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JSH
08-20-2005, 09:49 AM
I have had this rascal for several years, it never really did impress me in the accuracy department. I am going to try cast and figure to make this my winter pistol project. So if all of you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to what I need to check to properly fit a boolit to a revolver.
I only have one 44 mold for the time being,a 245PB. I had shot some 300's in FLGC's in the past with better luck, am leaning that way if I am advised to do so. This will be used from 50M-200M. I could live with a 6" group at 200, but I wouldn't like it, 3-4" would be more to my liking.
If this one will not shoot it will be sent packing and an FA will be found to replace it. So please help me save some $$$$, lol.


I might also add I think this would be a good one to keep on a "sticky" as this subject can have a LOT of variations from some of the reading I have done. I have talked to a lot of guys that have had problems with cast in revolvers, this would give a starting point for them at least.

Thanks in advance.
Jeff

Willbird
08-20-2005, 10:04 AM
The first thing I would check is the dia of the cyl throats, you can cast a few from the mold you have, if they don't drop thru the throats like a dog eating steak that is a good start.

I would lay in a supply of H110 and Lilgun to start with.........depending on whether you want to run hot or not, The Lilgun will give H110 and better velocities with much lower pressure BTW.

also go to www.leverguns.com and click into John Linbaughs page and read ALL of what he has to say, lots of good magnum revolver stuff there.

Bill

9.3X62AL
08-20-2005, 11:04 AM
Dittoes to all the above, and another little hint........don't immediately jump to the 1350-1400 FPS bracket if you are seeking ACCURACY, esp. with the plain base designs. Try 2400 powder, and give 1100-1200 FPS a test drive before running things at full throttle. To quote Elmer Keith--"1200 FPS is all you need."

This sort of fallback to tamer velocities seems like anathema in this age of hyper-velocity. One needs to look no further than the black powder cartridge shooters engaging targets WAY OUT THERE with heavy-for-caliber subsonic boolits to see that it doesn't take Mach 2 performance to reach out and hit something--just ballistic consistency. Staying at 1100 FPS subtracts the trans-sonic disturbance (and possible dispersion) from the equation entirely, and once a boolit/bullet goes sub-sonic it sheds velocity at a slower rate than it did at Mach 1+. Add in that the operator isn't getting thumped as hard at each shot, it's all positives in my view.

BruceB
08-20-2005, 11:50 AM
Speaking STRICTLY for myself , and as one who's played with many different handguns in quite a few formal and informal shooting games, I find that your proposed 3" to 4" groups at TWO HUNDRED yards to be impractical, if not outright impossible from a stock revolver.

What is the purpose of such a requirement? Steel silhouette certainly doesn't need such accuracy, although I'll admit it would be nice to have. There are legions of scope-sighted rifles out there that will not consistently deliver 3-4"@ 200 yards, let alone handguns. We shot a lot of IHMSA events with iron-sighted .44 revolvers (i.e.: out to 200 METERS), and never felt the need of such groups. For hunting purposes, except varminting, the .44 is problematical for clean hits by the time it gets that far, in my book. Its trajectory is extremely high and good bullet placement grossly difficult.

If you're involved in an accuracy search just for giggles, wonderful! Apart from that, I'd be happy with much looser groups at that extended range. I'd expect that a gas-checked and rather streamlined bullet design would be the place to start. All my .44 bullets are now sized at .431", and this diameter serves well in several guns of different manufacture.

NVcurmudgeon
08-20-2005, 12:14 PM
My favorite .44 Magnum load is 7.0 Green Dot which move the RCBS version of the Keith 250 gr. PB out at 920-970 fps depending on barrel length. This load not only helps me to keep them in the nine ring at 25 yards, break a lot of clays at 50 yards, and make the rocks keep their heads down at 2000 yards. It is also pleasant to shoot for a large number of rounds.

NVcurmudgeon
08-20-2005, 12:15 PM
Oops, two hundred, not two thousand!

XBT
08-20-2005, 01:51 PM
Moderate charges of 2400 (1200 FPS) leave lots of unburned powder in my 8 3/8” bbl. M-29. I can get about the same velocity using Unique, which burns more completely. I’m with Elmer on this one, 240 grn. boolits at 1200 FPS work very well in my .44.

As for 3-4 inch groups at 200 yds., the gun MIGHT do it, but I certainly can’t. With my old tired eyes I would be happy with groups twice that size.

9.3X62AL
08-20-2005, 02:02 PM
Good point on the "powder debris" issue, XBT. It's not something that causes me any grief, so I overlook it. Unique is less expensive, too--less powder per load. This assumes similar pricing for the two fuels.

Much of my 41 and 44 Magnum shooting these days gets done with "standard" weight cast SWCs flung at 900-950 FPS. I gotta try the Green Dot powder with these calibers--mostly I've used WW-231, Bullseye, and Herco. With all the shotshells I've loaded over the last 35 years, I've yet to use Green Dot.

JSH
08-20-2005, 02:44 PM
BruceB, yes IHMSA is what it is. Maybe I am being to greedy on my wants for the 200M? If I had it to do over I would go with a 357 magnum rather than the 44 now. Bottom line is, the 40x40 is the easy part, it is when the shoot offs come out that seperate the slop from the not. Yes I may be wanting a lot from a S&W, but I know what I am up against too.
Ditto to the 'magnumitis". I have had better luck with 38 loads in the 357 cases. All you have to do is knock the blasted thing over, not bend it in half.
The only problem I may have with an 1100fps load is that I could run out of elevation with stock sights at 200.
I think I may have a tough row to hoe with this one, but I am at least hoping to be able to keep up with a DW.
Jeff

45 2.1
08-20-2005, 02:49 PM
The only problem I may have with an 1100fps load is that I could run out of elevation with stock sights at 200.
Jeff

Jeff-
Use the most accurate load, even if lower velocity. Investigate useing the Keith cross bars on the front sight, they work very well for this.

JSH
08-20-2005, 04:47 PM
45 2.1, this is S&W's silhoutte model, 105/8" barrel with a 4 position front sight. It has a fair amount of elevation. I use a 6 o'clock hold, or like too, rather than center. If I use a center hold I tend to lose it on elevation, front sight comes and goes as the targets are black.
"Use the most accurate load, even if lower velocity"
That is pretty much my thoughts, but it has to get there too. I have only started thinking about this project, so hopefully I have time to make it come together by next year. IMHO, revolvers will get the best of you day in and day out. It is like shooting 5 or 6 barrels on one gun. Then they are SOOOoo grip sensitive.
Jeff

David R
08-20-2005, 05:24 PM
I agree with using a gas check even if not needed. It makes for a nice flat consistant boolit base and that is important. My best revolver groups are with a smith model 25 in 45 colt with a 5" barrel. 4 to 6 inches @ 100 yards with a scope. 900 fps. I never tried it at 200, but you have me wondering. I took the scope off it when I bought a Ruger super redhawk. The 45 is so nice with out the scope.

44man
08-23-2005, 07:18 PM
JSH, after years of IHMSA shooting and a great deal of experience with the model 29, I will say to use a heavy bullet. I watched thousands of bullets going downrange from the 29 and bullets that weigh around 240 grs. will corkscrew around the line of flight. Going to 300 grs. will eliminate the problem. This gun will shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's. It is extremely grip sensitive and shoots better offhand then from Creedmore. The way the gun is held from relay to relay will cost you a match. I had 5 of them and sold them all because of this problem. I never seen a 29 in the winners circle, as accurate as the gun can be. I have shot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's, put down the gun to repaint the target and shot another 1/2" group, but 10" away from the first group because I held the gun different.
I went to Rugers and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80.
Your gun will shoot cast just fine, but the same thing holds, stay away from the lighter boolits. Fit them to the throats and you will be OK.

Char-Gar
08-23-2005, 11:03 PM
I fancy myself knowledgeable about Smith and Wesson handguns, their care, feeding and potential. I am also a reasonable good shoot with allot of experience, powder and lead behind me for 40 years with these guns.

Maybe, I am just deluded, stupid or out of the loop, but I have never known a model 29 that can deliver the level of accuracy you are seeking. If you can get a Model 29 to put a cylinderful of plain base sixgun bullets into 1.5" at 25 yards, you have a real shooter and a good load. On a good day with your Karma in order, you might shoot a few groups smaller. But day in and day out 1.5" is all you will realize.

That translates into 3" at 50 and 6" at 100 and 12" at 200. This assumes a linear level of accuracy which is seldom the case. At ranges of 100 yards and beyond gas check bullets will outshoot plain base bullets.

The notion is wanting 3-4" 200 yards groups borders on fantasy. This would require 25 yards groups of 1/2 " or less and such groups would be a fluke and not within the everyday accuracy potential of a factory Smith 29.

Char-Gar
08-23-2005, 11:16 PM
Please disregard my previous post..I have thought better about posting it..I don't want to start a disagreement..Maybe you guys are just so far ahead of me I can't think or shoot on that level. Let's just call it that and let it go. Who am I to say that 1/2 50 yard six shot groups are bunk?

JSH
08-23-2005, 11:45 PM
Chargar, no need to feel that way. I am not of the "thin skinned" type. I listen and read here to learn from what others have experianced, may save some time and effort. Actually, maybe the 3-4" group at 200 is a fantasy with a S&W? That was a rough guess on my part to be honest with you. I could probably live with a 6-8" group, but wouldn't like it.
The 40x40 is some what of a chore with iron sights with just about any gun, but a blasted revolver throws so many variables in there that it will discipline you for a lot of other areas.
44man, not to disagree with you or anything. I have had several Rugers in the past. The only one I ever had that shot worth a hoot was a 10" barreled .22. Traded that for a 22/45, because I was believeing what the gun rag writers were throwing out at that point in time. The 22/45 has been a problem child since day one. I could make it shoot but, would probaly cost me in extra $$ what a used 41 would, then I would still have a $200 pistol.
I looked at the Ruger hunter package a few years back and came close to buying one before I talked myself out of it.
Did you have to do much work on your Rugers to get them to shoot cast well? I was shooting FLGC's, 220's,240's and 300's. The 300's did shoot quite a bit better than the shorter bullets as you described above.
I have seen the DW's and FA's shoot very well, with the DW's leaving somthing to be desired it always seemed like. That drops me back to square one. I won't be able to modify said revolver and still be able to use it in that class. That leaves me at an FA. I do have a few gathering dust that could be parted with to fund this project.

Chargar, I do believe I could get groups to shrink consistantly, but with a few modifications that the rules will not allow. Also I think by the time I figured in the cost of the gun, machine work, and extras I would more than likely be at the price of a good used FA.
Still all in all I would like a 300 grain 44 bullet mold to fool with, so all is not at a loss.
Thanks for the input and don't be shy about expressing ones self around here.
Jeff

felix
08-24-2005, 12:19 AM
Charger, if every shot touches, it's a half inch group for all practical purposes. I can do it quite often (in my younger days) with stock sights at 50 feet on a solid rest, but only with very certain loads with very certain revolters, two of which are smiths, and one ruger out of about 15 of them on the shelf. The are off the shelf guns except for trigger work. Now, 50 yards? 30 years ago with a scope, maybe, but doubtful in my hands. ... felix

buck1
08-24-2005, 12:54 AM
""If this one will not shoot it will be sent packing and an FA will be found to replace it. ""


I am no Smith fan. I earned that the hard way.( my opinion only)
Wile Rugers can be tuned to do quite well, No stock revolver I have had in my hands is even close th a FA!!
A line bored cyl is a must for those sub-tiny groups. IMHO...Buck
PS 2400 will burn cleaner with heavier boolits.

Poorboy
08-24-2005, 01:28 AM
JSH

You boys Must BE GOOD!!! 40x40 WOW!!!! If I shot that the shootoff would be fun. I shoot NRA Hunter Pistol and while I know 40x40 has been done, I have not seen it in over 60 matches, we are just bad shooters I guess.

Our 100 meter ram is 6 inches from top of back to bottom of belly and IIRC the 200 meter ram is 12 inches. So, gun and load needed for a sure fire hit at 200 meters is a 12 INCH GROUP. Now, we do shoot offhand on our hind legs like a man, do y'all use a rest or support?

Got a 29 just like yours, but have not worked up a lite load for it. I do like the idea of the AFS on that 10 1/2 in. barrel. Please let me know your load for the 3-4 inch group on 200 meter rams when you find it. Think I"ll use it. [smilie=l:

Char-Gar
08-24-2005, 12:16 PM
Felix..With a good sixgun I have put five rounds in one jagged hole at 50 feet often. The sixth round always landed ust out of the hole. Sixguns are funny that way. At 25 yards, in my salad days and a good SMith I could get 1 -1.5 inch groups, pretty much on demand and was well pleased with that. Back of to fifty yards and 2"s made me proud as punch with 3" being more common.

Have I ever fired a half inch 50 yard group? Sure..but it was a fluke and could not be duplicated at will. The accuracy of a hangun is not the occasional photo op groups, but what it can do on demand. The same can be said for the shooter.

When I was a fuzzy cheeked lad, I hung out and shot with some grizzled old guys who cut their teeth at Camp Perry back in the early 20's and continue to shoot high score matches into their 60's. On occasion I would show them one of my bragging groups. They would just smile and say, when you can do that summer or winter, rain or shin, cloudy or overcast, no wind or windy you will be a champion. Until you can do that, you are just got lucky on one day.

All to often, shooters today can't (or don't) distinguish between a lucky day and the accuracy potential of the gun and shooter.

I have never know of any box stock SMith 29 or shooter that could produce half inch 50 yards groups on demand. Maybe it can be done, but it is way outside of my experience which is considerable.

I have never fired one single round through a handgun with a scope or one of those single shot handrifles, so I cannot speak to what those things will do. I really have no desire to find out.

felix
08-24-2005, 01:00 PM
You are absolutely correct, Charger! It takes one cool cat and one cool gun to shoot half inch groups on demand. In fact, I have NEVER done it. Maybe two rounds touching at 50 yards, but that is my wibbles compensating for my wobbles in that one instance. So, again, it's impossible for me to make that kind of group a reality with or without scope, especially today. I'm lucky to make beer cans bounce at that distance when shooting open sights offhand. ... felix

9.3X62AL
08-24-2005, 03:40 PM
It just occurred to me that I shoot about as well double-action as single-action with S&W/Colt/Ruger double action revolvers. I suspect the reason for the double-action consistency is the consistent grip pressure and hand placement on the revolver during D/A shooting, a thing less apt to happen with the single action trigger sequence. Fact is, I probably shoot BETTER D/A than S/A.

44man
08-27-2005, 09:12 AM
You fellas have run into the main problem with the S&W---grip sensitivity. The average shooter will get 10" to 12" groups at 50 yd's with them. The gun is actually extremely accurate if you do not take your hand off of it. But if you shoot 6 and put the gun down, then shoot 6 more, do not expect the same point of impact. This is why it has never won in silhouette matches.
I do not find this problem with single actions, although they are not as accurate, you can hold them any which way. The SRH is very slightly sensitive and needs a firm hold. You can't hold it firm one shot and loose for the next. You also can't squeeze the life out of the grips, but it is predictable.
The S&W is too hard to figure and no matter how hard I tried, I could not hold it the same. I would hit 5 chickens dead center and miss the next 5. Maybe super glueing it to my hand would have done it.
Here is a pop can shot at 200 yd's with a SRH and a 4X scope.

rockrat
08-27-2005, 09:33 AM
I once had a 29 like yours that I used in IHMSA(miss it, no longer aound here). Used a 295gr SWC for 1" groups on the chickens, but opened up at longer ranges(my fault, not the guns). Used 7.0 ww231 for plinking and chickens and 296 + the Homraday 265 for matches. Think I would go to Lil Gun now if I still shot IHMSA. Would like to finds another 10.625" gun to replace the blown up one(light charge /slow powder). Good luck

44man
08-30-2005, 05:03 PM
Felix, I went down today to check the point of impact between three boolits. I had my SBH .44 and 5 of my 330 boolits from my home made mold. 5- 310 gr. Lee boolits and 5- 320 gr. LBT WLNGC boolits. The big circle is my aiming point. I shot my boolits first but had the aiming point turned the other way. It is orange on the other side and I could not see it. Those are the unmarked holes. I turned the aiming circle around. Next are the Lee boolits with the black circles and the LBT's have orange circles.
I hope you appreciate that I was using a red dot sight that covers a great deal of the target and I was shooting Creedmore off the side of my leg---no sandbags.
HOW FAR? 200 yd's. As you can see all boolits have the same point of impact. Drop was 25".
Now, can you imagine what the gun can do with a strong scope and a rest?

felix
08-30-2005, 05:28 PM
44man, you'd da' man widda' gun! I don't know anyone who can outdo the combination as shown especially, and perhaps even with a bolt action pistol. I even doubt the sight picture you have with the big dot can be improved upon while in the Creedmore position. There is still wiggle control to overcome, and a finer scope won't cut through enough in my hands even off of a concrete bench. ... felix

JSH
08-30-2005, 06:08 PM
I am not directing this at any one. But, you guys that have never been to an IHMSA match real should stop by and at least watch one.
I believe that the general public looks at a handgun as I do a shotgun. To me a shotgun is nothing more than a tool, like a claw hammer or a shovel.
I have seen others, and been responsible myself for putting a few rifle shooters in there place with a pistol.
Funny some folks don't consider a pistol a pistol unless it shoots a straight walled cartridge. Myself, anything with a 14" barrel or shorter and I will let it be at that.
Jeff

felix
08-30-2005, 06:35 PM
Jeff, one of these days, I might be able to partake an IHMSA pistol match. I have been to quite a few rifle matches, and have seen guys with their trick triggered guns knock off all of the rams in sequence without fail. Mostly 30-06's and 308's at the time, during 1978-1979 at the Freeport Texas range. It was quite an experience for me shooting offhand, and just coming off the BR circuit (1972-1976) made it that much more difficult to shoot offhand with such quick triggers. However, not many folks I talked to in Freeport ever shot little bitty groups. Group shooting and animal shooting are completely different phycho dealies, at least to me. You can direct any inquiries you like at me directly, and even mention my name too. ... felix

7br
08-31-2005, 07:13 AM
I am not directing this at any one. But, you guys that have never been to an IHMSA match real should stop by and at least watch one.Jeff

Jeff, a few years back I attended a match up at Tri-Co. Bob C. and Chris D. tied in Unlimited with 40x40's. Both were using pretty stock xp-100's in 7br. Chris lost the shootoffs with 7x10 chickens at 200meters. As I recalled, Bob went 9x10.

I am working on finishing the corrupting of my nephew. He has always loved to hunt, fish and shoot. He is going to spend a few months with us until he gets established here. During this time, he is going to have complete access to my loading/casting bench as well as my gunsafe. We just got him classified in smallbore UAS and Revolver. He is now talking about a center grip conversion for an anschutz.

JSH
08-31-2005, 07:52 AM
Felix, very true on the shooting of animals compared to little bitty groups. But I have seen several times a very well centered hit on the first bank. When targets were reset and the 2nd came around the 2nd hits were stacked on top of the first. Two bullet hits one splash. If my first hit is centered to my satisfaction that becomes a holding point for my second.

Mark, have been in several shoot offs with Chris my self. The only time I bested him was at Higginsville, he had to forefit as he had to leave early40x40+10 for both of us in UAS. I was probably lucky that day. A few months back there were several of us that ended up with a 40x40+9. My spotter actaully accused me of missing the number ten shoot off chicken so we could have a shoot off, imagine that. As far as I know this was all done with full length gas checks. I think I have a good load for my 30-30 UAS CB gun. Know to just get the same done with CB's.
I have not yet had the pleasure to be in a shoot off with Bob, yet. Have a new U XP 7BR that is shooting excellent now, full length gas check gun for now. I am going to give the 1/2 size a try with iron sights with this rig. Most everyone is using a scope.
OH Felix, the 1/2 size are actually more like 3/8 size. Rams are about the size of a small cat at 200M
Jeff

fourarmed
08-31-2005, 01:24 PM
Jeff, a late friend (Jim E.) had one of those silhouette 29s, and we messed with it quite a while using cast bullets. Unfortunately, I don't have his silhouette loading data, but he shot bullseye with it happily using the 429421 and 8 gr. of Unique. As I think you know, I finally got my DW shooting using SR-4756 powder at an estimated 1000 to 1100 fps. Might be worth a try.

I have also seen .44s spiral, presumably due to precession of the bullet, but I don't know if it is because of under- or over-stabilization. One time I was spotting for Warren, and it seemed to be very consistent from shot to shot, which explained why his windage was on at the turkeys but way off at the rams.

Also, about that adjustable front sight, I would use it this way: set one of the screws so that you are on the chickens with the rear sight two or three clicks up from bottom. Set another one so that your turkey setting is about right for the rams. (Smiths almost always run out elevation at 200.) It will drive you crazy trying to set all four of those front sight screws for the four animals.

Char-Gar
08-31-2005, 02:06 PM
Been to Ft. Stockton Texas in the salad days of metal critter shooting for some big matches there. Heck..I have even been in Mexico way back when they shot at live critters with rifles. That was before they went to metal critters. We are talking the 50's here.

JSH
08-31-2005, 06:34 PM
"I have also seen .44s spiral, presumably due to precession of the bullet, but I don't know if it is because of under- or over-stabilization. One time I was spotting for Warren, and it seemed to be very consistent from shot to shot, which explained why his windage was on at the turkeys but way off at the rams."

Bob, Warren put me on to the 300's with FLGC's. The 300's cut my groups in half at the time can't find the load I was using then. I have not shot revolver for several years, so I may as well play with the Smith before I give up with out getting started. I am going to see what I can come up with for a 300+ with a GC, tell Gary finally may have found a use for those GC's if he still has them.
"spiral" are you meaning the group was circular?

Jeff

D.Mack
09-01-2005, 12:35 AM
This spiraling is called, the corialis effect, all bullets do it. A right hand twist will spiral one way, and a left hand twist will spiral the other. If you want to check it, set targets at differt ranges from 25 to 200 yards, say every 20 yards, you will find that the groups will move slightly sideways and up and down in a corkscrew pattern. throw in your normal gravity bullet drop, and not all groups will hit exactly where you expect, but will be close enough to point of aim that most people blame it on the wind, the light, or the scope got bumped. It's most visable if the sun is directly behind you, with a spotting scope, and slow, big bullets. You will see a black dot going down range to the point of impact. I have seen it from 22 through 44 mag. and a few rifles. when sighting my target pistols I ignore it, not because it doesnt exist, but because my wobble is much bigger than the corialis's effect.

7br
09-01-2005, 07:08 AM
[QUOTE=JSHI am going to see what I can come up with for a 300+ with a GC, tell Gary finally may have found a use for those GC's if he still has them.
"spiral" are you meaning the group was circular?

Jeff[/QUOTE]

Ummm, would those be .44 Hornady gaschecks? I have some sperimenting I want to do with a .41 gascheck mould. If I could bum a 100 or so, I would be deeply indebted.

felix
09-01-2005, 08:45 AM
Yes, DMack, "this spiraling is called, the corialis effect, and all bullets do it" is a very correct statement. Also, a keyhole printed target is only a true keyhole affair when there is no cross wind. All bullets turn on their center of gravity and point into the wind and fly sideways. How much sideways depends on the bullet design, twist, and the wind velocity (speed and direction). ... felix

felix
09-01-2005, 08:51 AM
Mark, I will be happy to send you some 44 checks. Send me your addy, please. ... felix

Willbird
09-01-2005, 09:12 AM
Also bullets even in NO wind do not fly level and point forward, they fly with the nose raised a bit and dog tracking, and people swear that if you use too much twist for the bullet length they do not nose over to follow the downside of the parabola (I'm not sure about THAT one)

I have seen people do some fine shooting with Dan Wesson 44 magnumks with the 10" bbl, on the order of 6-8 inches consistantly at 200 yards, this is seated in a shooting chair or back rest with the gun on their knees.

I have shot 22 hornet in a 10" bbl into 4" at 200 yards that way...them 44 guys do not belive the numbers that 22 hornet with 53 hpbt is a better hole puncher at 200 yards than 44 magnum....lots less wind drift. Now as to terminal effects it is distinctly lacking in that dept. compared to 44 magnum.

PCB ballistics is a great free ballistic program, it will teach you a lot of things you didnt know for sure before, and it has been within 1/4 moa or one click on a leopold scope for me out to 600 yards with rifles.

Bill

44man
09-01-2005, 11:13 AM
When I was talking about the bullet corkscrewing, I mean't that you could see it rotating a circular path around the line of flight. This is different then the corialis effect all bullets have. This rotation was very fast and it is a very stunning thing to see. I only seen this with S&W's and it would go away with a heavier bullet.
Another fascinating thing I watched was from my friends 30-30 TC. The bullet would move sideways to the right until it looked like it would hit the next ram to the right, then come back over and hit the one he was aiming at. Of course, he could never hit a turkey unless he aimed way left or adjusted the windage way over. It looked like a curve ball.

7br
09-01-2005, 11:28 AM
The bullet would move sideways to the right until it looked like it would hit the next ram to the right, then come back over and hit the one he was aiming at. Of course, he could never hit a turkey unless he aimed way left or adjusted the windage way over. It looked like a curve ball.

Beautiful, now I have and excuse for missing turkeys. Bullet procession, corialis effect. No more "Loose nut" on the grip excuses for me

fourarmed
09-01-2005, 12:31 PM
What 44man is describing is what I also saw. A bullet in normal flight just goes up and comes back down as seen through a spotting scope situated slightly above and behind the revolver. The one I was spotting would go up and to the right and back down. At 200 m. it was only making about half of a complete spiral or a little more. I haven't spotted for that shooter since he switched to 300 grainers, so if that really cured the problem, I have to think that the lighter bullets were out of balance or possibly suffering from the mysterious "overstabilization" that I have heard loose talk about. Presumably either one would produce precession. It about has to be a combination of precession and air resistance. As for the Coriolis effect, that would produce a displacement in one direction only. I doubt that it would be observable over that short a range anyway.

StarMetal
09-01-2005, 12:40 PM
I'm not sure I'm sold on overstabilization. A gunrag writer made that statement last month also. I have an AR15 with the 1/7 twist rifling. I've found bullets from 40 grs to 55 grs to be everybit as accurate as the heavier ones I've shot. Could there be a comparison to a wheel or disc. For example tires on cars and motorcyles. They are spinning fast and having a forward movement at the same time. It doesn't seem to effect them as to whether they are spinning extremely fast or slow. Now if a wheel is turning too slow it starts to wobble and then falls over. To me the faster a bullet is spinning the harder it is for outside forces to make it deter it's course.

Joe

9.3X62AL
09-01-2005, 12:40 PM
7BR--

Precession and Coriolis Effect are the likely reasons for my poor showings at the Burrito Shoots--but I doubt the heathens I shoot with would accept such explanations. They are a largely unscientific lot.

A similar problem occurs while fly fishing, as the late Ed Zern pointed out many years ago in his column "Exit, Laughing" in "Field and Stream". Zern explained that as object approach the speed of light, time slows and finally stops at light-speed. Flies get cast (on topic now) at pretty high velocities on longer casts, and what occurs when a strike is missed is this--the lingering effects of the high speed delivery haven't worn off, and THE FLY ISN'T REALLY THERE YET.

Makes perfect sense.

felix
09-01-2005, 02:19 PM
Spinning at the speed of light is fine for a perfect boolit. Try that on a bicycle with couple of unbalanced tires going down mount everest without any brakes. ... felix

Scrounger
09-01-2005, 03:01 PM
Spinning at the speed of light is fine for a perfect boolit. Try that on a bicycle with couple of unbalanced tires going down mount everest without any brakes. ... felix

Felix, I was thinking about what you said and picturing the CarpetMan on his bike. Then I re-read your statement and noted "unbalanced tires". Oh well.

44man
09-01-2005, 07:37 PM
Starmetal, Even though the bullets were doing this, I got great accuracy from mine with the 240 gr bullet. I shot many 1/2" groups with my S&W's at 50 yd's. My friend would tell me that mine were going in circles at long range just like his were. (The only time we could see the bullets.) What we found was that at a given range, they would be either high, low, left or right, but would still group. Changing to a heavy bullet only got rid of the changes in the point of impacts but did not group any better or worse. The circles spinning around the line of flight would go away and the bullet would appear to run straight and true.
I never measured the twist of my S&W's to compare to the Ruger so I don't know if it was over or under stabilized. We have not seen the spirals with the Rugers from 240 to 330 gr bullets.
So, we are not talking about a change in accuracy, only a change in the points of impact as ranges change.

44man
09-01-2005, 07:40 PM
Deputy, now I have an excuse for not catching anything----THANK YOU!

JSH
09-02-2005, 08:08 AM
Felix
"this spiraling is called, the corialis effect, and all bullets do it"
So if I have this right.........in a nut shell. As long as it does the above the same everytime we still have a consistant POI? I have come to the conclusion there are not rights or wrongs in the ways of shooting. As long as you do IT the same way right or wrong every time? There are ways to make right and wrong better too.



overstabilization
I am looking at this from an RPM point of view. I have not fooled with any fast twist barrels that much as of yet. But to my way of thinking no matter what bullet you push down a fast twist barrel you are going to get to a point of striping the outside of the projectile off at high rotational speeds.

If the S&W has a faster twist that would explain some of the stuff I have read and seen on the heavy bullets flying some what better at longer distances.
And I thought this was going to be easy.....................lol.
Jeff

Willbird
09-02-2005, 09:21 AM
Once again, I reccomend "rifle accuracy facts" by Harold Vaughn, he explains a great deal of what goes on when a bullet travels down the barrel, and as it flies to the target.

One issue is that when a bullet is in the barrel it is rotating about it's physical center, more or less, when it leaves the barrel it switches over to rotating around it's center of mass...these two points or axis are closer together the better your bullets are.

One thing Harold saw that you can readily as well see is the differance in how muzzle blast moves water or high grass on differant shots, I have seen it myself once I knew to look for it..one shot the blast will be in a totally differant place than the next, even in accurate rifles positioned the same way for each shot......harold ran that down I belive to the gyrations the bullet makes finding it's own axis to rotate about.

The corkscrew flight path 44man and the others talk about is how ALL spin stabilised bullets fly to some degree.....this is why rifled arms are more accurate, if the bullet was not spinning on it's axis that corkscrew would become a veer.........and the bullet would fly wayyy off from where the last one went.

consistancy of velocity and indexing bullets and cartridge cases (by measuring wall thickness runout and marking the thick side) CAN improve accuracy because as 44man said it helps make the bullet hit the target at the same point in the corkscrew every time.

and a last note, over 30 years ago an older man told me he used to fire revolver tracers.....and that they would follow a path of flight exactly as posters have described seeing, and that the corkscrew was violent just off the muzzle and settled down the further the bullet flew............us listeners attributed it to the tracer element buring un-evenly. now I know that was not the case

Bill

felix
09-02-2005, 10:22 AM
Basically speaking, JSH, the same POI at different differences using only vertical hold-over/under is a matter of luck. A gun with a "perfect" crown has a better chance, especially is the barrel is dynamically tuned. Reason: It is difficult to place blame of where a fault is, like boolit design, powder speed, etc. ... felix

BOOM BOOM
09-05-2005, 12:35 AM
HI,
Back in my younger days when my daughters S&W 27 was mine w/ 147gr cast loads & a mid power 357 load I put 50 rounds into a 2"x2&1/2" hole. At 25yds. standing. I was never able to repeat it on paper. Most guns will out shoot the shooter. And it probibally does not matter who made it colt, s&w, or ruger.