Very dissapointed with S&W 617

[happy7]

To start at the beginning, a long time ago, I purchased an H&R 9 shot top break 22 more bacause I liked the fact that it was a top break, than that it was a quality revolver. I have used it quite a bit and it is one of the guns my kids grew up learning to shoot on. However, it was just never really that accurate. I decided recently that I wanted a really accurate 22 revolver so I did my research and on the web people were saying how accurate the 617 is. So I bought one and took it to my range to shoot at 20 yards. With three different types of ammo, it grouped about 2.5 inches from the rest, and some groups larger. The H&R shoots better. In fact the other new gun I was trying that day is a Springfield XDS. It is a diminuative 45 acp. It shot significantly better than the 617.

Everyone can turn out a lemon, so I thought that if I gave S&W a call, they could either get me a gun that shoots better, or at the least tell me which ammunition it likes. When I got them on the phone, they informed me that the spec on the 617 is 2" at 25 yards. In fact I talked to two people, because the first was less than helpful. Frankly, I find it astounding that S&W does not spec their flagship 22 revolver better than that. As the man at S&W said, it is not that they can't, they just don't care to.

Am I wrong to think that 2 inches at 25 yards is unacceptable for a high end 22 revolver? The gentleman at S&W said that the 617 was made as a practice substitute for the 686 and therefore it's primary purpose is not accuracy but fit and finish to resemble the 686. I asked what revolver then do they make that would be more accurate. He didn't think they make a more accurate one. He couldn't even recommend a type of ammo for it.

Right now, I am just really dissapointed. 617s are not cheap, and the only reason I bought one was because I wanted an accurate revolver. I could send it back, but he told me if they can get it to shoot a group under two inches they are just going to send it back to me. If they use Eley match, maybe it will. Shipping a handgun is not cheap. Thing is, I am really wanting for it to group no more than an inch.

Can anyone recommend a really accurate 22 revolver?

[imashooter2]

What ammunition did you use? My 617 will shoot well under what you are getting with CCI SV. It will shoot well over what you are getting with Remington Golden Bullet.

FWIW, the S&W flagship .22 is the model 41.

[snowwolfe]

What ammo did you use? How long is the barrel on your 617? Have you ever had someone else shoot it to see if the results were different? Do you have access to a machine rest? Try putting a optic on it and see what you end up with.

Try shooting groups using the same chamber on the cylinder to see if anything is amiss.

Finally, 1 inch group at 20-25 yards with a handgun is damn tuff to do with iron sights.

[BRobertson]

I would find an older M-17, K-22.

All of mine have always been very accurate, and I am demanding when it comes to accuracy in a .22 handgun!!

I use them to hunt ptarmigan, prefer to shoot their heads off!!

Bob

[km101]

I would also recommend and older model Smith, such as a 17, 18, or K-22. I have a S&W model 18-3, blue, 4" that will shoot 1" groups from a rest at 25 yds. I have some old Western Xpert ,22lr standard velocity ammo that it likes and I save it to shoot in this gun. Gun was made about 1975 and is a good example of the craftsmanship that you found in S&W guns in those days.

My eyes wont allow me to shoot those groups with open sights any more, but the gun has proven many times that it can do it if the shooter can. I refuse to mount a scope on it, so I will just have to enjoy plinking.

You might try replacing the springs with a Wolff spring kit to improve the trigger pull, or send it to a good gunsmith for a trigger job. Also have him check lockup and cylinder alignment to ensure that there is no "shaving" of the slug. A good 'smith can cure many small flaws that might not be obvious, and will improve accuracy.

And run a few hundred rounds through it. Sometimes they just need to be "broken in." Good luck!

[NSB]

Smith and Wesson gives out the 2" spec to cover their butt. The gun will shoot much better than that. The real question is this: what ammo are you using, how are you supporting the gun, and how good a shooter are you? Most shooters can't shoot under 1.5" at 25yds with any handgun. I know, I shot silhouette for years as a top competitor in International Class. With iron sights it's a good shooter and a good gun shooting consistent 1.5" groups with a revolver of any make. I've owned guns that did better but not very many. S&W simply can't deal with telling everyone the gun will shoot better than 2" simply because everyone would want to send back their "defective" gun to get repaired. I'd suggest you get some really good std. velocity target ammo (CCI is pretty decent and more available than most ammo right now) and figure out how to shoot it off a rest (there is definately a proper technique to use) and have someone of known ability give it a try. Good luck, I think the gun is probably OK, it just needs to be properly evaluated.

[MtGun44]

I have a Mod 17 that is a 2"-3" gun with ANYTHING, and I can verify it is the gun by shooting
a 1" or smaller group right beside it any time with one of my Ruger autos. Pretty disgusting,
actually. I have several S&W .38 and .357s that will best it any time.

Bill

[happy7]

Well, I can shoot. I have other guns to prove that I am not the problem. But I agree. Most shooters are not all that capable with a handgun.

Well, this gives me a plan. Thanks for all the tips. I will get all the differnt types of ammo I can, and see if there is something it likes. Otherwise I will put it on the block and probably try for an older one.

[HATCH]

My dad has a 6 inch model 617. He can make them all touch at 10 yards.
I have a K-22 6 inch. I can almost put them in the same hole at 10 yards if my sugar is right and I haven't had too much Mt Dew to drink.

Try CCI mini-mags.
I shoot just cheapo 333 Winchester ($13 a box back in the day lol)

[BRobertson]

Well, I can shoot. I have other guns to prove that I am not the problem. But I agree. Most shooters are not all that capable with a handgun.

Well, this gives me a plan. Thanks for all the tips. I will get all the differnt types of ammo I can, and see if there is something it likes. Otherwise I will put it on the block and probably try for an older one.

I have had the best all around luck, between all sorts of different guns and .22 ammo, with the Federal 525 rd bulk packs.
Mine are all from 10 years or so back, when a person could still walk in and buy .22 ammo!!

Bob

[376Steyr]

I keep a cigar box full of partial boxes of .22 ammo just for load testing. Good news is I can generally find a brand the test gun likes. Bad news is the best performing ammo is sometimes some long discontinued model. Anybody got a brick of Winchester yellow box, red X, HP's they want to part with?

Before you hit the range again, check the forcing cone for excessive leading. I once fed my S&W Kit Gun some ammo it REALLY didn't like. Groups instantly went from about 1 1/2" @ 25 yds to patterns. When I cleaned it, out popped a solid lead doughnut that probably weighed 40 grs.

[BruceB]

Shooting skill....???

Reckon I'm just an ol' f--t , but MY criterion for handgun skill, when it comes to pure accuracy, is the standard NRA slow-fire FIFTY-YARD target, set out there at (no surprise) fifty yards.

When a shooter can consistently shoot scores of 90-plus ONE-HANDED on that target, I start thinking he knows something. 95-plus scores, and we KNOW he can handle the handgun.

The ten-ring measures 3.39 inches on that target, and it is a serious accomplishment to score in the 90s consistently. The ten-round strings absolutely demand smooth and knowledgeable performance. Three- and five-round groups are meaningless in this endeavor; it's how well the TEN rounds group that matters.

[EOD3]

I have a 617 six shot, not the aluminum cylinder ***, that shoots tiny little groups with either Federal or Winchester long-rifle ammunition. It sounds like your revolver has a problem, perhaps with the timing or the forcing cone.

I think your problem with the S&W support is that you found an IDIOT that thinks the 617 is a practice gun for the 686.

[dubber123]

The Wolf match ammo isn't too expensive, and shot much smaller groups from my custom shop mod. 17. It will shoot under 1" at 25 with that, well over double that with any of the common HV stuff. I too have also had good luck with CCI's standard velocity ammo from my model 34's. Unless you just prefer a revolver, a Ruger auto will likely out shoot even a good revolver.

[GP100man]

As my eyes are Fifty & my hands are Eighty(wrench turner 36yrs.) I`m very happy with this , standing no support , 25 measured yds.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0454.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_0454.jpg.html)

Anyways if ya want a squrriel revolver may I recommend a Ruger Single Six mine is (or used to be with younger eyes) scary accurate with CCI mini mags & better than that with 22WMR CCI ammo.

My Single Six is an older 6 holer & blue steel & many a wood rat , snake, coon ,possum, tree rat, fox & 1 Bob Cat.
has been taken with it .

Before giving up on it or bashing S&W try 2 things polish the throats smooth & try as many different ammos as ya can find!

GP

[MT Gianni]

I bought a High Standard revolver a couple of years ago. It is a 9 shot and always pulled one shot out of the group. I marked the cylinders and traced it to one chamber. I would start there and see what is repeatable, then find out what part is out of specs.

[Forrest r]

Check the cylinders, they probably need opened up & barnished. Pretty much a standard practice to do on the new 617's.

The 617's should do around an 1" @25yds with plain old federal bulk from walmart.

Something to think about:
S&W used to test every rimfire pistol & the standards they held were 1" @50yds or the pistol never left the building. They quit doing that in 1957.

[Dale53]

Happy7;
I believe that you can shoot and I also believe that it is quite possible that you have an ammo problem, not a gun problem. I have many years experience with revolvers and auto pistols. I also have access to a Ransom Rest with LOTS of inserts.

Get as many different brands and lots of ammo you can. .22's (both rifles AND pistols are notoriously ammo sensitive). If you don't have access to a Ransom Rest and the knowledge how to use it, put a good scope or Red Dot Sight on your pistol. You can probably beat the Ransom Rest off sandbags after you learn how to use the bags with a revolver (a bit of a learning curve). Remove as much of the sighting error that you can with optics - that's the point. Check the revolver, not the shooter.

With the ammo shortage this is probably the worst time you can imagine for trying different brands of ammo. Hopefully, that will change in a month or two (I keep hoping). You will NOT believe how much difference there is shooting different ammo in your revolver. To further confound you, your buddies seemingly identical revolver (or pistol or rifle) will almost certainly prefer something different than your choice:shock: I learned to live with it and you can too. When you find a brand and lot of ammo that works well, buy a LOT of it.

One of the best all round ammo that works in a multitude of different platforms was the lowly CCI Blazer .22 Rimfire. It was dirty stuff, but shot well in a variety of platforms. You just never know what works. My favorite ammo for REAL accuracy is Eley 10X (gold almost costs less these days:groner:).

Then, when you find what works for you, let us know, so we all can benefit from your experience.

Now, you know why Smith doesn't want to state a standard below an inch.

A good .22 revolver should group below an inch at 25 yards (WITH THE RIGHT AMMO that IT likes).

FWIW
Dale53

[cowboy]

Howdy- I have a 617, have tried various different makes of ammo in it; no, it will NOT equal the results I get with my model 41, circa 1974. Have a Ruger Super Single Six ( stainless, you know, comes with a .22 LR and .22 WMR cylinders ) that flat would not group- I mean saucer size groups at 15 yards, "keyholes" with .22 magnum. Sent it to Gary Reeder in Flagstaff to be rebarreled and have the slop taken out of the cylinder lock up. Regular shooting machine, now!
If you really need top notch accuracy from a .22 revolver, you might go that way, or spend LOTS of money on the .22 Freedom Arms makes for shooting at animal shaped steel plates. Fine arm, nothing else like it right out of the box.

[GaryN]

I bought a M17 about 20 years ago. I was looking for an accurate revolver. I never could get it to shoot as good as my rugers. So I sold it.

[357Ruger]

To start at the beginning, a long time ago, I purchased an H&R 9 shot top break 22 more bacause I liked the fact that it was a top break, than that it was a quality revolver. I have used it quite a bit and it is one of the guns my kids grew up learning to shoot on. However, it was just never really that accurate. I decided recently that I wanted a really accurate 22 revolver so I did my research and on the web people were saying how accurate the 617 is. So I bought one and took it to my range to shoot at 20 yards. With three different types of ammo, it grouped about 2.5 inches from the rest, and some groups larger. The H&R shoots better. In fact the other new gun I was trying that day is a Springfield XDS. It is a diminuative 45 acp. It shot significantly better than the 617.

Everyone can turn out a lemon, so I thought that if I gave S&W a call, they could either get me a gun that shoots better, or at the least tell me which ammunition it likes. When I got them on the phone, they informed me that the spec on the 617 is 2" at 25 yards. In fact I talked to two people, because the first was less than helpful. Frankly, I find it astounding that S&W does not spec their flagship 22 revolver better than that. As the man at S&W said, it is not that they can't, they just don't care to.

Am I wrong to think that 2 inches at 25 yards is unacceptable for a high end 22 revolver? The gentleman at S&W said that the 617 was made as a practice substitute for the 686 and therefore it's primary purpose is not accuracy but fit and finish to resemble the 686. I asked what revolver then do they make that would be more accurate. He didn't think they make a more accurate one. He couldn't even recommend a type of ammo for it.

Right now, I am just really dissapointed. 617s are not cheap, and the only reason I bought one was because I wanted an accurate revolver. I could send it back, but he told me if they can get it to shoot a group under two inches they are just going to send it back to me. If they use Eley match, maybe it will. Shipping a handgun is not cheap. Thing is, I am really wanting for it to group no more than an inch.

Can anyone recommend a really accurate 22 revolver?


My original 617 will shot into 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards but it must be fed target type rounds or subsonic. It does not like most high velocity rounds and they lead up the forcing cone quite quickly.

I was showing a friend of mine how well it shot and off a rest at 25yards with a scope mounted I shot 6 groups of 6 rounds and you could cover each with a dime easily. That was just to show it will consistently group well.

I recently sent a 10 shot 617 back that shot poorly and S&W repaired it to my satisfaction. It won't quite match my first 617 for groups but shoots very well now.

So I recommend you try target or subsonic ammo after cleaning you barrel especially the forcing cone area. If it still shoots poorly have S&W send you a pick up tag and send it back for repair due to poor accuracy. Good luck and I hope this works for you.

[roysha]

My 617 with 8 3/8" full lug barrel will shoot 1" +/-, all day long with the old WIN Pistol Match ammo I feed it. For regular shooting I use Wildcat I bought some years ago and it will normally shoot
1 1/2", obviously from the bench. Let me qualify that a bit by saying my eyes are not quite what they use to be so I doubt I could do it with the iron sights now, but the gun is still capable.

Occasionally even S&W makes a not so accurate gun. About 20 years ago a group of us would meet regularly on Saturday afternoons and shoot all sorts of handguns at all sorts of targets. One fellow brought up a brand new, in the box, S&W 18 (in those days that was the only way to get a 4" barreled 17). None of us were world class shooters but if a gun was capable of 1" at 25 yards accuracy we could consistently achieve that from the bench.

I would dare say between the 5 of us we had 25-30 different brands and quality levels of 22LR ammo, from Rem Mohawk to Ely Tenex.

However, this 18 would not shoot better than 3" with the ANY ammo and 4 1/2"-6" groups were often shot. We even tried some Longs and a couple of brands of Shorts both of which shot to who knows where. About half never even hit the paper.

It was sent back to S&W and when it came back it shot no better than before. Pitched a bitch to S&W and was basically told we were incapable of shooting any better. If I wasn't such a diehard S&W fan I would have told them to kiss my posterior but instead it ended up on consignment at a pawn shop since we didn't want to cause any grief on any of our favored gunshops.

Sometimes **** happens!

[ironhead7544]

My 617 with 8 3/8" full lug barrel will shoot 1" +/-, all day long with the old WIN Pistol Match ammo I feed it. For regular shooting I use Wildcat I bought some years ago and it will normally shoot
1 1/2", obviously from the bench. Let me qualify that a bit by saying my eyes are not quite what they use to be so I doubt I could do it with the iron sights now, but the gun is still capable.

Occasionally even S&W makes a not so accurate gun. About 20 years ago a group of us would meet regularly on Saturday afternoons and shoot all sorts of handguns at all sorts of targets. One fellow brought up a brand new, in the box, S&W 18 (in those days that was the only way to get a 4" barreled 17). None of us were world class shooters but if a gun was capable of 1" at 25 yards accuracy we could consistently achieve that from the bench.

I would dare say between the 5 of us we had 25-30 different brands and quality levels of 22LR ammo, from Rem Mohawk to Ely Tenex.

However, this 18 would not shoot better than 3" with the ANY ammo and 4 1/2"-6" groups were often shot. We even tried some Longs and a couple of brands of Shorts both of which shot to who knows where. About half never even hit the paper.

It was sent back to S&W and when it came back it shot no better than before. Pitched a bitch to S&W and was basically told we were incapable of shooting any better. If I wasn't such a diehard S&W fan I would have told them to kiss my posterior but instead it ended up on consignment at a pawn shop since we didn't want to cause any grief on any of our favored gunshops.

Sometimes **** happens!

I also had a M18 that wouldnt shoot. Tried about everything. Also had some Remington Viper ammo that didnt work in my other 22lrs.

So I tried the Viper in the M18. Shot consistent 3/8 inch groups at 25 yards off a rest. Go figure.

My S&W M22S easily shoots into 1 inch at 25 yards with most ammo.

[happy7]

I had a chance to shoot the gun again yesterday. I took another closer look at the bore and decided to try some bore paste on it to see if that would help. I polished it pretty good with that. I don't know if that helped, or just the change in ammo. It turned out like some here suggested. It did like the slower ammo better. The hyper stuf shot poorly, but the subsonic and other normal velocity better quality ammo shot pretty good. Even some target quality shorts shot good. Other than the odd flyer, which I will still have to look into, groups with the slower stuff were about an inch. With the sweat getting in my eyes I think that is probably about as good as i could do yesterday, but the gun may do better with some of it. So I am encouraged.

[Outpost75]

Back in the days when I shot bullseye pistol, I had a chance to shoot a dozen S&W K22s off a Ransom rest with match ammo, and the very best would do only 1-1/2" for 10-shot groups at 25 yards, this with Eley Black or selected lots of Winchester Mk4 white box. The average gun was 2".

Any half worn out High Standard or Colt Woodsman Match Target you can still see rifling in will beat any. 22 revolver ever made. With Eley Standard or Club, not the best, but good practice ammo, a good High Standard or Ruger Mk.3 will shoot inch ten-shot groups at 25 yards.

If you want an accurate .22 revolver the Ruger Single Six is the best buy and with good ammo will shoot as well as a Mk3.

The. 32H&R Mag. single six with good ammo is as accurate as the. 22.

The convertible single six with. 22LR cylinder is less accurate than the dedicated. 22LR version.

[dvnv]

I am thinking a Freedom Arms 97 would out shoot other .22 revolvers. dvnv

[Outpost75]

I am thinking a Freedom Arms 97 would out shoot other .22 revolvers. dvnv

For as much money as they want for a new one of those you can get a used High Standard Victor or S&W41 which WILL shoot!

[dvnv]

For as much money as they want for a new one of those you can get a used High Standard Victor or S&W41 which WILL shoot!

and will be faster to load-unload, but the OP wanted an accurate revolver.

[Outpost75]

The Freedom Arms is probably a delight to behold, if in your affordable price range, but for a currently produced model, the Ruger Single Six in the dedicated. 22 LR version, NOT the convertible one with WMR cylinder, would be my recommendation.

[Petrol & Powder]

Any half worn out High Standard or Colt Woodsman Match Target you can still see rifling in will beat any. 22 revolver ever made. With Eley Standard or Club, not the best, but good practice ammo, a good High Standard or Ruger Mk.3 will shoot inch ten-shot groups at 25 yards.

If you want an accurate .22 revolver the Ruger Single Six is the best buy and with good ammo will shoot as well as a Mk3.

The. 32H&R Mag. single six with good ammo is as accurate as the. 22.



Outpost75 you speak the truth. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to get a .22 revolver to shoot well. I've seen some outstanding .22 rimfire revolvers but every good one I've run across, I've seen a dozen more bad ones.
Rimfire ammunition has a lot of variables, rim thickness being one of the critical factors. All .22 rimfire guns are sensitive to ammunition and .22 revolvers are no exception. Toss in 6 separate chambers (with 6 throats), a forcing cone, yoke, ratchet and a bunch of other revolver stuff and you begin to understand why it's a rare alignment of the planets when a .22 revolver shoots well. It's not impossible to get one that's right but it does require a LOT of things to ALL be perfect. When people ask about accurate .22 handguns my first advice is always a Ruger MkII. The semi-auto .22 pistols just seem to have less variables to deal with and often shoot very well right out of the box.

[9.3X62AL]

I lucked into a very accurate Model 617 (steel cylinder/6-shot) some years back, and IT STAYS. That critter can flat SHOOT. Ammo type and make can make a difference, so don't throw in the towel too soon on a 22 LR of any configuration until giving it a good test drive with a number of ammo options. Truth to tell, there is a lot of crummy 22 LR ammo out there on sale these days. Some of the bulk-box stuff by a few makers has audible report variances that I've verified with a chronograph--on the order of 150-200 FPS ES.

CCI ammo seems to have their kit in one bag. Even their bargain Blazer ammo is consistent in performance, and runs well in a couple of my balky Steak and Lobster Diet Debutante 22 firearms. Little else will function in either of those Prom Queens. One of them--a Winchester 290 self-loader--in past years ran like water with about any ammo you bought at the shop or hardware store. This was the late 1960s and into the 70s, and the rifle has had good care and not a great deal of firing. Now--it's CCI, or you have a bolt action sequence. Ammo quality has taken a nose-dive in some cases, so don't quit before running that firearm a good distance and with a variety of fodder.

[Joni Lynn]

My first S&W 17 shot worse every time it went out to the range. It didn't make a difference if it was clean, dirty, whatever. I sent it back to S&W with targets noting distance and ammo used and they replaced the trigger and sent it back. It made four trips back to the mother ship before they decided to humor me and replace it. The replacement had so much play in the cylinder it would misfire as often as not. After several trips back they fixed that also but now it has a very large barrel/cylinder gap. It's a keeper though.
Good luck on finding one that is consistently accurate.

[Clay M]

My 617 is certainly not a tack driver.For some odd reason it does shoot the Rem Golden Bullets better than the Federal bulk pack.It doesn't like the Federals at all.I have a late 70's K-17 that shoots better.

[9.3X62AL]

Outpost 75......any idea why the single-caliber Single-Sixes shoot better than the swap-cylinder versions? Is it a fitting matter, where having to make two cylinders line up properly induces error and/or compromise? This is good to know, BTW.

[Clay M]

My son gave me a brick of Fiocchi subsonic .22LR for my birthday today.
So far it has shot the best in my 617.One inch groups at twenty yards.The guns do appear too be picky eaters.

[9.3X62AL]

One inch at 20 yards would be quite satisfying for me. As pointed out above, autoloaders are capable of better accuracy than their rollerpistole counterparts. That doesn't excuse sloppy accuracy, though--there are enough revolver/ammo combinations out there that CAN and DO shoot well to give the lie to factory claims of 4" dispersion at 25 yards--if such nonsense is conjured up in some fashion.

[Clay M]

It is always good to try as much different ammo as possible in any .22LR
I have had very good luck overall with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.Usually if a gun won't shoot it, something is wrong. Too bad that it is hard under our present conditions to have very many choices. When I find something that really shoots well in a particular gun, I usually set it back and keep it for hunting.