30 carbine shotgun, starting load?

[preparehandbook]

A relative of mine has a strange little single barrel shotgun.

It is custom built, smoothbore, .30 caliber.

It is designed to fire .30 carbine shells loaded with small shot.

With it are also some cases of unknown origin that are the same dimension as 30 carbine, but they are a bit over 2 inches long.

I have been asked to help load up some light loads for pest control. There are plenty of fired casings, some over-powder and over-shot wads.

The problem is that my father in law shot off all of the live rounds before realizing he couldn't drive down to wal-mart and buy more.

The rifle is plenty stout and I know that Grandpa had used both black powder and smokeless loads. I am not looking to load it very hot, it's use has always been to shoot troublesome bunnies in the garden and snakes under the porch.

Anybody have any idea where to even start?

[pipehand]

It would be great if you could post a picture. Sometime in the '50's Remington marketed a thing called the .310 Remington Skeet for a single barrel break open shotgun. It was a rimfire cartridge, though. Never caught on.

It sounds like you need to get a 5/16" inch arch punch and get to making some wads. Are the cases boxer, or berdan primed? Is there a headstamp on the long ones? If the chamber accepts 2 inch long shells, how does the 30 Carbine headspace?

A search for 155 gauge shotgun loads turned up nothing.:)

[cpileri]

Any pics of markings on the gun, any fired cases. All would help.
C-

[preparehandbook]

I'd send pictures but the gun is currently 2 states away.

it is most definitely centerfire and the .30 carbine cases are a mix of used military surplus boxer primed stuff. Mosr have been used a couple times already.

I've already got hundreds of wads and a homemade wad cutter as well as a set of dies that fit the .30 carbine.

It headspaces on the case mouth.

A phone call has revealed that the longer cases are for a second barrel.

IIRC grandpa saw and shot a 9mm flobert garden gun when he served overseas and decided to make something like it using easily available .30 carbine brass. The gun is built on what was once a single barrel .410 before the barrel was bent in a hay-loading accident.

[cpileri]

Interesting. i wonder what brass could be used to make 30 carbine long?
For load data, i would look into light, or gallery, loads for the 30 carbine such that they are under 410bore pressure (if that was the gun's chambering originally); so any load under 12KPSI should be OK as long as its otherwise in good working order.
C-

p.s. unfortunately the lightest loads in any info i have are;
110gr jacketed bullet, 14.5gr IMR-4198 at 1495fps and 20.9KPSI
and
130gr cast, 4.9gr unique at 1260fps and 23.4KPSI; both WAY over safe for a 410.

[pipehand]

Just for s&g's, many years ago I made a couple of snake loads for a 32 S&W using #9 shot with 2 30 cal gaschecks as undershot/overshot wads. If it were me, I'd weigh out 90 grains of shot, and see if it will fit in the case. If it does, with some cardboard wads, I'd use a starting Cowboy Action load for 32 H&R mag for an idea of powder charges.

Sounds like you've got just the rig for pass shooting those hummingbirds.....

[cpileri]

here is something from Quickload, very low load density though:

Cartridge : .30 Carbine
Bullet : .308, 110, Hornady FMJ 3017
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.680 inch or 42.67 mm
Barrel Length : 8.5 inch or 215.9 mm
Powder : Hodgdon HP38

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill.--Charge---Vel.---Energy---Pmax-----Pmuz---Prop.Burn---B_Time
----------- Grains----fps-----ft.lbs----psi--------psi--------%---------ms
-33%------3.60-----989-----239---13702-----1958-----100.0------1.089

But a 110gr load is near 1/4 oz, if you can even get that much shot in a 30carbine case.
C-

[longusmc]

I loaded some snake loads for my S&W .38 Special using .357 Mag brass. I used a minimum charge of W231 a card wad followed by a lubed fiber wad (black powder type) card wad 105 grs of 7 1/2 shot another card wad and some light clay I found that doens't dryout and harden to seal them. By necking in the case mouth they chambered and with the light charge would easily extract. Out of the 4" barrel at 8' I averaged 8-10" patterns. More than enough to dispatch the rattlers in the high desert.

[preparehandbook]

Wow, lot;s of great info.

I was leaning towards a light blackpowder load behind some #8 shot

I think if I approach it much like a light .32 load I should be all right. The gun is very stout.

[preparehandbook]

I can't imagine what brass is essentially a long .30 carbine...

I wonder if it was rimmed and I just missed that detail, because then it could be..... hmmm. I don't know what brass that would be either.

[cpileri]

I suppose you could turn down the rim of a 223 bu 0.018 and either blow out the shoulder/neck or else cut it off and get a longer brass that would fit 30 carbine.
Otherwise, I dont know either.
Let us know how the load developemnt goes!!
C-

[NSP64]

I light loads of 231, bullseye, 2.0 gr under some shot cards and shot. cap with card/hotglue.

[cpileri]

Preparehandbook, any progress on the loads? I have a 9mm Flobert garden gun so this topic interests me. C-

[Reg]

Some thoughts from experimenting with shot loads for the 32 H&R Mag. They may apply here.
Using the standard case I couldn't get enough shot in the existing shell. I think it was Ed Harris that said to use plastic soda straws to make up a extended shot collar. Set it against the inner wad, figure about how long it should be to hold the desired shot then leave it a bit longer to allow for the top wad. Found that Testors plastic model airplane glue sorta held things together but I wouldn't trust carrying them in my pocket for long. There should be a better glue out there. Got the straws at the local 7-11. I think it was the red drink straws that were the correct dia., 5/16" .
The Slurpy straws were too big.
I tried using cut cardboard wads for for the bottom wad but found that a 30 cal ( Hornaday ) gas check worked better and quicker. Turn it so the skirt faces down.
To get the straw shot collar to stay in place, I sized the cases without the expanding rod, it made things just the right amount smaller. Insert the collar about half way then put a small ring of glue around the collar and while pushing it into place, twist it a bit to spread a very thin amount of the glue to the inside of the case. Wipe off the excess.
Sounds like a really neat little "rat getter" shotgun to play with. Number one son has been thinking up something about like that but using 30-30 cases blown full out.
Might be seeing more of these type of projects coming up in the future the way our world is going.
They use up little in the way of powder and other expendables yet still have use even if they present a challenge.
For a number of years I used a Stevens 44 Shot, making cases from 444 Marlin for doves. Had to wear full camo, find the right spot and hold shots to 15 yards or so. Generally took all day but did limit out most times. With the right shot charge your 30 carbine should have about the same shot charge and your velocities might be a bit higher.

:wink:

[pipehand]

Great idea about the straws. I'd imagine that they would hold the shot column together for a long ways in the OP's smoothbore.

[preparehandbook]

the straws sound a lot cheaper than teflon shot wraps.

[pipehand]

I don't think the teflon shot collar can be extended to give you more payload capacity. I think what Reg is putting forth would look more like CCI's 22 rimfire shot cartridges- the shot is encapsulated outside the case, increasing the weight of shot.

[Reg]

I don't think the teflon shot collar can be extended to give you more payload capacity. I think what Reg is putting forth would look more like CCI's 22 rimfire shot cartridges- the shot is encapsulated outside the case, increasing the weight of shot.


Yes, by using whatever length of straw you can increase the shot load quite a bit. In the case of this single shot, length would make no difference however I would weigh everything and not exceed the recommenced charge for the approximate weight of the bullet and in fact, actually hold the charge of powder down a bit. In my case, I couldn't exceed the cylinder length.

With the rifled, short barrel, I found the maximum usable range to be around 15 feet, very good for snake use. In the barrel that has been described for this 30 carbine, I would suspect with a 110 grain to 115 grain load of shot it could easily be usable up to 15 yards. I would start with this heavy load and play with various velocity's to get the best pattern.

I never found signs of fouling from these plastic tubes nor signs of the tubes themselves on the patten papers. Quite often tears from the gascheck lower wads were found on the pattern papers.

For more ideas along this line, do some research on revolver shot loads by Larry Gibson. I wound up using many of his ideas when working up my loads.
Reg

[WilliamDahl]

Sounds like you've got just the rig for pass shooting those hummingbirds.

WHY would someone want to shoot a hummingbird? You'd probably need a few dozen of them even for a light meal. :)

Hell, we've got dragonflies bigger than them here in Texas! They don't taste that good though (as anyone on a motorcycle without a windshield or face shield can tell you).

[WilliamDahl]

I have created .357-mag "shotshells" by putting a wad over the top of the powder, filling the case with shot, and then using a paraffin, beeswax, and Vaseline bullet lube smeared into the end of it to seal the end. The wax gets pushed down into the shot and kind of forms a wax/shot aggregate mixture. Even with just a couple of grains of Clays, the velocity is high enough that the wax basically vaporizes upon exit of the barrel. I've also tried solid wax bullets with this powder load and it ends up being nothing more than a wax powder spray leaving the barrel.

[pipehand]

WHY would someone want to shoot a hummingbird? You'd probably need a few dozen of them even for a light meal. :)

They're a nuisance, I tell ya. Wife has a dozen feeders around the car port, and I get tired of shoveling up 50 pounds of hummingbird poop a week. You only need five or so for a good seized meal for a grown man, You just have to serve them with a peck of potatoes.

The nice thing about hummingbirds, is they hover in place, so even lousy wingshots like me have a chance at bagging them. I can save on lead shot by loading the shells with coarse black pepper and kosher salt.

When I dress them out, I save the tongues. By the end of the season, I should have enough to serve with our traditional Christmas Unicorn roast.

[preparehandbook]

WHY would someone want to shoot a hummingbird? You'd probably need a few dozen of them even for a light meal. :)

Hell, we've got dragonflies bigger than them here in Texas! They don't taste that good though (as anyone on a motorcycle without a windshield or face shield can tell you).

Hummingbirds are not typically shot for food, but for defense.

Hummingbirds seem innocent, and they are... so long as they prey only on flowers. A hummingbird who has acquired a taste for flesh, or worse, a sense of vengeance.... that is a tiny vicious killing machine.

Those poor fools who have attempted to down an enraged hummingbird with a slow-to-swing .410 (or worse yet a 12 gauge) are usually found dead where they stood, their bodies riddled with tiny holes and sucked completely dry.

[Chev. William]

They're a nuisance, I tell ya. Wife has a dozen feeders around the car port, and I get tired of shoveling up 50 pounds of hummingbird poop a week. You only need five or so for a good seized meal for a grown man, You just have to serve them with a peck of potatoes.

The nice thing about hummingbirds, is they hover in place, so even lousy wingshots like me have a chance at bagging them. I can save on lead shot by loading the shells with coarse black pepper and kosher salt.

When I dress them out, I save the tongues. By the end of the season, I should have enough to serve with our traditional Christmas Unicorn roast.

Oh "Lordy", I started Chorling about a third into reading this post and by the end I was Laughing.
Thank you for the Smiles.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Tdart]

I think Trailboss would be a great option. With it you could calculate your load based on however much empty space you have under the shot.

[cpileri]

preparehandbook,
Did this load development ever come to anything?
C-

[Janoosh]

Instead of 30 carbine, couldn't you use 762 Nagant. I've seen those shells and they look ideal. I didn't know Hummingbirds were the Vampire of the Avian world. I love this sight...something new learnd every day. Did you post the recipe for Unicorn in the cooking section???? I seem to have missed it. Now .... Spotted Owl...That....I have a recipe for...comes out tasting just like chicken!

[preparehandbook]

I am going to be doing this and all my .22 lr reloading this winter.

[cpileri]

looking foward to BOTH results, 22 and 30.
C-

[preparehandbook]

Me too :)

[jimb16]

I was working on recipes for California Condor here in Ohio, but we seem to have run out of birds before I got the taste down to anything better than roast carp!

[preparehandbook]

in recipes calling for california condor, you can substitute an equal weight of spotted owl or bald eagle.