Die questions

[customcutter]

I am going to be starting on my core seating die soon and looking for a little info. I used a 7/32 drill bushing for my de-rimming die and a .214 push pin, and it is making jackets at .219. I have a 3/16 drill bushing to use for a core swaging die if needed, but plan on casting my cores.

What I/D should the core seat die be? Should the core seating pin be the same diameter or slightly larger than the .214 pin used for de-rimming? Just thinking if it's the same size then lead might possibly squeeze by when the jacket starts expanding due to seating process?

thanks,
CC

[Reload3006]

my core seat die ID is .2238 and my core seat punch for Rimfire jackets is .205

[Cane_man]

core seat die ID die should get you to within 0.001 or 0.002 of your point forming die...

best way to do this imo is to drill out your core seat die undersize and lap up until you are getting cores to size the way you want them...

i think i drilled out my core with a 7/32, lapped to smooth it out and started at 0.221, then i just started seating cores, checked the OD of the core, then kept repeating the process of lapping-seating-checking until my core OD of the 22LR case was 0.223... my punch OD is 0.200 and it is radiused a tiny but, and this punch will be much shorter in length than your derim punch... you can start your punch larger like 0.203 and then size it down until you get the result you want... this was somewhat of a hard die to make for me due to the limitations i was working with...

the top eject punch is a tricky dude to make because it has to stop the core and then eject it! at least it was for me a hard one to design and make and i am sure my funky design is the most ridiculous one like it in the history of swaging :oops: and there are much easier ways to do it, dont laugh it really does work:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-seat-die003_zpsefb4f0d6.jpg

all those pieces fit concentrically within one another, and get tightened down inside the die (on top)... the plunger gets pushed up and gets stopped by the top bolt, then the punch pushes down on the plunger to push the core out

the pieces from left to right: eject punch, threaded top stop punch, cylinder for plunger, plunger, core seating die, bottom punch (on top of the string is the die that threads into the press and holds all the pieces together)

good luck i am sure you will come up with something simpler and easier to use! :happy dance:

[Cane_man]

if you are making a 'real' core seating die this is from the Ted Smith SAS pdf with the punch on the right side:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/CoreSeaterSAS_zpsfee0c64f.gif

[customcutter]

3006

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious about the size of your seating punch, I noticed it is only .205. Have you noticed any lead squirting up around the tip of the punch when you are seating cores? If so do you think it has any effects on the bullet? Is the die a commercial die or your own make?

thanks,
CC

[customcutter]

Cane,

Thanks for the pics and the drawings. I have the Ted Smith PDF saved in my favorites and plan on reading it one more time (I have read it once in entirety since I made that statement previously). There is indeed a lot more going on in this die than I had considered. It looks like the core seating section is lapped the same diameter from top to bottom, and the tip of the ejection plunger rest in the top? I think you made it this way just so you could use the Lee die housing again.:smile: I'm wondering what part of Ted Smiths design you couldn't make with the lathe?

I noticed your core seating punch is .200? Do you notice any lead squeezing up past the sides of the punch while core seating? My concern is that if it is not concentric then accuracy could be affected, or that an air pocket could be formed when the point forming die is used? I was thinking that the core seating punch would need to be at least the diameter of the de-rimming punch and maybe slightly larger.

thanks,
CC

[Reload3006]

my dies are RCE. Yes I am a tool maker but I dont have the time to do it myself. So I dont mind paying for the tools. No I have not had any issues with the lead flashing past the punch. at least not on 22lr jackets. I have had some flashing issues on j4 and sierra jackets until if find the right punch I have several different sizes from .199 to .205

[Cane_man]

There is indeed a lot more going on in this die than I had considered.

seems pretty straightforward at first glance but when you try to make one it takes some thought...


It looks like the core seating section is lapped the same diameter from top to bottom, and the tip of the ejection plunger rest in the top?

yes, and make sure the tip of the punch is dead nuts square so you have a nice square base on your bullet... the punch fits inside the core seating die and gets pushed up by the base of the case and then stops at the top so the core can seat... so the punch travels the length of the die as you force the case upward


I think you made it this way just so you could use the Lee die housing again.:smile:

yes this is a die i made and designed, i was limited by using the Lee die housing, so i had to do some work arounds, but it is the same mechanical principle as the Ted Smith design... the punch on the right of his sketch gets set inside the die and moves up and down, i believe it has a thread section on the bottom to hold it in, and a threaded "cap" to hold it on top and keep it from being pushed out


I'm wondering what part of Ted Smiths design you couldn't make with the lathe?

you can make the entire Ted Smith design on the lathe if you are competent with threading, which i am not so i do my work-arounds


I noticed your core seating punch is .200? Do you notice any lead squeezing up past the sides of the punch while core seating?

lead will flow up the sides if you put too much pressure on it and it will flow out of the case... this is one of my improvements i will make this winter is to make this punch a little larger so the lead won't do that as much... like i said start big and turn it down as needed until you get the results you are looking for... if you don't seat the core with enough pressure the sides can get wavy looking and you don't want that... the 0.200 works fine for now but i want to make it larger so i can really crank down on it without the lead flowing out... i would say the 0.200 is just barely acceptable


My concern is that if it is not concentric then accuracy could be affected, or that an air pocket could be formed when the point forming die is used? I was thinking that the core seating punch would need to be at least the diameter of the de-rimming punch and maybe slightly larger.

my finished bullets are all within 0.0004 in regards to being concentric, but i use a sizing die at the end and run them thru that about three times to take care of my low level of craftsmanship...

[customcutter]

3006

Thanks, I've got a garage full of machinist tools, but no training, except for what I find on forums or youtube. I've been looking off and on for a school this past year. The closest one is an hour drive away, 5 nights a week and over $6000. I can make a lot of mistakes for that kind of money. I could have bought a set of dies for a little more money than I'll probably spend, but I think of it as in investment in learning the skills.:smile:

[customcutter]

Cane:

I thought that you were doing threading on your lathe. I had never done any until I started this project, but it's easy if you have a QC gear box. Tubal Caine (Mr Pete) on you youtube has some excellent videos. That is a pretty extensive work around that you did. I think Ted Smith's die is only threaded on the bottom. I knew I bought those large taps last month at the flea market for something.:smile: So the core seating punch needs to be large enough to seat the core with enough pressure to get the wrinkles out of the case, but adjusted to the point that you are not flashing lead past the tip. I saw another post with the wrinkled jackets and wondered what was going on, till I read the posters explanation. At 55gr are the points of your bullets filled with lead, or is there a slight hollow spot?

thanks,
CC

Edit: What is your concentricity before running the bullets through the sizing die? Also what size are they?

[Cane_man]

no threading how about that! i could learn how to do it if i was using a decent lathe but i made it work using the Lee die body to hold the inserts

at 55gr the lead flows out of the meplat, i can get 54gr to fill it up without going out, i like it at 53.5gr i dont have to worry about overflowing and the very tip top is hollow...

not sure what the eccentricity is before final sizing, but the shank has a 0.008 taper on it! i was final sizing just to take the taper out and the eccentricity was just a side benefit...

final sizing is 0.2241 +/- 0.0002 around the diameter

[customcutter]

Another question about core seating dies. What is the depth of the core in a 55gr bullet once it is seated? I plan on making this an adjustable die, but would like to be close on my dimensions. Also is there any spring back from the die dimension to the seated core dimension? The reason I'm asking is there is a drill bushing available that is .2244 tolerance +.0001-.0004. For $13 it would save a lot of threading, lapping, etc.

thanks,
CC

[Cane_man]

i don't have any seated cores right now, but they probably sit down ~ 0.20" inside the case?

i don't think i had any spring back, but you don't want to be oversize going into your point forming die... you need the cores to be about 0.2230 to 0.2235 for your 0.2240 point forming die... dont go oversize into the pointing die or you will get really good at using dry wall screws to remove stuck cases!

when you are lapping, after heat treating, just take a seated core and push it up about half way up into the die, just enough to see what the shank diameter is then push it out... doing it this way you wont get stuck cases, and you will know that when you are close to 0.224 you can push the seated core all the way up into the die...

you will need to make your eject punch, i started with the McMaster punches but they did not work out very well so i had to make my own and use music wire, no problems since i made the switch... this punch took several hours to make:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/eject-punch002_zps953c2ef5.jpg

if you have to make another pointing die you may want to consider a 3/64 eject hole, not any harder to make

[customcutter]

3/64, you gotta be kidding! So far I've tried 1/16 on 3 different dies, and broke the drill every time while step drilling. I have managed to drill them out by drilling from the opposite end and pushing the broken tip out. Don't tell me you drilled out that entire punch pin and the set screw is only holding the music wire:groner:

[Cane_man]

3/64, you gotta be kidding! So far I've tried 1/16 on 3 different dies, and broke the drill every time while step drilling. I have managed to drill them out by drilling from the opposite end and pushing the broken tip out. Don't tell me you drilled out that entire punch pin and the set screw is only holding the music wire:groner:

yep :veryconfu

[customcutter]

Where did you get a 3/64 drill bit that long? It looks like you drilled at least 2" deep.

[Cane_man]

the body of the punch is about 3" long, i had to drill each end... as you guessed the holes did not line up perfectly, when i tried to run the wire through it i found out! i put some lapping compound on the wire and worked the inside until it opened up enough until the wire could go all the way to the top then i was in business...

there are actually two set screws on top of the punch to hold the music wire in place... using a sledgehammer when a finish nail hammer will do, always been accused o dat! hahaha, nothing like over designing

oh ya one more thing... make a 0.2230000000000000 test probe for lapping to see what size your die is, make it accurate! get this done before lapping, this is important!

makes it easy to lap away freely, and you know you dont have to be too careful while lapping so long as the probe does not go inside the die.... i made two probes, one at 0.222 so i could use the 600 grit compound, and then when this 0.222 probe would fit in i only used the 2000 grit and 8000 grit as a fail safe so i would not over lap the precious point forming die...

[customcutter]

Good points Cane Man, I'll try to remember them. Test probes made with a straight shank, or with a full ogive? I'm thinking straight shank section as that will be the critical dimension. Yes it's a whole lot easier taking metal off than it is to put it back on.

I think I've asked this before so forgive me if I have. How did you do the lapping? A chuck in the tailstock on the lathe? Hand held battery operated drill? I'm thinking the tail stock is going to be the best at keeping everything in alignment, and not flaring the shank section of the die. Everything I've read on it (not much) doesn't give a lot of detail on this procedure.

Edit: Does it take that much force to knock the bullets loose? I was thinking of using some 304 stainless wire that I have for the job. Don't know it might bend or flare I guess. Maybe a Lee universal de-priming pin???

[Cane_man]

Good points Cane Man, I'll try to remember them. Test probes made with a straight shank, or with a full ogive? I'm thinking straight shank section as that will be the critical dimension. Yes it's a whole lot easier taking metal off than it is to put it back on.

I think I've asked this before so forgive me if I have. How did you do the lapping? A chuck in the tailstock on the lathe? Hand held battery operated drill? I'm thinking the tail stock is going to be the best at keeping everything in alignment, and not flaring the shank section of the die. Everything I've read on it (not much) doesn't give a lot of detail on this procedure.

Edit: Does it take that much force to knock the bullets loose? I was thinking of using some 304 stainless wire that I have for the job. Don't know it might bend or flare I guess. Maybe a Lee universal de-priming pin???

-test probe just needs to be a straight shank, 2" long or so made out of a 1/4" bolt, and you only need to size the last 1/2" or so

-i chuck the die in the lathe and spin it at 2000 rpm, and insert my bullet laps in there and move them in and out... in the Ted Smith SAS pdf he talks about lapping in great detail describing how to move the lap inside the die, etc. he says you can spin the die or spin the lap, it makes no difference... not sure if you are using your radius attachment to make laps or are you using production bullets? either way, you start small and work your way up... i used three shank diameters for laps: 0.210, 0.215, and 0.220... start small adding lapping compound and you will know when the 0.210 is not taking off anymore material, then move up to the 0.215, rinse and repeat... i only used 3 sizes of laps, but i know some of the pros use upwards of 30! i only know what worked for me...

if your die is smooth with little friction and bullet comes out with a few taps of the hammer... the eject wire may stick inside the lead and it is a simple matter to pull it off when the shank is far enough outside the die... make sure the wire is long enough, i trim it so that is is flush with the end of the die, and when you get to pushing the swaged core all the way up make sure the wire eject punch is out of the way otherwise the tip of the meplat will not form properly...

what is the yield strength of 304SS? it needs to me very high or your wire will bend when you go to tap out the bullet and now you got a stuck bullet... the spring steel (music wire) has a tensile strength of 300,000 psi and a yield strength of 150,000 psi... much higher than HSS or drill rod...

you can find the music wire on ebay, at a music store (maybe, if there is a large one in your area) or buy it from McMaster...

while you are making this die it is inevitable that you get a stuck bullet... if you do there is no need to panic... take the insert out of the die and chuck it in your lathe, then get a center drill and get a small hole centered on the base of the stuck bullet, then get a 1-1/4" dry wall screw and screw it in the hole you just made maybe 3 or 4 turns... at this point you can try to pull the stuck case out buy using some pliars on the head of the screw, or what i usually do is put the die back in my threaded die body in the press and get some pliars then grab onto the dry wall screw and gently tap the frame of the pliars with a hammer and bullet comes right out... hard to explain, but dont panic if you get a stuck bullet its in easy fix...

[customcutter]

Approximately how many bullets in each shank dimension did you use? I would like to use laps made on the radius grinder, but it probably takes close to an hour to make each point, even in soft brass. The HSS D-reamer took even longer. I may have to try and find some bullets to use, but again my concern with using a bullet is attaching it to something and keeping it concentric with the axis of the bullet and what you attach it to. I remember you made a collet to drill a hole in the base of your bullets, but don't remember what or how you attached them.

[Cane_man]

^^^ only used one bullet per size, literally only used 3 production bullets total for lapping...

just center drilled a hole in the base and screwed in a 3" brass wood screw in the base, it wasn't exactly on center but it didn't seem to matter as the shank seems to keep in on center fairly well... i ground off the remaining threads of the brass screw so it wouldnt score the die, but i just used some pliars to grab the head of the brass screw, inserted the lap, and then plunged it inside the die working 1/3 of the bullet at a time... when you first put in a new lap you have to move slowly as the die is opening up as you move forward, if you work it too hard at first it will cut a ring inside your die and i found out you dont want that to happen!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final005_zps6bd58461.jpg

[customcutter]

Thanks Cane,
I guess where I am seeing the wear on the brass screw is where you were gripping with the pliers. Also you only barely screwed the screw into the bullet other wise it would have bulged the base dimension. I guess I can pull a few bullets, as all of mine have been "reloaded". I may even pull some "Vmax's" that I have. I'm still a little worried about keeping the bullet properly aligned with the die, but I'm sure it's not a big deal.

[Cane_man]

the wear you see is where i ground down the threads on the screw so it wouldnt score the die, i gripped the screw on the head with pliars when i was lapping... i can send you 10 bullets or whatever you need to get this job done if you need them, just let me know...

can't remember what i did but i center drilled, not sure if i pilot drilled with 1/8" or not... all i know is don't think the shank dimensions changed but i didnt measure so i dont know for sure...

[Cane_man]

like this, "Okie Lapping 101" or the pliar lapping method if you will... just move the bullet-lap in a little and let it dwell, in a little more and let it dwell, then to the tip and let it dwell... do this over a minute or so and pull it out, wipe all the cr@p off, apply more diamond lapping paste, and do it again, rinse repeat... but remember when you are just starting to use a new lap go slowly and dont force it:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/pliarswaging_zps03178aad.jpg

here the lathe is stationary, but you would be spinning the lathe as fast as you can get it... believe it or not i get really good control with the pliars and i can keep the the whole thing fairly on center...

it really works, look how close i got to matching the production bullet:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0sidebyside_zpse4e51072.gif

[customcutter]

Thanks I can pull some bullets no problems, if I decide to go that route. Didn't think about the screw contacting the die. I'm thinking the farther into the die that the bullet is seated, the farther you have to punch it out. I'm sure the bullet laps will work just have to make up my mind which way I want to go with it.

[customcutter]

Another setback. I drilled and threaded a piece of 1/2" for the core seating section of the die on Saturday evening. Went back out this afternoon to work on the main die body and pulled a quick measurement one the core seating hole. Mind you I drilled so that it would be undersized and I could lap up to size. It measured .228[smilie=b:

No problem I'll chuck up another piece of 1/2" and start over with a "much smaller" drill bit. This one finished out at .211 so I'll have plenty of lapping to do. Went ahead and cut my 20 X 1/2 threads.

Started on the main die body, drilled the tapping hole by the chart on the wall, cut the 7/8 X 14 threads on the OD and hand fitted them to my reloading press bushing and they are nice and tight no wiggle or wobble. Pulled out my tap and die set for the 1/2 X 20 tap tried for about 1/2hr to get the tap to bite in but it doesn't want to start. I even tried using the tailstock chuck to push it in while hand turning the headstock but no luck. I can't find a bushing to fit the tap that will fit my boring bar holder, got every other size but not that one. I guess I'll have to make one. That way I can engage the carriage feed while hand turning the headstock and feed it in under pressure. I wouldn't advise doing it under power but I think I can do it by hand if I'm careful reversing direction frequently. IIRC the annealing process for 4140PH requires a slow drop in temp every hour, so I think annealing is out. I guess I might have to order some 7/8 W-1 or O-1 and resolve a lot of issues. I know I haven't been :not listening:

[Cane_man]

LOL, sorry i just had to laugh because i have been there so many times!

Sure you just dont want to buy a threaded die body from Lee for $14? its alot easier :popcorn: 9/16" round bar drops right in perfectly, just cut to length and drill/ream/lap the inside to whatever is needed...

http://leeprecision.com/images/P/p-2324.jpg

its threaded on the inside 1" to 5/8-fine

[customcutter]

That's too easy, I want to do it the hard way. Actually I want the die body threaded on the top and the bottom, so that I can adjust it accordingly.

[sprinkintime]

3/64, you gotta be kidding! So far I've tried 1/16 on 3 different dies, and broke the drill every time while step drilling. I have managed to drill them out by drilling from the opposite end and pushing the broken tip out. Don't tell me you drilled out that entire punch pin and the set screw is only holding the music wire:groner:
Customcutter, do you know what a pecker drill is, thats the only name I know it by, it used for small drills and operates by your thumb and forfinger, moving it up and down, you have a much better control of the drill pressure,and will cut way down on your breakage. Sprink

[sprinkintime]

Where did you get a 3/64 drill bit that long? It looks like you drilled at least 2" deep.
Customcutter, they make aircraft drills that are 6" long and with a 135 degree point will help you a lot, reversing you part when they intersect with not be true to each other. Sprink

[teddyblu]

Customcutter: I am certain you are using the proper tap, but there are starter taps and bottoming taps and the latter will not start under normal proceedures Just a thought.

[customcutter]

I posted on Homeshopmachinist forum and found out I had used the wrong drill size. I used the drill for 1/2 X 13 NC instead of 1/2 X 20 NF 2/64" makes a big difference. I'll try again this afternoon.:oops:

[Cane_man]

Customcutter, they make aircraft drills that are 6" long and with a 135 degree point will help you a lot, reversing you part when they intersect with not be true to each other. Sprink

sprink, where could i find one of those?

[Prospector Howard]

Your favorite place to buy stuff, Mcmaster Carr. Put: short-flute extended reach drill bit in the "find" bar. I tried to tell you about them at Mcmaster months ago. I also use the wire gauge sizes (the shank part) in Cobalt steel for derim punches. Best derim punch material I've found. Also the cobalt bits drill way better, especially in the smaller sizes to drill for the extractor punch hole.
sprink, where could i find one of those?

[Cane_man]

got it! i'm a little slow sometimes... got me a 3/64 and 1/16 for the 30 cal project this winter

[customcutter]

Prospector, I'm a little slow too. Have you tried the cobalt bits for an ejection punch?

thanks,
CC

Should have said and ejection punch for the point forming die?

[customcutter]

I guess I work hardened the 4140PH even more, when drilling it out, and cutting the external threads. I even oversize drilled the hole and barely got the tap to thread about 1/2" deep. Feels like it's about to break the tap. Time to order that stick of 0-1 or W-1 in 7/8".

[Prospector Howard]

Yes, worked good for me for ejection punches; plenty stiff enough. That's what's so good about those long shanked drill bits. If you cut part of the shank off to use for something, you still have a short drill bit left over for other things (as long as you leave enough shank on it for the drill chuck to grab onto).
Prospector, I'm a little slow too. Have you tried the cobalt bits for an ejection punch?

thanks,
CC

Should have said and ejection punch for the point forming die?

[teddyblu]

Customcutter: If you have a Fastenal store near you check for 01 or w1, they carry a few sizes.

[customcutter]

I think I made some progress today. I found another 1/2 X 20 tap in my tap drawer, and managed to cut threads about 1.25" into the bottom of the die. Tomorrow I'll cut the die body off of the main rod and tap it from the top. Then I can get busy figuring out the dimensions on the ejection punch.

I tried calling Grainger and Fastenal, but both were closed by the time I got in. I checked the Grainger price and they are the highest, Fastenal next, and the lowest was Enco with free shipping on orders over $29. They also have free shipping and 15% off right now on orders over $149. Codes are SHP827 and DIS827. Good till the end of the month IIRC.

[sprinkintime]

Cane man, you can get these drills at Enco, also I think McMaster Carr, they come under (Aircraft Extension Drills)
they are HSS 135 Degree split point 6" long, you can get them either in fractions or number.

Sprink

[sprinkintime]

customcutter; I have been buying my tool steel from Enco for many years, they have alway had the lowest prices for small lots.

Sprink

[MUSTANG]

sprink, where could i find one of those?


You might try here:

http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/

Mustang

[Cane_man]

sprink, mustang, howard - ended up getting it from enco, thanks for the suggestions

cc - looking for your happy dance any day now :happy dance:

[Swede44mag]

Where can I get the Ted Smith PDF?

[Cane_man]

here you go Swede, the best free resource in print on making swaging dies... i think i have read through it 4 or 5 times always picking up new little things each time:

http://www.rtconnect.net/~wjmanley/SAS_Die_making/SASswagedie.pdf

[customcutter]

Fighting the grass, rain, and heat everyday. Heat indexes have been around 110 almost everyday it seems. Just exhausted when I get in. This weekend I've got to get my billing done for Sept. I'm going to try and get a few hours in the garage, before it gets too hot. Sunday all the family is coming over after church for my dad's birthday. Hopefully, next weekend. I can still smell it, it's close.