greater at high velocity than low. On the other hand, drag coefficients for spitzer forms drops when bullets approach velocities of Mach 3 and higher. Problem with that is they don't stay there a long time. End of the day the menu of variables is quite large and there's few substitutes for actual field tests to properly evaluate things. Velocity has an influence on yaw angle (azimuth) in this consideration, but the force which displaces the bullet off the desired track is drag. The two together comprise the drag vector.

The drag vector is in a state of constant flux throughout a bullet's flight. Doing the calculation for a given set of parameters provides a glimpse at only that moment in space and time.

Dunno that helps or not, but there you have it.

[300savage]

Oh why heck yeah Digit Dan that clears things right up !!
Why didn't you just say that to begin with ?
How's that Dan, improving ??

[Digital Dan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8yN1sNxWg8

[300savage]

Now that's funny right there..
But I must insist that pigs velocity affected his drift,, am I right ?

[Digital Dan]

Probably not. Subsonic and not gyro stabilized. My best guess.

[Doc Highwall]

What I have learned about wind drift is it is based on the difference in time of flight of the bullet in a vacuum vs. the time of flight in air. Obviously in a vacuum there is no loss of velocity caused by the shape of the projectile so the time of flight is directly related to the muzzle velocity. The difference in time of flight caused by the air resistance vs. the vacuum time of flight is the amount of time that the wind gets to act upon the bullet. The time of flight in air is directly related to the shape of the bullet or the ballistic coefficient of the bullet all other things being equal.

Hypothetical example, your 308 is shooting a 175 grain bullet at 2700 fps muzzle velocity in a vacuum which means the bullet will travel 2700 feet in one second, but in in air the same 175 grain bullet will travel only about 600 yards or 1800 feet which is 900 fps less then it would in a vacuum. The time it takes the bullet to travel the extra 900 feet is the lag time, or the amount of time that the wind gets to act upon the bullet moving it in the direction of the wind. This is how the wind drift math formula works.

[Larry Gibson]

The thread is now discussing 2 different aspects that may occur during a bullet's flight; spin drift and wind drift. Let us keep in mind those are 2 distinctly different things. The causes and effects of each are quite different.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Digital Dan, that was well explained, thanks.

[mroliver77]

Wow, Rhinos are fast! Bison do the same thing with Orientals at Yellowstone occasionally.;)

Thanks Dan for the explanation. Very heady stuff for a builder but I am pretty sure I stayed with you.

I did pick the spin drift out of the information.

[MarkP]

In the central US (Nebraska, Kansas, South Dakota, Wyoming) the wind almost always blows. When shooting prairie dogs in these regions bullet drift can easily be 3 to 4 feet at only 300 yds even with faster 22's and 6mm's cartridges. Without a sighter shot it would be pretty difficult to judge in these areas.

[Digital Dan]

On point of the original post re: does it matter? Well yes and no. Mostly it's a matter of circumstances IMO and in context of cast bullets, not for very many shooters. LR shooters, be it game or target will need to read wind. Long is a subjective word though. BP bullet guns in Wyoming? You betcha. Flintlock and roundballs in southern swamps and timber? Not worth a thought.

[Digital Dan]

Wow, Rhinos are fast! Bison do the same thing with Orientals at Yellowstone occasionally.;)

.

Crackin' up...

[Larry Gibson]

Let's combine the threads.....

Say we're shooting at a coyote obliquely left across a canyon downhill. .......angle of fire is 40-45 degrees. ...line of sight range is 455 yards (range finder) and there is a 8-12 mph wind blowing up the canyon from the left.....trajectory compensation and wind correction?

I'm betting if you don't know how to correct for both the coyote only wonders who the fool is........

Larry Gibson

[Digital Dan]

This wind component, "up the canyon" means movement with the axis of the canyon? If so, you have a half value wind give or take, or about 4-6 mph. Your effective distance for vertical hold is about 225 yards. If you're using an pumped x-ray laser or ion pulse cannon hold dead center.

Did this coyote just come across the border, or is he all wore out from the cargo he's totin'? I'm trying to figure lead....

[Larry Gibson]

Just the 4 legged coyote. .......

However don't forget the wind is vectoring the vertical correction so holding for the 225 correction still results in a missed coyote. ......... how much does the wind effect the vertical correction?

Larry Gibson

[300savage]

Larry what are you shooting?

[Digital Dan]

Just the 4 legged coyote. .......

However don't forget the wind is vectoring the vertical correction so holding for the 225 correction still results in a missed coyote. ......... how much does the wind effect the vertical correction?

Larry Gibson

Would say about 1/4-1/3 of the wind correction applied positive to elevation. Off the cuff guesstimate.

[Lonegun1894]

Assuming a 100yd zero with a scoped rifle with the scope as low over the barrel as possible (no see through scope rings that hold the scope way too high:

With my .223 Rem 700 1:12" ROT 26" firing 55gr, I would hold 1" high and 8" into the wind, just as the first thing that comes to mind which is what I would do in the field for a quick shot. Same conditions with my Rem 700VS 26" .308 firing 175gr, I would once again hold over 1" and 3" into the wind. This is all off the top of my head, and without using any calculators or even paper and pencil. Given the information, I know I would connect, but may be an inch or two off which could be compensated for given time to actually do the math. Having said that, most of the canyon shooting I have done the wind was so variable that regardless of how much math was done, the wind would change slightly as soon as you finished your equation making your answer slightly off anyway.

Having said that, my hunting rifles have different zeros depending on intended purpose and weapon, and no scoped rifle bigger than a .22LR is actually zeroed at 100yds. Most are 1.5-2" high at 100, a couple are zeroed further out. And anything intended to be used mostly inside 100yds doesn't wear a scope.

[Doc Highwall]

The wind correction will be for the full value wind at 9 o'clock but depending on the cartridge and bullet being used and at what distance it is zeroed for now comes into play.

[Larry Gibson]

303?

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

I'm listening. This is all quite fascinating. I gave up on long range pea fowl hunting because of the wind. I've experienced bullet 'rise' from the wind (tail wind in a gulley into a bluff). At 200 m, instead of the bullet dropping as normal, it impacted at point of aim.

[Digital Dan]

303?

Larry Gibson

bottles of beer on the wall?

[Larry Gibson]

I'm listening. This is all quite fascinating. I gave up on long range pea fowl hunting because of the wind. I've experienced bullet 'rise' from the wind (tail wind in a gulley into a bluff). At 200 m, instead of the bullet dropping as normal, it impacted at point of aim.

And the apparent "drop" will be more but it is not "drop" but is from the wind quartering from the left and must be considered for the LOS range instead of the horizontal corrected range. This example shows how sometimes there is more to it than appears. Or that something is perhaps occurring that we are not aware of and we sometimes assume what we think is obvious to be true but in reality isn't.

Interesting thread.

Larry Gibson

[Digital Dan]

It is that. Some years back I got into a debate about drift and the core was whether or not a larger caliber was more resistant to drift than smaller. My opinion then and now, given equality of form, remains the same from a practical perspective. Larger is better generally but the reason is practical limitations of twist rate as caliber shrinks. Another issue is bullet quality. It is easier to make a large caliber high quality bullet than a small one. Is not always true and I don't care to get into a debate on the point, but it led me to do a bit of reading on the topic.

It led to rather in depth examination of all things gyroscopically stabilized and the baggage that goes with it. The salient issues have been mentioned in this thread already and I won't beat a dead horse at this point. Suffice to say, it is a very complex world of physics and few of us have the resources to do our own research. Ballistic science is the foundation of orbital mechanics, among other things. Spin stability is a topic that can make you drool in very short order.

For better or worse the representations made by bullet and mould makers re: BC are a starting point. Real world shooting requires honing that start into a finished product and the further one shoots the more attention to detail is required. It' s a hands on analysis done with many pulls of the trigger.

I said this earlier and restate it only to set my anchor on the practical side of things. I don't think wind drift and related issues are of serious concern to most shooters of cast bullets. I don't consider a 10" correction at 200 yards "serious" for what it's worth. Mostly the ranges are relatively short, the bullet forms do not require fast twists. Mostly. OTOH, there are those that shoot the Sharps at 1 mile out in Wyoming and they will have a different view.

Like Rosanna Rosanna Danna said, "If it ain't one thing it's another."

[Larry Gibson]

Well put Dan......

Larry Gibson

[300savage]

10" at two hundred not significant........
Just the difference between lungs or guts, or shoulder or air.
This has gotten completely ridiculous, wish ya the best.

[SSGOldfart]

under 400 or 500 yards I wouldn't worry about it in the field

[300savage]

This just gets betterer and betterer.

[303Guy]

10 inches at 200yds is serious to me - that'll be because I don't know how to compensate. My one 300m (estimated) wind effect test over a windy gully would have been about 12 inches. That was more than the size of the intended target. I did once try to compensate for strong wind and hit point of aim (too close). Wind drift/deflection is exponential.

My intentions are to set my target in windy conditions so I can see the effects and do some trigger time.

[Digital Dan]

300Savage, an explanation for your benefit. By labeling 10" at 200 as not serious it was intended as describing a simple calculus, as compared to the coyote/canyon shot described by Larry G.

Given a bullet w/ BC of about .340 fired at 1100 fps I know the correction in 5 mph increments and can fudge in between. Given any other bullet an gun combo in the safe I can do the same to what I consider max effective range. The most difficult part as far as I'm concerned is range estimation in the field, not for drop but wind. I've never lost a head of big or small game to a bad shot and that's a big pile of meat.

I don't shoot guts or air.

[300savage]

303 that is exactly the way a man needs to do it IMO.
There is no substitute for trigger time for dang sure. If I might offer a suggestion , take notes.
Range it if you can, angle, wind , temp, altitude.
Then imagine you just glasses up a giant and you have about five seconds to pull this shot off. Then let it rip and see if you would have made a killing shot .
I have seen so many hunters screw around in the moment of truth to the point the game gets tired of hanging out and the shot opportunity is gone.
These hunting shows that show everyone getting prone on their bipods, ranging , pulling out the wind meter and getting an exact read and then talking about it for another five minutes has ruined a lot of shooters.
That is OK on a desert bighorn laying in his bed at five hundred yards with no idea you are on the continent.
Its another when you lock eyes with a critter across a canyon with a twenty five mile an hour crosswind blowing down it.
That shot has got to be happening pretty dang rapido..
Or else you just see their *** going over the ridge .
I had a guy in this situation three different times and he could not close the deal because of too much messing around.
We don't have to hit a dime, we just have to put it through their vitals.

And we need to be able to do that in under about five seconds tops quite often.

[Larry Gibson]

Very serious to me also. I dislike missing when I should know better and should shoot better. I detest gut shots. If I can't put the bullet in game where I want it, I don't shoot. Thus knowing what the wind does to the bullet in flight is just as important as knowing trajectory compensation at any angle. I KNOW I don't have to hold for wind on a heart/lung deer shot but I also KNOW at longer range I may have to. Knowing how much to hold can easily mean the difference between a good shot, a poor shot or a miss. I prefer the good shot. ...

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

I've got a long way to go ..... [smilie=1: I better start making plans!

Thanks all for making this a valuable and interesting thread.:drinks:

[barrabruce]

Hmm shoot into the wind may drag you low but not off, game don't smell or hear you.

I shoot a lot at objects with me 22lr say random 150 -175 190. coke cans.
Yep the wind does sure effect them but it becomes pretty consistant and predictable.

I use the ballistic tables for reference and a cheat sheet.
For real data I test me gun out and correct that.
I haven't seen any data on not perfectly stabalised bullets as a factor.
This plus say me bores condition and scope adjustment difference between going through the tracking and optic abbreviation leaves me to shot mine and make me own up.
Mind you they are pretty well spot on.

Since I don't shoot in that situation I guess I'd.

For the cyotee in the valley I would take a quick guestimate and fire a shot away from it,
See where it landed and walk the next one into it.
I know that's the answer you were looking for thou.
Barra

[kungfustyle]

I don't know if someone else as chimed in with this, but this is a cool tool on Handloads.com. http://handloads.com/calc/index.html punch in the numbers and your up and running. Best of Luck and hope this helps.

[303Guy]

Mmm... I've had a play with that one. I compared it to JBM and found the wind drift to not agree. I wonder which one is wrong. JBM has bullet diameter which handloads does not so I'd lean toward JBM. Also, handloads shows the same drift for a 45° as for a 135° wind while JBM shows a difference which it should. Neither take into account spin rate. Also, handloads shows the same velocity for head winds as for tail winds while JBM shows a difference, again which it should. Neither show a difference in trajectory for head and tail winds. Well, there should be a small difference but maybe not calculate-able at that close a difference and anyway, the spin rate needs to be known. Also the trajectory would be self compensating. The handloads one is much easier to use though.

[Digital Dan]

Don't know that either are "wrong", but the JBM calculator is a fair bit more sophisticated. Spin rate is not a factor, but the gyroscopic stability factor is for LONG shots, because it is variable, increasing as velocity decays over the range of the shot. Sg and RPM's are not the same thing at all.

The difference in amount of drift on equal quartering angles is sufficiently small that it can be disregarded for all but BR shooter I think, particularly inside 300 yards.

Don't get lost in the minutiae my friend.

[300savage]

The best program is a dam good reloading program

[Larry Gibson]

Barrabruce

Out where I hunt/shoot coyote you won't often get a "walking in" second shot. At the 1st shot if it missed the hind paws come up past its ears and it hits 6th gear overdrive in 3 strides. .......if you get a 2nd shot its a hail Mary ......best to learn how to shoot in those conditions and make the 1st shot hit.....unless you jjust like shooting to educate coyote. .......

BTW; that shot is not "into the wind". It is shooting down through the wind. You have to compensate for 2 wind vectors; the side vector and the down vector. Both for the LOS range and add them to the drop correction for the horizontal range......that is if you want a 1st sbot hit.

As mentioned earlier by myself and others correction for wind is many times not necessary when the range is short and the target area large. However, when tbe range gets farther and/or the target area is smaller a correction for trajectory, angle of fire and the wind are all important for a 1st shot hit.

Larry Gibson

[barrabruce]

coyotes 455yrd lasered really 225 yrds 45 deg left
Its a shot angled down 45 degrees
wind 8-12 blowing along at 45 from left.

O.k. from the charts
bc .235 150 grns fp 2100 fps sighted 100 yrds.

normal drop and wind at 90 deg 10 mph
455yds 24.3 moa 55 moa wind
225 yrds 6 moa drop 5.12 wind

Corrected for shot 15.6 moa drop 8 wind.
so for the 225yrd shot I have to hold 20 inches higher and 6 inches to the left more to me on target than normal 225 yrd shot .

Or 50 inches less and 30 inches less wind for the 455yrd lasered shot.
Better??????

I would have shot low and right as predicted but a lot more than I'd have thought.

Now with a suppressed tacticool set- up obiviously with one of them new "laser corrected Ipod scopey setups" I could just yank the trigger when the dot in the recticle changed color and not have to worry about nothing except where I stored the extra batteries!!!! :)

Did I do better this time??Or did I stuff up again??

Seems to me I should have shot
Or is the wind sheering up the canyon face giving me a squirrel tail wind??

Barra

[barrabruce]

Can't half tell I've spent mostly my life as a flat lander.

[Larry Gibson]

Barrabruce

Very good, now we're getting the hang of it. ....always can be unseen air currents shooting across open spaces. Detec every condition you can and make correct adjustments for them and you'll be amazed at how close you hit if not spot on. Its what really separates the great shooters from the rest.

Larry Gibson

[300savage]

Only one other factor to consider, and that is by the time you checked all your different factors off your list Mr coyote has done buggered out of the picture.
So the problem is that all this stuff sounds real jolly sitting in your living room over a latte, out in the bush it will cost you more game than it ever gains you.
Bruce's first answer was not as wrong as it may have appeared, reason being that he dang sure was not afraid to let it fly.
And he would have missed, but he would have learned and done a tad bit of reading and said OK, that begger might be in trouble next time.
The more a person hunts the more they realize that not just dressing up for the part, but actually being successful at bringing game home is more of an art than a science.
I am not saying however that understanding the mechanics of shooting up and downhill, in the wind, different altitudes and temps, heck according to your horoscope even it appears is not important.
Because it is.
But only , only if we get off our fat duffs and get out there and start burning ammo in real life practice.
Taking shots from hunting positions, in hunting conditions.

Too much work? Never said it wasn't.
Just said that is what it took.

[Digital Dan]

I'd guess most folks that hunt adopt styles appropriate to the environment? I'm more of a stalker than a long range shooter. Still hunting as it's called here in the south. Having spent long periods of time in very close quarters with deer, hogs, 'yotes, turkey and more, the five second drill you mention...the basis eludes me. Figuring that if I can spend 5 minutes waiting for the shot at 10-15 yards, I might be able to wait more than 5 seconds for longer shooting.

That said, knowing what a load/gun combo does with drift or drop, the calculation shouldn't take that long. Finding the multiples does take some trigger time, but the ballistics programs are a useful starting point.

[M-Tecs]

I hunt antelope using both archery and rifle. There is so little hunting pressure during archery season it not that difficult to get within 30 yards. After the first hour of firearm season it becomes quite difficult to get within 300 yards so the ability to read the wind is very beneficial.

After a fair amount of practices wind reading becomes second nature and it really doesn't have to add additional time to get the shot off. It really is no different than a quarterback leading a running receiver. It takes time to trig it out but if you know the data and you practice enough it doesn't have to take additional time. More precision can be gained by evaluating the conditions as precisely as possible but knowing the general wind speed and clock direction is just part of normal situational awareness for me when hunting.

My preference is that all my shots be as close as possible. Hunting whitetail in the wood a 100 yard shot is really long range. Hunting antelope on the open flats 300 yards might be a close shot.

If you never shoot long enough distance so wind becomes a factor don't worry about it but if you do shoot long enough distance so it is a factor start thinking about it as a situational awareness issue. If you do you will always have a firing solution BEFORE the shot presents itself.

[Larry Gibson]

300savage

Please don't get riled or affronted because what I'm about to say is an explanation, not criticism.

Points made in your last post are excuses and the max effective range of any of them is zero yards.

Let me explain; that coyote across the canyon is already in 6th gear overdrive IF it knows you are there and any shot taken will simply be a "hail mary". If the coyote doesn't know you are there you will probably have plenty of time to get into position, note the conditions, make sight corrections or determine hold off/over and make the shot IF YOU KNOW HOW AND UNDERSTAND THE BALLISTICS. I've hunted the big canyon country of NE Oregon, high desert areas and shot enough long range in matches and the Army to have learned that. All of the long range shots I've made on big game (not really that many) over 200 yards the game did not know I was there and I had plenty of time. I've also shot enough coyotes, rock chucks, ground squirrels, picket pins, crows, magpies, and such along with rocks, ant and termite hills along with assorted other targets out to 1600 yards away. I've used cartridges from the .22LR to the 50 BMG for such. I've stretched most every cartridge used to it's limits, some to 2400 meters. In the Army I've stretched the 50 BMG, and other sniper cartridges to their max also. If the target is inanimate or doesn't know you're there you most often have plenty of time.

Practice does not make perfect.........it only perfects..........

If you are doing something consistently wrong or not do something (like making the correct wind and elevation corrections) you will continue to miss, just miss better and that is all you are "perfecting". Sitting at home and learning the why of what happens to the bullet in flight and understanding it will help you make those corrections in the field. Simply shooting in the field and not understanding why you mised will not teach you what the proper correction for the next shot under different conditions should be. It only teaches where the last shot went........Learning the why and what the proper corrections will get you more game in the field and more points in a match.

Perhaps the act of shooting can be said to be an art of sorts. Give an equally accurate rifle and ammuntion some are just able to shoot better marksmanshipwise than others. However, the bullet in flight is pure ballistics which is science. if the lessor shooter understands the science and makes and applies the proper corrections he will out shoot the "artful" shooter at long rangew ho does not undersand the science every time. I have seen it to many times during rifle training, matches and sniper training. Being a "good shot" is only half of the equation.

"I am not saying however that understanding the mechanics of shooting up and downhill, in the wind, different altitudes and temps, heck according to your horoscope even it appears is not important.
Because it is." .............discounting the horoscope gag this is the essence of what I am saying and you obviously agree. The "mechanics" is the science.

Yes practice is indeed important. There is a reason for every miss. If we do not understand the science of what that reason is we are doomed to continually make the same miss. Understanding the science and the reason for the miss and properly making adjustments and corrections is what will make us better shots. We can put a thousand rounds down range and not be btter shots if we don't learn and understand.

There is not magic, art, wizardry or witchcraft to shooting well at long range....uphill, down hill or in the wind.........it takes skill at shooting and knowledge of ballistics. Without both you are just lobbing "hail mary's".........

Larry Gibson

[300savage]

Larry I actually appreciate you more than most on this site, I think your real and I get the feeling you are a pretty good guy.
Now perhaps I should share a tad about where I am coming from if you don't mind.
I am a shooter, and have studied drop and wind charts till my eyes have crossed, I savvy it,, enough.
I have been taught for years by a Vietnam vet who was a sniper and who has forgotten more than you or I will ever know.
Which is fine, I don't need nor want to know it all.
I am not a paper puncher, I am a killer.
I pull a trigger for one of only three reaspns , to develop a load, to test that load, and to make something lay down and play dead with that load.
I lived most of my life not far from you, hunting coyotes and wild dogs on our half million acres of ranches North of King man.
I savvy the coyote pretty darn well.
You mentioned varmints, perhaps you have heard of the antelope eaters predator hunting contest based out of Seligman Az? The one that gets well over two hundred teams entered?
I taught a friend of mine who had never predator hunted and we won it five years in a row.
I took a break and then came back and won it again for the last time just before I moved to Texas.
I have hunted in Canada, Alaska, Hawaii, and Australia. And quite a bit of the lower 48.
Now with that said I will say that you are for sure not wrong, nor is Danny digit,"sorry buddy I just gotta give ya grief over that one"
Nor is anyone here like 303 that wants to take it to the ninth degree and pencil the poor buggers to death..
But there is a fine line where if we are not careful we go overboard and forget what really makes things die.
A piece of metal in the vitals.
Oh and before I forget I was also one of the five who founded and created the Predator Masters website.
I just had too much going on and too many employees at the time and as anyone knows who is a part of one of these sites they will take up way too much time, at times.
So after I was sure it was up, going and safe which fulfilled my promise to the original owner of the site before he passed ,I backed out and let better people run it.

Larry I do understand, maybe not as much as you or double D, but I know what it takes to kill game.
I am very good at that end

Next time I am back at the ranches perhaps we could meet in king man for a cup of coffee.
Or if you want I might have a chance to take you on a coyote hunt on the ranch. I will assure you things will perish.

Take care, sincerely Craig Hamilton

[Larry Gibson]

I have heard of the Seligman hunt but am new to AZ hunting and am very interested in it. Sounds like we've a lot in common. Be more than happy to have coffee or whatever in Kingman. Give me a PM when you head this way. Maybe we could even get some shooting in.

Larry Gibson

[Digital Dan]

Excellent post above Larry, thank you for that.

[Digital Dan]

Craig, I hunted quite a bit in Vietnam. The physics are the same.

[300savage]

Your right DD they are, when you got the time.
When you don't you better have it pretty well imprinted in your gut.
OR you don't take the shot, I just might take the shot based on what my subconscious tells me.
But that's just me.
And about a jillion rounds behind me in all kinds of situations and conditions.

[Digital Dan]

You take the shot when you have incoming, trust me.

[300savage]

Situational dynamics, they do change from shot to shot and moment to moment.
If a man is not first and foremost aware of these he is a poser in a sniper suit.
The same for game.

But of course you know and I am about to get one upped.
Knock yerself out, the point has been made.

[303Guy]

Yes, I admit it - I'm at the pencilling stage although believe it or not I'm not actually doing much pencilling. Just listening to you folks so I know what to 'try to do' when I get out there. I've played a little with JBM and realised just how significant all the factors at play are. Trajectory is fine, I've got that sussed (although I do need to refresh myself) but wind effects is something I've never felt the need to master - until now (or is that a desire?) I do like to get an understanding of what's happening. My goal is to get to your level so your input (Larry and the others too) is greatly appreciated and I thank you all for a very informative thread.:drinks:

Now to get out there into the hills and wind!

[300savage]

Yeah buddy ! It won't be long and you will be known as the kiwi Dan'l Boone !!

Or Death on a stick ..
Doctor BOOM ..
Bang master..
Wind Wizzerd..
The AntiGoat..

With a book to write ,perhaps
"Small furry critters blood in the long grass"

[leftiye]

Love that Capstick. Cape Buffalo at 10 paces with a spear anyone?

[Digital Dan]

303, dunno if you can find copy in you neighborhood but if so "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold Vaughn is worth the time it takes to get thru it.

[M-Tecs]

I don't know if it any good but I just ordered The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters by Keith Cunningham, Linda Miller
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-wind-book-for-rifle-shooters-keith-cunningham/1018756630?ean=9781581605327.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wind-Book-Rifle-Shooters/product-reviews/1581605323/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1