First primers, now bullets?

[Jim]

I just came from Midway's site and noticed something I thought was unusual. Every listing for .308 150 gr. cannalured FMJ(NATO ball) is "out of stock, no back order". Ya' reckon the military is gettin' 'em all for their M60s?

[9.3X62AL]

Good possibility, Jim. The same folks making bullets for Cranks Like Us make them for Uncle Sam, and outbreaks of peace and decency in our world have been historically few, far between, and short-lived. I think my signature line by TR says it succinctly.

[twotrees]

In Afganistan they have re issued a shorter barreled version of the M14. Semi auto only, but still lots more punch than the mouse gun. Bet the stocks of 308 ball ammo is in short supply.

Georgia Arms, near me has 2 auto loading machines going 24/7 365 to help some company fill Mil orders. All FMJ .223 heads have been in short supply since last year.

I'll have to ask them if they have orders for FMJ 308's.

They have re-vamped their web site and it's a mess, you can't get to anything any more.

Mailing Address
Georgia Arms
P.O. Box 238
15 Industrial Ct. E.
Villa Rica, GA
30180


Phone Numbers
Phone: 800-624-6861
Fax: 770-459-1904


E-mail
gaarms@bellsouth.net

Contact them and ask about bulk bullets.

TwoTrees

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

If Uncle S. is finally re-issueing the m-14 on a wide scale, then it is about time. I am sure that it is the socom version but IMHO there is no better battlefield action/receiver on the planet.

Regards,
Everett

[montana_charlie]

As one who has created wound channels in enemy flesh with the 'mouse gun', I can attest to it's effectiveness when properly used. Also, when it appeared, it was an excellent weapon type for the 'drafted' Army that is was issued to.

At that time, raw recruits were being 'assembly lined' through basic training as fast as possible, and (unlike Marines) if the operator could fill a magazine with his thumb...and empty it with his trigger finger...he was classified as a 'rifleman'.

Troops are no longer (even in the Army) taught the 'spray-n-pray' method of shooting.
Today, when a soldier might be required to fire five aimed shots in quick succession to clear a room, there is still much value in the light-recoiling 'mouse gun'.

I am not implying that the M-16 family is 'better' than the M-14's descendants, just that different jobs are best done with weapons that are best suited for the circumstances.
And, there are times when the M-16 is a 'better choice'.
CM

[Bullshop]

You are right Charlie but when the surroundings are a bit more roomy there is no comparison, the m14 wins hands down.
Here is a case in point we could look at. In comparison to animals humans are likely easier to put down. My neihbor hase been flying a long time here in Alaska and was shooting wolves from the air when it was legal. They flew with a pilot and a shooter in a super cub. He told me that they started shooting with a mini 14. Once you got used to the required lead hits were easy but they were loosing too many well hit wolves.
They regrouped and got an M1A and after that things went very well indeed. The loses dropped of and he said most piled up with one good hit. Knowing what I know about how tough all the K9's are that tells quite a story.
BIC/BS

[Kraschenbirn]

'Bout a month ago, I ordered a couple thousand milsurp 147 gr FMJs for my Garand and, at that time, supplier had only 80K left in stock with half those slated for shipment as soon as a new customer's check cleared. Guy on the phone told me, then, that they had no idea when they might get in any more.

Bill

[beagle]

It's times like these that make me appreciate the fact that I have moulds and lead in plenty./beagle

[Catshooter]

beagle,

You have spoke the truth.


Cat

[twotrees]

I was in the Af when the M16 was first introduced. Even the gunnery Sgt's had so much Bull about that round I got turned off. When they got in wide spread use in Nam, a patrol usualy had a shotgun on point and at least 1 guy armed with a Thompson. The light 223 round didn't "cut brush" at all and the thompson would cut down the bamboo so the un-friendly could be delt with. they used snipers to knock down the 400 yard + un friendlies as too many of them got away wounded from the 223.

I have an AR and like it, yes you can carry lots more ammo in 223 that in 308, but the snipers mentality in me says, give me one good shot.

For house clearing duties I was issued an M2 and at room ranges is very effective. Sorry Ol Fart here, still likes the feel of wood and steel with a thump when it goes off.

The M16 of today is a much better weapon than what we were issued, but still have trouble betting my life on a round , that in most states, doesn't meet the min power requirments for legal deer hunting.

When Uncle Sugar issues me one I'll hump it, but given my druthers I'd rather have that SOCOM.

Good Shooting,

Twotrees

[montana_charlie]

He told me that they started shooting with a mini 14.
They regrouped and got an M1A and after that things went very well indeed.
The one possible flaw in that logic is the ammunition itself, Bullshop.
After the M-16 had been in the field for a while, there were some fairly wild stories about what it could do to 'meat'.
Some said the bullets 'blew up', and others said they would hit a guy in the hand, travel up his arm, and blow the shoulder off.

Fact is (as I understand it) the bullet was balanced so that it was just on the verge of being unstable in flight. As soon as it touched something, it went to tumbling...leaving a wound channel much different than any civilian ammuniton would.

Even those wolves might have fallen faster if hit with the military stuff fired from a military barrel. (I added that about the barrel in case civilian guns are rifled differently.)

It's true that I never had to 'cut brush' with an M-16. Being in a fixed location, I (and my partner) had a particular portion of the perimeter to cover. This wasn't working at 'room clearing' ranges, either. It varied from 20 to (maybe) 100 yards.
And, finally, I almost never used the full auto capability of the rifle.

Now, I can't claim I hit every target I shot at, nor that I killed every target I hit. But I killed every target I had a chance to take good aim at, and that's the honest truth.

And, there's no special magic in the M-14 if shot placement isn't right.

CM

[Bullshop]

I have to agree that the 223 cartridge is far more versatile now than it was when they were flying for wolves. Siera now has a 90gn bullet in 22 cal designed for the 223. I think a good hit with an 80gn Hornady V-max should do the trick. I shot some coyotes with a #3 Ruger in 223 using the 69 gn Siera when they first came out and felt it was way better than any thing in the 50's gn range. After they came out with the 80gn bullets I built two 22 cal rifles especially for hunting fur. Both were intended for long range and both were designed arround the one bullet. One was a 224 Clark on a long Sako action and the other a 22/243 Middlestead on a Rem short action both with a 1/9" twist. Both prooved good for thier intended purpose. The Clark would do the 69's at nearly 4100 fps and the 80's as fast as a 22/250 will shoot a 55 gn. Talk about flat shooting and wind bucking! Now I am looking at that 90gn and wondering what it will do. I can build the gun but I dont have the body to carry me hunting like I used to. Maybe one of the Jr's.
BIC/BS

[Pathfinder1cav]

MC..
I'm sure that we must have shot together somewhere in BPCR (Quigley, Raton, KW's?), based on some of your posts & maybe have somewhat similar experiences in the '60's. So I tend to respect your oppinion, but after after shooting a number of VC at close range in '65-'66 & watching the tracers go straight through with out knocking them down, I have not owned or used that black gun. Yes, they all eventually died, but you WANT that SOB to go down & not move after the first shot! I suspect that you are right about new recruits & fast follow up shots in buildings. I guess like Bullshop indicated- got to pick the tool for the particular job at hand. Since I like long range stuff, I'd probably try to put myself in that position if it ever came to that again, so it is .30 for me!
So after saying that, actually I have an AR-15 DPMS-CMP on order to shoot DCMP matches here, as they do very well in target shooting with all of the upgrades over 40 years! :>)

[montana_charlie]

You give me way too much credit, Pathfinder.

I have not owned or used that black gun.
Neither have I, though I have handled a couple.

I guess I feel a need to say good stuff about the 'pea shooter' because that's what they gave me to get through the tour with...and I did...in spite of spending most of my year on a mountain-top hotspot that seemed to be a 'charlie magnet'.

But (in the intervening years), whenever I pick up one of those military Mattels I start to feel a vague 'tension'. Since I can never decide whether to enjoy it, or be ashamed of it, I lay the gun down and it goes away.

I will never own one, but I get a taste of that same 'squirminess' whenever the local Air Base sends one of their Hueys out to the missile site just north of our place.

CM

[RugerFan]

I just came from Midway's site and noticed something I thought was unusual. Every listing for .308 150 gr. cannalured FMJ(NATO ball) is "out of stock, no back order". Ya' reckon the military is gettin' 'em all for their M60s?

Nope. Most if not all M60s are out of service. M240 series in play now.:Fire:

[nighthunter]

If the range allows I vote for the 30. Then if there is a little more room I vote for the 50. Yes ... I have experience to talk from and yes the mailman brings my disability check on the first of the month from the VA and has done so since 1971. 223 is borderline insufficient in battle. I don't care what ammo you put in it. 308 gets things done. When did American fighting men become so sensitive to recoil and the weight of 200 rounds of ammo that they had to lower their standards to an inferior cartridge? The same goes for the 9mm over the 45 ACP. Who are we trying to kid? We are sending our sons to war with inferior weapons than those used by there foes. We used to be the greatest nation on earth but now we are mocked. We need to arm our troops with weapons that wll get the job done. Not weapons thought up in some research room. Weapons that have prevailed in the past. Weapons that combined with the heart and soul of an American GI can show the world how things are going to be. I believe we are still the greatest nation in the world and we just need to get the message to those that think they are leading us.
Nighthunter

[Jim]

Boy, this thread sure got off on a tangent.

[Buckshot]

Boy, this thread sure got off on a tangent.

...............What, here at Cast Boolits?!!! :-)

............Buckshot

[arkypete]

There's only two rifles in my safe that get fed condum bullets and they are both AR10s.
Graf and Sons have imported some 168 grain BTHPs from PRVI Partizan that are accurate in mine. The Russian 7.62/308 work well through the carbine version of the AR10, primers are harder then the NATO stuff so use a stronger hammer spring.
Everything else gets fed the true and rightious boolets.
Jim