WWII Era .38 Special Loads Wanted

[LubeckTech]

What loads were used in military and police revolvers at the time of the second world war??
I would like to replicate them for my Porto Rican Police Positive that was made in 1939.

[Jupiter7]

From Ken waters pet loads

3.6grs bullseye under 158grn boolit, 860fps. Original load was 21grs fffg.

I'd load light and work load to the fixed sights at 25yds. I run 3.5BE under 158gr SWC in my model 10, stupid accurate and easy enough to shoot but not a powder puff load either. I'd double check the data on alliant's website.

[Scharfschuetze]

Lubecktech,

Military load:

The army 38 special ball loading is pretty anemic. I don't know if the loading that I used at times in the Army is any different from the WW II issue, but I think that it is probably the same as those issued in the Big One.

According to the Army's "Ammunition Book Complete" the details of the load are as follows:

Design type: Ball
Model Number: M41
DODIC: 1305A400
Projectile weight: 130 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 950.0 fps

I shot quite a bit of the stuff up early in my military career and it is reliable and light in recoil. My Victory model S&W (M&P) is well regulated with it and is quite fun to shoot. I often brought it out to the range when we had access to the M 41 load.

My father carried a Victory Model in WWII as a Coastie so I of course found one for him many years ago and it remains one of his prized possessions. As I understand it though, most of the military 38 Specials in WWII were issued to US Navy aircrew. In VN, I had the option of carrying one, but I defaulted to the 1911A1 45 ACP and never looked back.

How to duplicate the M 41 round? I guess I'd start with the 130 grain FMJ 38 Super bullet and canalure it for the 38 Special case and then load it to the nominal 950 fps of the issue M 41 round. I guess that any of the faster powders would suffice when worked up gradually to meet the velocity requirement.

At one time I had a bunch of the military tracer rounds in 38 Special and I would sometimes take them out for night qualifications during my LE career. A cylinder full of those would bring the range offier a runnin' when I fired them into the B-27 target!

Police load:

As Jupiter7 points out above.

M 41 military rounds:

[Outpost75]

79697

The M41 .38 Special never got 900 fps from a revolver. The 900 fps in the specification was based on the 6" solid industry test barrel which was in common use before adoption of the 4" vented test barrel which simulates revolver conditions. Typical 4" barrel revolver velocity is about 780 +/-30 fps which can be approximated with a 130-grain jacketed bullet and 4 grains of Bullseye.

WW2 loads used a 158-grain FMJ bullet.

The USAF PGU/12-B loads were a +P+ and did get 900 fps from the 4" M15 revolver, but were very hard on the guns. The ballistics of that load assembled in .38 Special brass, for use in .357 revolvers only can be approximated with 6 grs. of WC230 and the 130-gr. .38 Super bullet.

[Scharfschuetze]

I never chronographed those M41s that I shot, but I'd agree with you that they probably never made it to the listed velocity in the munitions' book. I did weigh some of the recovered projos though and they were about 130 grains.

I wonder why the military downloaded from the 158 grain bullet to the 130 grain projectile. Doesn't make any sense to me.

It also just occurred to me that my uncle was issued a S&W 2" K Frame as an aircrewman in SAC, but I have no idea what the details of the ammo were.

[Larry Gibson]

..................I wonder why the military downloaded from the 158 grain bullet to the 130 grain projectile. Doesn't make any sense to me.............

Back in the '70s I shot a lot of M41 through a V S&W and my duty 5" M15. I did chronograph it but don't have the data with me. I also read back then the reason for the 130 fmj was because there was no 158 fmj available. All bullet making machines were running full bore with other higher priority bullets. The commercial 130 fmj 38 ACP/Super bullets were available apparently from Olin the/Winchester who got the ammo contract. Probably because they were making and had the 130 fmj's already as a production item. Seems the 130 fmj's were simply used as a wartime expediency. That made sense to it for me.

Why the anemic load though? Since the M41 ammo invariably shoots to point of aim with the fixed sighted V models perhaps the load was simply regulated to the already being produced fixed sighted revolvers?

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

I never chronographed those M41s that I shot, but I'd agree with you that they probably never made it to the listed velocity in the munitions' book. I did weigh some of the recovered projos though and they were about 130 grains. I wonder why the military downloaded from the 158 grain bullet to the 130 grain projectile. Doesn't make any sense to me. It also just occurred to me that my uncle was issued a S&W 2" K Frame as an aircrewman in SAC, but I have no idea what the details of the ammo were.

The WW2 and Korean era 158-grain FMJ ammunition caused frequent problems with Bullet-In-Bore (BIB) malfunctions in worn guns having loose cylinder gap over 0.008". To attain the 850 fps specification velocity required pressures of about 20,000 cup, equivalent to current +P, although that designation did not come into use until 1974.

The "hot" 158-gr. FMJ rounds were very hard on the guns. I can state from personal experience that alloy frame S&W M12 aircrew models fired with it developed excessive end play sufficient to cause misfires after firing about 100 rounds. The design intent of the M41 was to mitigate the bullet-in-bore malfunction issue, and to limit pressure to a reasonable level which would not shoot the guns apart.

The USAF adopted the Ball M41 in 1956, which used a 130-grain full metal jacketed bullet, and loaded to an average pressure of only 13,000 psi, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 725 ft/s from the 2-inch aircrewman revolver. Its lower pressure, similar to target wad cutter loads, was intended to prolong the life of S&W M12 and Colt Aircrewman revolvers with aluminum frames, which were prone to stress fractures when fired with the full-power 158-gr. FMJ ammunition.

In 1961, a revised specification Caliber .38 Ball, Special, M41 was adopted for all U.S. armed forces using .38 Special caliber handguns. The M41 Special cartridge used a 130-grain FMJ bullet loaded to a maximum allowable pressure of 16,000 psi for a velocity of approximately 950 ft/s in a standard industrial solid 6-inch test barrel. Typical velocity was about 750 ft/s from a 4-inch M15 revolver. The M41 Special ball cartridge was first used in .38 revolvers carried by USAF aircrew and Strategic Air Command security police, and by 1963 was also used the U.S. Army security police, dog handlers, and other personnel equipped with .38 revolvers.

A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge. Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s from a solid 6-inch test barrel, and typically about 950 ft/s from a 4-inch M15 revolver. The PGU-12/B is loaded to much higher-pressure, with its bullet deeply set into the case to increase loading density and heavily roll-crimped into the cartridge case.

[Piedmont]

The WW2 and Korean era 158-grain FMJ ammunition caused frequent problems with Bullet-In-Bore (BIB) malfunctions in worn guns having loose cylinder gap over 0.008". To attain the 850 fps specification velocity required pressures of about 20,000 cup, equivalent to current +P, although that designation did not come into use until 1974.



If 158 gr. jacketed stuck in bores at those pressures, it must have been twice as bad for the British with the .38 S&W at lower pressures and a heavier 178 gr. bullet. Is that so?

[Char-Gar]

I have a few of these old Smith and Wesson M&Ps and the loads that shoots to the sights and is very accurate is 3.5/Bulleye over Lyman 358311.

[Outpost75]

If 158 gr. jacketed stuck in bores at those pressures, it must have been twice as bad for the British with the .38 S&W at lower pressures and a heavier 178 gr. bullet. Is that so?

Yes, the jacketed .380 rimmed British cartridge was particularly bad in that respect. When Ruger made. 380 British revolvers for India, they had problems with the government furnished ammo, made at the Kirkee Arsenal in Poona. They purposely rechambered 9mm cylinders and used barrels leftover from the French order to .380 so that the tighter .354 cylinder throats would raise pressure enough to ensure reliable bore exit. This raised pressures from 14,000 to 20,000 psi, boosting velocity from 650 to 800 fps. Those revolvers could use either 9mm with clips, or. 38 S&W or. 380 Mk2 without the clips. Took a while to convince the Indian government to make the change, but being able to use either ammo, and having a stronger gun which gave more power with better accuracy using their existing ammo sold them on it and a huge number were sold to them.

[LubeckTech]

Those 380 Ruger either Speed Six or Service Six used to be common on Gunbroker but are now pretty well dried-up. Could they also shoot .380 auto with clips? Probably not as I think the .380 auto case is shightly smaller.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Many years ago and in a land far away I carried a .38 Spcl S&W Model 10 with a 4" bbl for the NYC Police Department. One quiet morning at about 0300 about 4 Patrol Cars gathered in Riverside Park in NYC to celebrate the promotion of one of it's group to Sergeant.

We spread out our dinners from a local Italian restaurant onto the hood of one of our Plymouth Fury I police cars and scarfed down our pasta, meatballs, sausage, bread and wine dinners with some excellent Tiramasu for a nice desert.

After we all ate somebody got the bright idea to shoot some rats that resided on a couple of barges that were moored offshore just South of the 79th St. boat basin on the North River (Hudson). We all (about 8 cops) started to blast away at the beady eyed little buggers on the barges. We used the bull lights from the police issue cars to see them and we had at it.

All went well until I realized that I needed to save some ammo in case I needed the gun later in the tour of duty. Then I remembered the extra ammo I had put away in the trunk of the RMP (Radio Motor Patrol car) that we had been issued during the last riot in '67. The National Guard was with us and supplied us with an awful amount of Military .38 Special Ammo to supplement ours. We were required to carry only 12 extra rounds on our gunbelts to back up the 6 puny .38 rounds in our revolvers. This was long before the major changes to the NYCPD's firearms policy that would allow an officer to carry a semi auto pistol.

I had filled a couple of military ammo cans with the little 18 round boxes of heavily wax paper wrapped rounds and I quickly distributed them amongst my fellow cops.

We soon realized that these rounds were a lot different than our duty ammo. Much lighter recoil and report. However these were tracer rounds and we had a ball with red streaks coming from the end of our revolvers and ending in a puff of smoke when the rodents were hit. Using the spotlights from the RMP's the rodents did not have a chance.

Then the barges started to smoke some. Then some more. We policed up our brass and dinner detritus and egressed the area poste haste.

Within a half hour we were dispatched to the scene whereupon we noted that both wooden barges were fully afire and they burned out down to the water line and below by dawn. Nobody every determined who owned them or how that got to be afire. We kept out mouths shut for sure.

[Char-Gar]

Crash...Great story, thanks for sharing it with us.

[Outpost75]

Crash, I believe you.

Frank McGee told me and Joe Gregory almost that exact same story at the police revolver championships in Jackson, MS many moons ago.

You are authenticated!

[starreloader]

Crash, I would call that a good night's work..

Oh, some of the stories that could be told by a few of us on this site.. There is just something about the bewitching hour of 2 or 3 in the morning when you just need to refresh yourself... and laughter always helps... 27 of my 38 years I worked on the road/street, sure wish I would have kept a journal of those times.

[TomcatPC]

My Dad was USN Aircrew in an Avenger during the War and he mentions being issued with .38 Special Tracer Cartridges for his revolver as well and the regular .38 Special Ball Rounds.
Mark

[beagle]

Bunches of .38 Special Tracer in VN. A lot of our pilots carried it and thought it was cool. I never determined any use for it other than it was "purty" when fired./beagle

[s1120]

Great story Crash!! Sounds like a great time to spend a few hours....well...untill the fire :) Sounds like a fine dinner also.... now im hungry

[5.7 MAN]

I have some of the AF PGU 12 ammo, I chronoed it in an M15 4" and it is right at 950 FPS. I was always curious about the way the rounds were loaded and figured they deep seated the bullet to get higher pressure.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I guess we ruined the evening for the rodents. Either roast or drown or be shot! By the way that is not a story....it is the truth Pinkie Swear!