Derimmed .224... Firing Pin Holes

[ricklaut]

I searched, but maybe my search foo is weak. I'm seeing firing pin holes on many of the pieces of Remington brass after derimming. They're small - but they're there.

Is there anything that can be done differently to prevent this? Should these be culled as rejects at this point? If not, what happens... the hole simply closes up on point forming, or is that one susceptible to becoming a flyer (or an exploder-in-mid-air)?

[303british.com]

I don't cull them unless they are large or have torn the brass. The die punch diameter has a little to do with it, but there's little you can do to undo what the firing pin has already done.

Military bullets have exposed lead bases, and millions (gazillions actually) have been fired with no problems of the bullets coming apart. It seems to me I read something to the effect that the odd one comes apart, but the poster's account was suspect, so I dismissed it. I was a military armourer for 22 years, and never heard of bullets flying apart in the barrel - only after exit.

http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/components/basses.jpg

The barrel keeps the bullet together, until it exits. No worries about hurting yourself. That's probably one of the reasons you'll get flyers, but statistically, it's a non-event.

[ricklaut]

That's pretty much what I was thinking, but I haven't made my first complete bullet yet... :) Thanks!

[customcutter]

I had someone in another forum say that every time he used brass with a heavy firing pin strike he would get a flier, high and right. He said that he somehow indexed the bullet to the brass, to the chamber. YMMV.

[Utah Shooter]

Are you attempting to make a FMJ or HP?

[ricklaut]

Are you attempting to make a FMJ or HP?

In my initial batch, I'll probably make some of both (well, lead tip ~ 59gr and HP, ~55gr). I'm swaging cores now

[fredj338]

I am new to the swaging but large flaws can certainly throw flyers. So if you want max accuracy, sort your jackets using a magnifying glass. I did have a couple bullets in my first test batch not make it to the target, diff report as well, so I assume the bullet came apart due to a jacket defect. They all made it across the chronograph whole though.

[ricklaut]

Good to know, Fred. Yeah, some of the holes are obvious; some I'd probably need a magnifying glass to really verify.

[onomrbil]

One need only read "The Bullet's Flight" to see what the slightest deformation in a bullet base will do to placement. Cast bullet shooters know this all to well. Dr. Manns described it all in excruciating detail for those of you who would learn.

[ricklaut]

One need only read "The Bullet's Flight" to see what the slightest deformation in a bullet base will do to placement. Cast bullet shooters know this all to well. Dr. Manns described it all in excruciating detail for those of you who would learn.

Yep - that's where I'm wondering what others' standard practices are here with swaged .224. These (my initial batch) are intended to be plinking bullets (<100 yards) from an AR, and what I don't know yet is how well the point forming die tidies up the bases and closes those holes (don't have that die yet). At this point, I'm going to keep them & segregate them out for further testing.

[Cane_man]

i believe it would cause the bullet to drift off to the right due to coriolis forces? its works exactly like the laces on a football do, for a right handed QB on long passes the ball tails off to the right because the laces affect the spiral...

rick you will see after you swage up a large batch that some of the primer strikes get drawn out and some don't, the ones that dimple on the side of the base maybe the ones to save for foulers or toss back into the lead pot...

[ricklaut]

For those reading & wondering... here's what I'm describing:

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/Firing_pin_holes.jpg

[Prospector Howard]

That's the problem with using brass with a deep firing pin dent. A fatter than necessary derim punch doesn't help either. The one on the left looks like there is a tear starting left of the firing pin dent. Not good.

[303british.com]

For those reading & wondering... here's what I'm describing:

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/Firing_pin_holes.jpg

I look at them and think that your punch is too rounded. It's actually exerting too much pressure on the centre bottom of the case and making many of the pin indentations worse. It's causing them to stretch. That kind of indentation seals up just fine unless the holes are elongated.

A quick check after unfolding the rim is to blow into the mouth of the case to see if air blows through the indent hole.

[BT Sniper]

The 22lr brass you get and the firing pin strike will very depending on what gun it was shot in and the ware of the firing pin that fired the case. On my trusty ruger 10-22 that has fired 10s of thousands of bullets the firing pin strike is pretty light now. A new gun with a sharp firing pin will hit the rim much harder making a deeper strike andpossible more prone to tears when turned into 22 cal jackets.

Swage on!

BT

[blltsmth]

+1 ON THE PUNCH BEING TOO FAT AND EXERTING TOO MUCH PRESSURE ON THE CASE. I've had a corbin de-rim set up for many, many years and mine come out nice and flat with no problems with firing pin strikes

[303british.com]

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/bulletsassorted_zpsb74bd25b.jpg

The first attempt at a picture was from another forum where I posted it. They don't like linking. :) We'll do this.

This picture isn't the best, but you can see the jacket made from a rimfire case on the far right, standing flat on its end. There are two jackets with lead cores sticking out in the foreground. The second one is an RF case. It too, has a flat end.

The punch needs rounded ends, but just a little. Having the punch flat with slightly rounded edges produces a flat jacket and helps to even out the firing pin mark.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

LOL! I think he posted the wrong picture!

[ricklaut]

I was thinking about how the punch is stretching out imperfections there. These are from BT's set - I remember he had an explanation for why he makes the rounder punch (perhaps he'll chime back in).

[Utah Shooter]

In my initial batch, I'll probably make some of both (well, lead tip ~ 59gr and HP, ~55gr). I'm swaging cores now


what I don't know yet is how well the point forming die tidies up the bases and closes those holes

From what i have seen it will not do a thing to the base of the projectile. It will give you the pressure ring however that we are looking to get. If it does not iron out in the seating process it will be there in the final product.


The 22lr brass you get and the firing pin strike will very depending on what gun it was shot in and the ware of the firing pin that fired the case. On my trusty ruger 10-22 that has fired 10s of thousands of bullets the firing pin strike is pretty light now. A new gun with a sharp firing pin will hit the rim much harder making a deeper strike andpossible more prone to tears when turned into 22 cal jackets.

Swage on!

BT

Darn right BT. I have actually been tempted to buy some .22lr Lapua Match just to pull the lead, not shoot it and see what type of projectile that makes.


+1 ON THE PUNCH BEING TOO FAT AND EXERTING TOO MUCH PRESSURE ON THE CASE. I've had a corbin de-rim set up for many, many years and mine come out nice and flat with no problems with firing pin strikes

Just curious if you would mind posting a photo. I get a bit of a dimple not sure if that is called a problem though.

[303british.com]

I'm away from the house right now, but I will post some pictures of the unfolded jackets of various head stamps, as well as the Richard and Dave Corbin punches.

[303british.com]

Here are some pictures of three cases selected at random. This first one shows what the case looks like after using either the Dave or Richard Corbin punch. As you can see, the base is almost flat with a little rounding around the circumference.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/case3_zps6dc52990.jpg

This next photo shows three SK cases with firing pin indents.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/case1_zps80021994.jpg

Here they are after being derimmed with Richard Corbin's punch. The case on the left is hard to make out, but the FP indents on the centre case (2 o'clock) and case on the right (6 o'clock) are easier to make out. Note that after derimming, the idents are appreciably smaller. As well, and this is not scientific, when I blew into the open ends of the newly formed cases, no air exited the indents. :)

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/case2_zps55db8b58.jpg

Here are the three cases, formed into bullets. Note the size of the indents has diminished again. Yes, they are still there, but markedly smaller than before they were formed into jackets.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/WIAF76C_zpse5ecf1ec.jpg

Now to the punches. This first one is an RCECo punch. I miced three and all measured 0.199 inches.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/punch1_zps4783a514.jpg

Here's a repeat with three Corbins.com punches. They too, miced 0.199, but this makes sense to me. Richard Corbin is the machinist of the two brothers, so his ideas would have been used. Dave would have continued using the design.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/punch2_zps56507917.jpg

Since I have only used punches from the Corbin bros, I cannot speak to BTs punches. I only know that the bulge formed by BTs punch seems to elongate the FP indent. But that's me.

[ricklaut]

Thanks - if BT doesn't chime in here, I'll shoot him a note to verify whether or not mine are as he intended.

[R.Ph. 380]

He may be afraid to speak up after getting shot down by another OP in another thread. I haven't noticed any appreciable holes or dents in the finished bullets using BT's punches. They iron out very nicely.

Bill

[Lizard333]

I'd say something's up. My RCE dies take the indent out nicely. No problems with accuracy. Not they rounded either.

[303british.com]

I'm not saying that he makes bad punches. I'm just noting that they are different from what I've seen over the years.

Commercial jackets - J4s, Sierras and Harrels (sp) are flat. If he rounds them, then I imagine that he does this for a reason. There are others on the board that use his system. If they aren't having any problems then everything is good.

[Hickory]

Darn right BT. I have actually been tempted to buy some .22lr Lapua Match just to pull the lead, not shoot it and see what type of projectile that makes.

Back in the early 80's I contacted both Federal & CCI to see it I could buy a million 22 jackets from them before the rim was added.
Their response was a resounding, NO!!
Both said liability issues were to blame.

[Prospector Howard]

Good points, 303. After I left the house yesterday, I started wondering why the jackets were so "dome" shaped on the bottom. Is the punch that shape on the end? Ricklaut, could you take a picture of the punch and post it? I'm really cuious. If it is "dome" shaped, that's not a good idea, like 303 said. The punch should be flat on the top, just not sharp on the edge.

[fredj338]

I do find the base punch either cleans up the pin strike or makes it worse. If you can sort before seating cores, that would be best. After seating cores, the imperfection will have either gotten worse or ironed out, that would be the time for final sort. Point forming shouldn't change the base much, in my limited exp.

[303british.com]

Point forming doesn't. After the derimming is finished, the next most important part is core seating, which smoothes out the heel/base. The CS die is what flattens the base and tidies up the heel by pressure. The base should come out of there looking spiffy. :)

[fredj338]

I'm not saying that he makes bad punches. I'm just noting that they are different from what I've seen over the years.

Commercial jackets - J4s, Sierras and Harrels (sp) are flat. If he rounds them, then I imagine that he does this for a reason. There are others on the board that use his system. If they aren't having any problems then everything is good.

If you look closely at the pics I posted of my first bullets, there is very little rounding of the base with BTs point forming punch. You are right, mot of the base forming is done in core seating, but there seems to be a slight amount during point forming. Maybe it's me, but it appears the bases look diff between core seating & point forming, but it is very minor.

[303british.com]

Edited: What I see with ricklaut's cases are the closed ends are completely rounded over. They look like a cold capsules.

The punch appears to be pushing the base of the case out (where the headstamp is) and rounding it over. I've never seen that. Commercial cases are flat out of the box. Reformed 22LR cases, using either Richard or Dave Corbin's punches, unfold the rim and the rest is flat. I can stand my cases up on the table after I'm done unfolding the rims. Yours would fall over. It's this rounded bulge I find unusual. I've never seen that before with other systems.

[303british.com]

He may be afraid to speak up after getting shot down by another OP in another thread. I haven't noticed any appreciable holes or dents in the finished bullets using BT's punches. They iron out very nicely.

Bill

I wanted to respond to you yesterday, but forgot. I wasn't trying to put Brian down. There's always more than one way to skin a cat. I've just never seen cases before that were rounded on the end.

[ricklaut]

The punch is definitely well rounded, with a flat spot on the very end. I was going to post a picture of it, but one of the things BT asks is to not post pictures of the internals (i.e. things that show how they work). This may not be what he's talking about, but I'm going to respect it unless he chimes in & says it's ok.

I wish I could find the thread I remember reading where he had an explanation. It has to be here somewhere. Anyway, without having the last two dies, I don't know yet how it turns out. Fred's experience makes sense though - it will either close it up or make it worse, making it easier to decide whether to reject them or not.

I'll PM BT right after this - I've been busy the past couple of days and put it off. I don't want to take his eye off of getting work done though! I'm still hoping I get my final dies around my birthday :).

[R.Ph. 380]

Edited: What I see with ricklaut's cases are the closed ends are completely rounded over. They look like a cold capsules.

The punch appears to be pushing the base of the case out (where the headstamp is) and rounding it over. I've never seen that. Commercial cases are flat out of the box. Reformed 22LR cases, using either Richard or Dave Corbin's punches, unfold the rim and the rest is flat. I can stand my cases up on the table after I'm done unfolding the rims. Yours would fall over. It's this rounded bulge I find unusual. I've never seen that before with other systems.

Steve,

What I've seen, is that while the firing pin strike stretches out a little in the derimming step, that's what helps it to reform and diminish so much. the heat of compression actually helps it to seem to flow back together when it goes through the point forming. There's nowhere else for the brass(gilding metal) to go but to try to heal the damage. I don't know how j4's would react being pure copper, but I really really like the result after they drop out of the point forming die.

On another topic, the very small pic that BT makes, really lends itself to small open spaces in the point. I think I'm going to get a hoover meplat former and see if I can actually close up the end, they're that small. But, I have experimented by backing off the compression by backing my die up 1/8th turn in the press and opened the nose up to where I see some of the Kaine dies. I kinda like that look too and one of my ranges in Fort Worth(Alpine) requires hollow point ammo in the AR15. Only reason I don't use this range exclusively is the fact the longest shot they have is 100 yards. Another range I like is Johnson County where 600 yards is the longest. There I can used closed up points, that's what I'll try to do this for. Well, the hollow points this will fit Alpine's requirements and I'll use some of the more open tips. I think it gives us a flexibility to the ammo and profile.

Bill

[Reload3006]

Steve,

brass(gilding metal) to go but to try to heal the damage. I don't know how j4's would react being pure copper, but I really really like the result after they drop out of the point forming die.

Bill
j4 jackets are not pure copper they in fact are gilding metal. 22LR brass is not gilding metal but an alloy of brass that has more zinc than gilding metal

[Lizard333]

I have the Hoover meplate trimmer and it makes a world of difference on the appearance and accuracy.

[Utah Shooter]

I have the Hoover meplate trimmer and it makes a world of difference on the appearance and accuracy.

How far are you shooting to see a difference? From what I understand the diameter of the Meplat as long as it is under a certain diameter (.090 or something) it does not really change accuracy unless it gets sub sonic.

You also have the tipping from them I don't you?

[303british.com]

Steve,

What I've seen, is that while the firing pin strike stretches out a little in the derimming step, that's what helps it to reform and diminish so much. the heat of compression actually helps it to seem to flow back together when it goes through the point forming. There's nowhere else for the brass(gilding metal) to go but to try to heal the damage. I don't know how j4's would react being pure copper, but I really really like the result after they drop out of the point forming die...

Bill

I guess that's the way he designed it then. After you've derimmed the cases and go to seat the cores, I guess they don't stand up in the trays. Does that slow down the step of placing cores into the jackets?

[ricklaut]

I exchanged PMs with BT, and included pictures of my derimmed brass. They are as he intended. His thought process is the design helps iron out the folds and limit the possibility of punching all the way through the brass. Remember, I don't have the rest of the dies yet so I can't yet assess what ultimately happens to those holes, but what Fred & R.Ph. 380 says seems to make sense. I'll keep an eye on them when I process through the next steps.

[R.Ph. 380]

I guess that's the way he designed it then. After you've derimmed the cases and go to seat the cores, I guess they don't stand up in the trays. Does that slow down the step of placing cores into the jackets?

I use a capsule machine tray that drops 100 jackets open end up and then shake my swaged cores so they fall into the jackets. Takes about 5 minutes to have 100 cases with cores inserted. then I just pour the excess off the top layer of the tray. The seated jackets then are shaken over the same trays so they fall into nice little ranks to await the point forming step. Really, really cuts down on the time to process. I did 4 to 500 the other night from my stock of jackets and cores I have been working on for weeks. It was just a matter of picking each out of the tray where it was standing in it's little 0.250" hole. Now, I've got to devise something to catch them when they fall out of the point forming die. I sure liked the tray I saw in some previous posts.

I did load 600 so I can go shoot this coming Saturday. They just sit on top of the brass after using a Lyman M die. Bullet seating isn't a worry with the M die, and then I use a Lee FCD with the bare minimum crimp. Loaded Varget 26,26.2,26.4,26.6 and finally 26.8. (Wish I had a chronograph.) Used CCI SRP in LC brass and am itching to see how they shoot.

Bill

[303british.com]

It sounds like you have almost everything figured out. :)

Could someone post a picture of the core seating die and a point forming die in their press?

[Prospector Howard]

Out of curiosity, I made a derim punch yesterday that was "dome" shaped on the end and a little fatter by 4 thousandths than the one I'm using for Federal brass to see if I could replicate what you're experiencing. Well guess what. I got the same results you're experiencing, even with normal firing pin strikes. You may want to rethink what you're doing here. My derim punches are flat on the top, and have a slight bevel on the edge, just so they aren't sharp on the edge. They are probably smaller diameter also. I don't have a problem with tearing the dents or push throughs. I'm probably stepping on someones toes here, but from looking closely at the pictures you posted (excellent pictures by the way), this could be a safety issue. I'm going to beat this horse again here and say; two derim punches is a good idea. One for Federal and CCI cases that is about 3 thousandths smaller than the one for Remington and Winchester. Those Fed and CCI cases are thicker!
I exchanged PMs with BT, and included pictures of my derimmed brass. They are as he intended. His thought process is the design helps iron out the folds and limit the possibility of punching all the way through the brass. Remember, I don't have the rest of the dies yet so I can't yet assess what ultimately happens to those holes, but what Fred & R.Ph. 380 says seems to make sense. I'll keep an eye on them when I process through the next steps.

[ricklaut]

BT did offer to machine mine flatter if I wished. I'm going to use them as-is for now, and see how they fare through the core seating / point forming dies. I don't see a safety issue, though - can you elaborate on your thought there? Unless I'm missing something, either the hole will close up or it won't - and either way, the weakness would manifest itself as a flier or one that disintegrates in mid air.


Out of curiosity, I made a derim punch yesterday that was "dome" shaped on the end and a little fatter by 4 thousandths than the one I'm using for Federal brass to see if I could replicate what you're experiencing. Well guess what. I got the same results you're experiencing, even with normal firing pin strikes. You may want to rethink what you're doing here. My derim punches are flat on the top, and have a slight bevel on the edge, just so they aren't sharp on the edge. They are probably smaller diameter also. I don't have a problem with tearing the dents or push throughs. I'm probably stepping on someones toes here, but from looking closely at the pictures you posted (excellent pictures by the way), this could be a safety issue. I'm going to beat this horse again here and say; two derim punches is a good idea. One for Federal and CCI cases that is about 3 thousandths smaller than the one for Remington and Winchester. Those Fed and CCI cases are thicker!

[ricklaut]

...Now, I've got to devise something to catch them when they fall out of the point forming die. I sure liked the tray I saw in some previous posts.

Bill

I was in Home Depot the other day and this piece of pre-formed sheet metal caught my attention. Now, clearly my fabrication / sheet metal working skills need some work, but this is my proof-of-concept. It's still somewhat mocked up with a little duct tape & flex ties holding pieces in place. Notice the funnel / dump on the bottom. After a bit of trimming (the sides can be shorter, sharp edges need to be taken care of, etc) I'll rivet it and secure it better. It's positioned over a container when I'm swaging cores. Also, the bleed hole is dumping out into a separate plastic container to the right of the die and I've got a flexible arm holding fresh cores close to the left side of the press (...but it needs to hold more weight to be most effective; great for jackets though). Using this setup, I'm able to sustain 600+ per hour (compared to 275 an hour manually catching them coming out of the die).

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/Press_Web.jpg

I'd love to see your capsule tray - is that one that another member here is fabricating & selling, or something else?

[Prospector Howard]

Ricklaut, when I say it could be a safety issue; I'm talking about overworking and stretching the base of the jacket causing what look to be lateral tears also; that could possibly cause problems when you shoot them. If you get enough tearing, it's possible (no matter how unlikely) to shoot the base of the jacket through with the core; leaving the jacket in the bore of your rifle. 50,000 psi is a lot of pressure exerted on the base of the bullet when fired. I'm as careful as possible to make sure the integrity of the jacket is maintained. I don't know about you, but I value my firearms and my face even more.

[fredj338]

I was in Home Depot the other day and this piece of pre-formed sheet metal caught my attention. Now, clearly my fabrication / sheet metal working skills need some work, but this is my proof-of-concept. It's still somewhat mocked up with a little duct tape & flex ties holding pieces in place. Notice the funnel / dump on the bottom. After a bit of trimming (the sides can be shorter, sharp edges need to be taken care of, etc) I'll rivet it and secure it better. It's positioned over a container when I'm swaging cores. Also, the bleed hole is dumping out into a separate plastic container to the right of the die and I've got a flexible arm holding fresh cores close to the left side of the press (...but it needs to hold more weight to be most effective; great for jackets though). Using this setup, I'm able to sustain 600+ per hour (compared to 275 an hour manually catching them coming out of the die).


I'd love to see your capsule tray - is that one that another member here is fabricating & selling, or something else?

I'll have to take a pic of mine, but I have my press mounted on a 4x6 flat & mounted to my bench. It sticks out a bit beyond the bench so I found a cardboard box that was about right & just staple it to the face of the block under the press as you show. Tilted at a slight angle & cut a flap in one end that is held w/ blue painters tape. Sure makes core & jacket collection simpler.

[ricklaut]

I'll have to take a pic of mine, but I have my press mounted on a 4x6 flat & mounted to my bench. It sticks out a bit beyond the bench so I found a cardboard box that was about right & just staple it to the face of the block under the press as you show. Tilted at a slight angle & cut a flap in one end that is held w/ blue painters tape. Sure makes core & jacket collection simpler.

A box is much simpler and probably works just as well or better than my contraption :grin:. Now that I've over-complicated this too, I'm off to find a suitable box [smilie=2:

[supe47]

They say necessity is the mother of invention but I think lazy is the father. Ricklaut- boxes come and go but that metal tray will last forever. I keep stating at those 2 threaded hole on the top of my Lee press and wonder " now what can I do with those"? I've been toying with the idea of making a pivoting catcher funnel that falls into place on the downward stroke of the ram. Yup, I'm an over thinker.

[Cane_man]

They say necessity is the mother of invention but I think lazy is the father.

aint that the truth! LOL :lol:

[ricklaut]

That's why I love this place! It's such a great combination of practicality & innovation!

I've been eying those two threaded holes up there too :grin:.

[fredj338]

A box is much simpler and probably works just as well or better than my contraption :grin:. Now that I've over-complicated this too, I'm off to find a suitable box [smilie=2:

Here is what I did. You can just see the blue tape at the corner holding the flap closed. So all I need to dump the box is open th flap.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/swagepress_zps7abadf43.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/swagepress_zps7abadf43.jpg.html)