30-40 Krag Carbine needs a good Mold,and good loads!

[Cosmiceyes]

The pieces have been bought, and the assembly will begin when the stock gets here next week. It is a 1898 Krag Carbine barrel action.
So what I need is information on molds friendly to a full Military restoration. I will use a peep made just for it without drilling any holes. So range at 200 yards/meters for hunting,and I don't know what for Gun Club Military events ranges. I know there is a lot of good knowledge out there on this subject. So you have my full attention. :)'s

79474794757947679477

[Horace]

I like the 311284,311299 or the 311291 moulds to start with...it`s fun trying to find the best load for each.

Horace

[Buckshot]

.............The Lyman 311284 was designed FOR the 30-40 Krag to be used on 600 yard Guard (Nat'L Guard) ranges for practice. However the Krag barrels (probably fine with jacketed) had variances in groove diameters that were NOT so wonderous for cast lead. See Pope's remarks as he picked barreled actions out at the armory for the Nat'L team. So, my suggestion is that if you have the barreled action you slug the barrel to see what you have, and go from there. Buying the mould first (even with modern rifles) isn'teh way to go.

....................Buckshot

[Cosmiceyes]

Thank you! I understand the slugging the barrel! I do it for all the Military rifles I buy. :)'s

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting cast bullets in Krag rifles for 50 years and have four of them now. It is very true that barrel groove diameters are all over the place and that is a problem with jacketed bullets. However with cast bullets the wide swing in groove diameters isn't such a big issue because of the large and long barrel throat. .313 - .315 bullets will deliver best accuracy so that cancels out barrel groove difference issues.

The limits to how large your bullets can be is determined by the ability to chamber rounds in an individual rifle.

Such a gas check bullet, cast from ACWW and fired over 16/2400 will give you pleasing accuracy and velocity between 1.5 to 1.6 K fps.

The point of this post is you will be well served to buy a 180 to 220 grain bullet mold that casts bullets of at least .313. Seating depth of the bullet is limited by the overall length of the round so they will feed through the magazine.

[rintinglen]

I agree whole-heartedly with Char Gar on this one. I had an older 311-299 that cast .314 that was great in my sporterized 96. I sold the mold with the rifle when times were hard back in the 90's, but still have a few boolits that I shoot in my 1895 Winchester from time to time. If I still had the gun, I have a 316-475 that I think would be great, if a little on the light side.

[Cosmiceyes]

.............The Lyman 311284 was designed FOR the 30-40 Krag to be used on 600 yard Guard (Nat'L Guard) ranges for practice. However the Krag barrels (probably fine with jacketed) had variances in groove diameters that were NOT so wonderous for cast lead. See Pope's remarks as he picked barreled actions out at the armory for the Nat'L team. So, my suggestion is that if you have the barreled action you slug the barrel to see what you have, and go from there. Buying the mould first (even with modern rifles) isn't the way to go.

....................Buckshot

So where does one find a 311284 mould these days?

[texassako]

It is an Improved chamber, but mine likes the 311284 as well. The Lyman 311284 is still in production, NOE has them in stock, or you could get a close copy(w/ a flat nose) made up to fit your rifle specifically over at Accurate Molds.

[Cosmiceyes]

It is an Improved chamber, but mine likes the 311284 as well. The Lyman 311284 is still in production, NOE has them in stock, or you could get a close copy(w/ a flat nose) made up to fit your rifle specifically over at Accurate Molds.

Sounds good. As I gather up this information till I get the barreled action,and slug the bore.Then I will have this great amount of experienced casters advice!
Here a pic of the culprit!
79439



600 yards would be good in Palo Duro Canyon for Aoudads don't you think? :)'s

[Outpost75]

I am using an NOE gang mold which casts. 313" on the driving bands and. 303" on tbe bore didingnose. I use a charge of 30 grs.of RL7 as a full charge hunting liad in the Krag and in tbe. 303 British, which eorks well. I also use the same components in. 30-06 in a Winchester 54 Sporter and an M1 Garand, which cycles reliably, if a bir sluggish. Velocity is from 2000-2100 fps. K.I.S.S. principle!

[67bear]

I've been quite pleased with a NOE 311284 that casts slightly bigger than .312 and IMR 4350

[Cosmiceyes]

What do ya'll think of Lead Bullets Technology? http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml

[madsenshooter]

The shooting for CMP sponsored Vintage Rifle matches is done from 200yds. I'll be working on developing some loads for Camp Perry using NOE's 311365 or 316365 spitzers. My 92/96 rifles feed the spitzer well and I have a selection of bore diameters. The nose of the 316365 is .310 and I have some Krags with that groove diameter weighs 200gr checked and lubed. 311365 has a .305 nose and weighs only 180gr checked and lubed. 3"-3.5" at 100yds with a caseful of WC860, so far. These bullets ought to have about the higest BC of any 30cal boolit. In weight, they'd be close to playing with some of the Hudson-Thomas bullets at times used in Krags and Springfields (pic below). Not all Krags are spitzer friendly though.

Some clubs don't mind if you shoot your Krag in NRA highpower matches where you get a chance to shoot more shots and sometimes shoot from a longer range. I sometimes shoot at a range that has 80round matches and they shoot from 200, 300 and at targets reduced to simulate 600 from 300. Wonderful place to get a no wind zero here in SE Ohio.

txsako, what had to be done to get an improved to feed from your rifle. I improved one for a friend in order to remove a bad spot in the chamber. Quite improved, the larger shoulder won't go through the magazine. Looks like Mr. Dremel applied to an extra sideplate could fix that.

[Cosmiceyes]

The shooting for CMP sponsored Vintage Rifle matches is done from 200yds. I'll be working on developing some loads for Camp Perry using NOE's 311365 or 316365 spitzers. My 92/96 rifles feed the spitzer well and I have a selection of bore diameters. The nose of the 316365 is .310 and I have some Krags with that groove diameter weighs 200gr checked and lubed. 311365 has a .305 nose and weighs only 180gr checked and lubed. 3"-3.5" at 100yds with a caseful of WC860, so far. These bullets ought to have about the higest BC of any 30cal boolit. In weight, they'd be close to playing with some of the Hudson-Thomas bullets at times used in Krags and Springfields (pic below). Not all Krags are spitzer friendly though.

Some clubs don't mind if you shoot your Krag in NRA highpower matches where you get a chance to shoot more shots and sometimes shoot from a longer range. I sometimes shoot at a range that has 80round matches and they shoot from 200, 300 and at targets reduced to simulate 600 from 300. Wonderful place to get a no wind zero here in SE Ohio.

txsako, what had to be done to get an improved to feed from your rifle. I improved one for a friend in order to remove a bad spot in the chamber. Quite improved, the larger shoulder won't go through the magazine. Looks like Mr. Dremel applied to an extra sideplate could fix that.

The art of knowledge does leave me wishing I had a better grasp of the subject matter. While I understand the diameter,weight relationship,I need to read more of the education base to keep up. I didn't have anyone casting with me as I grew up,and I see where I am truly limited in what I should know. Going back after my Hatcher's Notebook again.

[madsenshooter]

I don't think there's much in there about cast bullets, least not that I noted. Just spend more time here, and you'll figure it out. Biggest thing here is deciding who to listen to, and who to ignore. One might get ten different answers for the same question. Some right, some wrong, some a little of each. I'd like to find a copy of Townsend Whelen's "Days of the Krag

[Cosmiceyes]

I don't think there's much in there about cast bullets, least not that I noted. Just spend more time here, and you'll figure it out. Biggest thing here is deciding who to listen to, and who to ignore. One might get ten different answers for the same question. Some right, some wrong, some a little of each. I'd like to find a copy of Townsend Whelen's "Days of the Krag

1960 Gun Digest Annual Book
E-Book on page 150 at this site http://ebooks.gundigest.com/product/1960-gun-digest-annual-book

[451whitworth]

What do ya'll think of Lead Bullets Technology? http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml
I use a LBT 200gr. LFN in my Browning 1895 30-40

[Cosmiceyes]

I use a LBT 200gr. LFN in my Browning 1895 30-40

Great,what range are you using it at 100,200 or further? This guns barrel is 22.15 inches. What length of barrel are you using? I'll have to check all the ranges out at the club to see the difference between rifle,and carbine. Does anyone shoot both? Have any results to share? :)'s

[Char-Gar]

I don't think there's much in there about cast bullets, least not that I noted. Just spend more time here, and you'll figure it out. Biggest thing here is deciding who to listen to, and who to ignore. One might get ten different answers for the same question. Some right, some wrong, some a little of each. I'd like to find a copy of Townsend Whelen's "Days of the Krag

Shortly after his death, many of Whelens writings were combined in a tribute book entitled "Mr. Rifleman" and the krag material is included. It is worth the effort to hunt up a copy of this book.

I have never found anything in Whelen's writings that was in error. Keith's works is mostly solid, but he does often pass off opinion as fact and he had lots of opinions. Keith was bigger than life Western cowboy character which has boosted his appeal to a considerable degree. Whelen was an easterner with a much more genteel approach to life and shooting.

I grew up reading both Keith and Whelen, but got turned off on Keith in my early 20s due to his excessive use of the possessive "my". It seemed he wanted to claim credit for every firearm development during his lifetime. Whelen never went in for self engrandizment.

[Cosmiceyes]

Shortly after his death, many of Whelens writings were combined in a tribute book entitled "Mr. Rifleman" and the krag material is included. It is worth the effort to hunt up a copy of this book.

I have never found anything in Whelen's writings that was in error. Keith's works is mostly solid, but he does often pass off opinion as fact and he had lots of opinions. Keith was bigger than life Western cowboy character which has boosted his appeal to a considerable degree. Whelen was an easterner with a much more genteel approach to life and shooting.

I grew up reading both Keith and Whelen, but got turned off on Keith in my early 20s due to his excessive use of the possessive "my". It seemed he wanted to claim credit for every firearm development during his lifetime. Whelen never went in for self engrandizment.

Wow,a book that cost as much as a gun! Yes I looked. I think I'll ask for it for my birthday! :):):):):)

[Dean D.]

If you want a light plinker for your Krag I've had really good luck with the 311466 Loverin boolit using IMR4227 powder. I'm at work at the moment but can give you my data later if you want it.

I have the NOE 311284 but have not had a chance to work up loads for it yet in the Krag. I am thinking of using IMR3031 with it as that powder works well for me with 180gr J-words.

[Cosmiceyes]

If you want a light plinker for your Krag I've had really good luck with the 311466 Loverin boolit using IMR4227 powder. I'm at work at the moment but can give you my data later if you want it.

I have the NOE 311284 but have not had a chance to work up loads for it yet in the Krag. I am thinking of using IMR3031 with it as that powder works well for me with 180gr J-words.

Sounds as if you have some good information. Yes please comeback with more that you have,and as you develop the heaver loads too.

[madsenshooter]

The NOE 311284 is one of my match bullet replacement candidates, the nose casts .302" which goes well with the fact that the majority of Krag barrels have a .301" bore. Lots of fun, and extremely accurate at 1600fps or less is the Squibb bullet. Many companies made copies, the Belding and Mull 311169 and the often seen for sale Lyman 311413 are examples. People buy them figuring to get jacketed velocity out of the little spitzers and quickly get disappointed. When kept down in the velocity range they like, shooting at golf balls at 100yd and hitting them pretty regular is the norm. I used to use Blue Dot under the bullet, but I'm near the end of that and have been using a surplus powder that burns about the same rate. 11.2gr should yield around 1450fps.

79631

[Cosmiceyes]

The NOE 311284 is one of my match bullet replacement candidates, the nose casts .302" which goes well with the fact that the majority of Krag barrels have a .301" bore. Lots of fun, and extremely accurate at 1600fps or less is the Squibb bullet. Many companies made copies, the Belding and Mull 311169 and the often seen for sale Lyman 311413 are examples. People buy them figuring to get jacketed velocity out of the little spitzers and quickly get disappointed. When kept down in the velocity range they like, shooting at golf balls at 100yd and hitting them pretty regular is the norm. I used to use Blue Dot under the bullet, but I'm near the end of that and have been using a surplus powder that burns about the same rate. 11.2gr should yield around 1450fps.



Nice group,and with open sights! My powder selection is;
Accurate XMR 4350
XMP 2015
No.7
Hercules/Alliant 2400
Hodgen Pyrodex
H 110
H 205
H 335
H 380
Winchester 231
760
So when I slug my barrel I was thinking of starting out with Herc 2400 as I have 9 1/4 pounds 8 pounds being Alliant.

[451whitworth]

Great,what range are you using it at 100,200 or further? This guns barrel is 22.15 inches. What length of barrel are you using? I'll have to check all the ranges out at the club to see the difference between rifle,and carbine. Does anyone shoot both? Have any results to share? :)'s
24" barrel. I shoot my Browning with the original buckhorn sights and as such they aren't real good for long range. 100 yard paper punching is all i do. I use either 28.0gr. RL-7 or 33.0gr. IMR3031

[Dean D.]

Sounds as if you have some good information. Yes please comeback with more that you have,and as you develop the heaver loads too.

I just got home and looked at my load data for the 311466. I started at 19.0 of IMR4227 and worked up in 1/2 gr. increments to 20.5 gr.. 19.5gr of gave me my best groups in the Krag I tested it in.

I'll let you know how the 311284 groups when I get a chance to hit the range with it.

[Cosmiceyes]

I just got home and looked at my load data for the 311466. I started at 19.0 of IMR4227 and worked up in 1/2 gr. increments to 20.5 gr.. 19.5gr of gave me my best groups in the Krag I tested it in.

I'll let you know how the 311284 groups when I get a chance to hit the range with it.

So you have one of the last Krags. Tell me do you recognize the sight on this one?
79725

[Dean D.]

I'm no expert on Krags, there are many here on the forum that are though that may chime in. From what I see that is NOT an original sight, at least I've never seen a Krag with one like that unless it had been sporterized. The original sight should be a ladder type sight. If it is an original I'll be tickled to watch and learn from others more in the know. ;)

[Shiloh]

I use a 314299

Shiloh

[Cosmiceyes]

I'm no expert on Krags, there are many here on the forum that are though that may chime in. From what I see that is NOT an original sight, at least I've never seen a Krag with one like that unless it had been sporterized. The original sight should be a ladder type sight. If it is an original I'll be tickled to watch and learn from others more in the know. ;)

It is actually the 2nd one I have seen with the buck horn being on a ladder with the other gun. Wondering if it was for Jungle like in the Philippines,or Something in China?

[Texasflyboy]

Hensley & Gibbs Design #99:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?18536-30-40-Krag-Loads-Cast-Range-Results&highlight=Ideal

Hensley & Gibbs Design #20: (Not recommended)


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?18536-30-40-Krag-Loads-Cast-Range-Results&highlight=Ideal

Ideal 308280 Armory Mould:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103080-Ideal-308280-8-Cavity-Armory-Mould

With the Ideal 8 Cavity Plain Base design I routinely get 1.5" groups at 100 yards all day long with my Krag NRA Carbine:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/krag/krag1.jpg

[Cosmiceyes]

Hensley & Gibbs Design #99:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?18536-30-40-Krag-Loads-Cast-Range-Results&highlight=Ideal

Hensley & Gibbs Design #20: (Not recommended)


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?18536-30-40-Krag-Loads-Cast-Range-Results&highlight=Ideal

Ideal 308280 Armory Mould:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103080-Ideal-308280-8-Cavity-Armory-Mould

With the Ideal 8 Cavity Plain Base design I routinely get 1.5" groups at 100 yards all day long with my Krag NRA Carbine:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/krag/krag1.jpg

I just spent a hour on those pages. Great pictures of the targets. I then went to the Geo A Hensley page. I have a 2 cavity #12 plain base 150 grain with handles all from San Diego. So maybe I'll get lucky on a 2 cavity mold for the 30-40 Krag. :)'s

[Cosmiceyes]

After all this time,the action was finally shipped. I need to act my age,and not be so impatient! :)'s

[Cosmiceyes]

I thought my stock was going to come in yesterday,but it didn't? Great American Gunstock Company!

I have a barrel band without screw or swivel.Also need a stock retainer spring for band.I need a spring for a 1902 rear sight."OR" a peep slide bar for a 1901. I need 2 sight screws.

[Cosmiceyes]

Tracking number says it will arrive today!

[madsenshooter]

2400 will be friendly to you, just starting out. It'll help you avoid the frustration that makes a lot of new casters into former casters. It burns near the same rate as the powder I used with the Squibb bullet. Your buckhorn sight was made for the woods of America, not the Philippines or China. Likely made by King Gunsights, they had models which fit the bases of Krag, Springfield and Winchester model 95 rifles. The full buckhorn for the Krag was #19-S and Stroebel gives a value of $35-$75. Would have cost the original buyer $1.50.

[Cosmiceyes]

2400 will be friendly to you, just starting out. It'll help you avoid the frustration that makes a lot of new casters into former casters. It burns near the same rate as the powder I used with the Squibb bullet. Your buckhorn sight was made for the woods of America, not the Philippines or China. Likely made by King Gunsights, they had models which fit the bases of Krag, Springfield and Winchester model 95 rifles. The full buckhorn for the Krag was #19-S and Stroebel gives a value of $35-$75. Would have cost the original buyer $1.50.

That would explain why my 1896 ladder won't fit the attachment screw. Threads are OK just the diameter of the shaft is to large. The barrel has a group of 5 holes not in a too straight line in the top of the barrel which the seller hit from view. Looks like JB Wield was used to attach base,and fill some holes. Anyone know how to get it out? I know I can make some blanks to thread in to the foreign holes,and silver solder into place.

[madsenshooter]

Krag sight mounting screws have a very odd thread, nearly a metric thread, a no longer standard metric thread. 26tpi in US nomenclature, or something like that, can't remember exactly. But the US armories were copying French threads in their beginning, and the threads for sights, band screws and such carried over for quite some time. I can't say for sure, but it looks as though your sight has been moved to the rear. Measuring from the rear of the receiver ring to the rear mounting screw for the sight, I get 4.18". The holes are the same for all models of Krag sights.

TXflyboy, try that #20 going just a bit slower, in the 1400fps range, it'll do better for you then. I could help with the feeding problem, but you're probably not interested in the piddling with the magazine and follower that it would take. I wouldn't be.

[Cosmiceyes]

Krag sight mounting screws have a very odd thread, nearly a metric thread, a no longer standard metric thread. 26tpi in US nomenclature, or something like that, can't remember exactly. But the US armories were copying French threads in their beginning, and the threads for sights, band screws and such carried over for quite some time. I can't say for sure, but it looks as though your sight has been moved to the rear. Measuring from the rear of the receiver ring to the rear mounting screw for the sight, I get 4.18". The holes are the same for all models of Krag sights.

TXflyboy, try that #20 going just a bit slower, in the 1400fps range, it'll do better for you then. I could help with the feeding problem, but you're probably not interested in the piddling with the magazine and follower that it would take. I wouldn't be.

I am thinking of sending the barrel action to Hank to see if he has a good way to fix the extra holes,and JB Wield. I read the French threads information,and was just thinking since it is so messed up to have the holes made larger in diameter,and re-threaded to a more common sight mount thread. I did find another Carbine complete for sale complete. It has a "01" rear sight,and it is a "03"build. It has a "05" front sight like mine with the total ring around the barrel. I think the travel to get it,and it's price will make me very happy. :)'s

[Texasflyboy]

Krag sight mounting screws have a very odd thread, nearly a metric thread, a no longer standard metric thread. 26tpi in US nomenclature, or something like that, can't remember exactly.

You are correct. For the receiver sight that uses the cutoff hole in the receiver, its 26 tpi.

I successfully used a 10/24 (or 24 tpi) socket head screw with my Redfield No Drill Receiver sight by heating the screw until red, and then allowing to cool to room temperature. I ground the socket head down by mounting in a drill press and filing/sanding until the screw entered the recessed bolt hole. The 24tpi thread mismatch didn't start to bind until I was 90% into the threaded hole, and then, the now soft 10/24 bolt threads gave into the 26tpi threads. For me, it was a one way installation.

I later found out that the sling swivel screw is the same thread pitch (26TPI) and is much easier to obtain that the rare longer Redfield 26tpi cut-off/sight replacement screw.

This is the KRAG Redfield No Drill Receiver Sight, courtesy of Buckshot:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?4277-Krag-Sight&p=48149&viewfull=1#post48149

[Cosmiceyes]

You are correct. For the receiver sight that uses the cutoff hole in the receiver, its 26 tpi.

I successfully used a 10/24 (or 24 tpi) socket head screw with my Redfield No Drill Receiver sight by heating the screw until red, and then allowing to cool to room temperature. I ground the socket head down by mounting in a drill press and filing/sanding until the screw entered the recessed bolt hole. The 24tpi thread mismatch didn't start to bind until I was 90% into the threaded hole, and then, the now soft 10/24 bolt threads gave into the 26tpi threads. For me, it was a one way installation.

I later found out that the sling swivel screw is the same thread pitch (26TPI) and is much easier to obtain that the rare longer Redfield 26tpi cut-off/sight replacement screw.

This is the KRAG Redfield No Drill Receiver Sight, courtesy of Buckshot:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?4277-Krag-Sight&p=48149&viewfull=1#post48149

Here are the problems I have to fix on my 454xxx US-Krag.

8104681047810488104981050
Picture 1-3 show a hacksaw mark,the 5 holes drilled,and filled with JB-Wield an the bottom of the sight base.The next 2 pictures are of the stock gouge from the $197.00 stock from Great American in Yuba City,Calif.

[Cosmiceyes]

The new complete US-Krag Carbine!
81614