What alloy in S&W 52?

[Ia.redneck]

I have acquired a S&W 52 for our winter pistol league. I am currently trying to match the accuracy of store bought swaged hbwc handloads with cast wadcutters. I've tried range lead and pure lead. The range lead gave less flyers. Am thinking maybe clip on ww metal next. Been sizing at .358. Bore is 5 grove so being a flunkie at math, cant really tell what groove diameter is. Thanks in advance! Dale

[NoZombies]

For the 52-2 that I had, the softer the bullets were, the better it liked them, all other things being equal.

For me the trick was finding the sweet spot in the load, and working from there. I recall it was something like 2.7 grains of bullseye under a 150 grain WC seated flush. I only lubed one groove in the WC and cast it from pure lead. .358 will probably work, most of the 52's I've seen had .356 bores.

[historicfirearms]

My 52 had a .356 groove as near as I could measure. When I sized .358 accuracy went down, .357 was better. I don't think wheel weights would be necessary, but shouldn't hurt to try. I used range lead with some tin in mine.

[roysha]

30-1 lead to tin. I used pure lead and 50-50 solder to make my alloy. 2.7 grains of Bullseye and sized .357 148 grain DEWC seated with the sprue up. Gun and load shot better than I could hold.

[HeavyMetal]

soft lead size 357 one lube groove lubed, mine prefers the bottom groove, there are several button nose designs out but mine has always prefered HBWC's.

Bought MiHec's 38 HBWC group buy four cavity HBWC mold and never looked back! 2.7 grains Bullseye one lube groove lubed match prep'd brass and it will shoot into one hole all day long at 25 yards.

[Char-Gar]

It really does not matter what the groove diameter of your barrel is. Back in the day when Bulleye shooting was all the rage, none of us were able to duplicate factor target wadcutter accuracy with handloads. We practiced with reloads and fired factory ammo in the matches. You best bet it to buy Remington factory swaged HB wadcutter and load them over 2.7 - 3 grains of Bulleye in wadcutter brass.

[Ia.redneck]

Thanks for the input so far guys. I have been working with 3 different wc molds. Lyman 358063, RCBS 140 double ended, and the MiHec HBWC group buy 4cav. I had the highest hopes for the MiHec but so far it is doing the worst.
I have a 2x scope on a grip mount for load testing and everything is tight. Been shooting handguns for 40yrs. I tested my Browning 22 this same way and can cover 10 shots of CCI SV with a nickel from that! I don't think its operator error.
I will try sizing at .357 and add a little tin to my pure lead and keep testing. Lots of variables!

[Ia.redneck]

Char-Gar, that was my plan to use the factory for matches and cast for practice. I've read that it is very hard to duplicate factory match ammo.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar, that was my plan to use the factory for matches and cast for practice. I've read that it is very hard to duplicate factory match ammo.

Do you understand the difference between regular 38 Special brass and 38 Special wadcutter brass? You are wasting your time with HBWCs, unless you do. I am not trying to insult your understanding of these matter, but it would seem that fewer and fewer reloaders understand this these days.

38 Special HBWCs are special needs bullet when it comes to cases and expanders. Solid base WCs are far less finicky. But when properly loaded the HBWC is the accuracy champ.

[Ia.redneck]

Ya, I do. Have been using Federal brass that was Gold Metal factory wadcutters. (Boy that stuff's expensive) mostly got it for the brass. I'm even using a set of RCBS dies that are marked 38wc. From what I've read the expander on that set goes a little deeper into the case.
I will make this work, will just take a little more work than I first planned.

[HeavyMetal]

Char-Gar is correct about the difference in 38 brass something else I learned is std 38 dies over size the brass as well!

Part of my load development for my 52 was wrapped around modifiying a sizing die to minimize the amount of brass "work" I was subjecting the case to. Case sizing is accomplished with just a lite coat of Imperial sizing die wax, case's are then tumbled a second time to remove the lube, case's are hand primed with a Lee tool.

in the end I took a Lyman 310 die and polished it in my lathe until it just allowed a HBWC to be seated with finger pressure. This die sits in Lyman adapter to 7/8x14 thread size in my Lee Challanger press and I use a 500 round batch of Federal match case's.

The end result is rounds that work perfectly in my 52, but because they are set up specifically for that pistol they won't work in my Police Positive Colt the base has not been sized enough to allow complete chambering.

So this is a custom made die set up specifically for my S&W model 52 using specific brass with the MeHic HBWC mold.

Not as complicated as it reads but if your wanting your reloads to perform to factory match ammo levels it's what needs to be done.

[Ia.redneck]

Thanks for that tip HeavyMetal. I had wondered about that. The chambers on my 686 are actually tighter than on this Model 52.
I will pursue that if I cant get results using conventional methods.

[HeavyMetal]

my library is currently in storage but it seems to me the First edition of the cast bullet manual, the thick gray one by Handloader magazine, had several early articles on 38 Spec. target wadcutter loads, including the one that got me to polish out my old 310 sizing die until I could just push a boolit into the case.

See if you can find a copy it has many very good articles in it, including the ones on 38 special target loads.

[Ia.redneck]

I will do that. Thank you!

[Char-Gar]

Ya, I do. Have been using Federal brass that was Gold Metal factory wadcutters. (Boy that stuff's expensive) mostly got it for the brass. I'm even using a set of RCBS dies that are marked 38wc. From what I've read the expander on that set goes a little deeper into the case.
I will make this work, will just take a little more work than I first planned.

You are in for a disappointment with those RCBS WC dies. The expander is the same as in other dies and the only difference is the contour of the seating stem. I have two of those expanders that came in WC dies and neither of them were longer than the regular expander.

Depending on the age of your dies, the expander is .357 or .356. These will work for solid base WCs, but HBWC are longer for their weight and the skirts can be compressed by horsing them down into unexpanded cases.

There was a time when RCBS sold special long expanders for HBWCs for use with the wadcutter brass with the long parallel sides before the taper as the case head. The special expanders in additional to being long were also .3585 in diameter. This expander prevented the skirt from being collapsed. I suspect this is the source of your disappointment with HBWCs, this far.

Here is a pic of four RCBS expanders to show the difference. From left to right, they are:

1. A circa 1958 expander that measures .357
2. A circa 1974 expander that measure .356 (The world had gone to jacketed bullet by this time)
3. A 1964 (.357) expander that came in a WC set of dies that I modified on my lathe for a longer reach into the case. I left a little .360 seating shelf, a la Lyman M dies.
4. A RCBS long .3585 expander for use with HBWC bullets. Call RCBS today about one of these and they don't know what you are talking about. The only way I know to get one is to make it.

[Ia.redneck]

Thanks Char-Gar. I just put a mic on mine and it's .356 I bought those dies around 1973. I see what u mean. Wonder what the expander for 38S&W measures compared to the special? Maybe I could buy one to try. I do have a helpful local machine shop here also. I hope you had that pic in your files and didn't go to all that trouble just for me!!

[Char-Gar]

Thanks Char-Gar. I just put a mic on mine and it's .356 I bought those dies around 1973. I see what u mean. Wonder what the expander for 38S&W measures compared to the special? Maybe I could buy one to try. I do have a helpful local machine shop here also. I hope you had that pic in your files and didn't go to all that trouble just for me!!

I am something of a 38 Special nut and had the pic in my files. To get a larger expander there are two ways I know of;

1. The older Lyman 310 dies came with a .358 expander in the 38 Special dies and a .357 expander in the .357 magnum die. Later when they went to 38/357 dies, they used a .357. These dies can be used in a press with an adapter for the threads. The standard Lyman dies use the same .356 expanders as does the RCBS except it has a second .360 step in it's M style expanders.

2. Track of the Wolf sells expanders in .001 increments and they may be something there you can use. I don't know about length of the expander, but they are made for rifle rounds, so they are probably longer.

Here is a pick of some Lyman expanders, left to right they are;

1. 310 die .358 X .360
2. 310 die .357 X .359
3. 38p expander .356 X 360

I have a set of Lyman 38 S&W dies, they use the same .356 X .360 38p expanders as does the 38 Special. I don't know about RCBS or other makes.

[Char-Gar]

A little more 38 Special wadcutter miscellany:

The HB wadcutter will outshoot the solid base in the proper cases and loaded the proper way because the hollow base pushed the center of weight forward increasing the stability. Think of it like a shuttle cock.

But load the HB wadcutter the wrong way or in the wrong case and it will trail the solid base wadcutter in accuracy by a good margin.

An additional issue is the propensity to blow the skirt off if the pressure is raised to high, which is much beyond the anemic target wacutter velocities. However in his regard, not all factory swaged wadcutters are not the same ( I have not tried casting HBWCs and don't plan to). The Speer will blow off the skirt in a heart beat. The others no so much, but you have to be careful and keep a good watch to make certain the barrel is clear of blow off skirts until you have established your load is safe.

Now a word about 38 Special sizing dies;

When the carbide die came along, I thought it was a wonderful thing, as no more lubing of cases. But down the years I learned the carbide die brought more curses than blessings.

The older steel dies, produced sized cases with a pronounced neck, which was expanded to receive the bullets and the bottom of the case was just sized enough to take it to factory specs.

The carbide dies did not produce a case with a smaller neck, but a case that was squeezed down almost to the base. This worked the brass more as it expanded when fired and squeezed back down again when sized. Throw in the fact that the cases were looser in the charge holes with a carbide die.

The Lyman 310 dies only neck size the cases, which works fine if they are reloaded for the same pistol. But, might give problems if used in another pistol. I have no idea if neck sized cases will work in a Smith 52 autopistol.

Bottom line: Were I looking for a 38 Special load for a Smith 52 I would stick with the solid base wadcutter for it presents far less issues in the reloading process than the HBWC. Just consider the purchase of the HBWC mold as part of the learning curve and sell it on Ebay.

Accept the slightly less accuracy of the solid base in your practice ammo and use the good factory stuff when the match starts.

I think all of the above stuff in my posts give some strong clues as to why handloaded 38 Special wadcutter ammo is most often inferior to factory match loads.

[Ia.redneck]

Thank you very much for all that information. That's why I asked here, there is a lot to learn, even for an old dog :-)
I do have a steel sizer die for the 38 and when I measured the resized cases from that, they were exactly as you described, sized less at the bottom.
This gives me more to consider and experiment with. I imagine I would see better results spending my time practicing than trying to wring that last tiny bit of accuracy out of my reloads! But it's all fun!
Thanks again, Dale

[KCSO]

The book "The Best of Gun Digest has a whole article by IIRR Clark on loaind for accuracy in the M52. He goes through bullets powders and such to match or exceed factory ammo specs and has several loads that shot smaller groups than W/W match ammo.

[Ia.redneck]

Thank you sir! I will look for that article. Much appreciated.