Lyman 'Plains' Rifle .45cal 1:48 twist question

[danyboy]

Just bought a Lyman Plains (not Great Plains) .45cal sold as a kit way back when. Twist rateis 1:48 and been shooting .440 round balls with .017" striped patches and 40gr. triple 7. Accuracy is acceptable. Barrel slugs at .454"bore size and .462" groove size.
I then tried out using Lyman446110 (.446") 346gr. .984" long dry patched to .454" and getting keyholes at 50 yards. Can't figure this Greenhill formula real well. Is it because this bullet is to long for my twist rate ? Can't find any data on the net about this rifle. Some guy said the 1975Lyman Black Powder Handbook would have info on this rifle.
Question: anyone found a reasonably accurate cast conical bullet for this rifle before ?
Thanks

[mooman76]

Yes probably too long. 1/48 isn't very fast a twist for a 45 but should still be doable with a short conical. Sometime increasing the powder charge helps.

[Mr Peabody]

I've got decent results in mine using the Lee Real. The 200gr and the 250gr. I'd Deer hunt with either.

[fouronesix]

The T/C Maxi was designed for that twist out of T/C's version of the same basic rifle with same 48" twist.

What may be a fly in the ointment is your bore specs seem on the large size. Those 45 cal Maxis are usually spec'd pretty close to .450 on the shank and a few thous larger on the top drive band to fit bores that spec close to .450 bore diameter.

I don't think Lyman lists it any more, but they used to make a .454 diameter minie mold. The minie by design doesn't rely on the type of stabilization as noted in the Greenhill formula. If you could find a source for those minies or one of those molds- may be worth trying. Just a thought.

[danyboy]

OK. Tried a shorter one, unsized Lyman 452664 I normally use for my 45 Long Colt. Amazing. At 100 yards with peep sight, I get 1 1/2" groups, 50 gr. Triple7, 1/8" felt wad, crisco in the grease grooves. Not so good at 50 yards. Cleaning after 10 shots and wasn't really dirty. I might give those REAL Lee bullets a try .
Back to the range a day later, same recipe, no grouping. Must be the shooter...

[danyboy]

After some reading, having only .004" deep 6 grooves barrel, I can see why Lyman gave up on this model. Grooves not deep enough for round balls and conical shouldn't be any longer than .440" according to Greenhill Formula and twist rate of 1:48. Mental depression case.

[Zymurgy50]

Find a Minnie ball to try, dead soft lead, big hollow base that expands to fill the rifling. then get a pound of black powder, I would try 3f.

[wgr]

maxie ball and 75/80 grains of powder

[danyboy]

OK. This morning, tried maxi balls and 50 gr. Tripple7 FFF: pretty useless at 50 yards. Will bump up the charge. Also tried 45LC 252gr downsized to .446" and patched up to .454". Patch was coming out with the ramrod, guess I didn't wrap them the proper way. Probaboly have to turn the opposite way of the twist wich I believe is RH.
Have some REAL bullets coming in the mail a fellow forum member was kind enough to mail me some. Have a minie mold but for 50cal. Will post results.

[danyboy]

Fouronesix,
You're wright. Tried .450 maxis las weekend and you don't even need the ramrod to push them in. Just dropped them, too loose and results were disapointing.

[fouronesix]

Yep, conicals are always tricky in MLs. The one possibility would be the .454 minie, but I think Lyman dropped that quite a few years ago. Even then it may not work. Predicting results based on anecdote is always less than certain. The options for the over-sized bore with conicals is to paper patch one of the existing designs including some of the shorter non-muzzleloader types. On the positive side, the options for patched roundball are much greater and they can almost always be made to work well.

[danyboy]

1975 edition of Lyman Black Powder Handbook lists Lyman Plains Rifle .45cal bullets as being Lyman #454612 and #454613 bullets. See attachment photocopy of it.
81033

[Whiterabbit]

I only have experience with a 1:26 handi and a 1:60 roundball shooter, but 40 grians to me seems like WAY too little powder. I need over 100 grains in the handi to get the pistol bullets shooting accurately. I think the gentleman who was suggesting closer to 80 grains of powder was onto it. the slow twist should require those bullets coming out at warp speed unless they are pretty short conicals.

The net thing I would look at is pressure to seat. If they go down the bore real easy, id try a thicker patch. My most accurate loads would leave my palm red after 100 rounds (if I ever made that many shots in a day of shooting)

[danyboy]

I only have experience with a 1:26 handi and a 1:60 roundball shooter, but 40 grians to me seems like WAY too little powder. I need over 100 grains in the handi to get the pistol bullets shooting accurately. I think the gentleman who was suggesting closer to 80 grains of powder was onto it. the slow twist should require those bullets coming out at warp speed unless they are pretty short conicals.


The net thing I would look at is pressure to seat. If they go down the bore real easy, id try a thicker patch. My most accurate loads would leave my palm red after 100 rounds (if I ever made that many shots in a day of shooting)

They are pretty short conicals and never heard of using a patch for conical.

[bigted]

more powder pard ... more powder! don't know anything about your powder but with real bp the charge should be at minimum of 70 grains of 2 or 3 f powder. I like the GOEX for real bp and it acts rite. I believe you are suffering from any little fluff of air buffeting your projectile around. if you get accuracy once then you should be able to re-create it. if you use too small of an amount of powder then any small thing can and will deflect your boolit and also the bumping effect with bp will be minimal in nature so ... charge it up bubba and see if this gives better digestion. low charges will and can be fun and accurate in a rifle like yours with shooting a patched round ball. also your projectiles should be dead soft and pure lead to do what is needed. if your roundballs aren't getting it done then try thicker patch material or another combo of larger balls of pure lead and the same thickness patch.

also do your patch forensics'. this will tell what is going on with your patched balls. if they are burning thru then you prolly have too lite of material that is not containing the powder combustion.

if they are being torn in the rifling area then your rifling is still too sharp which means you need more shooting to even it out ...[Lyman rifles are famous for this condition]... another thing that torn patches in the rifling allude to is again too lite of material...[not tough enough].

is the shot patch burned a bit under the ball and condition in good shape in the rifling ... then you need to experiment with your patch thickness/ball diameter.

it will shoot if all conditions are met that the rifle tells you it wants. just keep pondering your results and listen to what your rifle is telling you.

[danyboy]

bigted,
Very good info. Going to the range (60km drive and can't start shooting till the cops leave at 16h00 !) this afternoon. I used a wooden dowel and sand paper to make my mold a little bigger and casted .454" bullets instead of .452". Will try them out and also bump up the charge to 70-80gr and see what happens.
thanks

[fouronesix]

The Lyman 45 cal minie I'm familiar with is the 454613. The mold I had would drop the minie of pure lead at .453" and 275 gr. It has a thick skirt so theoretically could handle pretty stiff charges- like the photos in the Lyman manual demonstrate. I have a T/C 45 with 48" twist. The bore is excellent and on spec at .450".

I thought there was a lot of potential for an accurate hunting type load with that minie. I tried to get it to shoot, but it simply would not. I tried paper patching and sizing to .450"- no improvement. My only guess being-- that particular minie's aerodynamic stabilization wasn't working even at the 48" twist. It might have done better in a 32" or 28" twist relying solely on the conventional gyroscopic stabilization of a regular solid base conical. Then the obvious realization and conclusion-- why fight with a minie in that rifle when the original Maxi has always done so well.

[danyboy]

fouronesix,
You're wright. No point in trying to fight it. I'll try those Maxi's but the .454 ones. Today I bumped up my charge with these short conicals meant for the 45 Colt dropping at .454 : useless even up to 80 gr. Went back to .440 Hornady round balls and lubes patches with 60gr. of Tripple 7 FFFG. Satisfied with the results even if they say .004 groove isn't meant for round balls. Makes you wonder sometimes about what's written in books.
I contacted Lyman by internet and fax last week to ask them if they still had some info about this discontinued model and no answer. Guess I am not important enough for them...
I'll keep working up towards a mother load for this rifle. Thanks to all for their help.
danyboy

[fouronesix]

I guess half the enjoyment and most of the education with these type rifles is the journey not necessarily the destination. Forgot to bring up one thing to look at. If that rifle has been shot with any variety of conicals, which you have done in addition to anything previously, they can lead. Something often overlooked with muzzleloaders. The leading usually is hard to see and not obvious even with a bore light. Can be felt with a really tight patch on a jag. When it builds up, I've noticed that the majority is in the breech end of the bore and for a few inches forward of where a ball would sit when loaded. Even if it's not leaded won't do any harm to give the bore a good scrubbing. A worn out brush- about 40 cal or so wrapped tightly with bronze wool, 3-0 or 4-0 steel wool or copper chore boy, wrapped up to slightly over bore size for a tight fit, will usually grab the lead and remove it. There may not be any leading-- just something fairly easy to do that won't hurt a thing. Good luck!

[danyboy]

No lead in there whatsoever. Tried REAL 250gr and 200gr bullets Mr Pearbody sent me and tighter fit and good results with the 250gr. Much titgher fit than the .450" Maxi. Used Pyrodex P FFFG instead of Hodgdon Select FFG. Prefer Pyrodex P FFFG much better. Can't get GO-EX around here. Bumed up charge up to 100 gr., increments of 5 grains, 5 shots each, terrible.

[bigted]

if mining for lead then an added idea is what I use for getting the lead out of a barrel.

take turpentine [spirit of turpentine] pure and scrub a barrel with a fairly tight patch soaked with the terp.
2- allow to soak for awhile and then soak another patch and slop it around in the barrel again and allow to soak in for around 1/2 hour.
3- take as tight a patch as you can push down bore and go to the breech and back out and see if there is any lead on the patch.
4- if there be even a spec on the tight patch then repeat 1 2 and 3
5- keep this up till you get a pure white patch and with no lead appearing on it.
6- if your tight patch's come out any color but pure white [the very same color they went in like] you will need to continue till your barrel puts out only white patch's every time.
7- now with a clean barrel take some shooters choice or other ammonia containing bore scrub and liberally clean the barrel as the bore is de-oiled to the point now that just oil will not recondition it so it wont rust.
8- swipe out all the shooters choice et al and ensure the bore to be completely dry from all terp. and cleaners.
9- oil it copiously with "rem oil" and soak it from a thorough patching with this oil and allow to set over nite ... then remove the oil with clean dry patch's
10- re-oil with same and allow another night and dry the barrel ... should be completely clean now .

seems like a bunch of trial to go thru but in my experience it ensures a good de-leaded barrel with ALL the crud outta there to begin again. GOOD LUCK!

[danyboy]

Wouldn't give this rifle to my worst enemy.