too much lube?

[nickyc]

This popped into my head earlier as I was reading through some post on olde eynsford.
Is there such a thing? Would using something such as a big lube or accurate 46-260f with the better BP's be less accurate than a bullet carrying less lube? Should have a new vaquero in the next few weeks and my new house has a very large field behind it with nothing in sight

[Don McDowell]

You can get to much lube and get some "lube warping" of a bullet. But that's not the problem with the "big lubes" , they're biggest problem where accuracy is concerned is the huge lube cavity, leaving such a small stem of lead to try and support the nose. There's no way the bullet can set back in a repeatable or even fashion .
Plenty of bullets will carry more than enough lube for a 45 colt handgun or rifle and have the ability to shoot accurately to 200 yds and beyond, that aren't under the "biglube" trademark.

[nickyc]

Any recommendations for a mold? I have ww and pure lead to use.

[Don McDowell]

Depending on what you're planning on doing with that Ruger, I don't shoot the dressup cowboy squibshooters game, so I don't use any of the rndfp type bullets. I do however shoot quite a few of the Keith type swc's in the 45's and 44's and they hold plenty of lube for blackpowder use. The original styled bullets from Lyman and RCBS both work well for me in the 38-40, and Accurate moulds has a pretty good selection of bullet design's worked up by folks that shoot bp in the short cases.
I've even had good results loading the Remington bulk 255's with a dab of lube wiped in their base and using a thin card between the bullet and the powder.

[nickyc]

I'm planning on teaching myself to shoot accurately.the plastic fantastic(g19) spoiled me with quantity over quality.with a range 10 feet away, I have no excuse not to.

[TXGunNut]

Not sure which cartridge your new Ruger will be chambered for but I've found the 454424 Lyman doesn't need a bunch of lube. Just for grins I lubed a handful with two coats of straight LLA and they shot just fine over 37 grs KIK FFFg with no issues. I don't shoot large quantities anymore, extended strings may cause issues but I didn't see any indications of it.

[nickyc]

I'm pretty sure im going for a 45lc. The 357 felt muzzle heavy to me

[Don McDowell]

For all out accuracy, I really like the RCBS 250 KT bullet in the 45, and the Lee 255 swc is a great favorite of mine in the Colt for the last 30 years or so. It doesn't take a terrible amount of lube to work with bp in a handgun, but a quality lube, such as Bullshop's NASA certainly makes things go better.

[nickyc]

Thank you both for the advice. Last question I can think of would be; will straight wheel weights work? I feel it would be a waste to mix it with the pure I have on hand.might as well trade it with someone who could put it to a better use.

[Don McDowell]

Yes straight ww's will work if they aren't full of to much linotype, antimony or other mystery metal that makes them hard or brittle. Mixing 9 lbs of ww with a lb of pure lead has made a pretty good alloy for me with a number of different bigbore bullets.

[Gunlaker]

It seems like you have everything sorted :-). I use an RCBS rnfp 250gr bullet in my New Vaquero and my Marlin 1894 and it shoots pretty well in 20:1 lubed with SPG and a case full of Goex FFg.

Chris.

[Springfield]

You didn't really say what distance you are planning on shooting, but in general handguns don't need as much lube as longguns. Certainly the Big Lubes aren't required. I shoot my Colt 1911 in 45 acp with Lyman 454190 bullets and they only have 2 smaller lube grooves, been good for at least 50 rounds without a hiccup, using KIK fffg. Normally I shoot the dress-up cowboy squibshooters game with my 44-40's and use a 200 grain Big Lube RNFP. Didn't realize 35 grains of fffg was a squib load, but I will defer to the experts here.

[nickyc]

I have about 2-300 yards to work with.I'd like to work up to that

[JeffG]

Nickyc,

I've been using a Lee 90358 RNFP 255 grain with my New Vaquero 5.5" in stainless. With BP, I cast with 20/1 alloy. I've actually shot these same bullets using Unique and Blue Dot and had no issues. For the BP loads I use crisco, beewax and canola oil blend. I dip lube these, wipe the base clean and run through a Lee .452 sizer. If shooting smokeless, I've been dip lubing with Alox. I have also cast some COWW with 3% tin, lubing with Alox and they've done just fine too. I'm not shooting long distance, just popping steel targets at ~25-30 yards.

[w30wcf]

Nick,
These are the bullets I consider "Ideal" for use in .45 Colt Rifles shooting black powder in that they have 2 adequate lube grooves or additional lube capacity. That is not to say that others won't work but these are my preferences.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45coltblackpowderbullets.jpg

The 454190 is a copy of the original .45 Colt b.p. bullet. The RCBS is a close copy and has an exposed edge on the front driving band which acts as a nice scrapper. Both bullets do have noses of .20" which some might think just a bit too small for a lever gun magazine. I have used both with equal success with no issues.

I felt that a great bullet for the .45 Colt b.p. rifle would be one that followed the profile of the time proven 427098 .44-40 rifle bullet so I worked with Tom at Accurate Molds to produce an upscaled version of that historic bullet. It is now his 45-260B.

I have found that with the 2 lube grooved bullets, accuracy will start to deteriorate in a 24" barrel after a dozen shots or so as the barrel begins fouling out with all brands of b.p.'s with the exception of Swiss and Olde Enysford. Those are the powders of choice for those bullets.

It became obvious that a bullet would need to carry additional lube capacity if one were to shoot many rounds from a repeating rifle accurately with Goex and like type powders so the PRS / DD Big Lube bullet came into being and it does that job very well.

Since I like to shoot my leverguns over longer distances (200+ yards) at steel targets, my preference was for 2 lube grooved bullets pushed by either Swiss or Olde Enysford. But..... I also wanted a bullet that would provide the best accuracy at those longer distances for multiple shots from a repeating rifle using Goex and similar powders so the 45-260F was born.

It's lube capacity is ideal for making the 24" trip many times. I had determined the "ideal" amount of lube (not too much, not too little) based on previous testing that I have done. I must confess that I have not had the opportunity to try it at extended distances yet but plan to do so soon. I'll report my findings when I do.

w30wcf

[Springfield]

w30wcf: Do you find that the scraper on bullets actually works? Seems like it should but I haven't seen any actual testing on it. I had a couple of moulds made that had them just because I thought it wouldn't hurt, but can't really prove that it does. Here is my 165 grain 44 boolit.

80117

[nickyc]

So Is olde eynsford equal to swiss when it comes to fouling?

[w30wcf]

Springfield,
Prior to the Accurate Molds, I worked a fair amount with the 454190 and RCBS bullets. In my Marlin (24") the RCBS would group about 1 1/2x better than the 454190. About the only real difference between the two is the exposed forward edge on the front driving band. So it appears that might make a difference....at least in my rifle.

Nick,
Yes.

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

A lot of pistol bullets, especially the "Big Lube" bullets have lube grooves a lot deeper than they need to be especially when they are loaded using black powder in the finer granulations. You will only use the lube that is the depth of the lands so why go deeper with the lube grooves using lube you wont use? The with is fine, it will expose more lube to the bore but the excessive depth is just a waste of lube and does crazy things to the bullet if one does a poor job lubing bullets like having gaps in the lube.

[Springfield]

The Big Lube bullets look they way they do because the first guy who developed them was using a Maxi ball as a guide. He wanted to make sure the lube was still there at the end of the barrel. Pretty sure the lube doesn't stay in place but is forced out by both pressure when the bullet slumps and also by rearward force as the bullet accelerates. They were also designed to be used in Cowboy Action shoots, not long range, and for that they work well. Yes, you can use bullets with less lube, especially if you use Swiss and maybe SPG and maybe swab your bores between stages, but many, like myself, just want to load up with whatever powder is on sale and use our homemade lube and shoot the match without touching the gun. Most Cowboy shooters want to go to a match to have FUN, not worry about all the little nuances that you BPCR guys love to do. Call us lazy fat old men who just want to dress up like cowboys and blast away at large, close targets. That's OK because for many that is the truth. You don't pick on us and we won't tell you we think spending more on your rifle sights than we spent on both our pistols and maybe our rifle too is silly. Maybe we should re-name the Big Lube bullets the "Fun bullet", then no one will expect much from it accuracy wise and all the negative comments will stop.

[Springfield]

w30wcf: If accuracy was about the same but the scraper bullet kept the accuracy longer than maybe I could believe the scraper works. Personally I think the much larger base on the RCBS bullet may have more affect on the bullet accuracy than the scraper ridge. Be interesting to do a test with bullets that were very similar except for the scraper and see which one kept accuracy longer.

[nickyc]

Springfield, if there was a way to like your comment I'd be all over it.I understand the big lube concept and appreciate all the people that have contributed to the line that dd carries. I also thank w30wcf and everyone else who has chimed in on this thread.its kind of a shame I trolled this site for so long before I actually joined and tried to learn something. Unfortunately I saw a beautiful 32-20 marlin last night and I sold out. The new vaquero is on hold for a month or so:groner:

[w30wcf]

A lot of pistol bullets, especially the "Big Lube" bullets have lube grooves a lot deeper than they need to be especially when they are loaded using black powder in the finer granulations. You will only use the lube that is the depth of the lands so why go deeper with the lube grooves using lube you wont use? The with is fine, it will expose more lube to the bore but the excessive depth is just a waste of lube and does crazy things to the bullet if one does a poor job lubing bullets like having gaps in the lube.

Lead Pot,
That's what I thought in my early days of black powder in repeating rifles. I soon found out that was not the case. I used the Lee 255 RNFP bullet. It had 2 shallow lube grooves .015" deep. I modified the bullet, removing the middle driving band making one wide lube groove .015" deep.

I loaded 10 rounds with 36 grs Goex FFG and fired them from my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy Rifle. Lube was SPG. It was a bit disappointing in that the barrel fouled out (hard ring of fouling forming in from the muzzle).

So.....I went to a .020" lube groove depth... still fouled out. Then to .023...same thing. Finally, at a .027" lube groove depth there was no foul out in 10 rounds. So I tried 15, then 20. Everything Aok....so far. After further testing, I decided to go 10% deeper (.03") for a bit more assurance of no foul out in 50+ rounds fired and that has worked very well.

I did the same thing with the .44-40, using the 427098 bullet which had deeper lube grooves to start. After testing some modified 427098's I found the same lube capacity applied as well.

The result of that testing is the 43-215C for the .44-40 which follows the historic 427098 profile and the 45-260F for the .45 Colt which also follows the same profile. I have fired the 43-215C out to 300 meters and it flies very well producing accuracy on par with the parent 427098.

I have yet to test the 45-260F at that distance but will be within the next couple of months which is the next time I can get back to Ridgway, PA.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

w30wcf: If accuracy was about the same but the scraper bullet kept the accuracy longer than maybe I could believe the scraper works. Personally I think the much larger base on the RCBS bullet may have more affect on the bullet accuracy than the scraper ridge. Be interesting to do a test with bullets that were very similar except for the scraper and see which one kept accuracy longer.

Springfield,
The 45-260B has a bit of the forward driving band exposed and does have a base driving band width similar to the 454190. In testing so far, I did find that the 45-260B does shoot groups at 100 yards on par with the RCBS bullet. So at least, in my rifle, the scrapper edge up front performs the best.

w30wcf

[Springfield]

Cool. Nice to hear of real world testing by someone who has no financial interest in the bullet.

[prs]

Springfield and w30wcf hve done well in describing my boolit, the PRS-454-250-RF. It was purely a selfish act to design it to suit my personal desire and need. When cast from clip on ww plus 1% extra tin the mid section does not do funny things to louse up accuracy, that mid section diameter is the root mean square of the outer diameter and such preserves much of the compressional strength. If a caster decides to use soft lead with this design and shoot flys at 100 yards, she/he may be dissappointed. It is a lever action rifle boolit meant for close large targets and any long range capability is purely serendippity. I made that boolit when Goex hard fouling fodder was the norm and Elephant was not much better, some late lots worse. I also intended for the PRS to be easy for the novice caster to successfully produce in quantity. I was and am happy with it and I have never sold a copy nor sought or received any money for the design. I am pleased that so many have enjoyed the benefits.

prs

[w30wcf]

PRS,

Thank you for inventing it! :Bright idea: It certainly works very well as you intended it.

w30wcf