Tes4:Hubel-SuperBlazing-Dixie Inspired loads

[cpileri]

Test 4 of Greg-Turbo-Tommygirl-FH-SuperBlazing-Dixie-inspired loads in NEF USH

I really should entitle this thread as above, since I took so much from these folks. I don’t think the title bar will allow me all those characters, though. In any case, if you gave me direct info or inspiration in any form, THANK YOU!

Note: I read that the tri-ball loads can be fired in rifled barrels and maintain tight groups; so whether I test them in the USH (rifled) or a smoothbore 870 will be noted in the text. 870 is basically factory, w 3” chambered 20” smoothbore barrel w rifle sights, and has the old style folding Knoxx-recoil reducing stock. That’s it.

Date: Sat 17 Aug 014
Elevation: 1204ft
Temp: 99degF
Wind: 5-6mph
Humidity: 49%
Platform: NEF/H&R Ultra Slug Hunter, Bore: .731, lands .721”; chamber reamed to 3.5”, 24” fully rifled bbl, forcing cone polished and smoothly blends w beginning of rifling, (chamber cast pics available) stock and forearm weighted: balance point ~1inch forward of trigger guard, total weight 12+lbs w/ scope, hammer w/ offset spur installed
Scope: el cheapo BSA 1x25 red dot w 3 MOA dot (have Bushnell TRS-25 to install, but haven’t yet)
Target distance: 30 yds (laser verified) unless otherwise specified

Notes: this weighted, heavy, gun was fired from seated “double gun” position (hand under forearm and resting hand/wrist on stand, gun to shoulder, body leaning in; pulling snugly both down and into shoulder. No shooting jacket nor shoulder pad though- too hot outside!) Buttstock has really squishy pad on it (*). As before, muzzle flipped a lot and stock slipped down off shoulder w each shot of heavy loads; but still absolutely no discomfort at all.

(*)this pad: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00081Q7E4/ref=oh_details_o04_s01_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1


79642


Load: 375gr “green” jacketed slug
Hull: Fio 3.5”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 40gr Longshot
Wad column: X12X, felt/cork fillers, .17 NC under slug
Load: 375gr jacketed aluminum core slug .729 diam, rolled in HBN
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold
Notes: this powder charge gives 1460fps and 10.8kpsi under a 1&3/8oz Thunderbolt slug. They shot SPOT ON. A little light for my tastes, and I think i wil chronograph them next to see what i am dealing with and any future they may have as hunting loads. TX whitetails are small, so 375gr is more than adequate.

[cpileri]

79643


Load: 1043 lead heavy
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 54gr IMR 4227
Wad column: X12X, 3/32 cork, .17HCW
Load: 1043gr hard cast lead slug- 2 rolled in HBN, 2 lubed w LBT soft blue in grooves
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: this is a continuation of the previous 1043gr loads. Since the 50gr charge burned cleaner and was more accurate than the 48gr charge; I wanted to try a bit more. This load generates ~10.5kpsi and ~1050 fps from a 24” rifled test barrel.
They shot into a 2 inch group, and left a little but not much unburned powder in the bore. I LOVE these!
Also, keep in mind, i am shooting using a cheapie scope, with a red dot on an orange target, on a bright Texas day. So i cant even see the dot once it is over theorange tape. A better scope set up, and accuracy might be even better.

[cpileri]

79644

Load: Hubel sabot
Hull: fio 3.5”
Primer: fio 616
Powder & Charge: 55gr A.Steel
Wad column: x12x over powder, then 1/8” cork, ¼”felt, ¼”cork, then .17nc under sabot
Load: Hubel super sabot w ~440gr .578 minie ball lead conical, sabot rolled in hbn and cut the little nubbin off the bottom of the sabot
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold
Notes: I had high hopes for this load from rifled barrel! and I was not disappointed. A little more tweaking, and the Hubel sabot is a winner in my book. Although it looks huge in this picture, that is abt a 2&1/2" group. Mr. Hubel reports these generate less than 15kpsi. So are safe for all shotguns w muzzle diameters .91" or greater.

[cpileri]

79645

Here is the sabot. Opened perfectly, collected them all at abt 25yds from firing line.

[cpileri]

79646

This target is an aggregation of a coupleloads. One, using the CSD wad-slug, had a flier; it actually released the slug and sent it high and right. I will talk w the creator of them and see if he recommends less velocity, some epoxy to keep then non-discarding, or something else. All the others shot into the nice group you see. Loads were:

Load: 775 lead slug
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 45gr Lil’Gun
Wad column: X12X over powder, felt filler wad, .170 hard card wad under slug
Load: 775gr .730 lead slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: shot well and tight. Load data= 9.3-9.5kpsi and 1250-1290fps from 24" rifled barrel.

and
Load: 760gr lead slug
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 45gr Lil’Gun
Wad column: X12X, Fiber fill, HCW
Load: 760gr .730 lead slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: mixed some roll, some fold
Notes: Load data= 9.3-9.5kpsi and 1250-1290fps from 24" rifled barrel.


Load: HP-CSD wad
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 50gr Lil’gun
Wad column: CSD wad, w fiber fillers in wad under slug- previously assembled by their creator (not me)
Load: 595gr lead slug in wad assembly (670gr total weight w wad assembly)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: flier as described above. This load using 51.8gr of Lil'gun would generate 14.8kpsi and 1650fps, so this load is less than that. making it safe for virtually all shotguns.

[cpileri]

79647
Load: .610 tri-ball (~335gr each ball)
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 27gr Blue Dot
Wad column: TUPRW123 (orange) dusted w 0.5micron hexagonal Boron Nitride
Load: 3x.610” hardcast lead balls w no space btw bottom ball and base of wad cup, no space btw balls; and Precision Reloading teflon buffer (2.2cc) tapped/vibrated in around balls
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear OS disc w roll crimp
Platform:
Notes: I know the tri-Ball loads specify 28-29gr Blue Dot, but since I had the heavier .61 cal (335gr) balls, I decided to lower it. The total weight of the bigger 335gr balls with buffer is 1020gr. There are 2&1/4 oz lead shot loads published that go to 34gr blue Dot, so I think 27gr is safe. These shot into what looks huge since my camera was so close to the target, but is actually spreads ranging from 3-in to 5-in at 30 yds. Another great thing is that these were from a RIFLED bore! makes thus USH even more versatile. i know it'll never be a true "shot" gun with lots of little balls, but for these big ones lined up the way they are in the tri-ball load; it seemed to work with acceptable short range hunting patterns.

I also shot some 3.5" loads (no picture, but target was qualitatively similar); and had some points to discuss as posted below. here is the 3.5"load, though:


Load: 3.5” tri-ball
Hull: CHEDDITE 3.5”
Primer: Fed 209A
Powder & Charge: 31gr A.Steel
Wad column: Precision Reloading orange TUPR123 wad slit all the way down, rolled in hbn powder, 20ga Nitro Card smooshed into bottom of cup before the first ball,
Load: 3x.610” hardcast lead balls w no space btw bottom ball and base of wad cup, no space btw balls; and Precision Reloading teflon buffer (2.2cc) tapped/vibrated in around balls
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear overshot disc, roll
Notes: I dropped the recommended charge by a grain since my balls are heavier (335gr ea vs 313gr ea for 60cal). I Don’t know why the Blue Dot charge cant be used here, but Mr. Gates stressed “EXACT” when listing the 3.5” Tri-ball load.
Even so, i was not "exact" since I used a clear plastic overshot disc and not a 1/8" cork wad nor nitro card and i dropped the charge by 1 grain of powder.

Not sure of the pressures of Dixie tri-ball loads, but velocity of 3x.600balls w 32gr of A.Steel is 1100fps, so this is a bit less (heavier payload and less powder). Still bucked like a wild pony!

[cpileri]

7964879649

OK, i'd like some wad analysis if you can help me.
Notice how the TUPR wads seemed to buckle and curl on one or two of the petals from some of the shots (not all, one shown is perfect). Also notice that on the buckled petals, it appears to have a worn area where no rifling engagement is evident. Then behind that area, rifleing grooved are present. Could it be that the petals crived in when hitting the forcing cone, stayed curled in down the bore (so the rest of the wad engaged the rifling)?
Any help appreciated!
note that they all shot well, but consistency is going to be key for these. So i am looking to make the loads as perfect as i can.
Thanks in advance.
C-

[cpileri]

7965079651
Here is where the CSD wad-slug rleeased the slug and went wild. The base is totally blown, big hole in it. Slug not recovered.
Not quite sure what to make of this.
Any help?
C-

[cpileri]

7965279653
Here is a pic of the 3.5" tri-ball hull and .610 balls; with primer backing out of the hull. No extractor marks nor other pressure signs. This hull was FOLD crimped as noted, the other .610 tri-balls were roll crimped and showed no problems- if this is a problem at all. I am tempted to call this the MAX, and move it to a federal hull with no changes.
What do you all think?

The next pic is of a couple recovered tri-balls. One hit hard packed texas rock and dirt and you can see that scrape mark, but you can also see the concave imprint of an adjacent ball on it. I think i will measure the widest diameter and see if the ball upset and deformation makes it so wide as to cause increased sidewall pressure-exactly what the hardcast tri-balls are trying to AVOID!
Also see the dimpled imprint of the PR buffer on the surface fo the formerly super smoothe balls.
That pictured ball that is still round was found buried abt 2 inches inside a living Mesquite tree. It is a very hard ball! Need more of these, too!

Hope you all enjoyed!
C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Wow, love it, " The world's greatest artist was too once a beginner "
We the Elite Musketeer's are proud of you for standing up to your reputation for being Elite ! ! !

I like #5 post, what load did you use here?
Thank you, Brother.

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.

Best regards,
Ajay
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[cpileri]

Hi Ajay!
The load I used in post 5 was a combo if 3 loads. I always post a sample target, that clearly shows the trend/group; then finish shooting. otherwise you'd get a picture of a torn up target that means nothing to anyone.

So this target has about 2 shots from each of the 3 listed loads, with the one flier from the 16ga-slug-in-CSD-wad as noted in the text, seen high and right in the picture. All other csd wad loads, and all the full bore lead slugs shot tight into that small group- really tearing up the target.

i have another similar, pressure tested load that i need slugs for: its an 880gr hardcast fullbore slug, over 65gr IMR 4759; for 16.8kpsi and 1550fps that would be out in "barely-from-H_ll" territory, and safe only in bull barrels and strong actions like the NEF USH or the Savage 210/212.

is that the info you wanted?

let me know if I missed your question.
C-

[hubel458]

We had other guy on Shotgunworld with tight barrel, Abolt
with wide lands in the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with
our sabot and Alliant Steel and one type of slug. It would twist up the
sabot petals. All my guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked
fine with Steel as well as 4759. Petals open perfect.

The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and the
lands over twice as wide as the NEF. He went to different Minie
slug and 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group,
I told him go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.

That barrel is like a lot of EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on
barrels in many slug guns, and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy
across the board in sabot shooting--Takes work..Ed

[cpileri]

Thanks, Ed!
Does that fellow have pressure data for the 78-79-82gr of 4759 load? reason I ask is because I think for all future posts I will add a new characteristic, Power Category. Basically, in the interest of safety I will detail the pressure and velocity if known and categorize the load as:
“normal” (safe in all MODERN shotguns in good working condition, under 13.5kpsi w typical shotgun pressure curve),
“Blazing” (safe in modern shotguns in good working order with muzzle thickness minimum .91”, under 13.5kpsi but longer pressure curve),
“barely From H_ll” (safe in USH and other shotguns with breech 1.2” diameter and muzzle minimum 1” diameter in good working condition. From 13.5-16.5kpsi AND longer pressure curve),
and
“FH” or “from H_ll” (safe only in highly modified Mauser/rolling block mega-strong actions w custom heavy barrels etc as in ‘you would know if you have one’-strength guns. From 16.5kpsi up to 25kpsi and UPWARDS. Don’t expect too many of these).

C-

[cpileri]

Please hope this isn't too disappointing: but no pigs were harvested during these tests.
I knwo I planned to do so, but we barely saw any hog sign (i.e. poop) let alone any pigs. Even the stinkiest bait didnt draw them out.
I would have loved to post how some of these worked on a tough animal. But alas...

In fact, the only one who got any animal at all was a kid who took a few rabbits w a 410. maybe I should work on a "Blazing-Dixie-410-FH"? WOuldnt be much left of a bunny, though.

Maybe next time.
C-

p.s. any learned analysis of the recovered wads above?

[OnHoPr]

?Maybe on the TURP wads, the top of the pedals got memory folded inside while loaded in the hull and no pressure along the bearing surface of the of the bore. Then when just at exit the pedals started to open up from air pressure and as the base of the wad cleared the barrel, the flaming hot gases gave the brunt of their heat to the top of the pedals which was at that time would have been more on an angle to receive the flames of the blast. An assuming theory.

[cpileri]

Well, so far its the going theory!
I think the folded-during-crimping has merit, for sure.
C-

[hubel458]

What was happening to sabot petals in Abolt barrel, was the extra tight fit and wide lands
were twisting petals. They\ wide petals were not cutting into the sabot like in NEF/Sav barrels.
The twist effect of rifling was on the surface of petals, twisting them. It was not getting
good hold on the sabot body. The 4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get
its spin started up to speed with the wide land rifling. With narrow grooves.
It is just the opposite of way NEF/Sav 12ga are done.
When I roll crimp sabots I do it hard and never bent petals, No it is
difference in the rifling and tightness. High density polyethelene
is very hard and strong and it don't bend real easy in sabot .Maybe bend
in thin wadcup like you showed above.

His pressure with 78-80gr is very moderate less than 12,000 psi.
Anything below 90gr and 730gr hard slug is less than Armbrust's lab test of
the same at 14,700 psi. And plastic sabots move down the barrels easier
than full bore heatreated slugs so less pressure. And all minie or 58cal bullets
used in our sabot will be less than 560gr. 95% will be less than 500gr.
And his case won't hold 90gr with sabot, only hold about 82gr.
In your 3.5" case you could go 100gr with sabot. They are light weight
compared to 730gr slug. The 4759 loads I didn't invent I got then from Greg
and he had tested them also. The powder is so slow starting it has huge
safety margin built in..And 4759 loads ok for .920" muzzles on Sav
and replacement slug barrels. Many are using the loads in pumps
with slug barrels, some that are not even .920".Ed

[hubel458]

The hull with primer backed out may be combo of goofy ignition and too low of pressure,
What does the base of the base cup measure on that case just above
the rim. 32gr of Steel isn't a lot, they use much more than that for heavy shot loads
in factory goose and turkey loads.Ed.

[cpileri]

I measured the hull and found a few things I hadnt noticed before:
1. base brass measurement just above the rim is .815, except where finding 2 is found; unfired hull is .804-.8045 (when fired these did not extract automatically, but required just a tap w a dowel down the bore)
2. there is a bulge where the brass extruded into the extractor groove, which is 0.010" (total diameter over this bulge .825")
3. the brass face and primer face picked up machining marks from the breech face.

No extractor mark on the breech face, but the extrusion into the extractor groove noted in 2 is present.

I can take more pics later.

C-

[cpileri]

I have correlating data abt the 78-80gr 4759 load w 730gr slug: i have notes from tested data that has an 880gr slug w 65gr 4759 well within SAAMI spec. (I will get specifics later today if interested). What I mean is that the load Mr. Hubel posted seems very reasnable even though I personally havent seen the test data.

Mr Hubel: Sir, what was you estimated or actual velocity with the Hubel Sabot, 55gr Steel, using a 440gr slug? Sorry if its posted somewhere and I missed it.

One thing that remains (for test 5 perhaps) is to get out a chronograph and see what we've cooked up w some favorite loads from all these tests.

C-

[hubel458]

That velocity with 55gr Steel and 440 gr is about 2000,

As far as protruded primer and .815" measuremenr could all be
effect of soft Fioochi cases. The triball load and the 55gr sabot load
is heavy load and you need to switch to toughest hulls, not Fioochi/Ed

[cpileri]

They were Cheddite, actually; but yes still soft. Maybe even the same cases? I dont know.

I was also thinking I could switch to federal and call it even.

Thanks for the velocity info on the sabots.

C-

[cpileri]

About that load I mentioned: OK, not "well within SAAMI spec" but not too bad. here's the data
880gr hardcast lead slug, 3" federal cases, 209A primers
65gr IMR 4759 gives 16.8-17.2Kpsi @ 1560fps
63gr "" "" " 15.2Kpsi @ 1515fps
and for what its worth
47gr Lil'Gun = 13.6Kpsi @ 1320fps
and
28.5gr Longshot = 8.3Kpsi @ 1050fps

So the 78-80gr 4759 w 730gr slug @14.7Kpsi, sounds reasonable.
Up to 100gr in 3.5" brass w 440gr +hubel Sabot, also sounds reasonable.

C-

p.s. so the top 2 loads go in my new "barely from H_ll" Power Category, and the bottom 2 can go in "normal"- as in normal 12ga magnum or lesser.

[cpileri]

Spoke to the creator of these wad-slugs; need to knurl the edges of the slug by rolling them on a rough file to help grip the sabot. Will try that, load some more, and repost back in next test.
C-

[Catshooter]

cpileri,

Wow, very very cool work. Fun, isn't it.

A couple years back I worked up a load for my brother's 20 gauge USH. We put the barrel on a rifle frame. He uses only the Mag-Tec 2 3/4 inch all brass shells. Using Blue Dot we get about 1100 fps with three .646 lead balls. Each ball weights 392 grains. Gets inch and a quarter groups at 25, two and a half to three at 50. He loves it.

We weighted his rifle too. Goes about 12.5 lbs.

He knows not to fire these rounds in anything other than his rifle, never a shotgun.


Cat

[cpileri]

You used .646 balls in a 20ga!?!?!? At 1,176gr payload weight! wow! What was your powder charge, wad column, and crimp method?
C-

edit to add: also your primer choice(*) and any pressure data you might have.

(*): i.e. did you drill out the pocket for 209's, use older or new brass w small pistol or berdan primers, etc?