BPCRS Target and rule changes?

[Dragoon 45]

I hope this is a wild rumor. Has anyone heard anything about the NRA changing the rules on silhouettes from knock-down to swingers? I am getting this info second hand, but supposedly the BPCRS Nationals at Raton are doing away with the traditional silhouette targets next year and are going to replace them with swingers. And if this is going to happen, what will that do to local matches which may not be able to afford to convert to the new type targets?

Again I hope this is just some type of wild rumor. But I have not seen any of the results from this years matches yet or any proposed rule changes that might have been discussed there.

[country gent]

Both of the ranges I shoot shilloettes on use swingers. Only one target fo each shooter and shoot it 10 times. They hang from short chains. Saves on range space and allows smaller ranges to run more shooters.

[EDG]

With a swinger how do they insure the load was on target enough for a "knock down".
Do all hits count - even from something like a 38-55?

[John Boy]

Do all hits count - even from something like a 38-55? If the swinger wiggles, presume - book it, a knock down.
Don't believe all ranges that have silhouette matches will convert to all swingers. Ridgway for instance has 4 silhouette match ranges and the latest one is a highbore 700 - 1000yd. Match attendance is fantastic

[Lead pot]

This will get the .38 calibers shooting this game. Probably a lot of hollowing and jerking to get this change. Now they don't have to worry about getting it knocked over.

[EDG]

I can see the lighter recoiling combos will take over unless there a power factor involved.
BPCR with a 32-40?


This will get the .38 calibers shooting this game. Probably a lot of hollowing and jerking to get this change. Now they don't have to worry about getting it knocked over.

[Don McDowell]

Haven't heard anything about strictly swingers, but I do know there is a push towards knockdown targets at some ranges that hinge on the bottom so a simple pull of the lever will set them back into the upright position. Saves a lot of need of target setters and is probably quicker, and not so much worrying about "hardset" and mulitiple falls from a wobbly rail etc..

[Dragoon 45]

Like I said I hope this is just a wild rumor. I got hit out of the blue with this, at a local gun show this morning, where I ran into some of the shooters in our local matches. I am the Match Director for our local matches and have already received some questions about this and I don't have a clue if this is true or not. All the comments I have gotten so far is negative in the extreme about this idea. Our next match is coming up the first of the month and I was hoping to be able to either tell shooters this is just a rumor or at least have a clear idea of what is actually being proposed.

I am going to call the NRA about this tomorrow, but if experience is anything to go by, I might get an answer by late Sept.

[Dragoon 45]

In theory that would be a good idea, but at our gun club, with some of the idiots we have, they will have something like that totally destroyed in about a week. We have to keep our silhouettes under lock and key, or they will have holes blown in them with AP ammo within hours.


Haven't heard anything about strictly swingers, but I do know there is a push towards knockdown targets at some ranges that hinge on the bottom so a simple pull of the lever will set them back into the upright position. Saves a lot of need of target setters and is probably quicker, and not so much worrying about "hardset" and mulitiple falls from a wobbly rail etc..

[Don McDowell]

I would think with the tipover system you could lay those targets down at the end of a match and lock them in the down position so the idjut sob's couldn't get them up to shoot them?

[TXGunNut]

I don't really have a dog in this fight but if swingers become the norm the next logical step is paper targets. Hinged targets may be easier than traditional targets but can imagine they present their own problems and maintenance challenges.
OTOH how many BPCR shooters have retired because their old bones & joints can't take the punishment any more? How many more would play the game if a .38 or .40 would do the job? Looks like this is a matter of tradition VS getting more shooters into the game. In spite of the rich tradition of the sillywet sport I think I know which side will prevail.

[Don McDowell]

There's a lot of folks swears by the 38-50 in the sillouettes, and the 40-65 has been the gun behind the guy getting the national championship more than once...
Time and logistics is the biggest problem match director types run into. Getting enough help to run a match smoothly isn't an easy thing to do, so anything that will streamline the process...

[kokomokid]

You may shoot the hanger (sighter) animal five times sighting in and then have to come back to it when half your animal are blown down by wind. With that many splatters on the hanger makes it hard on spotter and score keeper. A post hit shakes the animal and makes a hit noise, hard to tell your shooter that you don't know! LB

[John Boy]

We have to keep our silhouettes under lock and key, or they will have holes blown in them with AP ammo within hours.
Ridgway has 4 silhouette ranges, each with 10 banks and the steel is available 24x7. There has been next to zero damage. One of the reasons why I drive 8 hrs OW and spend a week there
Reason? Daily, there is a responsible club member at the range. As an alternative: a Range Officer or digital security cameras?

[Baja_Traveler]

Our silhouettes at Pala are up all the time, not many holes in them - but there are a few. Harold makes sure to keep bright orange targets up for the full metal jacket guys to shoot at. I definitely wouldn't like a non-reactive target - that would take away 33% of the enjoyment of shooting the game...

1/3 - Recoil therapy
1/3 - Hearing the ring
1/3 - watching it fall

[Dragoon 45]

Don, I could tell horror stories all day long about the damage our range gets on an almost daily basis. We have controled access, a gate card system, but don't have the finances to put a range master at the range every day. If something is where some of these idiots can get at it, even if it is disabled or locked in place, they will figure out some way to damage or destroy it.

[Don McDowell]

Don, I could tell horror stories all day long about the damage our range gets on an almost daily basis. We have controled access, a gate card system, but don't have the finances to put a range master at the range every day. If something is where some of these idiots can get at it, even if it is disabled or locked in place, they will figure out some way to damage or destroy it.

Sounds to me more like that club needs to get the sheriff's dept involved and press and pursue charges of felony property distruction , and criminal trespass, and unauthorized use of a firearm....

[jbs4570]

Back to Dragoon 45's original question. You're hearing the latest rumor of the month. There has not been any discussion in the NRA Silhouette Committee about anything like this. Swingers have been used, even at the National Championship level, when wind conditions won't let the targets stand on their own. Besides, makes no sense. Ever tried to spot a .45 hole in a paper target at 500 meters? I have seen some targets and stands modified for auto stand up. I believe OKC has done this on their handgun silhouettes. Makes sense. Fast. Probably much more expensive to do on a 500 meter range. I'll let you know if this subject is brought up at the next committee meeting. Doubt if it will be.
Thanks,
Joe Scott
NRA Silhouette Committee Member

[Lead pot]

It wouldn't be hard to set up Air Pneumatics or Hydraulic to reset the silhouettes for each bank. It would greatly move the match along. WE use the air pneumatics for the pistol targets and it wouldn't be any harder to set the critters. If you can get the help putting it together the cost layout will be low.
About the only time you need to go down range is for a quick paint job maybe after 5-6 relay shots.

[Dragoon 45]

Thank you for the info. I was hoping this was just a wild rumor and I am glad it is. I will pass this on at our next match and hopefully put this to rest. There were a couple of fairly worked up shooters going on about this and I frankly was at a loss as to what to tell them.


Back to Dragoon 45's original question. You're hearing the latest rumor of the month. There has not been any discussion in the NRA Silhouette Committee about anything like this. Swingers have been used, even at the National Championship level, when wind conditions won't let the targets stand on their own. Besides, makes no sense. Ever tried to spot a .45 hole in a paper target at 500 meters? I have seen some targets and stands modified for auto stand up. I believe OKC has done this on their handgun silhouettes. Makes sense. Fast. Probably much more expensive to do on a 500 meter range. I'll let you know if this subject is brought up at the next committee meeting. Doubt if it will be.
Thanks,
Joe Scott
NRA Silhouette Committee Member

[Lead pot]

Oh Boy here we go again :smile:
Ever hear of leverage? :grin:

[Don McDowell]

They invented this really neat stuff, they call it electric wire, and you can even rent really neat machines, they call trenchers, that can dig ditches about as fast as a feller can walk....
Of course then there's the stuff like they're working on at the Sierra Vista range, where they use solar charged batteries for electric over hydraulic motors...
With the technology available today, target systems are really only limited by how far back in the stoneage someone wants to keep their head buried in their xxxx

[country gent]

Turning targets for pistol matches have been in use for years and arnt teriby expensive to build there are even some portables that are radio controlled units. the only diffrence would be the length of the wire carrying power and the control wire to the target line. Everything else is figuring the right cylinder and stroke with the resivour and pump. I seen one set up camera down range aimed at target reciever on the line next to shooter for spotting bullet holes. No wires camera /battery was a self contained unit laptop was it self and a sender reciver. I spoke to him about it and he smiled and replied at 500+ yards I dont have to hire a kid to work pits for me.It was a neat system. self setting targets would be doable. But the painting between relays would still need to be done by hand. Swingers are the same.

[RMulhern]

If there's $$$$$ involved....guess which way it'll go!!
Don't have any dogs in this race but I've never even liked the thought of the game! It's supposed to be about 'who's the best rifleman'....not who's the best spotter working! I've always felt that it would be OK possibly to use a spotter to get a guy on target but after that....'You're on your own Bubba'!! The way the rules are now....it's a team match...not an individual match! As an aside.....the swingers seem to make more sense than current rules!

[Don McDowell]

I think the operative words in the post above are " I HAVE been"....
Of course as typical per internet fashion, the only guy that knows anything is the one doing the longest loudest posting.
No one here in this thread has said that changing target systems is mandatory, no one here in this thread has denied or tried to get away from the cost...
It's just to dang bad folks in this day and age of the internet have forgotten about what it's like to have a conversation.
Of course those of us that donate 100's of dollars every year to the Friends of the NRA do so knowing that no club any where is going to want to apply for a grant for upgrades to their ranges.....
Rules can and are changed constantly, especially when it comes to meeting the growing concern of being able to keep a match going. Very true bpcrs has met it's Zenith and rants like the one above are a big factor in that Zenith.
Rick Mulhern, there's still time for you to get to Byers on Friday for the High Plains Challenge and shoot without a spotter. Matter of fact there is no match anywhere that you are required to use a spotter. Still plenty of time to enter the bptr match in Raton. The Great Plains Regional in Tappan Hill KS, is a month away, be sure and bring along a 22 rifle, those 22 bpcrs are a real hoot and growing in popularity. So time to get away from the house out in public and lets see what you really got.:mrgreen:

[Lead pot]

Don.

I knew this was coming. just let it set.

On the brighter side; I'm going to spend some time loading some real .22 black powder rounds both of us to shoot a .22 blkp swinger silhouette match. That would make it a real BP .22 match. :drinks:

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I got my ammo loaded for Byers, and partially ready for Raton.
Shoot well at Lodi my friend, I'll give you a call Saturday and we can compare notes.

[Lead pot]

I always shoot well if I hit paper or iron or not! I always hit something:drinks:

[country gent]

This economy has all the diffrent disciplines numbers down. The National NRA matches at Camp Perry Handgun ( bullseye). Smallbore rifle High Power ( both service rifle and match rifle), and Long Range were down to almost half the competitiors there were in the past. People cant afford the travel expenses, rooming and meals, entry fees, and all the other expenses. Many have been forced to change jobs and dont have the time off available. The change complaints went on in High power also. A semi auto rifle will never shoot with the scores needed ( when he grand became available to civilliands), A rifle with full auto will never be competitive ( the M14/M1A), and the mouse round will never be competitive at 600yds ( The M16/AR 15). Now about all you see on the line is M16/ar15s or variants, even the match rifles are built on this platform. BPCR is going thru the same changes and when the economy does actually recover the sports will pick up some also. Young shooters are at the mercy of Mom and Dads income also. WHen range chairman at the local club I would post a work Party and have more people than I could use show up. There were engineers tradesman contractors factory workers. The trick is to find their skills and use them in that way. We built several bridges accross the creek the engineers desighned them for us free of charge. The club members built them ubder supervision of the engineers. I can say when I was there the clunb membeers were very supportive.
As to BPCR it is an expensive sport to be competitive in, Rifle, loading equipment ( which may be special order), Spotting scope, casting equipment and those skills) sights sets, Then all the little things like cross sticks stools bags powder ect ect ect. WHen I show up with the sharps or hepburn at the local club they always generate intrest among the other shooters especially when the smoke and confetti flies. Right now the economy recession is the biggest issue. People just cant afford the outlay. Another issue is the people who arnt willing to take the new comer under his wing and offer help. I have no problem with encouraging a club member to get down behind my rifles and give it a try,3-4 rounds later they are showing intrest.I have seen this in bullseye pistol, High Power rifle, Long range, And smallbore. We need to help push or guide shooters into the diffrent sports disciplines. AT our club we have a begginners day where new members can show up and see try with borrowed equipment and an experienced shooter for coach. A few always come back for the local matches. Juniors are always a plus and reaally worked with. I have shot one shillouette match 2 weeks ago. Im going to my second this sunday. My rifle is a 45-90 C Sharps Hepburn. My Sharps ( 45-70) is loaned out to a new shooter, He will be there also. I have MS and balance issues, I have called match director to get permission to shoot offhand sitting down and offhand from the waist up. Saves the risk of falling due to balance issues. But Im having fun and enjoying the new skill sets.Don and several others have been very helpfull in getting me to this point.

[RMulhern]

I think the operative words in the post above are " I HAVE been"....
Of course as typical per internet fashion, the only guy that knows anything is the one doing the longest loudest posting.
No one here in this thread has said that changing target systems is mandatory, no one here in this thread has denied or tried to get away from the cost...
It's just to dang bad folks in this day and age of the internet have forgotten about what it's like to have a conversation.
Of course those of us that donate 100's of dollars every year to the Friends of the NRA do so knowing that no club any where is going to want to apply for a grant for upgrades to their ranges.....
Rules can and are changed constantly, especially when it comes to meeting the growing concern of being able to keep a match going. Very true bpcrs has met it's Zenith and rants like the one above are a big factor in that Zenith.
Rick Mulhern, there's still time for you to get to Byers on Friday for the High Plains Challenge and shoot without a spotter. Matter of fact there is no match anywhere that you are required to use a spotter. Still plenty of time to enter the bptr match in Raton. The Great Plains Regional in Tappan Hill KS, is a month away, be sure and bring along a 22 rifle, those 22 bpcrs are a real hoot and growing in popularity. So time to get away from the house out in public and lets see what you really got.:mrgreen:

Don

YOU KNOW....that my prone shooting/competitive days are over.....HOWEVER I have read much about the various issues at hand as discussed above and as an outsider looking in....it may be that I, as well as other folks can, and have seen some issues that need to be addressed. There MAY HAVE BEEN a lot of prospective shooters that have had the idea of participating in the BPCR Silhouette Matches that have taken a look at how things/rules apply and NOT tried the game on that account! And it may be that some say 'good riddance'; we don't need those guys anyway and each time that I have seen some new ideas broached (within the confines of forums I visit toward this subject) with the possibility of attracting more shooters....there's a big brouhaha arise such as now and the common way of those that wish to stay with the 'status quo' is to come back at those that have made suggestions with belittling comments!

Good luck at Byers!

[Lead pot]

CG You are right.

The expenses to make the Nationals is very high, I will someday make the match. Just getting to Raton or Phoenix and back home will eat up a $1000. bill not counting the rest of the expenses.

[country gent]

Lead Pot when I was competeing in NRA High power rifle It was roughly 88 miles to Camp Perry for them one way. I stayed in a hutment ( at the timre was $6.00 a night). I went thru $1000.00 in 2 weeks between meals match entry fees and such not including commercial row and stocking up for the following year. Match shooting at the higher levels isnt cheap, and then you throw in ammo gear and rifle. To be competitive and improving the practice ammo is a cost to be realized. LOL. WIth this economy and people forced into diffrent jobs it is taking its toll.

[Don McDowell]

Rick you can shoot these matches sitting off the crosssticks:brokenima
I think if you look close at the google maps there's an airstrip close to that range at Byers... Let me know your eta, the shooting starts at 0830 Friday.
We could squad together for Raton. Last time we shot together you were tearing things up.. Like to see that happen when we didn't have to shovel snow off the firing line.:drinks:


Country Gent most excellent point about the expense shutting/slowing down participation. To travel to a weekends match and taking the camper is roughly a 4$ bill every 10 miles traveled.... Doesn't take a trip very far from home to make just the fuel expense somewhere north of 200. Young folks and the expense that it costs just to raise kids now don't really stand a chance of being able to fully compete in bpcr or a lot of other shooting sports. Not sure how the competition is going to stay viable if there's no new blood coming in.

[RMulhern]

Rick you can shoot these matches sitting off the crosssticks:brokenima
I think if you look close at the google maps there's an airstrip close to that range at Byers... Let me know your eta, the shooting starts at 0830 Friday.
We could squad together for Raton. Last time we shot together you were tearing things up.. Like to see that happen when we didn't have to shovel snow off the firing line.:drinks:


Country Gent most excellent point about the expense shutting/slowing down participation. To travel to a weekends match and taking the camper is roughly a 4$ bill every 10 miles traveled.... Doesn't take a trip very far from home to make just the fuel expense somewhere north of 200. Young folks and the expense that it costs just to raise kids now don't really stand a chance of being able to fully compete in bpcr or a lot of other shooting sports. Not sure how the competition is going to stay viable if there's no new blood coming in.

Don

Friday...I will be at the Doc's office having more schitt 'burned off' my noggin! Latest report came yesterday that the other was not cancer....so that was good news! Doc said...."You're gonna have to start wearing a BIG HAT when outside instead of caps! He doesn't know I wore a CalMil crash helmet for 40 frickin years but I guess those other times out in the sun took their toll!

As for the 'new blood'....with 50% of the kids in America today being raised by one parent....many with the female side....it's no wonder, with no male role model to be around that the interest is toward computers/ipods, etc. And the ones that do have a male figure.....some aren't worth the powder and shot that it would take to do away with 'em!! The younger set in school/college who are trying to make their way are saddled with gov't loan payback and are doing their best to make it all work and even if they have a shooting interest....unless they're from a very affluent family that can help...well...shooting is a non-event! And the younger couples with young children are working their azzes off just trying to stay ahead of taxes, school cost, food, house notes, etc. etc.!! We must admit that WE ARE DINOSAURS and once we're gone....that's it!! The current rage is F/TR and F/Open shooting and that appeals to me less than does BPCRS!!

I'll admit...I'm a CURMUDGEON and I guess that comes with age..for some folks anyway! I have a feeling however that I'm not by myself!!:wink:

[Don McDowell]

Rick I've had one foot in the grave twice this year, and they kicked me back out both times.... I ain't quitting that easy.

I honestly belief the NRA blackpowder committee seriously needs to give some consideration to opening up to the subs.. I know bp is easy to get but some folks just can't figure it out.
I also think that to even stand a chance of keeping the bpcrs and other disciplines open they are going to have to consider a class where folks could shoot with handirifles and the like. A young family can sort of afford a buffalo classic to get started,but a Sharps or decent hiwall represents a months salary....But if they can get a relatively inexpensive start...
The bpcrs crowd is going to have to expand their horizons a bit or there won't be anybody around to save the last of the targets when the last of the neandertahls crawls off in a hole to die..

[Don McDowell]

The 200 meter ranges and the like are what is driving the 22 bpcr matches in high gear. That and it's a ton of fun, and the ammo is cheap and easy to haul around.