Smokeless Muzzleloading/ Or is it? [Archive]

Rattus58

10-18-2007, 05:30 AM

First off... let me lay out my passions.... I am a traditional muzzleloader shooter. I love the old guns and my experience until recently has been with mostly caplocks. Now I have two flintlocks along with my battery of caplocks.. which include a volunteer, some T/C's, some Investarms, a couple of military replica's.. musketoon and zoave... and roughly 7 or 8 inlines... of which because they shoot so impeccably well with such beauty and elegance are amongst my most favorite guns to shoot. One of them is set up to occasionally shoot the dreaded experimental powder.

Ok... that is me.

What is muzzleloading? What is traditional muzzleloading. What is primitive muzzleloading and what is the difference? Powder; what is the difference to the act of loading?

The short story for me is:

If it loads from the muzzle it is a muzzleloader.

Traditional muzzleloading. For me it is the use of sidelocks.

Primitive muzzleloading. For me it is the use of a period correct muzzleloader.

Powders for me is whatever goes off in your gun.

Scopes for me are ok. My perspective is that it is the firearm that matters, not the scope, not the sling, not the engraving etc. I can see primitive seasons not having scopes.

Do I have a problem with inlines and sidelocks in the same season? Of course not especially when I'm hunting with my inline loaded with 38 grains of my favorite experimental... :grin: Do others have problems with my interpretations.... why yes ... :)

What is the purpose of the seasons... some call them Black Powder seasons, others call them Muzzleloader seasons, a couple still call them primitive arms seasons.

So what are your perceptions of what we need for black powder/muzzleloader/primitive seasons??

Aloha... :cool:

Bullshop

10-18-2007, 11:49 AM

A question if I may? Is your passion for ML arms fueld by restrictions on other arms in your location? Just curious.
BIC/BS

Rattus58

10-18-2007, 12:02 PM

Nope not a all.... you can hunt with just about anything you want... I just like muzzleloaders... :)

testhop

10-18-2007, 03:36 PM

Underclocked

10-18-2007, 05:15 PM

The argument over type of action - whether the igniter is struck a blow from an arc or a straight-on hammer - is ludicrous. There are rifles of both types that can reliably deliver a projectile with exceptional accuracy.

The argument over smokeless use is another matter. There is already a side-tracked thread on that subject but I'll offer up my opinion here (break out the TP). ;)

Some seem to think that restricting the use of smokeless in a muzzleloader is/would be a violation of their personal freedoms. Horse hockey!! Not being allowed to bat from outside the batter's box could be construed to also be a restriction of freedom.

Is it a restriction of FREEDOM to have hunting limits and rules??... maybe, but most sane people see the usefulness of those restrictions.

The very reasons that most give for USING smokeless suggest to me those same people should never have bothered with muzzleloaders at all. Just buy a .270 and hunt.

In the middle of this small response, I got a call from the daughter of a long-time friend telling me her Dad is eat up with cancer and she was asking me for advice about certain treatments I had used. Sort of makes this whole subject seem trivial.

mooman76

10-18-2007, 05:35 PM

Each state does their own interpritation or deffinition of a primitive firearm/hunting according to their needs as well it should be. Most states have some kind of M/L season wether they call it M/L or primitive it doesn't matter. I don't believe totally in using inlines during hunting M/L season, I think it should be the traditional sidelock but to each his own. IL does not have a rifle season, they have an shotgun, archery and ML season and I believe if I am not mistaken they allow inlines which is fine there since they don't have a regular rifle season.
When I hunted in UT some years ago they had both a primitive season and a M/L season. The primitive being your choice of archery, shotgun or M/L. The M/L season was strictly M/L no smokeless powder, no scopes and they had a minimum weight on the projectile. They did not have a stipulation on inlines as they were new and not used much yet. I don't know if they changed or not.

Rattus 58 for the most part I agree with you. I don't believe for the most part that inlines should be used for a primitive season but at the same time I don't have a problem with it and I would probubly use one as well if I though I would have inclimate weather and they are more weather proof. Back east the deer are getting so thick they can't seem to keep the poulation down and they can have looser restrictions. Here in the west were it is dryer they don't have the population problem because the limited amount of food keeps the population down as well as the occational hard winter that kills off surplus population. Natures way of tending the herds.
I do own one inline and the other dozen or so pistols and rifles are period correct except for a couple with modified stocks and I even have one old original M/L squirrel rifle that weights a ton. I don't know if this come out making since but that's my 2cents worth.

waksupi

10-18-2007, 08:29 PM

Something to think about, in using various granuations in ML's. When the old rule of thumb, 3FFF for .45 and under, and 2FF for bores larger, powders were different. Back then, the sporting powders were much better grade than generally available to us. Most of the locals here use 3FFF in pretty much everything.

singleshotbuff

10-18-2007, 08:33 PM

Rattus,

Glad to see that you started a new thread to continue this discussion. As I stated on the other hi-jacked thread, I'm not sure I have anything else useful or rellevant to add to this debate, but here is my personal take on this matter (which is worth exactly what you paid for it).

As far as I'm personally concerned, a "muzzleloader" or "primitive" season weapon should be a gun that;

Loads from the muzzle (obviously).

Uses an ignition system that pre-dates centerfire rifles, such as caplock, flintlock, matchlock etc.

Uses powder (I.E. blackpowder) that also pre-dates CF rifles.

Fires lead bullets (as far as I know, there were no plastics for sabots when flinters roamed the earth)

If it pre-dates CF rifles, that keeps it primitive to me. (please don't lecture me about the dates that centerfire/rimfire guns were developed, I know, I think everyone can agree that once the CF was PERFECTED, the M/L fell out of general use).

The above is just my opinion, and may well be viewed as too restrictive by people who only "muzzleloader hunt" for the opportunity to take an additional deer. As I've said before, I couldn't care less what you kill your deer or other game with, my only concern is that "rule beaters" may eventually spell the end of true "blackpowder/muzzleloader/primitive" seasons for those of us that enjoy them. I'd like to be able to shoot deer in Ohio with my CF rifles, but that's another story.

The view point that eastern US deer populations are allowing more liberal rules/regulations is correct. Recently Ohio has SUBSTANTIALLY increased the bag limit for deer. In some areas of Ohio, it is now legal to take 7 deer (I think), whereas just a few years ago the maximum in the state was 3 deer.

In a similar vien, I also fear that advances in factory sabot shotgun ammunition may lead to rule changes in "shotgun only" states. If I'm correct, the "rationale" behind "shotgun only" is to limit the distance a projectile travels in the interest of safety (not saying I agree with this rationale, see above about wanting to use CF rifles). Some of the latest sabot shotgun loads are capable of cleanly killing deer at 200+ yards, which to me takes them out of the traditional shotgun realm, but that's a discussion for another time, in a more appropriate forum.

Please bear in mind, I DO NOT wish to restrict anyones right to take deer or other game with any gun they want too, FAR FROM IT. I'm just concerned about irrational (at times) game departments sort of "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

SSB

Rattus58

10-18-2007, 08:55 PM

Underclocked Some seem to think that 1) restricting the use of smokeless in a muzzleloader is/would be a violation of their personal freedoms. Horse hockey!! Not being allowed to bat from outside the batter's box could be construed to also be a restriction of freedom.

2) Is it a restriction of FREEDOM to have hunting limits and rules??... maybe, but most sane people see the usefulness of those restrictions.

We are currently writing the rules for game management on the Big Island (some of which will spill over to the rest of the state). We are asked to look at two things in writing the rules. 1) Safety and 2) Conservation. If it doesn't fit, get rid of it. Now admittedly there are a lot of people that are being paid by the state that might disagree with some of our recommendations due to bias, but as it would apply here;

1) restricting the use of smokeless in a muzzleloader is/would be a violation of their personal freedoms. Horse hockey!! Not being allowed to bat from outside the batter's box could be construed to also be a restriction of freedom.

Out. What safety reason is there? People know what muzzleloaders and loads are safe in their muzzleloaders. Enforcement! Who and how will you enforce this? Unenforceable throw it out. Conservation: No impact on conservation.

2) Is it a restriction of FREEDOM to have hunting limits and rules??... maybe, but most sane people see the usefulness of those restrictions.

Caliber restrictions. What is the point? Where is the data that points to one caliber over another. Why should one have to use a 50 caliber if a 40 caliber will do the job. Why would one have to use a 50 caliber if a 35 caliber will do... or a .336? How does caliber assure shot placement, for example? Now, bag limits, that is conservation and acceptable by our criteria. Method of hunting in certain areas versus others. Again, this can be for conservation (ala Idaho southern regions being archery only have low deer numbers) If in fact, as Idaho Fish and Game have told me, they ACTUALLY did this for opportunity versus bag limits, I'm all for it... in other words, archery won't impact herds as much as firearms and thus can have conservation reasons.

Hunter Orange. I believe this impacts safety. I'm for it. Some don't want it because of freedom to wear what I want... we are going to debate this. What other rules would you have for hunting that I'm missing? Bag limits, Hunter Orange, and methods of hunting... defining centerfire/general seasons, archery/crossbow, and muzzleloader and maybe a primitive season. End of story!.. What else should there be in your opinion?

Ok.... need to think about this a little bit more.... :)

Aloha.... :cool:

Rattus58

10-18-2007, 11:40 PM

Smokeless powder.

Let me ask anyone... Hunting. If you kill a deer with black powder and a sabot bullet of some kind, or with smokeless and the same sabot bullet does the deer know the difference? If you are a smokeless powder proponent, you might say that smokeless is more reliable and more accurate than the black powder and thus is more humane. What do we as a black powder shooter's say to counter those statements? Well never mind what do we say, how do we prove it?

So discussing black powder versus smokeless what exactly are we discussing? Forget the safety aspects of this. People who shoot guns should be intelligent enough to know what you can shoot in it and at what limits. Just pure and simple, blackpowder versus smokeless? Are we going to compare the joy of shooting black powder over smokeless? Ok... joy for who? Should YOU be regulating my enjoyment? What if black powder affects my asthma? What if I prefer the reduced recoil of smokeless over black powder? Forgetting accuracy, recoil, clean-up, why should I HAVE to shoot black powder if my gun can shoot smokeless? From a safety and conservation point of view?

Aloha... :cool:

waksupi

10-19-2007, 12:09 AM

In the past, when meeting someone else out in the mountains, carrying a flintlock, we have been known to sit and visit, maybe make a cup of tea, and maybe even hunt together. When I see someone hunting with modern weapons, I would just as soon put as much distance between them and I, as possible. I don't like them breathing my air. This isn't to say I don't hunt with cartridge rifles. But, everything in it's time, and place.

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 12:25 AM

You don't want them breathing your air....... ??

I Haines

10-19-2007, 01:27 AM

My 2 cents - I love traditional ML firearms. I own a half dozen of em. Don't own an inline. I use real black powder but have tried pyrodex. I do the local rendezvous and a lot of informal ML shooting. I started hunting with my ML guns. I like to experiment with my BP loads and even use a chronograph to make comparisons.

I do see the lure of inlines. They are high performance ML guns. There's a lot of room to experiment if that's what you like to do. They just aren't my cup of tea. As a traditional BP shooter I don't feel threatened by inlines.

As far as hunting seasons, I thought the idea was to make seasons or special hunts for ML firearms because they were a disadvantage compared to modern CF guns. Like archery seasons, give the guys who want more of a challenge an opportunity to be out there and not have to compete with the masses.

I think that inlines have evolved beyond the disadvantage stage. A scoped inline, firing saboted bullets can be deadly accurate at 200 yards as well as being 99% reliable in wet weather. Hell, they have electronic ignition now. If ML seasons required r/balls or conicals and iron sights I don't think I would have a problem with the inline action.

omgb

10-19-2007, 02:53 AM

Inlines to me are like fake boobs and heavy make up. I just don't enjoy them. I like my guns like my women, natural and traditional. If I want to hunt with a CF I'll do so, if I want to hunt BP I'll go traditional ... that's the allure. I know lots of guys who feel otherwise ..... more power to them.

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 04:49 AM

As far as hunting seasons, I thought the idea was to make seasons or special hunts for ML firearms because they were a disadvantage compared to modern CF guns. Like archery seasons, give the guys who want more of a challenge an opportunity to be out there and not have to compete with the masses.

I think that inlines have evolved beyond the disadvantage stage. A scoped inline, firing saboted bullets can be deadly accurate at 200 yards as well as being 99% reliable in wet weather. Hell, they have electronic ignition now. If ML seasons required r/balls or conicals and iron sights I don't think I would have a problem with the inline action.

Hmmmmm .... now... why would you have any problem with scopes? Isn't the idea to make sure you hit what you aim at? How does the scope change any of the dynamics of the gun? Don't you want the gun to be "deadly accurate". Are you saying that you are ok with hunting with a gun that is not "deadly accurate"?

What does waterproofing have to do with anything? Live in the rain and if you still insist on going hunting, you can waterproof you gun adequately to still go hunting. So what's the big deal about with the waterproofing?

You are saying that the inline muzzleloader is like a centerfire? Well so are many sidelocks... in fact there is a flintlock that is like a centerfire rifle... one shot at a time...

Time to reflect I think....

Aloha... :cool:

charger 1

10-19-2007, 06:32 AM

Smokeless powder.

Let me ask anyone... Hunting. If you kill a deer with black powder and a sabot bullet of some kind, or with smokeless and the same sabot bullet does the deer know the difference?

Aloha... :cool:

I told ya before. Our quite hyper whitetail know very much the difference of the same slug at near 1000 FPS more.... As you.ve guessed I shoot the savage. Buddy shoots an tc hawken. I did a slow walk through the bush one time bout 3 years back to a beaver dam buddy was at, cause I knew there was a nice buck track/bed in there. Didnt hardly get started and heard the bang, followed by a call on the radio to come out. So out I came. Now me and buddy were only 12-15 feet apart but I had to go back around. Dam wasnt stable enough to walk on. So I said to buddy was it him, the nice buck? Oh ya, was a peach. Oh good we got him. I said did you really drill him good. Oh hell ya, right in the boiler room. I said OK just hang tight. The 20 minutes I need to get back to you will be good time to let him die real good. I only got 80 yds round the pond, looked across on a slop at the far side. And theres a beauty. I thought frikin kaka two dominants in this little area, never heard of. The deer walks behind some thick junipers as I go down on one knee. The crop of a rock I know only to well is right, I mean right behind him. He's gonna come forward more, or to the left behind that rock and gone forever. My guess is if this guys on the move from Rons shot noise. it'll be to the left to get away from the commotion... Knowing the trophy loss I thought well OK I'll go head placement. If I miss I miss with no wounding. Blam, after I regained my compusure you could still see the blood mist in the cold air and the body still sliding a bit. Called Ron, well we got two bro. Yeeha woopee filled the radio waves. Meet me round there we'll gut yours while were at it. Do I really have to finish this Aloha boy??? There werent know Rons deer.... Oh he'd hit it, at 40 yds diagonally slucked as I call those slow mo's right through a lung....Didnt have the shock...Where we hunt you shut em down hard, you shut em down in their tracks or you dont see em again. Oh if I recall the base of head shot which turned out to be on the same deer I recall was ranged at around 170...You know thinking back on it it woulda been fair chaser to have let im go as wolf food. Or you'll tell me theres no way Ron coulda rode the bullet so shouldnt a fired. Oh come on. A flat liner saved a deer not to be found. I know the situ and I know that. So thats what I'll stick with. The nice thing about these guns is the same as magnums, I can load a 300 mag down to 06 levels, pretty tough goin the other way. If I get a chance to go hunt in a place with laws that stipulate charcoal, I go grab a jug of charcoal and go. If you got a charcoal burner your underpowered here...It dont go both ways

Underclocked

10-19-2007, 08:33 AM

Whut?

waksupi

10-19-2007, 08:45 AM

So, you have deer tough enough to survive a ball through the lungs, huh? Then take shots at the head, so you can have a clean miss? I've seen enough deer and antelope with jaws shot off to not be too kindly towards that practice.

fishhawk

10-19-2007, 09:17 AM

well i got to say this.........aw forget it doesn't even warrent a response for logic like that

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 12:48 PM

I told ya before. Aloha boy??? If I get a chance to go hunt in a place with laws that stipulate charcoal, I go grab a jug of charcoal and go. If you got a charcoal burner your underpowered here...It dont go both ways

Aloha boy....??? What you are telling me charge, is your woodmanship skills are zero. I'd be ashamed to be in the forest hunting knowing as you do that if you don't drop it on the spot you won't find it. You also seem to be saying you won't even look for it. Well you live it your way, many of us others will live it our way.

I've lost one deer in my entire hunting lifetime. I spent all day looking for that deer and it made me sick. I've been very lucky in that regard from two sources. One, I use bullets that have a great track record, and two, I've been lucky in my shot placement.

Your point of view borders on sheer arrogance. I sincerely thought you were joking before with your comments, but I see you have some real challenges ahead of you.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that you aren't familiar with muzzleloader bullets either. That's a pity because you engage your fingers unto the keyboard without knowing from what you speak.

By the way, do you have transcripts of those interviews you all did with them "hyper-whitetails"? I'd be interested to see what they have to say about the banana patch, the U/C short, and the 575611... not to mention a good ol roundball of good proportion.

omgb

10-19-2007, 12:53 PM

I've hit lots of deer and a couple of Elk with RBs from a TC 50 cal Hawken and shock of all shocks, they died ... just a few feet from where they were hit. Of course, I passed up dozens of questionable shots, stocked close between 50 to 70 yards or so and I practice off hand ... a lot. I have never seen a raking shot that went end to end and hit lungs not kill within minutes. Of course, I've never seen a deliberate head shot off hand at 100+ yards either so perhaps I've led a sheltered life.

Savage makes a Jim-dandy rifle. Powerful, accurate and attractive. It is an excellent game getter for sure and a man so armed is well equipped for hunting any game on this continent. That being said, he's not armed with a traditional muzzle loader. he has what is effectively, a center fire rifle that uses no cartridge. The powder in this case being irrelevant. It is the ignition system, the bullet and the sighting equipment that make a traditional ML. If one is sticking to the traditional side lock, cap primed or flint and using a round ball and patch with blade and leaf sights, one is at a distinct disadvantage to one how is armed with an in-line or a cartridge gun. That sirs, is a demonstrable fact. Now, to a great degree, the skill of the rifleman can ameliorate that disadvantage. Still, he is at a disadvantage in both killing range and in sighting ability. The odds against proper ignition clime dramatically with the atmospheric conditions our nimrod is faced with too. Bring on rain or a snow storm, shoot, even a heavy morning dew and the caplock or flint shooter is far less likely to get good rapid ignition than his in-line armed counterpart. C'mon guys, step up to the plate on this one and lets call a spade a spade. There is nothing immoral, unsportsmanlike-like or untoward in the use of an in-line unless one is trying to pass it off as equivalent to a traditional ML. To imply or out-right claim it's the same however can be likened to trying to say that a mechanically aspirated computer controlled NASCAR is equal to a 1960s era carburetored, point and condenser stock car. They just aren't in the same league. So, to be clear, I'm not against the use of in-lines I'm just opposed to saying they are muzzle loaders like your typical Hawken or Pennsylvania deer rifle.

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 01:23 PM

Hi OMGB.... :)

While I certainly agree with you that an inline is aesthetically different from a caplock and that it has a different ignition arrangement, it essentially cannot be called anything but a muzzleloader. Change the barrel around a little and a caplock performs no different than an inline. Keep the guns together. Anyone can compare a anything as being stock and another as being souped up and say... see... huge difference.

But take both guns and put them together equally, there is little to distinguish them. Now I'm not talking about smokeless powder versus black here, but an inline black versus an caplock black. Take the guns side by side, there is no difference. Weather? Well maybe... I've not been in snow, but in rain you can do a good job of keeping things dry if you try.

Oh... what I'm referring to, is that an RMC 1-28 twist sabot shooting flintlock is going to toss a similar bullet as a 1-28 twist caplock versus a 1-28" inline. Scopes can be added to any gun. Set triggers can make any sidelock as soft shooting as an adjustable timney trigger.

Aloha... :cool:

Uncle R.

10-19-2007, 03:06 PM

I love these discussions about iron-plated deer. Being a Wisconsin boy and having hunted Wisconsin deer for forty years it's one of the few subjects I'm really knowledgeable about. I've personally taken way over fifty whitetails - (probably more like seventy-five by now) and I've witnessed and helped trail, gut and drag at least twice as many more.
Boasting aside - I'm gonna stick up for Charger here. Can you kill deer with a light load? Of course. Will you FIND that deer? Sometimes. Can a deer (especially a big, tough, rutting buck) be shot through the lungs with a small gun and still be on his feet several minutes later? Yes - I've seen it. I've seen fatal wounds that left no blood trail at all - and MANY times. I've seen lung-shot deer go over two hundred yards - and not just once either. I saw a little nubbin buck that probably didn't weigh ninety pounds take THREE broadside hits through the ribs from a 7 mag and TWO from a .308 - and travel over 100 yards - before he finally went down. Believe it or not, the shooting was excellent. (I know, 'cause I was the guy on the 7!) We DID get that one - and when we skinned him out I covered all five entrance holes with one hand. A four inch group - centered on the rib cage. Every one of them was a perfect fatal lung shot - but that little buck just didn't want to co-operate.
Do things like this happen often? Nope - but hunt and shoot long enough and often enough - you'll see strange things happen.
I used to be a light gun advocate - believing that more deer were lost due to poor shooting than underpowered cartridges. In the last ten years I've swung my attitude around toward more power. I hate to admit it but I'm now in agreement with most of those typewriter experts. I very much recommend the .270, .308 and .30-06 class cartridges for deer. The .30-30 is adequate but that's about all, and if you go smaller, you're pushing your luck.
<
Now take a look at the energy figures for a .490 round ball striking at 1600 fps and see how that compares to my favorite cartridges...
:twisted:
<Flame Suit On!>
Uncle R.

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 05:30 PM

Well first off Uncle R... we're talking about muzzleloaders here, and your 75 deer aside, I totally disagree with you. Have we had deer run, of course, that's why you learn tracking skills. Do deer drop every time... nope... but in my case they usually have. Without getting into Kinetic energy versus momentum, its easy to take the side of a 270 over the round ball. But you as well probably don't understand big muzzleloader bullets very well either.

A 58 round ball does devastating work on deer, pigs, goats and sheep. A 58 slug or conical is like being hit with a freight train. Sure I have to get closer, but that's woodsmanship. We look at muzzleloading as archery hunting with a firearm.

All that aside, lets look at your 270 and .308 compared to my 45 muzzleloader and let's take my 58 instead at 1400. Your energy is a little better at 2800 and 2600 pounds, but how can you complain of the rest of it... momentum is better than the 270, momentum with acceleration (penetration) and for whatever its worth the taylor index... and you call muzzleloaders weak.... You my friend need to get more time in the outdoors. You'd be embarrassed by a 58 conical.

Bullet Weight (gr) 150
Bullet Diameter (inch) 0.270
Sectional Density 0.294
Velocity 2950
Momentum in foot pound 63.21
Momentum valued with acceleration 1.94
Kinetic Energy 2899
Taylor Index 17.068

Bullet Weight (gr) 150
Bullet Diameter (inch) 0.308
Sectional Density 0.226
Velocity 2800
Momentum in foot pound 60.00
Momentum valued with acceleration 1.84
Kinetic Energy 2612
Taylor Index 18.480

Bullet Weight (gr) 470
Bullet Diameter (inch) 0.451
Sectional Density 0.330
Velocity 1450
Momentum in foot pound 97.36
Momentum valued with acceleration 2.98
Kinetic Energy 2195
Taylor Index 43.908

Bullet Weight (gr) 280
Bullet Diameter (inch) 0.578
Sectional Density 0.120
Velocity 1400
Momentum in foot pound 56.00
Momentum valued with acceleration 1.72
Kinetic Energy 1219
Taylor Index 32.368

Aloha... :cool:

piwo

10-19-2007, 06:43 PM

. Most of the locals here use 3FFF in pretty much everything.

So do I, and with my .54 flinter, 3F outperforms 2F hands down. No comparison. Does that mean it will for every .54 rifle?? Course not.....

Experimentation is the key, or else we learn nothing....

Rattus58 and I are kindred in our love of muzzleloading, but I guess the categories don't cover all the options. What is the intent of the "muzzleloader" season? Guess each state would need to determine that. Primitive needs to be primitive weapons in my book, and smokeless powders and compound bow's don’t' qualify. Neither do plastic cross-bows. But that's just my interpretation of the term. Doesn't mean its right or wrong, just the way I interpret the word/words (or my interpretation of the "intent").

IN the end, shooting sports people need to provide a united front and not allow themselves to be segregated, divided, then conquered.

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 07:29 PM

Hi PIWO.... :)

I hunt with a 58 caliber roundball green mountain on a rebuilt renegade stock with Hawken trigger and L&R lock. I also hunt with an open sight White. All are conicals or round balls and all cast bullets.

Crossbows are more primitive than are compounds, so lets keep perspective, they were shot alongside longbows and recurves all through the ages from around 1200 AD. A recurve crossbow for hunting is no different than any other bow. But this is a cast bullet thread.

I agree with you about primitive being primitive, if that was what the intent is. I might depart a little here and say that your flinter would be possibly qualifying where my 58's wouldn't. Fortunately for me... I have now two .54 flinters as well. As for muzzleloading, in my opinion... OPINION... if its a muzzleloading season, I don't see the purpose in making distinctions as long as it loads from the muzzle.

Aloha... :cool:

Jim

10-19-2007, 08:55 PM

Man, this gettin' thick as a cane break.

Rattus58

10-19-2007, 09:06 PM

When you say thick.... like "laying it on thick"... like kumbaya thick.... like getting deep... like into deep into discussion... or like the smoke here is getting thick... what you mean brah.... :) By the way... I grew up around sugar cane and a cane break aint got no cane... :)

Aloha... :cool:

waksupi

10-19-2007, 10:28 PM

I can give a bit of insight on the purpose of muzzleloading seasons, and why, at least for Montana.
I would say it was most likely John Baird, with urging from Dan Pharris, who first started pushing for a primitive season in Montana, and make no mistake about it, they were talking about traditional, ML firearms, preferably flinters, but would grudgingly accept caplocks into the fold.
After much discussion, it was determined that most serious BP hunters didn't need a special season, as we didn't feel handicapped against the modern rifle hunters, because of a long season, and a lot of untouched area to hunt. However, there were areas, that limited range weapons were a good idea for the harvest and thinning of deer.
Once this premise had been established, state representative Ethyl Harding came to one of our Freetrapper encampments, on the lower Flathead River, within the Flathead Indian Reservation, nearly 30 years ago. Over the weekend, our group layed out the primitive weapons laws for the state, which I believe are still in force. There have been no updates, other than that regulating more modern developments. It is still patched roundball only in the state of Montana, for ML areas.

Rattus58

10-20-2007, 12:34 AM

Hi Waksupi.... :)

I think that you embody the feeling of most serious black powder shooters; you aren't threatened by the .270 or anything else. I totally agree. I hunt every season with a muzzleloader, whether general firearms or muzzleloader season with either one of my muzzleloaders or longbow.

That's why so much of the traditional versus modern arguments not only hollow, I think that you hit it right on the head, the bulk of the so called "traditionalists" are threatened by their own insecurities and bath it in phony "traditionalism" where a true traditionalist is himself confident in his ability.

Personally I don't care if I have to hunt with a flintlock or even a period correct arms, but to me, a muzzleloader is just that.... :)

Aloha... :cool:

waksupi

10-20-2007, 01:15 AM

That's why so much of the traditional versus modern arguments not only hollow, I think that you hit it right on the head, the bulk of the so called "traditionalists" are threatened by their own insecurities and bath it in phony "traditionalism" where a true traditionalist is himself confident in his ability.

Aloha... :cool:

You may have hit it on the head. While the traditionalist is confident in what he is capable of, he is also one to look askance at someone who tries to invade thier territory, under false pretenses. The modern inline users, are only hunting the deer, that no one else will hunt.
Funny thing, inlines are legal in Montana during regular rifle season. Yet, I have never see anyone use one. And, I do believe it will be a long search, to find one for sale in any of the stores around here. Yet, there are some ML/shotgun only areas around here. It just shows me, those who use the inlines are generally opportunists, with no respect for the true aspect of ML sport. I can personally do without this type.

Rattus58

10-20-2007, 01:45 AM

What does that mean... invading their territory under false pretenses to hunt deer no one else will hunt? How false is that? No one else is hunting them. That is a falso pretense?

Aloha... :cool:

charger 1

10-20-2007, 02:56 AM

those who use the inlines are generally opportunists, .

I dont know . I've owned whats referred to as the trditional ML and found they really lend themselves to the oppurtunity of picking up gun, powder, etc and go bang away. Let me put it this way, I was a hell of a lot longer learning how to take a hi perf inline to its limits of performance than I was with the traditional

piwo

10-22-2007, 06:21 PM

Hi PIWO.... :)

Crossbows are more primitive than are compounds, so lets keep perspective, they were shot alongside longbows and recurves all through the ages from around 1200 AD.

Well, not exactly….That explains why crossbows can be used ONLY during the firearm season and not the bow season in many if not most states?... Modern crossbows have very little in common with their 1200 AD predecessors. Yes, they are an ancient design in principle, but modern materials, design refinements, cocking assist enhancements, scopes do not make them primitive. If a traditional version, with traditional materials, sights and design is used, then it’s a primitive weapon and a very powerful weapon indeed. I’d love to hunt with one since my 6 shoulder surgeries make shooting even a “modern compound” repeatedly, only a distant memory. I could get a DR.s note here in MO to allow me the use of a crossbow in MO, but haven’t done so: maybe someday. Fact is I can kill far more deer here then my wife will tolerate with muzzle loaders, so the expanded season wouldn’t add that much……

Don’t get me confused with the oft mentioned snobbish “traditionalist” crowd. Yes I build my own muzzle loaders, yes I built my own Tipi, but what a man (or woman) uses to bag their legal game with is of little concern to me. I say little because chasing game into pits with pointed spears might be “traditional” in some parts of the world, but not in the spirit of “fair chase” that I admire. I say kill them humanely with the respect they deserve and don’t worry about the composition.

I only respond since we’re talking opines of definitions of given words, not what “should or should not” be……

Rattus58

10-22-2007, 11:01 PM

Actually not to get sidetracked, but to correct you on something. NFAA originally, and this is like in 1900, made a distinction for the purposes of field or target archery between regular bows and crossbows. This is perfectly understandable. However, when Bill Wadsworth wrote the Bowhunting course for the state of New York in the late 1940's (48 I think) in conjunction with the NFAA, the weasel inserted that same restriction that crossbows were not to be allowed in bowhunting seasons out of what can only be considered personal bias.

NBEF today does NOT recognize the wadsworth bias and does not restrict crossbows from archery seasons and in fact in Advanced Bowhunter Courses crossbows are specifically addressed. I don't know which Crossbow company it is, but one of them distributes the NBEF crossbow manual with each of their crossbows.

To put a crossbow in ANY GUN season is the height of idiocy, and when proposed to be there by compound bow shooters, the height of hypocrisy. If you would care for me to continue my argument, I'd be happy to, but for now, after 3 months of some pretty intense research on crossbows for the state of hawaii, I have a pretty unbiased perspective of crossbows and I can unequivocally state, they do not belong in any season other than archery... and I have lots to back that up.

Much Aloha,

Tom :cool:

Underclocked

10-23-2007, 02:32 AM

No wonder the hunting rules in most states are complex to the point of being ludicrous.

Rattus58

10-23-2007, 04:38 AM

No kidding... we're working on ours right now. OUr mission... Safety or Conservation...otherwise out. There is going to be alot of out.... :grin:

Aloha... :cool:

725

10-23-2007, 10:54 AM

All I care about is that the gun/hunter combo are of sufficient skill to practice the grand tradition of hunting with mature respect for the game and the art. Hot heads are a dime a dozen and worth about as much. If anything separates us as a group (gun guys & gals) and gives ammo to our enemies (the anti's) it's immature, rash, blowhards and slobhunters. Personally, the only gun I don't like or find interesting are those not well made. My favorite passion is making cheap guns (like H&R's), military surplus wreckers and old neglected war horses shoot up to their potential. Modern ML's back to match locks are all good for me.

piwo

10-23-2007, 08:25 PM

To put a crossbow in ANY GUN season is the height of idiocy, and when proposed to be there by compound bow shooters, the height of hypocrisy.

Much Aloha,

Tom :cool:

Then I live in the Hypocrite state of Missouri, because Crossbows are not allowed in archery season, only firearms and I have no idea WHO insisted they be there. For the record, the crossbows I see for sale in local sporting good stores don't convince me they're wrong for the reasons I outlined in my previous post, but then again, I am from Missouri. Once again, use whatever is legal in your state and do so with proficiency. :wink: :drinks:

Rattus58

10-23-2007, 11:27 PM

Then I live in the Hypocrite state of Missouri, because Crossbows are not allowed in archery season, only firearms and I have no idea WHO insisted they be there. For the record, the crossbows I see for sale in local sporting good stores don't convince me they're wrong for the reasons I outlined in my previous post, but then again, I am from Missouri. Once again, use whatever is legal in your state and do so with proficiency. :wink: :drinks:

PIWO... I live in the HYPOCRITICAL state of Hawaii... which has the most chaotic political system believable...

Crossbows got relegated to the firearms seasons in at least two states because people who wrote the rules took the comments by usually hunter education instructors relying on the Bill Wadsworth bias extended that to the stock and being shoulder fired as being more like a rifle than a bow.... inspite of looking at one first it seems... :)

Many states fell to this. Here in Hawaii, they are ILLEGAL! Yet being ILLEGAL, as a machine gun is for hunting, it is OK for the Disabled to use them..... and they did all this without going through the proper rule changes... like the bear hunt in New Jersey... not following the rules...

Aloha... :cool:

Digital Dan

10-25-2007, 01:02 PM

Not given to feel warm and fuzzy about "Special/Archery/Primitive/Muzzle Loader" seasons or similar ilk for any reason. States like them 'cause they generate more revenue. Entrepreneurs like them 'cause they get a stake in a new industry. Critters, given rational thought processes, would look at this and scratch their noggins.

Giving Florida as an example, we have a near month long archery season with few restrictions attached. Fact is that convicted felons in this state are allowed to pursue this past time although like other states they have lost a large part of their other civil rights due to the conviction. Certainly not all archers are felons but all archers get a month head start on other seasons. Because they are less primitive? I don't get it. There is nothing primitive about compound bows or inlines, nor in comparison is a flintlock primitive when compared to a genuine long bow, or spear. I do deeply resent the presence of convicted felons hunting with extremely lethal weapons on it's own merit and will likely never understand why they deserve a head start over lawful citizens, or why they have latitudes in harvest not equally shared by shooters of any type weapon.

The argument that some hunting weapons are more deadly is specious on any day. Every tool discussed in this thread so far is fully capable of killing game animals when properly utilized and equally capable of wounding animals when improperly utilized. Bows are as effective as a shotgun with buckshot, perhaps more so. BPCR's are capable of killing shots at very long ranges and the lowly .22 CB short will kill hogs dead as a stump right now, so I don't see any merit in the argument over one being "better" or more lethal. Within reasonable parameters they simply are not.

Anyway, I don't really give a hoot what you hunt with, but think the States are selling you a bill of goods in general, and costing you money in particular. I have my own opinions about various types of hunting weapons and choose which I use and don't. Each of you have the same choices and I'll no sooner try to make you choose one over the other than accept similar pressure from you. We all see the playing field differently and march to the beat of our own drummer. You may be a shooter, or a hunter....if you don't know the difference you need to figure it out. What I'd really like to see is one season for all hunters and let each choose the tool of his or her choice.

Rattus58

10-25-2007, 02:52 PM

It's called the general firearms season in most states and you can hunt by whatever method you want. I was actually unaware that they allowed folks out of prison to go hunting, they don't here in Hawaii.

There are lots of reasons to have separate seasons. You'd be happy, I'm gathering by your post, to let all go hunting with a 22? I don't quite share your reasoning.

It's clear that you have not looked at harvest data or you'd see that there are a number of reasons why archery, muzzleloader, and general seasons are separated in various areas of individual states and why in some states they have what is known as a "short range weapons" season for various areas.

As far as seasons go, this usually is because someone lobbied for the season. If you don't like it, lobby for the change to one season and I'd certainly lobby to keep guys in jail instead letting them out to go hunting.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:

Digital Dan

10-25-2007, 04:38 PM

I was actually unaware that they allowed folks out of prison to go hunting, they don't here in Hawaii.

Are Hawaiians naturally unimaginative or is it acquired?

You'd be happy, I'm gathering by your post, to let all go hunting with a 22?

What else do you gather while you're out and about? Do you raise mushrooms?

It's clear

Nope, partly cloudy with a high cirrus layer.

If you don't like it, lobby for the change to one season

If I don't are you going to hold your breath?

charger 1

10-25-2007, 04:51 PM

Why cant we all just get along

Rattus58

10-25-2007, 05:35 PM

Are Hawaiians naturally unimaginative or is it acquired?

What else do you gather while you're out and about? Do you raise mushrooms?

Nope, partly cloudy with a high cirrus layer.

If I don't are you going to hold your breath?

If I'm not mistaken, you were the one that was fretting about Felons in the field. No I'm not unimaginative, quite the contrary, and you prove my point. Mushrooms on the other hand are an acquired taste. And you haven't answered a single question. You are the one saying a 22cb is deadly on any given day... so since you used that as your example... what is an unimaginative fella stuck on a lily pad supposed to assume by your comment? You seem to think that all methods and arms are equally capable... I personally do not. You, rather than defend your statement, prefer to consider us unimaginative dolts, obviously high on cirrus... their near the ozone right?

Seems to me, that in order to solve your issues with felons, just execute them all, then they wouldn't be out hunting before you.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:

floodgate

10-25-2007, 09:06 PM

We're working to get a "David's Sling" (the kind you whirl around your head and toss a rock with) season here, but the "Slingshot" (forked stick and rubber tubing) techies are trying to horn in on it. And the "Rabbit Stick" types are feuding with both the "Atlatl" and "Returning Boomerang" guys.

floodgate

MT Gianni

10-25-2007, 11:32 PM

Rattus58

10-25-2007, 11:44 PM

:-D:-D:drinks:

Underclocked

10-26-2007, 01:29 PM

Rattus, show them your shrooms. ;)

OK, if you are going to have seasons based upon the technology of the instrument used - then it follows the instrument needs some CLEAR definition. Saying "it loads from the muzzle" is good enough for some but I think that allows TOO MUCH encroachment of technology into the sport. In that case everyone is left to draw their own "lines in the sand" so far as what devices that load from the muzzle are acceptable. My own line ends just this side of smokeless while others have big issues with ignition systems, optics, appearances, and whether or not the owner feels the fantasy in his heart.

I think we now have 20 and 30 year olds that fought the great fight and earned our current muzzleloader seasons. Rappin' Dan'l Boones. :mrgreen:

On the other end of the spectrum we have those who would allow anything that can be swung from the shoulder to be used in baseball and anything that can be shoved down a muzzle to be used in muzzleloading - so long as they don't have to deal with any oogy mess. Muzzleloading on steroids.

I'm just glad it isn't up to me to set the rules. I would likely have about 10% of all muzzleloader users trying to hit me with a roundball or a 3000 fps all copper HPBT sniper round. Because my rules would be written to bring the ends toward the center, preserving some of the historical tradition while allowing for some of the modern improvements.

But I'm not a game manager or a rule writer, so git er dun!! :drinks:

Rattus58

10-26-2007, 03:09 PM

I've gottem here in my hand no less..... :)

Personally, I don't care what one uses. I feel some things go techy fer the sake of techy.. take cva for example..

However me an me uncle diverse on one point only... if it is a muzzleloader, it loads from the muzzle, it is a muzzleloader... therefore, if it loads from the muzzle it is a muzzle loader... regardless of powder. If muzzleloaders were meant to be full bore bullets, great for me... if meant to be traditional sidelock... I'm ok with that as well. If it is a BLACK POWDER season, as long as I can get black, black is ok for me too.

States probably should evaluate what they really meant by black powder or muzzleloader seasons in the first place and were they meant to morph with technology as long as the basics remained.... "load from the muzzle".

Aloha.. :cool: :drinks:

Underclocked

10-26-2007, 09:54 PM

You only disagree because you have prostituted yourself and used that evil stuff in experiments I won't divulge. ;)

Rattus58

10-27-2007, 03:44 AM

Hehehe.... You have to receive funds to be a prostitute...... I did it for free.... I'm just a ****..... :grin: :grin:

35remington

10-27-2007, 02:40 PM

At some point in the "evolution" of a muzzleloader, when it becomes far more similar to a cartridge firing high velocity rifle than what was present and allowed in primitive seasons 20-30 years ago, it's okay to say they are not the same as what went before.

We chafe at the restrictions of iron sights and lower velocity - so we bypass them in the interest of increasing the odds of a kill. Instead of learning to optimize the ignition of the sidelocks we have, we install a new ignition system, up to and including electronics. We now no more think of iron sights on a muzzleloader than we would think about using them on a .300 Weatherby. We aren't interested in "inefficient" bullet shapes like roundballs and heavy, blunt conicals, so we go to sabots and superlight bullets for the bore size to flatten trajectory (ironically, whether they kill better than the original projectiles is very, very questionable when both are used within their range).

I agree with those that figure we've now reinvented the .30-30.

Just don't say you do it for the increased "challenge" and I won't care what you shoot. I guarantee, though, that I have a lot more fun shooting a gun with a bit of history than a modern contraption.

A Daytona stock car sporting a 750 hp carbureted V-8 with rear wheel drive and a stick shift don't have a lot in common with the automatic front wheel drive V6 family sedan they're "based" on.

I guess my point is: Why don't we have longer regular seasons where you can allow any weapon and stop giving lip service to "muzzleloading" special seasons?

If that was the case watch the modern muzzleloader shooter drop his scoped electronic wonder iron like a hot potato and go back to his 7 mag. It ain't about what you shoot for most; it's about getting a deer the easiest way possible.

charger 1

10-27-2007, 03:08 PM

Well you guys have done it now. I went and bought that PH 58 muketoon, just cause I could never look at my savage the same way again. I somehow look at her like a dirty ol ***** now...........NOT But it felt good to buy something else anyhoo:-D

Rattus58

10-27-2007, 03:48 PM

At some point in the "evolution" of a muzzleloader, when it becomes far more similar to a cartridge firing high velocity rifle than what was present and allowed in primitive seasons 20-30 years ago, it's okay to say they are not the same as what went before. How so? If it evolves away from being loaded from the muzzle, then that's evolution. Everything else is the same... powder in barrel, bullet in the barrel, outside ignition source separated from the powder.

We chafe at the restrictions of iron sights and lower velocity - so we bypass them in the interest of increasing the odds of a kill. Instead of learning to optimize the ignition of the sidelocks we have, we install a new ignition system, up to and including electronics. We now no more think of iron sights on a muzzleloader than we would think about using them on a .300 Weatherby.You're not paying attention. People use scopes because they can't see. That is true of a side lock, early inline, current inline. Tell me that you can even get sights on many rifles today? I know of NO muzzleloader sold without iron sights.

We aren't interested in "inefficient" bullet shapes like roundballs and heavy, blunt conicals, so we go to sabots and superlight bullets for the bore size to flatten trajectory (ironically, whether they kill better than the original projectiles is very, very questionable when both are used within their range). Really? Why do you think we are here then? Marketing is what drives most peoples choices of bullets, not some "desire" to have the flattest shooting bullet. Companies like Hornady, Barnes, and others take advantage of their own current offerings and tailor them to the muzzleloader market. That is America my friend.

I agree with those that figure we've now reinvented the .30-30. Really... maybe a single shot 30-30? How many shots can you get out of a T/C contender in a minute? How many out of a Ruger #1, if you'd chamber the thing for a 30-30? So... let's keep this real ok?

Just don't say you do it for the increased "challenge" and I won't care what you shoot. I guarantee, though, that I have a lot more fun shooting a gun with a bit of history than a modern contraption. Regardless of your reason, if you use a muzzleloader, you are willing to accept more of a challenge in your hunt. Whether inline or sidelock, its the choice of powder and projectile and if both use the same loads, performance is also going to be quite similar.

A Daytona stock car sporting a 750 hp carbureted V-8 with rear wheel drive and a stick shift don't have a lot in common with the automatic front wheel drive V6 family sedan they're "based" on. I hate to really break this to you, but you are not into racing I can see. Some of those family sedans have easily 700 hp themselves. However, that is not the point, what is the point is the shooters choice of bullet and powder and although no-one to my knowledge has yet made a sidelock that some amount of smokeless can be used, it is not by self limiting.

I guess my point is: Why don't we have longer regular seasons where you can allow any weapon and stop giving lip service to "muzzleloading" special seasons? Well we keep having these arguments about it, that is what is going to come. Already here in Hawaii they talk of a single shot rifle season... is writing on the wall?

If that was the case watch the modern muzzleloader shooter drop his scoped electronic wonder iron like a hot potato and go back to his 7 mag. It ain't about what you shoot for most; it's about getting a deer the easiest way possible. Hmmmm.... well it wouldn't be for me, and many thousands of others as well, but certainly I agree with you that most muzzleloader shooters do it for the opportunity. I don't know how to read the archers and in a lot of places, you're not going to be using your 7MM.

Well anyway this is my take on it... :)

Much aloha.... :cool: :drinks:

Underclocked

10-27-2007, 07:28 PM

Many would be very surprised at how many inline users would NOT stop using their muzzleloaders. I wouldn't and I hunt in every available deer season with muzzleloaders. I only hunt with an inline muzzleloader. That is not because I have to, it's because I want to... and I'm not alone, not by a long shot.

Ok, the above paragraph contains a slight error. This year I'm only going to take one deer at most even though I could legally take one buck plus antlerless deer until my wallet was empty at $7 a pop. I happen to have a very different opinion of the status of the local deer herd than do the managers.

Haven't shot either of my two centerfires in several years - I hope they still work. :)

35remington

10-27-2007, 07:51 PM

As I am sure you are no doubt aware, several states have now legislated restrictions on more "modern" muzzleloaders and the projectiles they fire. No magnification on sighting devices (Nebraska) limitations on the shape of projectiles (Colorado). I could go on.

Which means some of your points are not as self evident as you believe them to be. Highlight my statements all you wish; at some point evolution becomes transformation into something else.

Quoting you:
"Everything else is the same... powder in barrel...."

Ahem. H4227 is the same as Goex 2F? Really? When did smokeless and black become "the same?"

Rattus, you sound a bit worried; you're quite vociferous. And you're making some weird statements with your zealotry.

I'll let it go now; I've said my piece.