Muzzleloader lead

[supertodd]

is stick on tire weights soft enough for muzzleloader bullets?

[waksupi]

Yes...

[mooman76]

Yes it is. If you are just casting RBs then even WWs will work if that is all you have but you need the soft lead for conicals.

[DIRT Farmer]

In my guns and the way I load no. Today I missed the first squrriel I had a shot at this season. I decided I needed some pratice this afternoon.
Gun is a 32 flinter with a Green Mountin barrel, 25 grns of fffg Olde Ensford .015 ticking patches, either spit or Bore butter if hunting and a .319 ball. Last weekend I shot at least 50 walnuts for pratice, If I am holding on 35 yds with a rest the nut is gone. I ran out of balls made from x-ray sheathing and there was lead from target 22 rimfire in the pot. A bit harder than x-ray but fairly soft. The first session this afternoon 5 shots at 25 yds went into 6 inches from a rest. I checked the patches and they all had one side blown off. I came in cleared the pot and ran some from x-ray lead. They loaded much better, grouped within a quater size group from a rest (as well as I can see my sights anymore) and the patches survived.
I learned from target shooters not that I am one, lead as soft as you can get near bore size balls and enough patch to controll fouling with whatever you lube with.
Now what do I do with 250 hard .319 balls.

[dondiego]

Slingshot ammo? Buckshot?

[1Shirt]

Probably 40 or more years ago was told that ONLY pure lead was satisfactory for front stuffers. However one of my friends who worked in a tire shop shot only wheelweights from his ML's, and he shot a good many prizes, and a few deer with them. I have shot pure lead, and wheelweights, w/roundball, and with proper thickness of patch, never could tell a difference.
1Shirt1

[bob208]

I was always told and used " pure " lead or lead as soft as you can get. now there will be some that say you can use wheel weights. I say no. also don't use w-w balls in cap and ball pistols. that is a sure way to break the rammer or pull the arbor out of a colt type.

[OnHoPr]

Buckshot, Dirt Farmer. Back a number of years ago when I sighting in or testing at a local berm a couple of older gents came to where I was shooting and started shooting with me. They had sidelocks with bent hammers and scoped. One was a 54 and the other a 50. They were using Goex and patches, I am not sure of the patch thickness or the lube. But they were using Remington Gold Balls. They both were shooting under an 1 1/2" at close to a 100 yards. These balls did not show any sign of hitting the berm or coming out of a barrel. They really looked like you could shoot them again but I am not sure if they could have been slightly out of round. So were they undersized to begin with and a different thickness of patching was used? If they were that hard why can't you use a WQWW ball?

[supertodd]

I'm casting lee 50 cal real 320 grn bullet for my traditions evolution rifle. It will be used on elk this year and I have a some stick on wheel weights I separated from the clip ons. I know the stick-on is softer than regular clip-on wheel weights.

[fouronesix]

Well, in my experience pure or near pure lead is best for most conicals and for sure hollow base minies. I could go either way with patched roundballs. The positive side of using slightly harder round balls for hunting would be to help prevent over-expansion and loss of penetration for larger sized game at close ranges/higher impact velocities. For accuracy and consistency I'd lean toward pure or near pure lead. I have enough pure lead to last a lifetime- so not worried about using it for all roundball shooting. My best answer for the question in the OP would be to go ahead and 'speriment with the WW for patched roundball and if it shoots to your standards of accuracy- then use it! I don't know if you'll be hunting deer or just paper or in what caliber, but if it shoots accurately, there is that plus side for hunting. I can attest to and as a witness to- a 45 cal soft lead roundball shot at close range/higher impact velocity into the shoulder of a deer sometimes does not penetrate into the vitals- leading to crippling loss. Forget about something the size of elk, as the odds for crippling loss greatly increase. Once 54 cal roundball size is reached, in my experience, the chances of inadequate penetration greatly decrease and so on as the caliber increases.

I've seen, can't remember where, some high speed photos of patched, pure lead roundballs just leaving a rifle's muzzle. Yes, they do obturate some as the short, bore contact shank is quite visible in the photos. Just something to ponder as it relates to the patch, accuracy, twist, rifling depth, charge weight, type of powder, etc. How all that pertains to accuracy or ballistics and so on- I don't know.

s.todd,
Just read your last post which was simultaneous to mine^^^
Yep, just shoot the REALs and see how accurate they are. For elk, a 50 cal REAL will do fine- but the other half of the clean kill equation is shot placement/accuracy.

[waksupi]

I've been shooting wheel weights in round ball form for over 40 years. I've managed to win three world championships over the years, and a few other shoots with them. Also managed to kill lots of game with them. I would never use them in an elongated projectile or revolver.

[dondiego]

What Waksupi said! When I got my first ML rifle in 1965 I wasn't told that wheel weights wouldn't work in ML. I proceeded to cast a bunch of .440 balls and went shooting. I can't remember ever winning any World Championships...........can't remember ever shootin in any though either ......but you never know.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have shot ww in my 50 cals. They shot as good as softer lead. I know this would be not easy but if you could cast them just before you use them.Maybe a day before,they would still be very soft.They do harden up after a few days to a couple of weeks.The hardness almost twice as much. Also don't water quench any as they will get really hard then.
n.h.schmidt

[Omnivore]

The positive side of using slightly harder round balls for hunting would be to help prevent over-expansion and loss of penetration...

In my experience hunting with 50 cal pure lead round ball, there is no expansion on impact. Two or three recovered balls showed very little deformation, including one that penetrated 25 inches through a deer and stopped under the hide on the far side. I commented that I thought I could probably re-load the same ball and fire it again. That's pushing them with 110 grains Goex 2F. I understand the expectation of expansion, as I expected it too. It's just that my observation says otherwise. The ball can cut ribs and penetrate scapulae, and not deform significantly. Bigger bones, I would imagine, could of course be another matter.

[fouronesix]

So your point would be? Softer lead roundballs penetrate better than harder lead roundballs because the anecdote about 50 cal soft lead roundballs passing through deer proves it?

[mooman76]

Allot of older guys swear you can't use anything but soft lead for RBs. Most of them if not near all have never shot anything but soft lead or maybe only tried it once so since they have been shooting for allot of years people tend to take it as gospel. When I first started I was tight on funds so the only lead I could afford was reclaimed lead and WWs. I did well and won a few shooting contests. I generally shoot soft now because I have it and save the harder lead for center fire.

[Pooch]

Soft lead only here.

[jonk]

Some good advice given, but to add one more thing: pure lead is a must in minie balls and maxi balls and undersized regular bullets as the powder has to be able to bump up the projectile on firing. Too hard of lead, it just cuts gas around it, leading to leading, pure accuracy, and poor results. In a revolver, you need to be able to shave a ring of lead; too hard, it puts a lot of stress on the gun to do this. For patched round balls though, with a proper fitting patch most of the deformation is to the patch itself- you don't WANT the ball to distort much. That being the case, harder lead- though not TOO hard- isn't as much of an issue. Might some guns prefer hard vs. soft or vice versa? Sure, but there's a lot more leeway, as the bullet doesn't have to bump up or swage down or get shaved or whatever.

In my breechloaders, I can also shoot hard lead as it, like any other gun, swages down on firing.

[DIRT Farmer]

As I said, In my guns and the way I load. I am not a world championship shooter with rifles but shoot with some though.

[Lead Fred]

I only shoot pure number one lead through my 45 cal
never tried anything else

[Boerrancher]

I shoot the same lead for PRBs as I do out of my center fire rifles, a 50/50 alloy of pure and WW. I get good accuracy, good penetration and it doesn't destroy a lot of meat. My 20ga trade gun loves PRBs made of that alloy with heavy pillow ticking for patches. It will out shoot many rifles out to 80 yards. The best advice I can give you is play around with your alloy and keep copious notes as to what shoots better, then take it hunting and see how it performs, hence the reason for the notes. It may take several years to find the most accurate and best hunting alloy.

Best wishes,

Joe

[shdwlkr]

Well all I can say is over the 40 plus years I have been playing with muzzle loaders is I have found that if the lead you have you can dent with your finger nail it will work.

The trick with lead for muzzle loaders is it needs to be soft so to speak and if you can take your finger nail and leave a mark it is soft enough to use in your muzzle loader.

I have used ww that were hard for rb as it is the patching that really is in contact with the rifling also you can go to a smaller size and take up the difference with your patching material.

One thing is for certain no one can tell you what to use and how it will work in your muzzle loader as most are unique. I have had several over the years from the same company even so all that can be said is that yes ww, coww can be used to make rb's but how well they will work in your muzzle loader only you can answer that question.

Have fun and see what works for you

[R.M.]

If you cast REALs from WW,you'd best carry a mallet with you. Those suckers are hard to get started.

[Omnivore]

Softer lead roundballs penetrate better than harder lead roundballs because the anecdote about 50 cal soft lead roundballs passing through deer proves it?

I never said that. I'm saying what I said, which was that if a soflt lead 50 cal ball (driven pretty hard) deforms significantly on impact with tissue I've never seen any evidence of it. That is all. Two recovered balls and a half dozen exit wounds that looked just like the entrance wounds is a little bit more than an anecdote. So I'm saying, if you want to infer something, that the terminal ballistics of a soft lead .50 ball and a harder lead .50 ball are more than likely indistinguishable UNLESS, MAYBE you hit bone that's heavier than white tail deer ribs, which I alluded to earlier, in which case the harder lead may prove to penetrate better, but that last bit is speculation (I've never managed to hit heavy bone, much less compare the results thereof between soft and harder lead).

Furthermore I find the lack of significant deformation curious, as I and obviously most everyone else, would expect major deformation at these 44 Magnum-range velicities.

[supertodd]

Is roof flashing lead soft enough for R.E.A.L. Bullets. My post kinda got taken over by guys talking about round balls-I'm not shooting round balls.

[Beerd]

Probably.
The soldered joints might contain some tin, but that's not a bad thing.
..

[dondiego]

All of the flashings that I have melted are soft enough for REAL's.

[supertodd]

Thanks Dondiego and Beerd. I have 8 lbs of that lead I will make some bullets out of it

[Buzzard II]

I prefer dead soft lead for muzzleloaders (roofing flashing is my favorite). I use the harder alloys in center fire pistol and rifle. Too old to change my habits now!

[idahoron]

I shoot paper patched conicals. I test my lead and I only keep bullets if the lead is an appropriate hardness. I don't like virgin pure lead for bullets. I like them to be hardened to about 6 or 7 BHN for my 50 and about 8 for my 45. I do not use wheel weights of any kind for my ML bullets. I will and do shoot them in the 45 auto. But these days most wheel weights are steel or zinc. I have made a few sinkers with zinc. It is not that great to work with. Ron

[Jon]

Maybe I'll save my really soft lead for my revolver if I can use range scrap lead for my .50 ML.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

If you cast REALs from WW,you'd best carry a mallet with you. Those suckers are hard to get started.
you have to smack the short starter good a few times with the palm of your hand but after that they go down just fine , the accuracy was fine at 50 yards I didn't get out any farther to know

not sure they are all that much harder to start than a tight patched ball , my hand sure gets sore with a few dozen of them

[Huntsman]

Yes it is. If you are just casting RBs then even WWs will work if that is all you have but you need the soft lead for conicals.

Aslong as your patch is thin enough, 10 -12 thou
At least thats what I noticed

[Shyoldman]

I started Shooting a 50 TC in 1970, have shot nothing but WW in it. Killed everything I wanted and hit everything I wanted. In my ROA I shoot nothing but stickons, they are pure lead,hard to ring the WW. BUT other than loading, the harder lead is ok for the ROA too, still softer than the J word, and I understand it to be the same barrel. I never worried about it just made me own and shot everything

[masscaster]

Pure Lead - 30:1 for Minie's\Maxi's\Cap & Ball Revolvers.
Round Ball in ML's really doesn't matter provided the proper patch size is used.
Marbles work great for short yardage plinking. :)

Make sure and watch those Stick-Ons closely as they're not Pure Lead anymore.
The old solid long ones are still good, but alot of the segmented ones are not.