Trying to figure this out..

[armouredtrooper]

[smilie=b:I need advice from the pros here.. I bought a Pedersoli Sharpes "Boss" gun from a distributor in Alberta last December and I have diligently been working on a load for my rifle. Here is my conundrum. The barrel is 34" in length and the twist rate is 1/18".

When I bought this rifle, I asked what bullet would be best for this barrel and twist rate? The gent who sold me this rifle also sold me what I think is a Lyman 500 gn boolit mold and told me that this would be the most accurate with this barrel. Ok, so I dished out the cash and now I'm casting 500 gn Lyman spitzer type boolets for my rifle.
When I bought the rifle, I asked for a Soule long range tang site so that I might at some future time, compete at long ranges with the big boys.
The rifle has a mid barrel site that is graduated in 100 yard increments starting at 200 and going to 800. When I use this site, my groups are tight 1-1/2" using 53 gns of pyrodex RS but with this site at 100, my groups are 12" low!!

What am I doing wrong here? Shouldn't my Mean point of impact be high?? Am I supposed to use a lighter boolet?
What, I wonder, would this mid range barrel site be calibrated for?

Today I read in Paul A. Matthiews book, " Loading the Black Powder Cartridge" that he says that 56 gns of Pyrodex RS is equivalent to 70 gns of black powder, so I loaded up 20 rounds for testing at the range next time I go out.
I'm wondering if the Boolit weight is too heavy for the rifle in that it should be close to what the site is set for and not 12" low at 100 yards. Can anyone help a newbee out??
cheers mates..
Guy

[MtGun44]

What caliber and cartridge?
Factories usually set up a gun so you can fix it in the field. LOW IS GOOD, it means the front
sight is too TALL. Just file it down to bring YOUR favorite load's POI to the POA. Too high
would be very bad, you'd need to replace the front sight with a taller one.

Bill

[huntrick64]

Far from a pro, but I have a similar gun and mine loves heavy boolits. I am relatively new to this BPCR game, but have many years experience with casting / shooting and working up loads. Anything from about 480 grains to 560 grains should do well in that gun. If you're getting those cheap factory sights to group 1 1/2" at 100, you will be amazed using a quality tang sight. I quit using that ladder sight the day I put on my Hoke tang sight. Moving your group around on the target is relatively simple to fix. Making your groups go from 4" at 100 to 1" at 100 is what takes time and a lot of shooting. I do all of my load development at 200 yds and 300 would be better.

Can't comment on the powder substitute because I only use black, but you really need to work up some load ladders to find out what your gun likes best. You can do it many ways but here is that path I chose. The most important thing to remember is to change only one thing at a time.

Here is what I did in the order I did it.

1. Compared Postell boolit to BACO Money (Money was best)
2. Compared 30:1 alloy to 20:1 alloy to 50/50 alloy to WW alloy using Money boolit. (50/50 won)
3. Compared CCI-BR2 primers to Fed LR-Mag, Win LR, and Win LP (with over primer wad) using Money boolit, 50/50 alloy. (Win LP won)
4. Then compared various powder compressions
5. Then compared different lubes
6. Then tried different neck tensions
7. Then tried bullet positions off the lands
8. And so on and so on.

You get the idea by now.
I continued changing things in a methodical order, but keeping constant the things that have already proved worthy in my gun. Not trying to overwhelm you, but that is a lot of the fun in this sport, the journey.

Good luck and keep us posted

[country gent]

Loads can make a big diffrence in point of impact. Chances are the sight was graduated fora factory load with a 405 grn bullet. Your load is probably around 1100-1200 fps slightly slower than the smokeless factory loads. Throw in barrel harmonics and its possible. Put up a tall target at 200 and test that setting also this will give you an idea if its the sight /load combo or the way you are "seeing" the sight. Everyones eyes are diffrent and see the sight blade diffrently everyones Idea of 6 oclock, center, and flush is diffrent. Use the same hold and test it. your talking around an 1/8" of correction here. Are you holding center hold or at 6 Oclock? Light affects blade sights also did you "smoke it with a dull black soot? My pendersoli Has the soule long range rear sight with the front windage adjustable globe. Very accurate wiht 500-550 grn bullets. It has has the 1-18 twist barrel and pendersoli chamber. There is no barrel mounted sight on it though. WHat is the hieght of your front sight now? Blade or did you put a globe on it with the soule?

[Don McDowell]

Using your load and description, your front sight is to tall. File it down to get the elevation zero at 100 yds. Remember to use a 6 oclock hold.

[Kermit1945]

I would start with losing the Pyrodex. BPCR = BLACK POWDER cartridge rifle. I couldn't make Pyro shoot as well or clean as easily as BP. Just my experience.

[SharpsShooter]

What Don said is correct for your situation. However, after shooting these types of rifle for over 30 years, I'm comfortable in saying that you will never get the accuracy that the rifle is capable of with that bullet and powder combination.

Black powder is your friend and Lyman 457125 is perhaps the best bullet to start your load work with. Cast of 20 to 1 alloy, it will weigh 520 grain or thereabouts.

Loading for these rifles requires a different technique and a high attention to detail that go beyond the protocol for smokeless load (generally speaking)

SS

[montana_charlie]

[smilie=b:I need advice from the pros here.. I bought a Pedersoli Sharpes "Boss" gun from a distributor in Alberta last December and I have diligently been working on a load for my rifle. Here is my conundrum. The barrel is 34" in length and the twist rate is 1/18".

When I bought this rifle, I asked what bullet would be best for this barrel and twist rate? The gent who sold me this rifle also sold me what I think is a Lyman 500 gn boolit mold and told me that this would be the most accurate with this barrel. Ok, so I dished out the cash and now I'm casting 500 gn Lyman spitzer type boolets for my rifle.
What is the Lyman mould number? It should be something like '457125' or '457132'. What is yours?


When I bought the rifle, I asked for a Soule long range tang site so that I might at some future time, compete at long ranges with the big boys.
The rifle has a mid barrel site that is graduated in 100 yard increments starting at 200 and going to 800. When I use this site, my groups are tight 1-1/2" using 53 gns of pyrodex RS but with this site at 100, my groups are 12" low!!
The Pedersoli 'Boss' rifle is (normally) packaged with a mid-range vernier tang sight and a globe front sight.
Your purchase request may have had the dealer replace the standard tang sight with a long-range Soule, but he would not have needed to change the front globe.

Is this in fact the kind of front sight you have?
Are you trying to use the barrel sight with a globe front?

If so, flip up the ladder and try it that way.

CM

[bigted]

I will second the 457125 mold. it is the first and best overall in all my rifles. the gubberment round nose style likes to be loaded so that the front band just nicks the rifling in most rifles ...[45-70]... also I use the original powder as well. never got the hang of the aftermarket stuff for powder. 68 to 72 grains seem just rite for all my rifles as well.

don't adjust or file your sights till you figure out the best and most accurate load that your rifle wants. after you discover this load ...then... adjust your sights or replace till you get regulated ...for your sight picture... to print your groups rite on target where you want the group to center.

welcome to the forum by the way and these fellers have guided many of us to shoot good groups with our hiwalls and sharps and rolling blocks as well as the trapdoors ...you are certainly in the rite place for your information that you ask for. just don't have you feelings on your shirt sleeve as some will rub em ...maybe accidently , maybe on purpose... but the info is usually very spot on and the desire is always to get you on target and to add to your addiction instead of making it a miserable experience.

have a blast and we ALL look forward to reading about your most excellent journey.

[armouredtrooper]

What is the Lyman mould number? It should be something like '457125' or '457132'. What is yours?


The Pedersoli 'Boss' rifle is (normally) packaged with a mid-range vernier tang sight and a globe front sight.
Your purchase request may have had the dealer replace the standard tang sight with a long-range Soule, but he would not have needed to change the front globe.

Is this in fact the kind of front sight you have?
Are you trying to use the barrel sight with a globe front?

If so, flip up the ladder and try it that way.

CM
The Lyman mold number is # 457658. My front sight is a globe and has sight inserts. I'm currently using a post insert with a thickness of .048" with a post height of .198" my mid barrel sight has a height of .335 to the bottom of the valley at what I assume is the 100 yard sighting with the ladder sight folded in the down position.. I tested the mid barrel ladder on the up position and found that my mean point of impact was a good 24" high from my point of aim.

[Don McDowell]

That bullet can be a decent bullet.
Your ladder sight isn't going to work for sour owl **** with the globe front sight. If you want to use that barrel sight you'll need to replace the globe with a blade. Other wise get used to using the tang sights and front globe.

[chuebner]

The Lyman mold number is # 457658.

I have that same mold and could not get it to shoot well in any of my 45/70's. On the other hand my Pedersoli Sharps Silhouette loves the Lyman 457125 over 62gr. of 2F GOEX or Schuetzen.

[montana_charlie]

The Lyman mold number is # 457658.
That is called the Schmittzer bullet, and I have never heard anybody praise it.

My front sight is a globe and has sight inserts. I'm currently using a post insert with a thickness of .048" with a post height of .198" my mid barrel sight has a height of .335 to the bottom of the valley at what I assume is the 100 yard sighting with the ladder sight folded in the down position.
That indicates your post insert is less than two tenths of an inch high, and I think even the common blade sight is higher than that. From what surface on the barrel are you measuring to get that height?
Are you measuring to the center of the circle formed by the globe?

By comparison, your rear sight notch is well over three eighths of an inch high (probably measured from the top barrel flat).
Considering that barrel doesn't have much taper, it's kinda surprising the heights of the two sights would be that different.




I tested the mid barrel ladder on the up position and found that my mean point of impact was a good 24" high from my point of aim.
The slider was in the bottom notch?
What does that 'valley' measure from the top barrel flat?

CM

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The Pedersoli's have a slight taper from breech to muzzle of about 0.0015" and so a slightly larger bullet works well. I have a PGT bullet mould 545gns that is shot 'as cast' which is 0.460". My other mould is an old Henly and Gibbs 420gn that also casts 0.460".

[bigted]

you say you requested a tang Soule sight ... did you get this sight? if so are you going to use it? I also think that with the globe front you will have little luck using your barrel "ladder" sight. did your rifle come to you with a bead or blade front sight?

I guess another question is whether your rifle is new or previously owned?

so here is my recommendation to ponder as well ... either replace the globe front with a simple blade sight from C-Sharps ... or get a wrist mounted vernier rear sight [Sharps style] that will adjust for your 34 inch barrel length. the wrist mounted sight can be purchased fairly cheap ... around $280 from either Shiloh Sharps or Montana vintage Arms. these "Sharps" style sights are not the Soule sights but very good sights for the money and do not cost in the $475ish range. these Sharps sights are windage adjustable to a point and will get you centered on target in fine shape ... in addition they have interchangeable eye disks that will meet your eye needs for a clear sight picture.

I highly recommend getting a good plain blade sight for the from from C-Sharps for around $20 as these are good front sights for just about all type shooting except for the very longest ranges from 800 yds to 0ver 1500 yds which you will probably want to spend the more bucks for a good Soule type rear and your Globe front with the inserts.

those barrels seem to be very accurate and I speak from experience with my Ped long range rifle with the same 34 inch barrel with the 18 inch twist. my rifle likes the 457125 boolit and loaded out to kiss the rifling with the front drive band. it also allows me to load 70+ grains real blackpowder behind the boolit ...the only thing I don't care for doing this is that the front grease groove is fully exposed to collect dust n grime but... if you keep em clean and under cover they will serve you well im bettin. another good bet is a mold from Buff arms and if memory serves it is number 460500.... being a .460 diameter and weighing in at 509 or so grains. it is a large groove boolit that more closely resembles the old government boolit and posses plenty room for copious amounts of good lube. lube is another area for improvement but with 1.5 inch groups at 100yds im thinkin that you may already have a good load and your boolit may do what you want with some fiddling.

just some mo ideas from the peanut gallery.

[RMulhern]

If/when ya change over to BP instead of that morphodyke Pyrodex maybe I can help ya but all I can tell you about the krap you're using is that it's KRAP!!

[Lead Fred]

Today I read in Paul A. Matthiews book, " Loading the Black Powder Cartridge" that he says that 56 gns of Pyrodex RS is equivalent to 70 gns of black powder
Guy

Sorry Bro there is NO equivalent for holy black.

With a postel boolit you might try a grease cookie to stabilize the round.

closed my groups up by half.

Didnt make them go high or low, just a better group.

[Don McDowell]

Looked up the Boss gun on Pedersoli's site.. With the globe sight that comes with that rifle, there's just about no way on gods green earth to get the barrel sight regulated to hit poa with any insert. That globe just sits to high to accomplish that.
Using the ladder sight to any affect is going to require taking that globe out and installing a blade.

[montana_charlie]

Looked up the Boss gun on Pedersoli's site.. With the globe sight that comes with that rifle, there's just about no way on gods green earth to get the barrel sight regulated to hit poa with any insert. That globe just sits to high to accomplish that.
Using the ladder sight to any affect is going to require taking that globe out and installing a blade.
If his globe sight were too high, the gun would shoot low when using the ladder sight on the barrel.
His Post #10 says that it shot high ... indicating the front sight is too short or the ladder sight was too tall.

CM

[littlejack]

armouredtrooper:
Welcome to the CastBoolits sir.
Just out of curiosity sir; Is there any reason you don't use black powder?
You ask for information from some of the experts here. I myself am not, but, Don, Rick and Charley are probably some of the best and well known and experience educated BPCR shooters around, not to mention some of the other members that I have not had the pleasure of posting on this forum.
A few years back, they all got me to shootin my pasta rifle (Uberti 1885 Hiwall) with there experience and expertise. Listen and learn.
45-70= .45 caliber boolits + 70 grains of black. The cartridge was designed for that.
I have a target with 5 shots at 100 yards with a cheap David Pedersoli sight. All of the shots can be covered with a quarter.
The slug is the Lyman government 500 grain 457125. It drops about 522 grains.
Try it, it works.

Regards
Jack

[bigted]

If his globe sight were too high, the gun would shoot low when using the ladder sight on the barrel.
His Post #10 says that it shot high ... indicating the front sight is too short or the ladder sight was too tall.

CM

naaa ... Charlie ... read it again pard! he says that with the ladder UP it shoots 24 high. with the ladder down it shoots LOW!

cant really help tho if he don't continue to reply with answers to the questions asked about his situation.

those rifles are ...[in unmolested condition]... very good shooters. the Sharps style wrist sights provided with them are not of very good value tho. he will need to either fiddle with the vertical level to adjust his impact on the target with the non adjustable windage , vernier sight and do Kentucky style windage or replace it with one of several good adjustable sights that DO adjust for windage.

still bet that the photo's would do wonders for the advise given ... :drinks: ... also he would be well advised to either get the real blackpowder or hope that someone that uses the fake stuff will chime in with some loading advise with it.

[Don McDowell]

The thing could possibly be regulated to shoot with the ladder sight, but a person would need a super memory or a good note pad, because the numbers on that staff aren't going to mean a thing, like they do when the blade front is used and filed to the appropriate 100 yd zero.
That pyrodex charge he is using "should" be quite close to the velocity of a 70 gr 2f charge, but still the height of that front globe is going to make the ladder sight mostly ornamental...

[montana_charlie]

naaa ... Charlie ... read it again pard! he says that with the ladder UP it shoots 24 high. with the ladder down it shoots LOW!
High is what I said, Ted.

If his globe sight were too high, the gun would shoot low when using the ladder sight on the barrel.
His Post #10 says that it shot high ... indicating the front sight is too short or the ladder sight was too tall.

CM
See?

[John Boy]

Some comments about the Lyman 457658:
* the base diameter is 458 - 459. Pedersoli barrels like bullets in the 460-461 diameter range
* It is a bore riding bullet meaning the bullet has to be seated out so the nose is slightly engraved by the leading bore cuts

[Don McDowell]

If his globe sight were too high, the gun would shoot low when using the ladder sight on the barrel.
His Post #10 says that it shot high ... indicating the front sight is too short or the ladder sight was too tall.

CM

Charlie post 10 might very well say that when he raises the slide on the sight then it shoots high. But if you go back to post #1 where the problem is originally out lined you will find this sentence

The rifle has a mid barrel site that is graduated in 100 yard increments starting at 200 and going to 800. When I use this site, my groups are tight 1-1/2" using 53 gns of pyrodex RS but with this site at 100, my groups are 12" low!!


Comprendy?

[montana_charlie]

Charlie post 10 might very well say that when he raises the slide on the sight then it shoots high. But if you go back to post #1 where the problem is originally out lined you will find this sentence

Comprendy?
Sure, I understand. But a lot of conversation has gone on since that first post, including getting him to try with the ladder raised. Since you specifically mentioned the 'ladder' in your Post #18, I took that to mean you were keeping up.

CM

[concho]

45-70= .45 caliber boolits + 70 grains of black. The cartridge was designed for that. .45 caliber correct ! 70 grains of black ? Sorry 70 grains of water is what the brass case will hold is what it means do some research !

[montana_charlie]

45-70= .45 caliber boolits + 70 grains of black. The cartridge was designed for that. .45 caliber correct ! 70 grains of black ? Sorry 70 grains of water is what the brass case will hold is what it means do some research !
I have tried explaining that in the past. It's useless.
CM

[Don McDowell]

Charlie cut the beligerant ****. The ladder sight was mentioned along time before post 18.

[littlejack]

I beg to differ sirs.
If you could post articles of where it is stated that the 45-70 cartridge holds your stated weights of water, I would like to read them.
I have read numerous articles on the web that state that the 45-70 cartridge nomenclature is 70 grains of black powder.
I have read two articles on case water volume. The first one for the 45-70, was an average of a 75.5 for several articles
The second was an article by Chuck Hawks, that stated that the water volume weight of the 45-70 was 79 grains.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.
Regards
Jack

[bigted]

should probably just turn away and allow this to roll by but I aint gonna...not this time !

this is just plain ridiculous! :roll: ...:veryconfu ... :killingpc

the man is hitting LOW. read LOW with his rear sight in the 100 yds position ... meaning DOWN ... ya know ... laying down on the barrel in the correct place for shooting at 100 yards? why be cantankerous and try to make it out as being another's fault when you obviously are mistaken and more then 1 or 2 can see it. the man needs a shorter front sight ... period! grow up with all your annoying and sometimes childish ways... my goodness this IS a place where we try to help others out rather then tear another down with some sort of sniping and cheap shots. I bet you could find another forum where cheap shots and belligerent typing would fit in more correctly ... in fact I have left a forum for just this kinda accepted behavior ... here it is just plain RUDE and offensive ... tis the why I stopped contributing on that other forum and if this stupidity continues ill stop being here as well ... which will be a shame as I know that all contributors have good things to add and teach others to include myself ... however it behooves me to take my fun where it is FUN and INFORMATIVE ... not a battleground every once inna while over some inane and sometimes superfluous item in another's post or in the way another uses the English language. this is not school nor do any of us need nor desire to be corrected anytime someone decides to be uppity and place themselves up a step instead of just going with the flow.

now that my blood pressure is up a bit ... I am bettin that this little rant will be "corrected" and torn apart by GUESS WHO.

what a shame fellers have to be this way!

[Don McDowell]

Well said Ted.

[littlejack]

I agree 100% Ted.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie cut the beligerant ****. The ladder sight was mentioned along time before post 18.
When armouredtrooper said his shot went 24 inches high, in Post #10, that was in reply to my suggestion (in Post #8) that he try his barrel sight with the ladder raised.

Since armoured trooper has not commented since then, the conversation - with him - stands at that point ... with the ladder raised. So, all of my recent remarks have been geared toward that configuration.

Don and Ted, you guys keep saying 'barrel sight' or 'ladder sight', but you never say 'ladder up' or 'ladder down'.
Because of where the conversation currently stands with amouredtropper, I have been assuming you two meant 'ladder up'.

I am not so dense as to believe that a rear sight meant to be used with the common blade could in any way be used with a globe sight that is over twice as tall as the blade.
That is why I suggested he try with the ladder up. It is the only possible way that the two sights currently installed on the rifle can possibly work together.

That is why I objected when Don said, in Post #18 (when the discussion was already 'ladder up'), "Using the ladder sight to any affect is going to require taking that globe out and installing a blade."

Here is an image taken through my Soule sight when it is set for 100 yards.
The ladder is erected, and the slider raised to the second 'notch'.
As is plainly seen, the ladder sight CAN be regulated to be in line with the sight picture required for 100 yard shooting.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/PeepampLadder_zpse153cbd0.jpg

CM

[bigted]

where did armouredtrooper go...the original poster? hope this snipping back n forth didn't scare him away. id like to read about his battles and winnings with his new rifle.

[Red River Rick]

where did armouredtrooper go...the original poster? hope this snipping back n forth didn't scare him away. id like to read about his battles and winnings with his new rifle.

Well Ted...................you contributed to the snipping as well. Probably did scare him off.:???:

RRR

[hickstick_10]

Armouredtrouper.

Closest place to you I can think of to get real black powder is R&T Gunsmithing in Warburg Alberta, mans name is Roy Gruninger and hes got himself a nice shop. He carries Goex in 2f and 3f.

Reason I mention it is BP is a bit tough to find around your area.

[bigted]

Well Ted...................you contributed to the snipping as well. Probably did scare him off.:???:

RRR

yepper guess I did. apology's around. still think the man needs a shorter BLADE type front sight to bring it to bear. hope I didn't have part in scaring him off!!!

[concho]

I beg to differ sirs.
If you could post articles of where it is stated that the 45-70 cartridge holds your stated weights of water, I would like to read them.
I have read numerous articles on the web that state that the 45-70 cartridge nomenclature is 70 grains of black powder.
I have read two articles on case water volume. The first one for the 45-70, was an average of a 75.5 for several articles
The second was an article by Chuck Hawks, that stated that the water volume weight of the 45-70 was 79 grains.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.
Regards
Jack The hand loaders Manual of cartridge , and every cartridge has grains of water for the volume the empty brass holds ! powder for 45/70 with a 405 grain bullet is stated 52 grains . have you ever loaded a 45/70 with 70 grains of 2f powder ? unless you use Buffalo arms powder packers to compress the powder down to accept the bullet otherwise you will destroy the bullet pressing it into the brass case .

[CanoeRoller]

Most of the fellows here are giving good advice.

I would add that you and your rifle are unique, and the best load will be unique as well. I fully agree with getting the best sights you can get your hands on. A Sharps style veneer will give you great accuracy potential without the hit to your pocket book from a Soule. If you are off by a foot, you will want to look at a change in your sights.

The boolit you are using was the second round I ever used in my old 45-70. It has a few plusses, it looks kind of cool, it uses less lead than the 457125, but needs to be cast quite hard to not slump in the barrel and keyhole. When I was using it, on a calm day, I was able to get consistent 7-8 inch groups at 200 yards I cast it with wheel weights and about a pound of extra tin added to a 20 pound pot. And yes, I used Pyrodex at that time. I was happy with groups that size as I learned to shoot the old rifles. I would be disappointed shooting a group like that now though.

It is a perfectly decent boolit to start with, and will enable you to get on paper and start to develop loads. If you stay with the rifle, you will likely outgrow it in time.

Don't let folks bully you away from Pyrodex, if you have it available, and it gets you out on the range, go for it.

In my experience, Pyrodex will push a boolit at close to, but slightly less velocity than 2f Goex.

If you are not able to get your hands on BP easily, you can make Pyrodex work and you can deal with its corrosiveness with a little extra care.

The one thing I would point out, is never mention you are shooting Pyrodex. In the opinion of many BP shooters, that places you way down the totem pole, somewhere between politicians from the opposition party and raccoons raiding garbage cans.

[country gent]

Ive never cared about what other shooters shoot whether black, or substitute or smokeless. I only worry about what Im doing Lifes to short for the drama. The only conern with other shooter I have is that they be safe and know what they are doing. I truly enjoy the comardire on the range and meeting new shooters and trying new disciplines. Use what you can get enjoy the sport and most of all enjoy the day. Make friends. Pyrodex black horn triple seven all have their plusses and minuses as does Black powder. I routinly load 70 grns of 2f goex under a 500 grn PP bullet but its only in the case .200 deep.