Factory ammo for Winchester 1885 45-70

[belaw]

I just purchased a current production Winchester (Miroku) 1885 with 28" barrel; it's the "Traditional Hunter" model, not the BPCR. I've read that these rifles can be a bit finicky to feed due to the SAAMI spec'd chamber with almost no throat, shallow rifling and 1:20 twist.

Although I ultimately plan to roll my own I would like to use the rifle for deer this season, which has me looking at factory ammo. I have read that these rifles don't like the "light" 300 grain loads (I assume the rate of twist is wrong?). I've also read that the Winchester 375 grain load won't chamber because of the short throat. And these statements have to be true, because I read them on the internet- right? Of course the 300 and Winchester 375 gr. loads are what I see on the shelves locally (along with the 325 Hornady Leverevolution).

I'm hoping that someone who has experience shooting factory .45-70 loads in this rifle can make a recommendation for a factory load that works well with these rifles. Again, I'm looking for a hunting load; max shot will be no more than 150 yds, probably less.



Thanks,
Brian

[EDG]

Due to the cost of 45-70 ammo and the fact that this is a cast bullet site I doubt that you will get much input from anyone that shoots factory ammo - if any.
I probably have more 45-70s than 99% of the shooters here. I have owned one or more since 1972 and I have never shot a round of factory ammo.
No one can really tell you what will happen with your rifle and store bought ammo.
With a cheap press and a set of dies you can get started in just a few hours if you have the brass, primers and powder. You want a hunting load. Anything you can shoot out of a 45-70 is lethal at 100 yard if you can steer it on to a target. You do not have to start with 1" groups either. Pretend it is a very large 22 rim fire and be happy with 3" groups.
In fact if it starts off less than stellar it is better for you, you will get to learn something.
If you get perfect results right off the bat you will just own another deer killing rifle and anything can kill a deer.
I would say that more 45-70 rounds are fired for fun that are ever fired for hunting.
I hope you plan to shoot for fun. It takes cast bullets to make it economical enough to enjoy.

[NSB]

EDG, there are people on here who shoot J bullets out of their Win 1885 High Wall. I'm one of them so you can't speak for me. I've shot both Remington 300 and 405 factory loads and both shoot well. The 405 grain will shoot MOA off a good rest with a scope. All my j bullet reloads will do very well also with several loads shooting moa. I have not had good luck, yet, with any cast bullets out of this gun or my Win 1886 lever gun in 45-70. I can get 2.5-3" groups with some loads but I'm struggling with just about every bullet and powder combo I've tried. I'd guess it's good enough for deer hunting with those groups but I'll stick with jacketed bullets until I find something better than what I'm getting. FYI...I've owned several Pedersoli Sharps and High Walls and they will easily shoot great groups with cast bullets. Different rifling and chamber makes a difference. I really like the Win High Wall and will probably just use jacketed for hunting and play with cast for fun. PM me if you'd like some info on reloads if you reload. Good luck and have fun with it.

[EDG]

NSB
I have shot my share of jacketed bullets out of 45-70s and not many people do it in any volume because of the expense of the factory ammo and bullets.
Sorry you cannot get CBs to shoot out of your rifle but it is not likely the rifle - it is likely your bullets, loading technique, powder charge and velocities. You say nothing about what bullets or loads you have tried. You might ask some others here what bullets they have used with good results. The RCBS 300 grn GC works well for a light bullet. Try it with a suitable load of SR4759 - but not a case full something shooting it at 2000 fps.
On the other hand some old Lyman 457125 bullets shoot well in nothing because the nose of the bullet is about .010 smaller than the land diameter. Later Lyman 457125 molds cast bullets with larger noses that shoot better.
I have a tapered Brooks mold that casts a tapered bullet from .454 up to .462 and it shoots well in the 1885 BPCRS, standard model 1885s, Pedersolis and Rugers.

[bigted]

this is a CAST forum BUT ... ill get into the jaxeted for you in reloads and factory for your Win. Hunter 1885 ... have one of them myself and it is a pretty and useful rifle when fed the rite stuff.

I have shot mine with the sights it came with being the wrist mounted Lyman type tang sight ... the buckhorn rear barrel sight ... the bead type front sight. the bases I bought were Leopold as well as the rings ... with a Leopold 3 - 9x scope and a sunshade on the front it didn't look too bad. it now wears my Leatherwood Malcolm style scope sight ... which not only works well but looks very period like in appearance. the very best looking sights I have shot on this rifle are a full buckhorn rear from Marbles along with a blade front sight from C-Sharps.

loads consist of;

factory ... Remington 300 and 405 grain loads ... they both perform well in this rifle bringing closer to the 2 inch groups.

hand loads consist of;

RL-7 = 34 grains behind 350 to 500 grain cast boolits in rem cases at 2.068 inch long ... these will do wonderful groups at 100 yds.
IMR3031 = 38 to 53 grains behind 300 to 405 grain factory bullets and the same behind the same 350 to 500 grain boolits both plain base and gas check designs ... same cases ... this is my favorite powder for smokless in 45-70 and net me very good groups with my .460400 mold from buff arms being the best in this rifle and my Ruger #1. the #1 will put three into around .750 inch at 65 yds almost every time I wanna shoot very careful bench style shots.
GOEX Cartridge black powder = from 60 to 75 grains powder and behind the same 350 to 500 grain greasers will not do so well in this rifle so far. the Lyman 457125 boolit does the best in accuracy area with this rifle in that if loaded to have the first grease groove clear out of the case so the front driver kisses the rifling ... this combo does around the 2 inch groups at 100 ... sometimes and I still haven't figured out why the on n off thing but the fun goes on.

I would consider "unique" powder to be the ultimate powder for foolin round in any 45-70 ... to include the Winchester 1885. this is THE BEST powder to play with doing very well in the 350 to 420 grain boolits as well as all the jaxeted bullets... to say nuttin of the ball loads with this powder for short range and super quiet loads that recoil nuttin at all.

main thing is to keep havin fun with yer rifle and askin questions to get round the problems encountered.

also WELCOME TO THE FORUM !!! this is packed with great info just for the askin.

this is a very beautiful and well put together rifle however in function I have to give my #1 the nod as it devours everything I feed it well and does so with seemingly un-erring accuracy. ho hum ... this is not a Ruger post so I will desist and stop here. if you need further details on handloads I would be willing to share more details of these for you in further posts.

[NSB]

NSB
I have shot my share of jacketed bullets out of 45-70s and not many people do it in any volume because of the expense of the factory ammo and bullets.
Sorry you cannot get CBs to shoot out of your rifle but it is not likely the rifle - it is likely your bullets, loading technique, powder charge and velocities. You say nothing about what bullets or loads you have tried. You might ask some others here what bullets they have used with good results. The RCBS 300 grn GC works well for a light bullet. Try it with a suitable load of SR4759 - but not a case full something shooting it at 2000 fps.
On the other hand some old Lyman 457125 bullets shoot well in nothing because the nose of the bullet is about .010 smaller than the land diameter. Later Lyman 457125 molds cast bullets with larger noses that shoot better.
I have a tapered Brooks mold that casts a tapered bullet from .454 up to .462 and it shoots well in the 1885 BPCRS, standard model 1885s, Pedersolis and Rugers.

I tried to answer the OP, which specifically asked about jacketed bullets now, for hunting season. I'm tried not to hijack the thread with other subject matter and/or go into cast bullets and loading techniques. He asked about jacketed bullets so he could get his gun up and running for hunting season. I'd like the post to stay on HIS subject matter and not get lost. Thanks.

[oldred]

I won't comment on the reloading subject except to say that the OP did mention loading his own just not yet and for now he wants to use factory rounds. The Remington 405 grain loads have shot really well from just about everything I have shot them in and should be an excellent choice for that 1885 if factory loads are what you want. These are mild loads that are pleasant to shoot and out to the ranges you mention they will drop anything in North America but heavier loadings are available from places like Buffalo Bore if your wallet can stand the sticker price of these rounds.

[gewehrfreund]

I just purchased a current production Winchester (Miroku) 1885 with 28" barrel; it's the "Traditional Hunter" model, not the BPCR. I've read that these rifles can be a bit finicky to feed due to the SAAMI spec'd chamber with almost no throat, shallow rifling and 1:20 twist.

Although I ultimately plan to roll my own I would like to use the rifle for deer this season, which has me looking at factory ammo. I have read that these rifles don't like the "light" 300 grain loads (I assume the rate of twist is wrong?). I've also read that the Winchester 375 grain load won't chamber because of the short throat. And these statements have to be true, because I read them on the internet- right? Of course the 300 and Winchester 375 gr. loads are what I see on the shelves locally (along with the 325 Hornady Leverevolution).

I'm hoping that someone who has experience shooting factory .45-70 loads in this rifle can make a recommendation for a factory load that works well with these rifles. Again, I'm looking for a hunting load; max shot will be no more than 150 yds, probably less.



Thanks,
Brian

I don't have one of the newer Highwalls in 45-70, but I do have a newer Ruger No.1 in 454-70 that also has virtually no throat. In my experience, I'd stick with the 405 gr. factory loads from Remington or Winchester for your hunting this year. They are fairly mild but accurate and will certainly get the job done on any deer in North America if hit in the vital zone.
In fact, I reload to the factory 405gr specs using Win. or Rem. bullets and W630, which was what Winchester used to use in their factory ammo. Also, it's pretty hard to go wrong with Reloder 7 once you start making your own ammunition. Good luck.

[belaw]

Thanks for all of the advice. I realize that this is a cast forum, but there also appears to be a tremendous amount of 45-70 knowledge that I wanted to tap into.

I do plan to reload for this rifle, and would love nothing more than to find a load that would shoot a 405 hard cast at ~1350 fps with good accuracy. Based on what I've read its going to take some time to find the right combination of components to get this rifle to shoot cast loads accurately. But the real short term problem is that I don't have brass or any of the powders associated with the 45-70 and don't know when I will be able to find them. I really want to find some H4895 to work with as it seems to provide a good case fill even in factory equivalent loads.

I did find 2 boxes of Remington 405 gr. loads at a local shop and once I got over the sticker shock I grabbed them. I'm good to go for this deer season, but the $1.75 per pull of the trigger price tag is about all the motivation I need to start reloading for my new rifle!

[EDG]

Belaw - that is why I mentioned the price of factory rounds.
Don't be fooled about all of the short throat difficult accuracy problem tales. Nearly all 45-70s marketed and sold in the US have a SAAMI throat and chamber including the excellent Browning BPCR rifles that are known for terrific accuracy.
Some may like hard cast bullets but I find them only fit for plinking. The 45-70 just does need that kind of alloy at 1350 fps.
There was one shooter here that was determined that he could shoot hard cast bullets with relatively heavy loads and get MOA accuracy. It was because he had a trajectory goal that he would not compromise on. Despite what people told him he tried a lot of a better known hard cast bullets with predictable results. Rather than try a cast bullet combination with a good chance of accuracy he eventually reverted to jacketed bullets and has not posted much since.

I would advise you to stay away from the Hornady lever loads with the pointy soft tips. The Hornady brass used for those loads is a good bit shorter than normal and almost everyone avoids it like the plague.

[bigted]

that "traditional hunter" model is a nice rifle and it will need different boolits to be accurate then the BPCR rifles with their deeper rifling. the hunter is a shallow rifling gun and is sometimes finicky as to what it desires to shoot. should you desire to begin loading this rifle then a good plan may be to purchase cast boolits from "Buffalo Arms" in Idaho which carries cast boolits that are of different diameters and weights and already lubed with SPG lube. as for those "hard bullets" I would stay away from them as the performance on animules is iffy and not needed as is stated in a post above. the soft [20-1] or even [30-1] is everything they are talked up about. they will flatten and remain weight like a champ. they also were what the ODG's used for bullets. hard cast may be awrite for pistol loads but no place in a hunting rifle where killing an animule with quick results and confidence is paramount.

glad you are covered with some factory loads for this hunting year. I also second the idea of avoiding like the plague those "Lever-Lution" loads. I received some of those shorty's in a trade and they threw me for a loop till I figured out what I had.

not a huge mystery to load for the 45-70 as everything is readily available and easy to get for it. lots of advise on the loading procedures and different systems here.

again welcome and good luck on the hunt this year.

[oldred]

Thanks for all of the advice. I realize that this is a cast forum, but there also appears to be a tremendous amount of 45-70 knowledge that I wanted to tap into.

But the real short term problem is that I don't have brass or any of the powders associated with the 45-70 and don't know when I will be able to find them. I really want to find some H4895 to work with as it seems to provide a good case fill even in factory equivalent loads.


First let me say welcome to the group! It may be a cast forum but you were not in any way, shape or form out of line with your questions and you will find many more asking for similar info.

H4895 is a really good choice and while I use both the H4895 and Varget in my 45/70 (also in my 45/90) I prefer Varget as it seems to be a bit more consistent, but both are so close it may be more my imagination than actual performance. Both loads are case filling with the 405 grain Remington J words I shoot sometimes (BTW, Midway actually has those things in stock right now!) and the max load for both (lever action data) is a compressed load with H4895 yielding only 26,500 CUP and the Varget load only 25,000 CUP with both in the 1800 FPS range, not a bad load at all!

[groovy mike]

Sticker shock indeed! Stopped at 3 gunshops yesterday. Found 2 brands of 45-70 for sale at $39.99 plus tax per box of 20 - OUCH!
I just put 60 rds of my 405 grain cast loads down range last night, so time to get teh casting pot out this weekend. Moose season approacheth!

[oldred]

Yep ammo prices are just plain INSANE! Why is that? Because people are buying the danged things! There's no logical reason ammo should cost what it does when we consider the ammo loaders pay a lot less for components than we do and since there's just no way business overhead rose as fast as ammo prices it's obviously a simple case of them charging what the market is willing to accept, I for one will shoot BBs before I pay those extortionist prices and I hope others will buck up and do the same!

[earshot]

When you decide to cast your own, I can really recommend the RCBS .458 405gr with GC. That bullet shoots really well in my Browning 1885. (with Vihtavuori N140).

[rhead]

Belaw: I was like you i had bought the dang thing and I was going to shoot it. I bought a box of factory and tried it out. six years and several hundred rounds later along with a Ruger # 1 in 45 70 I still have four of the factory loads.

[starmac]

From what I have seen factory loads here are over 50 bucks a box of twenty. lol I am thinking a boolit trap might be in the making for those big old boolits. lol

[oldred]

From what I have seen factory loads here are over 50 bucks a box of twenty. lol I am thinking a boolit trap might be in the making for those big old boolits. lol

For all I care they can go up to $150 for a box of 20 and I will still buy the same as I do now, none! People are doing this to themselves, if they would not buy at the stupidly over-inflated prices then prices would come down but even at $50 to $70 a box most places are "sold out"!

[fouronesix]

belaw,

Until you get set up to reload you might try some Remington 405 grain Jbullet factory ammo. The ballistics will give you what you need, it is not dinoblaster ammo, it is rated for trapdoor type rifles and it is generally very accurate. If it works well for you, then it is easy enough to load very similar ammo in the future- using a 400-405 grain cast or Jbullet with correct powders. For the Jbullet loads- I think 3031 or 4198 should come close to duplicating the factory Remington load. For cast loads- 4759 or 5744 should likewise do very well.

If you can't find them locally, I just saw that Cabelas has the 405 Rem ammo in stock for about $42/box.

[oldred]

I think he is gone, this thread started off a bit out-of-kilter and I don't think he felt too welcome.

[fouronesix]

Oh well, can't really blame him. He asks a fairly simple question about what he can do to get started (maybe for an upcoming hunt) or before he gets set up to reload or cast and is immediately overwhelmed with "cast only" and "reloading only" graduate level advice.

[oldgeezershooter]

For all I care they can go up to $150 for a box of 20 and I will still buy the same as I do now, none! People are doing this to themselves, if they would not buy at the stupidly over-inflated prices then prices would come down but even at $50 to $70 a box most places are "sold out"!
When ammo is that pricey, it gives one incentive to become a good shot!
I once shot a 460 Weatherby and told my buddy that if I owned one, I would be the best shot in the world!

[Lead Fred]

Sorry dude, I cant help ya.
Ive never shot a factory round out of any of the 45/70s I own, or have owned.

My cast boolits do everything I would ever want to do.

Let me tell you how I came by my 2002 guide gun.
The dude that bought it fired 8 rounds, then sold it because it kicked to much.
I looked at the factory single shot ammo, and knew right off why sold it.

I took them all a part, burnt the unknown powder, gave the 400gr bullets away
filled the with reloader 7, (34gr) and stuff a Ranch Dog425 FN boolit a top of the cases.

Stored them away with the rest of my stash

[irishtoo]

when i bought my winchester 1885, i bought r-p factory loads to get started. the cost was appox $2.20 a pop. i will be reloading with blackpowder and the rough cost after startup will be appox .25 to .30 cents per pop. lee equipment was $300, i have some things to cast for my flintlocks.

[oldred]

Irish I can understand someone buying a box of this grossly overpriced ammo to go with a new rifle they don't yet have loading gear for, I mean who wants to buy a new rifle and not get to shoot it immediately! :bigsmyl2: What I can't understand is the people who buy this gold plated stuff and just leave the cases lying on the ground at the range or where ever it is they shoot and I know people who do just that! I had one guy who came by my place about once a week to shoot his Encore on my little make-shift range, also in 45/70, and he would just leave his brass where it fell (much to my delight!). He sold the thing complaining about how much it was costing to shoot and bought an AK for the cheaper ammo but I notice he doesn't shoot that very much either. Of course there is the other group who buy a box of ammo to hunt with and probably don't fire a half dozen rounds a years, my Father-in Law being a prime example, but these people are not really shooters IMO and could not possibly account for all that pricy stuff being "sold out" just about everywhere! It all boils down to the fact too many people will just gripe and complain about being ripped off but then will still whip out the wallet and allow themselves to be taken by the seller instead of telling them to stick it "you know where"! If enough people did this ammo prices would become more affordable, certainly not where it was ten years ago same as any thing else, but at least it would fall into line with average inflation driven pricing on other products.

[irishtoo]

part of the throught process was to get the brass to reload. i wish i was at the range when someone left 45-70 brass on the ground!