Help understanding differences in damascus steels

[x101airborne]

Hi guys.
Sorry for the silly question, but I know little about knife steels and just recently discovered the Rockwell scale.
I see these Damascus knives made out of Pakistan and india and am wondering....
Is it just that no one knows what kind of steel they are made of?
The handles look so pretty on the internet, I just cant believe they would put 50 bucks worth of material and work on a .50 cent blade.
BUUUTTT.......
I have been wrong before. That was in 1977 when I said I was gonna get that sucker that spanked my butt to get me to breathe. He died before I turned 5. But I aint giving up hope. Im kidding. Just a joke.
Anyhow.. how do I know if I purchase a knife from even somewhere else, am I getting a good steel? (Steel, not steal or steele). Is there anything that can give me a hint looking at pictures? Just trying to learn before I spend any hard money.
Thanks yall.

[fouronesix]

There are a few metal/blade smiths hanging around the forum, so one's likely to take a stab at the question.

I have studied the historical side of this and have a few old representative blades from various parts of the world. The current market is literally flooded with all manner of modern blades from India, Pakistan and China to name just three. Good chance that most of the "Damascus" blades you see around are simply mass produced laminated steels of different alloys that show the layered pattern. Almost impossible to tell what each would be and could run A-Z. Quality will run from poor to very good. A real carp shoot.

Actually, the real Damascus steel was produced in the general area around Damascus- thus the name. It was traded to blade makers (Viking era) as far away as Scandinavia. The similar Wootz types came from India. If you look closely at an original ingot of either you will not see any layering. The layering is simply a product of the forging and folding process- no matter the origin of the steels or alloys. Currently, what is called "Damascus" is not Damascus or Wootz at all but merely a layering/folding of two or more different types of steel or iron of various alloys- as mentioned above.

[ggb3]

Hello,
The wife and I were in Tennessee on New Years at Gatlinburg. I had never been, we went to the flea market. I found pure gold in a knife vendor. The beautiful knives of all types, fixed blades, folders, antlered handles, everything and priced well below what you would expect. Well, I looked over them knives, talked to the fellow, went back, thought it over, went back again.... the vender was selling me on the "Damascus steel" knives. Said this was his last batch at this price, etc., etc.

The words "if it is too good to be true" kept coming back into my head as I thought about buying half a dozen of these treasures. Well, I decided to wait and look into it. So, we get back to the condo and I take to googling. I found out that the knifes, and I can no longer remember the supposed manufacturer, however, sounded like a great ole company, the "Damascus steel", well, it is an acid etching and would wear off as you sharpen or otherwise clean off and wear the blade. The "good guy" vendor even told me that he had been a vendor for 20 years and he knew good knives. So, with that, I figured he was lying through his teeth or, is an idiot. I suspected lying through his teeth. I'm just glad I didn't buy them and feel like I was taken.

The steel could even be a lesser quality, however, the "Damascus steel" not even being real, just a finish, I could not go for that at all. This is just what I found when I googled that particular knife manufacturer. Great sounding name, made in China though and, a fake layering to boot. Buyer beware. Just my learning experience, YMMV of course.

[knifemaker]

Damascus steel will consist of two or more different steels that are forged and folded many times together. Good dasmascus steel will consist of a high carbon steel such as 1095 as one of the steels and a low carbon steel such as 15N20 to give the contrasting pattern after being etched with a mild acid.
The better grades of Damascus will be harden to around 57-58RC, this is where the high carbon steel comes into play to obtain that hardness for edge holding in the field.
Most of the cheap damascus you see being offered for sale from China, middle East, can have just about any scrap steel in the make up and will be soft and not hold a very good edge. If the price is cheap, you can bet your last dollar the damascus steel is also cheap.
A good quality knife maker will tell you what steel is used in the blade and will also state the hardness to insure your blade will hold it's edge while cutting.
There is alot of imported so called "handmade custom damascus knives" being advertised for sale today that are made in some middle east village using any steel they can get their hands on and most will be 55rc or softer due to using low carbon steels. As usual most guys will fall for the cheap price and buy this so called "custom hand made knife" and think he is getting a bargain. The only one who got the bargain was the cheap knife dealer who payed that middle east villager 15 bucks for his custom hand made knife and sold it for 60 bucks to a un-informed buyer. Even the villager came out ahead as the 15 bucks he got is like 400 bucks to us in the U.S.

[x101airborne]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the heads up.
I did buy a Svord folder, a Boker folder and a Cold Steel Recon Tanto II. Figured for now I will stay with reputable names.

[x101airborne]

Too bad, though. I really like some of the designs and as I said, some of the handles are just really gorgeous. I tell ya, if there was a way to know that the steel would be of good quality I would like to have a couple. But even at 20.00 a knife I am not one to throw good money away on bad rhetoric.

[KCSO]

Short form... Real Damascus was a mix of iron and steel folded and welded together and the pattern came out when you etched the blade and the different metals etched at a different rate. At one time twist welded barrels were rated as stronger than lap welded because the folding and welding worked the impurities out of the metal. A damascus blade could be both sharp and tough. Modern Damascus depends on the maker ranging from cable damascus to real damascus froged and folded and welded from iron and steel and usually with a fine pattern. You get what you pay for and the cheap Parker Cutlery type is no better in blade quality than any other cheap blade. My buddy went to Bill Moran and learned to do real damascus and his blades alone cost me $100.00 each rough ground and are worth every penny. Unless you want something just for looks don't buy the cheap blades they won't stand up to hard use and will require constant resharpening.

[gbrown]

Short form... Real Damascus was a mix of iron and steel folded and welded together and the pattern came out when you etched the blade and the different metals etched at a different rate. At one time twist welded barrels were rated as stronger than lap welded because the folding and welding worked the impurities out of the metal. A damascus blade could be both sharp and tough. Modern Damascus depends on the maker ranging from cable damascus to real damascus froged and folded and welded from iron and steel and usually with a fine pattern. You get what you pay for and the cheap Parker Cutlery type is no better in blade quality than any other cheap blade. My buddy went to Bill Moran and learned to do real damascus and his blades alone cost me $100.00 each rough ground and are worth every penny. Unless you want something just for looks don't buy the cheap blades they won't stand up to hard use and will require constant resharpening.

I'm dumb as a brick about this subject matter. Have heard several people talk about "Alabama Damascus." Are their products made in the U.S.? Know nothing other than that they sell damascus.

[fouronesix]

For currently produced pattern welded blades, the only way to be sure of quality is to know or be sure of the source and maker. There is a large disconnect in the usage of the term "Damascus". The common usage today usually has nothing to do with Damascus steel. Currently it is used generically to describe any pattern welded steel- where the source materials can be anything. In reality the current homogeneously smelted, non pattern welded, high quality steels are generally superior to those of the past including the true Damascus and Wootz steels.

To look at pics or find out about it, just do a google search for Damascus or Wootz steel. You'll note true Damascus/Wootz steel is usually grey in color, it is usually blotchy in appearance, sometimes shows pattern in the structure (tightly packed, squiggly figure) and sometimes has no visible figure at all.
link to some images http://www.google.com/search?q=wootz+steel&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=p_wUUtPxF8i-2gWo3oDYCw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1057&bih=719

[MtGun44]

Real OLD damascus blades were superior FOR THAT TIME, but are not at all superior
to our best non-laminated steels. If you like the look of a knife, and it is inexpensive,
buy it. In my experience, only the very worst 10% of knives are made of stuff that
is so bad as to be of little of no use. Will a $35 blade from a 3rd world country
be any good? Impossible to tell. If the maker used an old truck spring, it might
be a heck of a good knife if he got the heat treat anywhere near close to right. Even
the very ordinary modern steels today are better than a king could have in
1300-1600.

Laminated (modern steels, pattern welded in layers by folding) knives CAN be quite
good, but many use very ordinary steels so they are mostly for looks. Again - if you LIKE
the look and it is inexpensive - give it a try, it will always be pretty to your eye, and it
might be a good tool, too.

Bill

[DougGuy]

+1 Bill..

(A little O/T so...)

I picked up a plain looking nice old butcher knife at a Lynchburg, VA flea market. It had been rained on, and instead of rusting, it was just a dark gray color. That's what caught my eye. I gave the seller $5 for the knife and took it home. Tried to sharpen it with a pull-thru tungsten carbide sharpener, O hell no it weren't having NO part of that! It almost ripped the jaws out of the sharpener! It took a super keen edge with a Lansky stone kit, and retained that edge through several seasons of butchering deer which is more than I can say for some very expensive custom made 440C knives I have.

A little research on the subject was in order.. The knife was made by Frontier Forge, in Japan, in the early 60s when the boom to import many things Japan made was in full swing. Like the current China invasion, but with a healthy dose of quality if you can imagine that. Later Frontier Forge knives and sets were Taiwan made.

In Japan, knife and sword making had been a precision art for hundreds and hundreds of years. Their knowledge of knifemaking metals is second to none even today. These knives are made basically from what we would now call "old world" steel and are still a very good and very overlooked value in a knife. In post-WWII Japan, the whole sword industry was shut down by the articles of surrender, and so these timely crafts were turned to making cutlery that was imported here in vast quantities.

They may not have the fancy handles or damascus patterned blades, but as far as the steel goes? Oh my.. Try to wreck one if you can. You will need a bench grinder or a torch at the very minimum.

[knifemaker]

gBrown; Alabama damascus is made in the U.S. Their damascus is unique to their factory in the pattern they use. They use top quality carbon steels in their product. One reason just their damascus blanks will cost you 80-200 dollars depending on size you order.

[gbrown]

gBrown; Alabama damascus is made in the U.S. Their damascus is unique to their factory in the pattern they use. They use top quality carbon steels in their product. One reason just their damascus blanks will cost you 80-200 dollars depending on size you order.

Thank you sir. Just curious, have heard various people talk about knives and damascus. As said, dumb as a brick about the subject. Know of the brand name stuff, Buck, CRKT, etc., but not the "off the main drag" stuff.

[x101airborne]

Thanks everyone. I think this is going very well for a discussion. And, this is exactly what I would like to know.
I am kind of on a quest. I want to find the very best knife steel / maker I can find. I have found a definite medium in the kits sold by Texas Knifemakers Supply in their cryo treated kits. One of their knives, wich I carry in my boot has butchered two donkeys and about 12 hogs without needing sharpening. In fact, it was a pain in the rear because it was too sharp at first and I could not get any feel out of the knife. It just cut. Right through hide, gut and all. Now don't get me wrong, this was not with the factory edge. This was with my edge and I used a 100 grit stone, a 220 grit stone, a 400 grit stone, a 800 grit stone and then razor stropped the edge to a mirror shine. And it took me about 4 days to do it. So with putting all blame on me this is a really great knife for 60 bucks. But I want one of those knives that you can whittle on a hickory stump all day and shave with it the next morning. I think I am looking for a unicorn but it gives me something to do.
But DANG some of those handles on the import knives are nice looking.

[monadnock#5]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/secrets-viking-sword.html

The link above will will take you to a PBS program "Secrets of The Viking Sword". The episode is also available on Netflix. Ulfbehrt. The Japanese sword masters had nothing on the very few who knew how to make these. If you haven't seen this, prepare to be amazed.

[tonyjones]

Trey,

The next time you're in Houston I have some knives you need to see.

Regards,

Tony

[fouronesix]

WARNING- Blades can be addicting! Has something to do with all aspects in combination- the history, culture, science, craft, art, utility--- voila- hooked.

The Viking Sword program is pretty good but the part about and conclusions inferred comparing a Viking sword to a Japanese katana seemed a little over-cooked, like comparing apples to oranges.

[monadnock#5]

Comparing a Katana to the average Viking sword would definately be wrong. There is no comparison. The Japanese win hands down. Comparing a Katana to the Ulfbehrt however......
In addition, the OP wanted to know about Damascus. There's some good information on Damascus, and metallurgy in general.

[x101airborne]

Thanks for warning me about getting hooked on knife collecting, but too late. I have a drawer full of knives and use them for different things. Some are specific purpose knives, some are general use knives and some are like my wife..... I catch you holding one you better be able to talk faster than 780 fps.

[DHurtig]

PM sent

[MtGun44]

D2 tool steel makes a heck of a knife but BOY is it a PITA to sharpen!

Bill

[fouronesix]

Not to belabor the Viking sword portion of the thread, but what I take away after looking at the archaeological and metallurgical evidence and the opinions of those studying it in detail about the Viking sword in general and the very few Ulfberht specimens remaining--- the generic Viking swords were not unlike many of the European swords of the period. The major difference with the Viking Ulfberht was: the steel and the method of forging/heat treating was far ahead of other, comparable European swords. I imagine the average blades coming out of "Ole's" ye olde Viking sword shop were the product of whatever iron and/or steel and forging technology available and known at the time. At sometime one (or more) Viking blade smith's or shops gained access to what is likely raw Damascus steel (or something very similar) via the Volga trade route. Likewise, somehow and at some time, the knowledge to maximize the Damascus steel's properties in forging a quality sword blade was gained. The surviving Viking swords marked Ulfberht seem to support that possible conclusion or hypothesis.

[DougGuy]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/secrets-viking-sword.html

The link above will will take you to a PBS program "Secrets of The Viking Sword". The episode is also available on Netflix. Ulfbehrt. The Japanese sword masters had nothing on the very few who knew how to make these. If you haven't seen this, prepare to be amazed.

That was an AWESOME documentary! Thank you for posting the link!

[monadnock#5]

Having been "OFF THE AIR" for several years, the last thing I had in mind was to start a food fight now.
I agree 100% that the crucible steel used in the "real" +ULFBEHR+T's probably originated in Iran as was stated in the program.
I've found simple explanations of steel technology to be rare. Steel metallurgy really isn't that hard to understand however. The main purpose in my reference to the program wasn't to glorify the Viking way or their technology.
I asked my Dad once when I was a kid what made Damascus steel special. To say I was confused when he was done would be a gross understatement. The explanations I've received since then have been likewise contradictory to say the least.
If one should watch the program I linked, you will know what makes Damascus, or any other steel special.
One other thing. Steel as it leaves the foundry is called steel because all the various ingredients necessary for that particulay alloy have been mixed in the correct proportions and molded into a form specified by the customer. Provided that the foundry gets those things right, you still have a product that is steel in name only however. The next step is heat treatment. That's where the quality of the final product, or lack thereof, is made.

[x101airborne]

Looking around, there are US makers offering D2 and D1 tool steel knives already finished with sheaths for 40.00 with shipping.
I think that is about as reasonable as I am going to get. No good Damascus that I can identify, but a lot of tool steel knives out there.

[xs11jack]

x101airborne, it sounds as though the boot knife you already have will fulfill the conditions you outlined!
Ole Jack

[fouronesix]

Having been "OFF THE AIR" for several years, the last thing I had in mind was to start a food fight now.
I agree 100% that the crucible steel used in the "real" +ULFBEHR+T's probably originated in Iran as was stated in the program.
I've found simple explanations of steel technology to be rare. Steel metallurgy really isn't that hard to understand however. The main purpose in my reference to the program wasn't to glorify the Viking way or their technology.
I asked my Dad once when I was a kid what made Damascus steel special. To say I was confused when he was done would be a gross understatement. The explanations I've received since then have been likewise contradictory to say the least.
If one should watch the program I linked, you will know what makes Damascus, or any other steel special.
One other thing. Steel as it leaves the foundry is called steel because all the various ingredients necessary for that particulay alloy have been mixed in the correct proportions and molded into a form specified by the customer. Provided that the foundry gets those things right, you still have a product that is steel in name only however. The next step is heat treatment. That's where the quality of the final product, or lack thereof, is made.

+ 1 on that! One of the problems is that for the past 100+ years information about Damascus steel has been conflicting with a bunch of info put out and written that was plain wrong. As to the Viking Ulfberht, at that time in history it wouldn't surprise me if at some time evidence is uncovered which suggests that not only the areas around Damascus were trading high quality crucible steels to many parts of the world including the Viking areas but that wootz originating in India was also widespread, including far NW Europe via the Silk Road and connecting trade routes.

[Wayne Smith]

One thing not mentioned here and that was emphasized in the video and with everything I have ever read about Damascus swords - what was gained was not just hardness but hardness and flexibility - these swords didn't break like other swords, they bent.

How much flexibility do I need in a pocket knife or sheath knife?

I'll be satisfied with D2 or 154CM.

[monadnock#5]

The ideal owner of the ideal knife will choose the one job he selected his knife for, and never use it for anything else. Caping, boning, butchering... you would need something different for each.
Not being the ideal owner myself, the one or two knives I carry at any one time get treated like a toolbox. One knife is saved for special occasions. The other, regardless of its price is the disposable. It gets used in whatever way I see fit at the moment.
A few minutes ago I watched a video on the Cold Steel website to see if they still believe clamping one of their Bowie's in a vise, placing a 3' long pipe over the handle and then bending the blade beyond 45° out of alignment was in any way indicative of the quality of their products. Indeed, they still do.

[bbqncigars]

For those interested in what a good tool steel blade will withstand, watch Destroying the Deuce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itE3_p7Fxwg) by some Montana blade makers. The same blade is used with no re-sharpening for the whole video.

[Jammersix]

Listen to knifemaker.

Any metal is easily sharpened with the right equipment.

[fouronesix]

As to the OP about Damascus steel and the confusion about its definition. I dug out three blades and took a pic of each to maybe show the difference between pattern welded (what some have called Damascus steel for a long time) and what really is crucible Damascus or wootz steel. The whole difference is that the patterns of inclusions (grain structure) if any are already in the ingot of wootz. As the ingot is forged/drawn into a blade the structure is simply stretched or manipulated and shows the resulting patterns (if any). I included one blade that was made from a Damascus ingot but only shows a blotchy appearance. And a section of pattern welded rifle barrel for comparison

Each has a smooth surface but the lighting makes the surfaces appear rough.

pics:
A pattern welded example from Bali (what most incorrectly call "Damascus")
A very early Indo-Persian blade of blotchy Damascus steel
A Qajar Dynasty Persian blade of Damascus wootz showing classic structure
And, an Indo-Persian pattern welded rifle barrel for comparison

[smokeywolf]

I've had pretty good luck with Japanese made knives. My most favored kitchen knife is a Kershaw Shun 7 inch Santuko that I paid $150.00 for, about 7 years ago. It's an alloyed stainless modeled after the Damascus concept. Also have a Japanese made ceramic blade paring knife which I bought at the same time, $50.00. Still great, only gets used about once every week or two, still sharp, never been resharpened.

For hunting knives, my Randall Made 5 inch Skinner and/or a circa 1967 Case XX Bulldog folding knife.

In spite of being stainless, the Kershaw has proven to be so hard that it requires a diamond impregnated sharpener to dress the edge. Except for that one knife, I'm just too stubborn and old fashioned to give up my preference for high carbon steel blades. It's OK if they get stained. Keep the edge dressed, wash it by hand, dry it with a kitchen towel then on a warm stove top, teach that to your children and if they pass it on it'll still be carving the supper roast for your great, great grandchildren.

Although I have seen some nicely made and very serviceable custom knives fabricated from old power hacksaw blades and truck or bus leaf springs, other than the occasional garage sale find, "you get what you pay for" usually applies to knives.

If you ever order a custom knife from Randall, although worth the wait, you can be looking at a one year lead time

smokeywolf.

[fouronesix]

:) Agreed about some of the Japanese made stuff. At one time I'd recoil at the thought, but with omnipresent Chinese materials permeating very single thread of our existence, I'm to the point of buying anything BUT Chinese- if possible?. Even the much maligned stainless steel bladed Buck can be very serviceable- I learned some of the Buck blades are simply too thick to be effectively sharpened and they do require a diamond hone for best results. I set out to change one-- thinned the blade, changed the curve profile, re-did the hollow grind then re-set the edge angle and it became my go-to knife. Some of the collectible, antique and custom knives/blades are too valuable to lose or damage so they add weight to the safe.