Wondering what everyone thinks on 40 cal cartridges

[country gent]

Im thinking about another BPCR and am leaning towards a 40 cal. I am considering 40-65 and 40-70 ss Im curious as to thoughts experiences with them as to accuracy performance and brass availability/cost. Also open to other 40 cal cartridges. I am planning on Black powder only no fakes or smokeless powders. Cast bullets only both grease groove and Paper Patched. Ive got the itch for a new rifle Here shortly. I really dont want to get into alot of case forming or super expensive brass. Thanks for the help.

[Don McDowell]

40-65 is an easy cartridge to load and shoot. All you need is a set of 40-65 dies,some 45-70 cases and a rifle with the chamber set up to accept the longer length of the "necked" down case (aka 40-65 ron long). Starline also offers cases trimmed to length for most chambers.
Some folks think the 40-70 straight can be a bit cranky to get to shooting well, but cases can be from blown out 30-40 krag, or trimmed down 405.

[concho]

I have a rem/roller 40/65 and dies from RCBS Blount to resize 45/70 brass it is tack driver !

[kokomokid]

Do your homework before you get a 40-65. Some chamber reamers are ground for a very tight neck like bench rest shooters use. You will find that you really have no SAAMI specs for the 40-65 as Redding dies are made for a much smaller bullet than the .409-.410 that most bpcr shooters use. But they will shoot very well. LB

[RobsTV]

The 38-40 is my favorite 40 cal BPCR. Can use the same molds that I use for modern 40 S&W.

[jlmurphy]

I built a 40 - 65 and found it to be very accurate, but the wind blows the bullets around much more than a .45, I now shoot the 45 - 70.

[lkydvl]

"the wind blows the bullets around much more than a .45"

Try a heavier, longer 40 cal boolit...

40-70 either SBN or straight

or better yet...the 40-82

[ColColt]

Some folks think the 40-70 straight can be a bit cranky to get to shooting well, but cases can be from blown out 30-40 krag, or trimmed down 405.

Having had a difficult time locating 40-70SS cases I decided to get the 30-40 Krag case and attempt to reform. I've read use about 5 gr of Trail Boss and fill the case with corn meal, grease cookie and fire. I don't suppose it matters how much corn meal as that wasn't specified. Also, I'm thinking the case will still be a bit short for the 40-70SS.

With the Shiloh, I don't think .405 cases will work...possibly a rim difference. From what I've gathered, the Shiloh uses the .068" of the Krag case.

[wyoduster]

Not in my 40-70ss... Only the 30-40 krag because of the rim...
But I did find that 405 basic is what I have to have in the 40-90ss.

[ColColt]

If you expand the case neck to open the shoulder it seems to me you'd have to start with something small and work up using several different sizes of expanders in turn as to not crush the case.

[Lead pot]

I have two 40's a .40-65 and a .40-70. Well the .40-65 is now a .40-72. All three of those calibers make the 1K in very good shape and knock over the Irons.
The .40-70, you cant use the .30-40 Krag case because it's to short. You need to stretch that brass first. Just expanding the necks will not get it done.
The .40 basic brass trimmed back to 2.5" will give you a thick case neck wall that will not chamber a .408-9 diameter bullet. You can turn down the case neck if you want to use a GG bullet. A PP bullet is ideal for the cut back .40 basic or the .405 Hornady.
The Hornady brass needs some work also. The base is to tight for my Shiloh chamber and also a little tight on the rim. I made a base swage die and pushed the base diameter in a little and again the .405 brass is to thick for a GG bullet. so if you want to use a GG bullet you will have to turn the necks down. I have no idea what the other rifles other than Shiloh use for chamber specs so maybe the neck or base reductions are not needed.
I read some use the Hornady brass and seat a .408-9 diameter bullet and run it through a sizing die to be able to seat the round and then scratch their heads wondering why it dont shoot or put the blame on the caliber.
Nothing wrong with the .40-70 it will shoot very good if you feed it with a correct load.

[ColColt]

Looks like I have 100 30-40 Krag cases that will sit in the bag. I thought making them 40-70 would be easier than that. I did find someone willing to part with 100 new cases so, I think I'll abandon the 30-40 Krag idea.

[Lead pot]

CC,

There was someone that made dies that went into a loading press for stretching brass, not the KAL unit but just a simple die set that is used with a loading press.
I cant recall who it was that made the dies.

[bigted]

CC,

There was someone that made dies that went into a loading press for stretching brass, not the KAL unit but just a simple die set that is used with a loading press.
I cant recall who it was that made the dies.

get hold of Montana Charlie. seems like he is one that is involved or knows the feller that makes the case stretcher.

[Lead pot]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=175428&CAT=3894

You might look here for .40-70 brass http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=17140&cat=472&page=3
Or do a search for some 9.3x74R brass it is a very close case to the .40-70. The base is a little tight but it is not hard to swage down using a .405 sizing die with the base of the die cut off. http://www.huntingtons.com/store/home.php?cat=275&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=2

[ColColt]

I saw a video on YouTube of someone using that case stretcher from BACO and it didn't look like something I wanted to get into and hoped there would be a better way. I have lucked out on some new brass and of course I'm on the waiting list at BACO, Shiloh and a few other places that currently have it back ordered.

The 9.3x74R case does indeed look like it would be easier to form than the Krag but not sure about the rim thickness/diameter. It seems BACO has about four different listings for 40-70SS brass and only one is listed to be used with Shiloh rifles. Others are for originals or CPA, Meachum rifles or C. Sharps. I don't know why there's not some standard among current rifle makers on this.

I did contact RMC and they'll make it but it's not cheap at 20/$60. I did find some specs on the 9.3x74R brass and it seems the rim is too thin at .052. I think Shiloh's is cut for the .068" rim of the Krag brass. The rim diameter is about .020" smaller.

[Nobade]

The NRA BPCRS open, iron sight, long run record for turkeys was shot with a 40-50SBN (32). I was there....

I have the itch to build up a 45-50 govt myself. Who made your reamer? Do you have a print for it? How about dies - I found some Redding 40-50 SBN dies locally that ought to be able to form cases, and I would likely make the seater myself. Do you have a preference? Anything else you can share? I imagine it sort of like a smaller version of the .461 Gibbs #2 with brass you can actually get. I really like the long neck to have room for whatever wad stack you desire and still room for powder underneath.

-Nobade

[CanoeRoller]

Ballistically, there is almost no difference between the 40-65 and the 40-70. So the choice comes down to whether or not you fool yourself into thinking you are more traditional with the 40-70. Though neither load is accurate to the old days, as we tend to shoot long heavy boolits today, and modern rifling has a quicker twist to stabilize the target rounds we load and shoot today.


If you want a 40-70, you will either have to stretch 30-40 krag brass, trim 405 or 40 basic, or pay a lot of $ for the head stamped brass. You will also have to make sure that the rifle you have made will fit the brass you get your hands on.

You can buy much more affordable brass for the 40-65, or form your own from 45-70 brass. So a bit less cost and hassle, but feels less authentic to many folks.

It all depends on what you want to do.

I shoot a 40-65. So that tells you what I decided to do.

[bigted]

don't be afraid of the bottleneck Sharps cartridges. they are a bit different then the straight shells but they are a hoot and are not the ruination that some think they are.

[rr2241tx]

I had my Shiloh Sharps chambered for the current (short) 40-65 Winchester case. I shoot 65 gr of 3F with a beer carton wad and a 420 gr Paul Jones Creedmoor GG bullet and have had no ammo issues. Be sure what your bore/groove measurements are before you get too far gone as there are .403, .406, .408 and .410 barrels out there and probably others as well and you will need sizing dies to match and a properly sized bullet.

I also have a #1 Heavy barrel marked .40-2 1/10 (40-70 Sharps Bottleneck) that is a .410 barrel with a chamber so long that it takes .45-2 4/10 cases to get anywhere near the throat.

[Nobade]

The 40-70Gov't/40-70-2.1"BN was a Dan Pharris creation (I think). It used full length 45-70 cases reformed in 40-50SBN dies to set the shoulder and neck length. I had a chamber cut to my sample ammo, and the 'smith somehow traced the ammo to bore the chamber, no reamer involved! This was incredibly easy to load, very accurate with ffg Goex, and did not foul. IIRC, I was shooting 70gr under a 410gr boolit.


Thanks! That is a pretty good trick cutting a decent chamber with a boring bar or however he did it. Pretty talented fellow! On a happy note, the 40-50 SBN dies I have had my eye on for a year went on sale today so I have a set now. Looks like it's time to acquire more parts and build another rifle one of these days.

-Nobade