Making 30 Cal Dies [Archive]

Cane_man

08-16-2013, 11:12 AM

i decided to go ahead and purchase a 30-06 (edit: and a 7mm-08) at the end of the year so i can deer hunt with my son next year who will be living in Wyoming... my reason as that my .243 Win was fine here for our smaller California Mulies in the southern Sierra, but the winds and larger Rocky Mountain Mulies could not be had as easily with that caliber... anyway, right or wrong that was my story and i am good to go [smilie=1:

so, i am going to start planning to make some 30 caliber dies this winter (edit: and 7mm dies)... not quite as easy to make as 9mm to .40SW, or .22LR to 0.224, at least that is how it looks from here at the beginning of this project... i like to swage mainly because it gives me a feeling of independence from market or governmental forces and shortages, and that is just plain feels good to shoot homemade with dies you made :D ... with that perspective in mind i would like these 30 cal swaged bullets to follow these parameters:

1) this will be a hunting bullet and plinking/practice, not BR... looking at 150gr to 180gr, not sure on exact size just yet... also want to flexibility to make 125gr for 300 Blackout... MOA at 100 yards would be the goal...

2) Use readily available jackets - for me this means range brass... in particular i like the idea of drawing down 9mm cases... i know you can use soft copper tubing to swage or draw the jackets, but now i am dependent upon the availability of soft copper tubing which is abundant right now but it may not be at some point in time... but it seems like 9mm range brass is far cheaper and abundant... for example, you can buy soft copper tubing in bulk for about $1 per foot, and perhaps you can get 11 jackets per foot, that is about $0.09 per jacket (not including trimming, and associated costs for that)... you can find used 9mm brass in bulk for about $0.03 a case... seems like case closed to me! hopefully, once the 9mm jacket is drawn down to size it wont have to be trimmed, but that is yet to be determined... also, because untrimmed brass will be used, with the casehead not removed, this precludes a BT and a FB design will be used (i think it would be difficult to form a BT base on a bullet casehead)... bullets lengths are approximately 1.2", 9mm bras is approximately 0.72", i am not sure how much they lengthen when being drawn...

3) use readily availabe cores - i dont want to be dependent upon a source for lead wire, so i will be casting boolits to use as cores... i think a 7mm rifle mold would work great... a 0.285 diameter bullet should drop right in a 0.306 jacket, and the 120gr cast boolit can be trimmed to size for whatever weight swaged bullet is being made... a 120gr + 60gr 9mm jacket = 180gr 30 cal swaged bullet...

4) this will be done using a standard reloading press, in particular my RCBS RC Supreme will be used... i cant afford a dedicated swaging press as these die sets home-made in part due to economy...

to get started seems like the biggest challenge, outside of the point forming die [smilie=b: is making the draw dies... these will be similar to the push thru derimming dies used for 22LR... 9mm case OD is approximately 0.380, and it needs to be drawn down to 0.305 or so to allow for core seating to 0.307 and then point forming to 0.308... so i need to draw down 0.075... obviously this can't be done in 1 step, manually at least on a swaging press! perhaps this can be done in 3 or 4 steps? i understand that the brass gets work hardened each time it is drawn, so will it need to be annealed after every 1st or 2nd draw? can i use just one punch tapered to about 0.285 for the drawing?

alright, anyone who has thought about doing this or done this please weigh in... thanks :coffee:

here is a great thread on this from "Mountain Prepper":

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?127123-9mm-cases-to-308-jackets

UPDATE August 2014:

here are the finished 7mm 135gr home swaged bullets (left is Speer 145gr I was trying to copy, right is my version):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/firstbatch_zps09629901.jpg

and they grouped in at under MOA!!!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-MOA_zpsc04c4c42.jpg

.

Jupiter7

08-16-2013, 11:28 AM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109892-BTSniper-308-custom-die-progress!

Thought you may wanna peruse thi thread, pics of BT's 9mm/30cal dies and bullets in there. I believe his set ended up at 5 dies. Good luck, Im right there with ya on this being the best route for self sufficiency. Might give u some insight on core sizes and weights.

Cane_man

08-16-2013, 11:42 AM

^^^ thanks Jupiter, i will look into it, maybe BT will weigh in and share some insights :)

here is the final product i have in mind, this is taken from the midwayusa website of the Berger 150gr FBHP:

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/primary/557/557497.jpg

note: do you notice the small folds on the ogive made while point forming? and this is from a production bullet! ha ha ha, you don't notice these things until you start swaging your own, and if you study all the different pics of production bullets you will see that it is quite common ;-) makes you feel a little better about your own

sprinkintime

08-16-2013, 11:48 AM

customcutter

08-16-2013, 12:21 PM

Cane_man

08-16-2013, 01:11 PM

Cane Man; I think you will find that making a set of 30cal swaging dies is much easier than 224's, I made two sets, because the first set I didn't machine the point die up far enough so it would only make about a 125gr so I made a second one that will go to 180+ also went boattail and that is something you should try, makes such a beautiful boolit.
Sprink

hey Sprink, did you use 9mm brass? if so i would appreciate details: number of draws, size of punch, etc.

i agree those BT bases are great looking, and perhaps i can make it work, not sure just yet...

Cane_man

08-16-2013, 01:28 PM

Cane,

I don't remember how you made your de-rimming die for 22lr, and maybe you already know this. For the draw dies I would make "die holders" and then insert drill bushings in the appropriate sizes. You can either leave a shoulder in the "die holder" or buy the drill bushings with shoulders on them. That will keep them from being pushed through the die as you as drawing the brass.

I wonder if the lines in the Berger bullet are there to assist in the "mushrooming" effect. I've never hunted with them, but a friend has and I've seen pictures of deer that he shot with a 7mm08, massive bleeding and trauma. I've seen lots of deer shot with everything from .243, 6.5X55, 7mm mag, .308, and 30-06, occasionally one would have similar blood loss, wound.

Don't know about you but when hunting I like to use the best bullets, cartridges, etc. available. To me it's the cheapest investment of the whole experience. I load tungsten (2X heavier than lead) for my turkey hunting, it cost almost $80/lb, that's $10 per shot, not counting load development, sighting in etc. But I went from 100 hits in 10" at 40 yds to 400 hits in 10" at 40 yds. There's nothing even close available on the market. But I also know how great the feeling is to know you've taken game with a cartridge or shell that you've loaded yourself. With all that said I'm 100% behind you, can't wait to see pics of the dies and game you take with the bullets.

CC

cc, i like that idea but how does the bushing stay inside the threaded body and keep from falling out? i understand a shoulder to keep them from being pushed out the top...

i dont plan to hunt with these swaged 30 cal... i have the same philosophy you have and try to use the best i can afford and make work with my rifle... in Kommie-fornia where i hunt i have to use all kremlin approved non-lead copper bullets, fortunately the Barnes TSX i use works really well and have good accuracy... these swaged 30 cal are for practice and SHTF potential barter/use ;) i would like to say that i know how well they take down deer but i have not tagged out yet in my life! this will be my 3rd deer season (i got started late in life, self taught), and the area i hunt near my house (one hour drive away) has a 5% tagout rate, very crowded, not a large deer population, on public land... it is what it is no sob story here, i see it as another challenge to be conquered...

i went scouting last week and jumped a 5 point, 4 point, and forked horn all in velvet and summer red coats... they are there but the aliens seems to abduct them on opening day once the first shot is fired and they go missing! these deer like to hang out on top of the mountain where there is lots of browse/shade/springs/cooler temps, the top also has a network of dirt roads on it giving road hunters easy access, and my theory is that when the season starts the deer feel the pressure and come down off the peak to the lower foothills to hide out... what was cool is that these two larger bucks were hunter educated and wary, and when they saw me they ran off pogo sticking and i saw their escape route! they didn't go over the ridge like i thought but stotted down this canyon where there are no roads below... they were bedded in the shade about 20 yards uphill from me yet they ran straight down across my position to this draw instead of running up and away, i always see the does and spikes run uphill from danger but not these guys... my thought is on opening weekend to position myself lower where these escape canyons are and let the road hunters drive them to me! nice theory anyway and fun to dream about and hope it is that easy :)

303british.com

08-16-2013, 02:24 PM

Cane_man

08-16-2013, 03:12 PM

initial thoughts on drawing down a 9mm case:

-hardest draw will be the 1st draw when it is derimmed just like a 22LR is, the 9mm case is about 0.390 so perhaps the first draw should be 0.380 or so just for derimming

-after that perhaps three steps from 0.380 to 0.305, thats 0.025 per draw and seems like a lot and not sure if it is possible

-probably have to anneal after each draw if using a reloading press like i am :(

customcutter

08-16-2013, 03:49 PM

When I used the drill bushing, I measured the OD of the bushing then bored out my pocket in the die. As long as you keep a tight tolerance (.001-.002), it will be what is called a "press fit". Worse case scenario, use a little lock tite to hold it in. I agree, sooner or later we won't be able to buy "components". I probably could have bought more bullets than I'll ever shoot, with what I've spent trying to make dies, but I like to be self reliant. Plus I'm learning machining skills, I hope.

I hunted public land till I was almost 40, then I finally could afford to join a lease. Completely different story, learn what they are feeding on at that time of year, where they are bedding, like you said escape routes. Usually the thicker the better for the bigger deer, unless it's the rut. That's another thing, always try to be in the woods when the rut is going on. Bucks get completely stupid. Now I'm hunting my in-laws ranch in Alabama, for turkey. I'll take a rifle at Thanksgiving and try to get a deer or coyote if it's not freezing cold and 30MPH winds. I also like portable climbers, for getting up off the ground and seeing more. I see way more deer now than when we used to drive the deer with dogs. You're also right about letting other hunters drive the deer to you. Be the first one into the woods and try staying as late in the morning as you can, those other hunters will drive the deer past you.

sprinkintime

08-16-2013, 10:31 PM

Cane Man; no I tried 9mm to much problems and Dies for drawing, I am using RCE jackets, for me the price is right
compared to the extra time in drawing those 9's. The hardest part is making the punch, they are so thin if you don't go to a rebated BT, and I didn't. I only make the boatails on 168gr. + on my flat bottoms are 150 or less.
Sprink

Forrest r

08-17-2013, 05:42 AM

Stephen Cohen

08-17-2013, 06:58 AM

I don't swage projectiles, but what I do know is from reading on this site. Last year I wanted some projectiles to form some 375 Whelen shells. my answer was to run some cleaned and annealed 9mm shells through a push through die, I then filled them with shot and hit them with a torch this melted lead and annealed case, I then put them into a 243 sizing die to give them a bit of an orgive and gave them a run through the push through sizer again. Now they were not pretty but they did the job and shot into an inch and a half at 30mtrs. I have since thought that good bullets could be made with 9mm if one didn't over think the project, what would be wrong with a nice flat point with large metplate, seems it would be easier to make the nose forming die and and a larger stronger diameter ejection pin could be used. I may be wrong in my thoughts but it just seems like it would be easier than trying to make a conventional type nose form die for plinking and close range hunting.

Cane_man

08-17-2013, 09:23 AM

I found that the 32acp cases work best for making 30cal bullets.

Some plinking bullets 165gr sp 308's.

79378

It best to do 4 draws, the smaller the dia the thicker/longer the brass base gets. I also had to anneal the brass twice, 1st time to begin the drawing & for the last draw. The cores need to be .250" or less.

I like the lead nosed bullets for the 30cal, the die can easily be adjusted to make 110gr pills to 220gr thumpers.

good luck

Forrest, how did you make your draw dies, and do they fit in a standard reloading press?

i was thinking the HF 1 ton arbor press would be perfect for drawing down the 9mm to 0.305, but how would you attach the dies and punch?

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_18449.jpg

i am looking into some used taper crimp dies for the draw downs, is the drawing too much pressure for a reloading press?

Cane_man

08-17-2013, 09:28 AM

Prospector Howard

08-17-2013, 12:25 PM

Cane, I did what you're planning so I'll tell what I did in case you're interested. The only difference is I did it for my 8mm k-98 instead of going all the way to 30 cal. The draw dies are the biggest headache in this. I did 3 dies in equal draws to get down to .321. I tried doing the 1st die in the press, and nearly broke my classic cast press. X that idea. Put a nut on the die and put it on a block of wood and drove it through with a hammer, (better idea). Went and bought some short 1 inch diameter grade 8 bolts and used them instead of 7/8 inch, they would be stronger and they won't be going in the press anyway. I also wanted a bigger base to put on the block of wood. I routered out a small area the shape of the head of the bolt, so it won't move around; and drilled a hole in the middle so it could go through into the wood. After drilling the initial hole through the bolt I used a 22 degree RCBS VLD reamer to make the angle pretty shallow so it starts easy. There were some machining lines left by the reamer so I used a half round needle file to smooth it out before lapping to final size. I also take the rim off the 9mm case in the lathe before drawing, so it goes through easier. I also had to make 3 different size punches, because it shrinks inside with each draw. The inside of the cases are tapered too, so you have watch that also. With this method I've found I only have to anneal once at the begining. The rest of the dies are the same as the .223 dies you've aleady made. The only other thing I did was make a final sizer die to make sure every bullet is uniform. These bullets are really labor intensive, so I don't make very many. I just figured I'd try it, so I could use the 9mm brass for something after I couldn't reload them anymore.

Cane_man

08-17-2013, 07:49 PM

thanks for the tips Howard, i appreciate it... i picked up a used 0.356 taper crimp die and i am going to see how my press can handle this for the first draw... if it seems to overload the press then i may look into the HF arbor press and see if i can Okie rig something up with it...

Forrest r

08-17-2013, 09:05 PM

I use the same hf 1 ton press, use it to swage 9mm's down for 357 jackets & 32acp's down for 30cal jackets. I also use the press to make pb & standard gc's.

I also use bolts, 7/8-14 grade 5, bought a bunch of them awhile back & use them to make swaging dies for jackets & to size lead boolits. Just put a washer under the bolt when you use them in an arbor press.

P howard is correct I also use 3 draws to get to .323", the 1st draw id down to .354", I can use the same draw die for 32acp or 9mm's. He is also correct about having the right size push pin, too big & the brass will press/weld itself to the pin. Too small & the brass base can & will distort causing fliers. I anneal the brass again for the 4th/last draw, I can really tell the difference when I swage them. The brass web of the case is well over 1/4" thick by then. Use the same lube you've been using on your 224's on the brass & push pins.

I anneal the bolts & drill them out to the rough size of the draw dai. Then I used #6 & 7 taper pin reamers (depending on draw dia again) to taper the draw die. When I find where the taper ends at the right dia, I counter bore/drill the bottom of the draw die & then final lap/polish the draw die.

I won't get into re-hardening the bolt/push pin or moly treating the final product, you know how to do those things in your sleep.

I don't know the #'s off of the top of my head, if you need them I can measure what the 4 draw dies I made to do the 30cal jackets along with their push pin sizes to give you some ballpark #'s that you can use to fine tune your own draw dies.

Yes these take some work to do/make but making your own jackets out of copper tubing is a 5 or 6 step process also.

The 9mm brass will give you a longer jacket but that didn't matter to me because I went with a simple lead nose design. This winter I plan on making a pointed hp nose forming die & a swc hp nose forming die. The lead noses are super simple to make/use/shoot.

I'm excited to see you wanting to tackle the 30cals!!!! Most swages do the .224's, there a lot easier to do.

On a side note:
I like the lead bullet/ 1/2 jacket style of bullets & the range brass laying around is perfect for this.

Some 147gr .357's that I also resize to .355 for the 9mm for the 9mm & 38spl/357mag.

79424

Some 220gr .429's made from 40s&w cases for the 44spl/mag.

79425

And some 205gr .451's made from 40s&w cases for the 45acp.

79426

I plan on making some different nose forming dies this winter when I get time to try/test some different nose profiles.

Cane_man

08-20-2013, 10:27 AM

how can i drill a hole, that is on center, on the bottom of the ram so i can put a punch in it?

i am limited to using a cheap bench top drill press, and a chines lathe that does not have a large enough bore to fit the ram through it...

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_18449.jpg

Cane_man

08-20-2013, 02:51 PM

for $10 more Enco sells this one and the end of the ram is already drilled out, done deal:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=890-8803&PMPXNO=3463252

http://www.use-enco.com/ProductImages/0389120-11.jpg

customcutter

08-20-2013, 04:34 PM

If you add FREE29 before final checkout you can get free shipping all month long from Enco on orders over $29. Hope this helps.

Cane_man

08-20-2013, 05:29 PM

thanks! says it was 20+ pounds got it shipped free! :-o

Cane_man

08-20-2013, 08:49 PM

went home, torched a 9mm case orange and dumped it in water... put the 9mm Redding Crimp die in the press, put a 0.348 punch in the press, could not make the lubed case inside the die more than 1/8"... the forces were too much for my taste so i am glad i got the arbor press and going this route instead...

R.Ph. 380

08-21-2013, 12:38 AM

If you add FREE29 before final checkout you can get free shipping all month long from Enco on orders over $29. Hope this helps.

Thanks, got it shipped free. Been looking for exactly this arbor press.

Bill

customcutter

08-21-2013, 03:33 PM

Glad it helped. They run a free shipping several times a month, and sometimes 20-30% off. Even on their on sale items. Once you're on their e-mail list they will send notifications.

Cane_man

08-24-2013, 08:20 PM

I have had some type to look into the archives and plan this one out... i was going to delay this until after deer season and Thanksgiving, but the wife gave me some bonus points for shop time today, i have a three day weekend next weekend, and then my wife is going out to visit her mom the following weekend, so i have a little time to play :)

this is how i see the 9mm to 30 cal bullet, it will be similar to some aspects of making the 0.224 dies, and some parts of the 10mm/40sw dies... here is the preliminary plan:

This bullet will be patterned after the Berger 30 Cal 150gr FBHP Match Grade bullet.

1) 9mm Draw Down - need to draw the 0.380 OD 9mm case down to 0.305 for core seating... i will try to do this in three draws, annealing after each draw... this seems like a bummer at first, annealing after each draw, but realistically i am not going to swage huge batches of 30 cals... i can see batches of 25 to 50 at a time, and annealing that many with a torch is nothing... drawing puts too much force on my reloading press, so i will do the drawing on an arbor press... plan to modify it some, and attach a die holder to the base and use draw inserts made from tool steel...

2) Making Cores - seems like folks are using 0.25" lead wire for cores on the 30 cal bullets... i picked up an economical Lee 7mm 140gr 2 banger... it is supposed to drop at 0.285, so i will trim these bullets to about 90gr (90gr core + 60gr case = 150gr), then try to size them in a sizing insert i will make to 0.265 or so and see if they will drop in the case...

3) Core Seating - since the cases are 9mm, the casehead is super tough and won't budge when pushing a lead core against it... the advantage of this is that the core seating die can be a thru hole die with a fairly large eject punch, i plan to make one similar to what i did here with the 10mm/40SW dies:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2232644&viewfull=1#post2232644

this thru hole core seating die is far easier than making the type that was required for the 0.224 dies!

4) Point Forming Die - and let the fun begin... i believe 30 cal has an 8S ogive, and it will be made just like the 0.224 pointing die... make the d reamer, 2 flute finish reamer, heat treat, bullet laps, and get it on... :guntootsmiley:

Cane_man

08-24-2013, 08:35 PM

1) 9mm Draw Down

first order of business is to get the arbor press setup, i bought the enco model pictured above several posts ago... it cost me a little more than the HF similar press, but this model has a 1/2" hole bored in the ram, and it was worth it to me to go ahead and get it just for this... i dont have the tooling or skill to drill a hole on the bottom of the ram and get it centered axially... the press comes out of the box like a greased pig and it must be disassembled and degreased, so i took a small container of mineral spirits to it and a paint brush and shop rag and got it all cleaned up:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/arbor-press001_zps46a71778.jpg

one mod that i thought was a good idea is to grind off the first two teeth on the ram, what this does is it enables the handle to be positioned wherever needed to gain maximum leverage... this ole boy does a real good job explaining it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFfx2_bj104

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/arbor-press003_zps29efd746.jpg

the bore is drilled out to 1/2", but for this project i will use 3/8" grade 5 bolts for the draw down punches, so i needed to make a sleeve so it would fit snug in the ram... also, i drilled and tapped a 1/4-20 hole for a set screw to keep the punch secure (bad pic, but this is all i could do):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/arbor-press005_zps416c0dba.jpg

finally, here is the arbor press all put together with the mods, i will have to set some bolts on my bench to hold down the back part of the base, other than that it is almost good to go:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/arbor-press012_zpsc3fde709.jpg

last thing to do is the make a base for the draw down inserts... i have some 1" x 2" 1018 coming in so i can attach it to the base of the arbor press, drill a hold in it and use set screws to snug in the dies... i will do this over the next few weeks... the draw down will be the second hardest part of this project, so getting it done in the next few weeks will put me in a good place to pick this project back up again in a few months...

customcutter

08-24-2013, 08:55 PM

Looks good. I would have never thought that an arbor press would generate enough pressure, but I noticed someone (ForrestR IIRC) else said they use a 1ton press for drawing down the 9mm. I would have thought you would need the camming action of a reloading or swage press. I figured you'd have these 30 cal dies knocked out over a 3 day weekend.:kidding:
That's a good mod being able to get the handle in the area to generate the most leverage.

Cane_man

08-25-2013, 01:13 PM

i got a chance to cast some of these 7mm-130gr boolits to use as cores, this inexpensive Lee mold did a pretty decent job as they dropped at 0.285 and 132gr, not bad! the original 130gr bullet on the left, and how much it needs to be trimmed to get 90gr on the right... i used some tin snips here just to get an idea how far to trim, but i will run them through my bullet trimmer you can see on this link:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2263498&viewfull=1#post2263498

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/30cal-cores004_zps2cb07e92.jpg

here is my casting setup, i like to crib up the pot so i can see underneath while i stand when casting, i also got a cookie sheet for containment in case my Lee drip-o-matic decides to let it all go... the PID i made for about $90 and it has been awesome and highly recommended... also one great tip i got here on CB was to use a paint roller pan to drop your bullets in:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/30cal-cores003_zps446b6bc3.jpg

here is another great tip i got from runfiver, place a tuna can on top of your mold when you preheat it on the electric burner, i put some ceramic insulation inside just because i had some from another project... i know if i put the burner on 'medium' and let it sit for about 15' the mold gets preheated where i need it, set and forget...

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/30cal-cores002_zps6afbb833.jpg

i will make a 0.265 sizing insert and see how these cores size up, and hopefully they are a small enough diameter to drop right into the 0.305 drawn 9mm cases... still waiting for some 1018 steel to come in, but hopefully it will come in next week and i can start drawing jackets :)

customcutter

08-25-2013, 01:27 PM

I noticed the Lee pot in last post and the PID. Mines been sitting in the box for a couple of months now. I've seen on some of the other sections that the PID's are highly recommended by some, others say not so necessary. I'll try it without first, as I am only casting cores. Still need to get busy and smelt that 70# of roofing lead I bought also. Something else that needs done.

Cane_man

08-31-2013, 07:09 PM

got around to drawing cases today... made my die holder and a draw down die to go from 0.390 to 0.356 and it worked pretty well after a few adjustments:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/draw1-to-356001_zps5192352f.jpg

first case i tried to draw down was a disaster, mangled it up inside the die, had to punch it out with a bolt... then i realized i had to make a few changes :Bright idea:

-had to have a punch diameter 0.030 to 0.040 smaller than the die size, before i did this the case would get stuck in the die... after i sized the punch properly the case pushed right through

-the nose of the punch had to be tapered because the case would stick to it, after i tapered to nose the cases dropped right out

-didn't take too much force to pull the handle down and push the case through the die, about the same force as derimming 22LR on a swage press, then i added a 30"piece of 3/4" water pipe to the handle and the cases went through easy, too easy... so much so i think i can get this thing done in only 2 draws now instead of 4 or 3 like i first thought...

-tried cases that were annealed to orange with a torch, and cases that were annealed at 825F for 1 hour in my Lee 4-20 pot, and i liked the latter better as they seemed to hold up better than the flamed cases (less deformation on the head), here are three:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/draw1-to-356002_zpsb30f19b1.jpg

lessons learned:

-mandatory to get the punch lined up on center with die, otherwise the head will not be square
-the cases hold up better to the draw down if they are annealed in the Lee pot at 825F for 1 hour (they clean up better too in the vibratory tumbler without getting 'sparkles' on the tips)
-punch needs to be the right diameter and the nose tapered back
-the arbor press can do this job easily... i was thinking i might need to make a hydraulic press but after adding the pipe extension to the press arm this wont be necessary now...
-only needed one bolt on the back of the arbor press to hold it down, worked like a champ

tomorrow i am going to make a 0.346 draw down die as the 1st draw, and then a 2nd at 0.305 to see if this can be done in 2 steps...

Twmaster

08-31-2013, 08:00 PM

Pretty nice setup and write-up.

customcutter

08-31-2013, 09:45 PM

Sweet, looks like you'll finish .30's before I get my .224. No shop time today.

Cane_man

09-03-2013, 08:16 PM

got a chance to finish up some draw dies yesterday, here are the preliminary 3 draws from 9mm fired to 0.357, 0.345, 0.324, 0.308... not very pretty, and i am not sure if they are even usable (all three are the same final size):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/draw1-to-356-v2_zps997e23b2.jpg

i need to play around with it with different sequences of draw downs, annealing etc.

the 2 draw process would not work, i was trying to draw from 9mm to 0.345, to 0.308 and it was too big a draw to work well... i think at a minimum 3 draws are needed, but i experimented with four above...

i may make a rough core seating die this weekend that will fit in the arbor press block and see if seating the core squares up the case, otherwise if it does not then the process i am using now is not going to work...

customcutter

09-03-2013, 09:15 PM

Just trying to figure out what is causing the bend. Is the punch diameter close to the ID of the final drawn down cases? Is that much "rounding" of the tip necessary? I know you commented once before on it, just didn't know if you could get by with less? Are the cases twisting to the same side of the die, when they exit the die? If so it might be a problem with the finish or one side could be slightly longer than another. I guess it could even be how evenly they are annealed?

Just some food for thought.

Reload3006

09-04-2013, 07:10 AM

i think what could be causing your bend. "a guess" is that your not starting square. If you had a short diameter to center the case in the draw die it will start square and probably help that. Also misalignment of die to punch will cause that.

Prospector Howard

09-04-2013, 09:21 AM

Cane, It looks like you're going to have to put centering pins on your punches like I did. With punches that have to be smaller than the inside of the case, they can move off center and cause the bases to do that. The centering pins go through the primer flash hole, and help keep the pressure of the punch in the middle. It helps quite a bit, but I still get some that the bases aren't perfectly square. Cutting the rims off the cases seamed to help some too for some reason. The primer flash hole shrinks when you draw it also, so the centering pins have to be smaller than the hole; or it will get stuck on the pin.

Cane_man

09-04-2013, 10:40 AM

thanks for the suggestions guys... centering, this is it for sure... the case 'floats' on top of the draw die and is hard to make it stable and centered so i will have to figure out some way to get them square/centered in the die before and as i push them thru... hmmmmmm, something to work on this weekend :wink:

Forrest r

09-04-2013, 07:34 PM

Very good cm, you've come a long way in a hurry!!!!

A couple of things to ponder:

Did 4 draws & 2 anneals to draw my 9mm cases down to .304, the initial annealing & annealed again for the final draw.
Used 1/2 (.250) core.
Used loooong slender draw dies made from 3" bolts, drill bit & taper pin reamers (#7 & #6).

The loooong draw dies worked better keeping the bases square/true than the short draw dies. The 2nd annealing of the brass for the final draw helped keep the bases square/true.

I believe the problem comes from the bases having too much brass (too thick). The more they're drawn down the thicker the base becomes. The thinker the brass, the more pressure it takes to swage them. As with anything that is under pressure, it will take the least path of resistance.

I started playing with 32acp brass (smaller/thinner web) & then got busy with work/casting/reloads & most importantly range time. What I was thinking of doing/trying was to cut the base of the drawn bullets off/down after the 2nd draw with a hf saw. I've cut/trued the bases of the cases I've drawn to .304 with no problem. The swaging die will true the base to the body of the bullet during the swaging process. It's just easier to do without 1/4" to 3/8" of solid brass in the base of the swaged 9mm cases.

Just something to think about.

Cane_man

09-05-2013, 10:23 AM

worked on a prototype last night and it lead to another evolution... what i need to do is:

1) make a bushing, like a drill bushing, that fits on top of the draw die that will support the case before it is drawn and keep it centered while going into the die

2) turn a small point on the bottom of the punch, much like what you see on a decapping pin, that will just fit inside the flash hole, and perhaps this will help keep the case on center as well...

i am thinking that it is a waste of time to turn the diameter of the punch to the ID of the drawn case, so i am going to play around with using a 1/4" grade 8 bolt and see where that takes me...

edit: forrest i feel ya on those taper pin reamers, if this next evolution doesn't work out then i will get the #6 and #7 and go from there... i try to taper them with a small file but it goes slow and doesn't work all that well...

edit/edit: reload, i am going to make an alignment punch also i can start out with the die/punch aligned with the ram...

thanks for the help guys, i am thankful i have a group of great folks who will help on something like this, i think i see the light at the end of the tunnel on this part of the project... really, this will be the hardest part, as i can see core seating pretty straight forward and the pointing die is what it is and it is a challenge for any caliber...

Cane_man

09-06-2013, 09:20 PM

still working on prototypes, but things are looking up, will post photos this weekend if i get the dies finished...

Howard, i finally pulled the trigger on the 115 piece Cobalt drill bit set from HF... $129 regular price, on sale for $99, got a 25% off coupon and got it for $74!!!! felt like i just robbed them, 115 cobalt drill bits for $74: 1/16 thru 1/2 by 1/64, letter sizes A thru Z, and wire sizes to #1 thru #60 :guntootsmiley:

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_20359.jpg

Prospector Howard

09-08-2013, 01:03 PM

Glad to see you pulled the trigger. Best deal going I could find on drill bits that actually work good.

junkman1967

09-08-2013, 01:21 PM

Looks like you are progressing nicely. Any chance of doing a tutorial on making the dies themselves?

Cane_man

09-08-2013, 04:42 PM

i am going to claim victory on the drawing part of this project :2_high5: with a little help from my friends... here is a before and after: on the left is the drawn case with all the new improvements, and the right was my original draw:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/draw-v3007_zps87e104e2.jpg

i took all the suggestions you guys gave me and here is what made the difference:

1) turned a small tit on the nose of the punch so it would center on the flash hole, also i just used this one punch for all 4 draws using a 1/4" grade 8 bolt

2) made a 'bushing' that sits on top of the die and helps keep the case on center as it enters the draw die

3) made a centering bushing to make sure the die block was centered with the ram, and then added some hold down clamps to secure the die block in place, you can see that here:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/draw-v3009_zpse8cc121a.jpg

did 4 draws total, annealed on the last draw so there are a total of 2 anneals... not too bad

now that i know what needs to be done with the draw dies i am going to redo these dies and bushings as there are a few minor mods i would make and i went ahead on got a couple of taper pin reamers... i plan to let this project sit for a while now and get back on it in November, ill report back then, and hopefully i can get this project done by the end of the year

i am wondering if it would be better to remove the primer before drawing?

also, is there a way to make some type of simple 'annealing machine', like a wheel you turn that puts the case in the flame, then dumps it in water??? idk

Cane_man

09-08-2013, 04:47 PM

Looks like you are progressing nicely. Any chance of doing a tutorial on making the dies themselves?

i can do that, they are really straight forward to make... do you have a lathe? they are just pass thru dies just like Lee sizing dies, i make them from 9/16" O1 tool steel which is easy to find and not terribly expensive (3' stick for about $10)... basically drill a hole in them to whatever size you are after (using a step drilling method) and then use a file to taper the mouth, then heat treat and polish... i can show step by step pics but it is going to be a few months...

i am using 4 draw dies for this project with these inside diameters: 0.360, 0.344, 0.323, 0.305

Twmaster

09-08-2013, 06:23 PM

For simple annealing it's been suggested to use a 20# lead pot that's never had molten metal in it. Crank it up, let sit for a few minutes and dump the brass out.

There's also a sticky on annealing at the top of this forum (I think it's this forum! ;))

Cane_man

09-08-2013, 08:03 PM

^^^ i did that for the first 3 draws, i had some leftover 9mm brass that i had annealed in my Lee 4-20... it works really well, i wrap the cases in foil, then put some ceramic insulation on top, then set the PID to 825F for 1 hour... but for the last draw i didn't want to wait around so i torched them red and dropped them in water, 30s vs 1 hour :)

junkman1967

09-08-2013, 08:08 PM

Cane Man,
I do have a lathe and a mill. I will attempt making one, based on your description. Thanks for the info.

The hard one for me to wrap my head around is the die that forms the shape of the projectile. I was thinking of making a reamer in the profile of the bullet to ream the die. IS that the way it is done?

Cane_man

09-08-2013, 08:16 PM

go for it Junkman... key is to make the most gradual taper you can going into the die... i also like to 'relieve' the last 3/8" or so of the die by drilling it out larger so the case won't hang up on its way out (i dont know if this is possible, but i still like to add this to the exit part of the die, makes my OCD calm down :) )...

not sure if you are going to use my setup i have here with the die block and the arbor press, or do you have another idea in mind? i didn't want to do this on my reloading press as i didn't want to break it :oops:

also key is the 'bushing' that sits on top of the die to make sure the case enters the die on center and square... i am sure there are other ways to do this than the way i did it...

if you are not using hardened steel, like annealed O1, you will want to heat treat it as this reduces the friction in the die and makes it more wear resistant, here is a description of how i heat treat O1:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2308039&viewfull=1#post2308039

sprinkintime

09-08-2013, 10:06 PM

I would like to say one thing on the anneling process, when you do put it in the oven after 1 hr, just turn oven off don't open let it cool slowly you will have a better grain structure.
Sprink

AMProducts

09-09-2013, 06:46 AM

I don't really mean to rain on the parade here... but starting with 9mm is a long way to go to get it down anywhere near .30". I can barely believe you pulled it off with that little arbor press. It looks like you have a good variable draw (the shape of the punch) to get it to a point where it should close.

Cane_man

09-09-2013, 11:52 AM

i have read where some guys are taking the 9mm draw all the way to 0.277 and 0.257!

the arbor press is easy to use especially when you add a 30" section of water pipe to the handle :)

Forrest r

09-09-2013, 07:49 PM

I do the same thing as cm, a 30" pipe & treat the draw dies with the moly bore paste.

I'll be doing another batch of 500 this winter ( might go 1000 this time). It seems like a lot of work with all the drawing, annealing & cleaning/lubing but it really isn't. I have a 10m airgun range in the basement that I use in the winter months (ne ohio) & it's nothing to work on the 30 bullets between sets with the rifles & pistol.

CM, a little fine tuning goes a long way with the 30 cal jackets. Give it some thought & by november I'm sure you'll of really got a handle on this. I'm sure I'm missing something & just haven't found it yet. You have a real knack for sniffing out the best way of doing things like this.

forrest r

Cane_man

09-10-2013, 11:37 AM

i'm with you forrest, i don't care about how long it takes to swage the bullets, this is not a business for me... i enjoy the entire process from making the dies to tumble polishing the final bullets...

Cane_man

09-11-2013, 09:05 PM

good day today, picked up a Lee 6.5 Swede 170gr 'cruise missile' mold to make my 30 cal cores from at a decent price right here on swappin n selling... this mold will cast at 0.268 and should size easily down to 0.262 or so and drop right into the swaged 9mm cases, and trimmed to length using my lead trimmer to 90 grains...

the 7mm mold i was using didn't like being sized down less than 0.270 without a big fuss so i am going a different route here...

trim the cast bullet down so it weights 90gr, then size it to 0.262 by making a pass thru sizer and i will be good to go:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd282/tburdette303/Miscellaneous/IMG_0125.jpg

Cane_man

09-28-2013, 09:01 PM

i didn't expect a buck on opening day, but it happened so now i am ready to pick up this project again...

here is a California Muley forked horn (ours our smaller than your rocky mnt mulies, he turned his butt to me so i shot him through the corner of both eyes (was aiming for the neck but i'll take it, this is my first buck and my 3rd season), had to pack out about 40 lbs of meat 3/4 of a mile with a 1000 foot elevation gain and it kicked my butt:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-d9buckopeningday20131_zpsbdb5b0aa.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-d9buckopeningday20132_zpsa24a701c.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-d9buckopeningday2013-meal_zps75ea4d64.jpg

newcastter

09-29-2013, 06:57 PM

Congratulations Caneman on your success, I am gearing up for our season here in PA. Got to love the mushrooms and venison you have in there, pour a little beer in the mix and you might be suprised.

Cane_man

09-29-2013, 07:29 PM

thanks New!

you are so right about the beer, and if you really want to do it right then get a bottle of Guiness and cook with that (crock pot, or saute)... i am going to do this with one of the rump roast for the crock pot

Cane_man

10-13-2013, 10:22 AM

i decided to expand this project to include 7mm so i can feed my 7mm-08 Tikka deer rifle... two more draws is all it takes to get to 0.280 to make 7mm projectiles, specifically this will be 140gr FBHP 6s tangent ogive 7mm-08 bullets... .243 cast bullets will be used as cores...

i have made the proof of concept draw dies, six total, and i am going to redo them now with design improvements, so here is the draw die system:

anneal 9mm range brass
1 - .390 drawn to .352, from here 9mm or .357mag bullets can be made
2 - 0.352 drawn to 0.236
3 - 0.236 drawn to 0.320

anneal, this anneal will also be for 30 cal core seating and point forming
4 - 0.320 drawn to 0.304, 30 cal can be made here
5 - 0.304 drawn to 0.292, as the jacket gets thinner with each draw it gets more difficult to do the next draw

anneal, this final anneal will be for 7mm core seating and point forming
6 - 0.292 drawn to 0.280, 7mm can be made here (there is a pic of the first 7mm case below sitting on the arbor press!)

3 anneals, seems like a lot, but this is for bolt rifle applications, and a batch of 50 to 100 bullets would be a normal size lot to make, and it is really easy to anneal in my Lee 4-20 PID controlled lead pot... takes a little time, but this is not a business for me it is a relaxing and enjoyable hobby and taking time is part of it!

i had to make a few more mods to my arbor press to make the draws work:

1) i bent the handle! probably made of inexpensive weak chicom steel :) so i replaced it with a 12" Grade 8 bolt, you can see the bent rod handle on the left!

2) i had to trim off 1" from the bottom of the ram to increase the travel length, i had to do this because i was not able to push the cases thru the draw dies all the way

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/arborpressmods_zpsba98686b.jpg

one thing i need to make is a fitting that will push/scrape off the drawn case from the punch, thinking of getting some flat bar and drilling a hole right near the end that fits around the punch, then cut an opening in the hole so it can be pushed against the punch... that sounded confusing, so i'll try to get a pic up when i get it done

Cane_man

10-18-2013, 06:12 PM

this project is really two in one, it is a 9mm draw system, and then a 30 cal and 7mm swaging system(s)... here is the design for the draw dies, i will probably be done in another week or so with the 9mm Draw system and will post more pics then:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DrawDieDesign_zps4f6d3259.jpg

note: drawing is just a concept drawing and not to scale!

die body - used 9/16" O1 tool steel, but you can use whatever you want... i step drilled the die body to the swage diameter I am looking for as the first step of making the draw die

top of the die - i drill about 1/4" on the top of the die to same to the OD of the brass case before it is drawn, then bevel the mouth of the die with a chamfering bit

end of die - i drill out a short section of relief maybe 1/8" long

taper - at this point there will be two transition lines inside the die, one from the top of the die, and one from the end of the die, and a #6 taper pin reamer is used to blend these together with a smooth taper

once the die has been tapered you rough lap it and get all the scoring lines out of it, heat treat with a flame to orange, quench in oil, then 60' in the oven at 350F to temper, let it cool then final polish the die and it is ready to go

bushing - this sits on top of the die, and the bottom part of drilled out to the OD of the die (9/16" in this case) and then squared up with an end mill... the bushing is drilled out to an ID that matches the OD of the case before it is drawn, then the mouth is beveled... i like to use 12L14 because it is easy to machine and it has some lubricating properties in it... the die ID should be just a little larger than the case... this bushing helps keep the case centered as it is enters the draw die... this part does not need to be heat treated, and i am using a 3/4" rod 12L14

there are a few more details here i am leaving out, ask if you have questions... it seems like it's always that last 10% that takes the most time but makes all the difference...

Twmaster

10-20-2013, 06:56 PM

Nice write-up and drawing. Thanks Cane_man.

Cane_man

10-20-2013, 10:11 PM

thanks t-dub!

Annealing

i did a lot of research on annealing brass the last few days because of this project and i found some really good information... because annealing the brass cases will be completed several times during the draw process i wanted to know more about it... here is one thing i found out that was interesting:

reloaders and swagers think they are annealing but what we are really doing is stress relieving the brass! ;)

ya, that's right, we are not annealing at all typically, and what i learned is that there are basically two temperature ranges that are important to us:

482F to 787F Recovery Phase - this is where the brass is stress relieved after it has been cold worked due to swaging, reloading, or firing

787F to 1380F Recrystalization Phase - this is where brass is annealed and made more ductile and soft, ideal for swaging

if you are reloading you want to stress relieve your brass and keep it below 750F, that is the magic number... if you are swaging you want the brass to be softer because of annealing and you need to get in the range of 1000F to 1200F but do not exceed 1350F... here is a chart for the material phases of brass versus how much zinc is in the mix:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/AnnealingChartforBrass_zps98f93afc.gif

you can see the two temperature ranges here in the chart, and we want to use the vertical line marked for cartridge brass which has 30% zinc...

next i wanted to know how i could tell if i was in the annealing temperature range if i was using a propane torch, it is really easy to get to orange with a torch and i always had a feeling that was too much heat for the brass... i found out that when a material is heated colored light is emitted at certain temperatures, this chart is for steel but i found that it can be used for brass as well:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/HeatedBrassColor_zpsa328deb6.gif

so when the brass is slightly red that is when you want to pull the case off the flame, if it is orange that is too late... and by the way, air cooled or water cooled makes no difference for brass... i found a tip that if you use swimming pool pH down in the quenching water it will descale the brass, i have a pool and i have some of this stuff so i am going to give it a try after i finish making my annealing jig (pics later)...

so what i decided to do is get a Tempilstik rated for 1200F to mark on the end of the case, and try to learn what the brass looks like at this temperature range with the flame on the casehead... i have this item coming in this week and will have some fun with it then, the temp crayon melts at the rated temperature:

http://www.pipelinesupply.com/images/Tempilstik.jpg

i finished the draw dies for 9mm range fired to size down to 30 cal and 7mm, i just need to moly treat them then i will post some pics of the dies and the setup... and i plan to draw a 50 case batch of 7mm and when i get those drawn and polished i will show you how they look... so far i am pleased with the results!

so remember, the next time you are annealing your reloading brass what you are really doing is stress relieving it :Bright idea:

R.Ph. 380

10-21-2013, 01:05 AM

Cane,

Thanks for that. That info may turn around my 22lr point forming. Thanks again

Bill

Forrest r

10-21-2013, 06:04 AM

Good info CM as usual!!!!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?204605-annealing-brass-the-old-fashioned-way

The old outdated & tasty method of annealing brass is how I roll. That deer pic you posted earlier looks like it would keep you in annealed brass for a month or two.

Cane_man

10-21-2013, 09:31 PM

LOL, keeping me going for sure! backstrap filets on the bbq tonight, but no brass:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/backstropbbq_zps9d83275f.jpg

Cane_man

10-26-2013, 01:05 PM

got my flame annealing jig done and finished annealing a batch of 50 9mm range pickups that i will use for this first test batch of draw downs to 7mm:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/flame-annealing004_zpseb461908.jpg

just a piece of angle that clamps on top of my reloading press... put the case on the rod, turn it on to the flame, and then at the right temp dump it in the water quench... i have always had shaky hands, and this annealing jig keeps the case steady and is easy for me to use... these cases are sitting in a bath of water with a tsp of pH Down swimming additive thrown it which helps to descale the cases after annealing, it works! i can get a large plastic container of this stuff from Home Depot for about $10...

the correct annealing temp is 1100F-1200F and it took some practice with a tempilstik to get it down... you see what is needed is for the thick casehead area to be thoroughly annealed while just barely annealing the top 3/4 of the case up to the mouth... anneal too much and the mouth area will tear and stretch too much while drawing, anneal too little and you could break your arbor press or dies because the rim area is too hard and tough... here is a pic i took while practicing that shows what the case looks like just before it starts to turn from red to orange:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/flame-annealing003_zpsdca52cf7.jpg

it is best to work in low light or the dark when doing this, but i just wear sunglasses and i can see the color change just fine... in the pic above what you see is that the flame from the propane torch will be blue and focused on the primer area at the beginning, but when the case color starts to turn red to orange a yellow flame will start to glow around the rim area and that is when you have to stop the annealing and quench the case

Cane_man

10-28-2013, 10:19 AM

just finished my first test batch of 9mm draw to 7mm, and i dialed in the annealing... edit to what is written above, to fully anneal the mouth of the case must be red... if the flame is at the casehead this means the rim will be orange but the mouth is red, i tried to snap a pic of this and hope this explains it:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum012_zps1c90ddb5.jpg

once the mouth turns red quench then you are good to go...

Cane_man

10-28-2013, 11:28 AM

9mm Draw Dies Test Run

Did up a batch of 44 9mm cases to draw them down to 7mm in 6 draws… here is a pic of the dies used, the smaller the diameter the longer the case gets that’s why the dies on the left are taller and the 9mm case starts at a OD of 0.390… two punches are use, 0.25 for drawing down to 0.320, then the smaller 0.220 for drawing down to 0.280…from left to right: 0.280, 0.292, 0.304, 0.320, 0.336, 0.352

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum001_zps9e8bb671.jpg

The dies store up real nice in a 3$ fishing tackle box from Walmart, i like to keep the bushing and die together on a 3" carriage bolt:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum007_zps41fc321d.jpg

Here is a case sitting in the bushing ready to be drawn:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum009_zps13c35dd5.jpg

Attached to the press handle is a 30” piece of water pipe, this is not needed very often if the cases are annealed properly, but every once in a while a case can be hard to push through:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum010_zps4724fb98.jpg

Here is the final draw progression of the cases from largest diameter to smallest going left to right: 9mm case, 0.352, 0.336, 0.320, 0.304, 0.292, 0.280

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum025_zps64f17e56.jpg

Here is a batch of 30 cal jackets ready to be core seated, approximately 0.95" length:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum013_zpsf397b17e.jpg

And here is a batch of 7mm (0.280) cases ready to be core seated, approximately 1.10" length:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum018_zpsbfd6d11b.jpg

This is the process I use with the dies:

1) clean range brass – do not deprime, lemishine and dawn in ultrasonic cleaner, dry in oven at 250F for 1 hour

2) anneal – propane anneal cases to 1200F-1300F, quench in water when the case mouth is cherry red (which means the case head will be orange), flame on the casehead, wear sunglasses and do in low light to see the case heat up, descale annealed cases in 'pH Down' pool additive

3) draw – 3 draws can be taken .352/.336/.320, use the large punch, lube with lanolin/castor oil mixture

4) anneal again, mouth cherry read rim orange

5) draw – 3 more draws can be taken .304/.292/.280, use the small punch, stop at .304 for 30 Cal

6) clean & polish – use ceramic media with lemishine and dawn in vibratory tumbler

occasionally a case will stick to the punch, if that happens then turn the stuck case down little by little in a lathe and it will eventually come off...

Prospector Howard

10-29-2013, 10:09 AM

Looks good Cane. Too bad you don't have an 8mm instead of a 7mm; less work. Even 3 draws for me to get to 8mm size takes some work. I see you're leaving the primers in. I couldn't see a reason to?

Cane_man

10-29-2013, 10:31 AM

Looks good Cane. Too bad you don't have an 8mm instead of a 7mm; less work. Even 3 draws for me to get to 8mm size takes some work. I see you're leaving the primers in. I couldn't see a reason to?

if the primer is out doesn't lead flow out when you seat the core?

it sure would be easier to have the primer out, or so it seems...

Prospector Howard

10-29-2013, 11:16 AM

The flash holes on mine shrink to a very small hole after the 3rd draw. Also I don't bump the size up hardly at all (less than half a thou) in the core seating die, so I don't have to crank on the pressure to fill it out. If a tiny bit of lead tries to squirt through, I just flatten it out in the primer pocket. Now that I see that you will probably be bumping it up in size quite a bit you should probably leave them in, you might get a lot more lead to squirt through.

Forrest r

10-30-2013, 08:16 AM

Very good work !!!!!

I also take the primers out anymore, just makes the draws easier & I've never had a problem with the lead cores.

Twmaster

10-30-2013, 07:30 PM

That's one heckuva progression from 9MM brass to those jackets. Great looking work Cane-Man.

BT Sniper

10-31-2013, 01:46 AM

Yep good work! Remove the primer first. You will get better results. There is so little left of the primer pocket after a case is drawn this much. Even if the lead does flow threw what is left of the flash hole it will stop when it hits your base punch and makes very little if any difference.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

BT Sniper

10-31-2013, 01:48 AM

Cane_man

11-11-2013, 11:28 AM

got most of the kinks worked out of the draw dies so now its time to move on to making the core sizing die... it is a very simple die to make using only my small Chicom lathe to make it work with a Lee Expander Die Body for 32acp and my Rockchucker press:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/CoreSizingDie_zps74b3a39b.jpg

note: drawing is just a concept drawing and not to scale!

as you can see a 2" long 5/8" fine grade 5 bolt (grade 5 is easier to drill on my lathe and it is more than strong enough) will be used as both the die stop punch and the pass thru punch... the actual core sizing die is just a 9/16" by 1-1/8" length of O1 drilled out to approximately 0.235" and then heat treated (the green part of the drawing)... for cores i will be using a Lyman .243Win boolit mold which drops them to a diameter of 0.248 and 84 grains... the standard core size for 7mm is 0.25" lead wire, but i will size the boolits to 0.235" or so and they will drop into the drawn jackets with no problem at all... since the jacket is 60gr, and the core is 84gr, i may have to trim the boolits a little to get them to my design wight of 140gr, but i am not sure i will be doing that just yet...

the die drops inside the Lee die body, the bolt locks it in place, and then the die is screwed into the press... i will also be making a "case" holder from tool steel to attach the punches, it will use a set screw and this will be the first time i have made a system like this for my punches... i had been turning down grade 8 bolts but this is really a pain so it think this method will work much better... i have some 1144 "Stress Proof" rod (stress proof is the trade name for this steel) coming in which i will be trying out for punches... Stress Proof is a high yield strength steel that turns fairly easily and is somewhat inexpensive to purchase from Mcmaster.com

Cane_man

11-11-2013, 12:02 PM

.... by the way.... nice job on your hunting success! Hope you connect with one of your hoe made bullets in future! That is a pretty cool feeling! Only got two deer with bullets I have made so far but I have a lot of hunting left to do!

Swage on!

BT

thanks! unfortunately the communist governmental authorities in this state will not allow me to hunt with lead bullets [smilie=b:

customcutter

12-13-2013, 09:42 PM

Cane,

Nice buck. Quick question on the die, I'm speed reading some of these old threads, and just want to make sure I've got it right. The core die is for OD only, it's not a squirt die, correct?

thanks,
CC

Cane_man

12-13-2013, 11:38 PM

here are my definitions for my swaging dies:

core sizing die: this die takes cast boolits and sizes them to the correct OD so they can be seated in cores, and is the die you see above... the ID of that die (0.235") will be the sized OD of the lead core... I am using a Lyman .243Win mold that drops them at 0.248 and 89 grains... so to answer you question this die acts like a squirt die and sizes the cores for seating...

core seating die - i will post a detailed drawing of that in a few weeks, which uses my system of the Lee die body and drop in tool steel inserts...

more to come

Twmaster

12-14-2013, 10:46 AM

Those diagrams ought to be interesting. As usual. Standing by looking forward to your continued adventure.

Cane_man

12-21-2013, 10:23 PM

finally got to work in the shop today and finish the core sizer, takes a cast .243 boolit and sizes it down for core seating… here I am using a Lyman mold that drops the cast boolits at 0.248, a tad too large for the 7mm jacket, so I sized them down to 0.235 and they slip in most of the way:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-core-sizer001_zps7c68bc01.jpg

not much to look at but the die slips inside of the threaded die body, and you can see the boolit ready to be pushed up thru the die (pass thru punch is on top, Lee threaded die body in the press, and 9/16" die inside)…

here is a shot of what was produced from left to right: cast boolit at 0.248, cored sized at 0.235, core inside of 7mm jacket ready to be seated (cores weigh 87gr, which makes a 147gr swaged bullet, might be a little heavy for my 7mm-08, but i may go with it for now):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-core-sizer004_zps57524fcf.jpg

yawn, nothing new right? well, the real winner here is the punch holder I made, you can see it here… it will take 5/16” 1144 ‘Stress Proof” rod and can be turned down to whatever diameter is needed for the punch… need a new punch? I was turning down grade 8 bolts, but that is somewhat of a pain, now I can just turn down a short section of rod to whatever diameter and length I need and lock it into the punch holder (I liked the way it looked black after heat treating and tempering so I decided not to clean it up, the matt black will wear off but I like it for now):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-core-sizer007_zpsfbc428d4.jpg

next up is the core seater… this die is a simple idea, but I have found from the 0.224 project that it is harder to design that make… I will post the drawing in a few days…

customcutter

12-22-2013, 07:38 PM

Hadn't thought of a punch holder. Better than using all of your larger stock up, making punches.

Looks like you got your lathe fixed, IIRC you had some bad bearings or maybe gears? I've been reading a lot of the old "Rifleman" articles and writing notes and making drawings. I've got most of my measurements worked out on the .224 dies except for the lengths of some of the inserts and punches. Hoping to get into the shop this week, for a few hours.

Cane_man

12-22-2013, 09:42 PM

CC still working on the lathe fix and as soon as i get the bearings on my lathe replaced i am moving on the next phase of this project which is to make the core seating die...

here is the sketch for the design i came up with:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/CoreSeater_zpsacdd042f.jpg

as you can see it uses the Lee die body, and two grade 5 bolts and a grade 8 bolt for a punch... i think the standard bolt sizes i have on here will work, but i won't really know until i actually make this thing... hardest parts to make are the 'piston' stop (blue part) and threading the bolt for 3/8 coarse...

Twmaster

12-22-2013, 10:49 PM

That's a pretty interesting diagram there CM. Cutting threads on the inside of that grade 5 bolt may not be as bad as you think. A good quality HSS or carbide tap, loads of tap juice. Slow careful turns with the tap. Cut a little, clear the chips, cut a little, clear the chips.......

Cane_man

12-22-2013, 11:08 PM

ya Tdub, i don't think the 3/8" thread will be a problem, grade 5 bolt isn't too hard... i have cut drilled and tapped 5/8" fine and it wasn't a big deal

Cane_man

12-23-2013, 09:02 PM

got the lathe torn down, got a few snags to work through, but hopefully by the weekend i will be back in action...

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/keyway001_zps28b28d63.jpg

Twmaster

12-24-2013, 12:50 AM

While you have it apart are you going with the tapered roller bearing upgrade?

Cane_man

12-24-2013, 02:09 AM

no, just going with the upgraded Japanese made bearings offered on littlemachineshop.com

Twmaster

12-24-2013, 03:20 AM

My 7x14 has the tapered bearings. It seems to be worthwhile. Although I really have no complaints about the original style bearings in the other 7x I had.

Cane_man

12-30-2013, 09:42 PM

alright, back in business now that the bearing replacement is complete... it was a little more involved that i thought and i broke and replaced a gear in the process but i learned a lot about my lathe that i didnt know before and think i could fix any part of it now if i had to :roll:

so now moving forward it is time to make the core seating die, and when i finished drilling out the 5/8-fine bolt so it could be drilled and tapped to 3/8"-16 i realized this wasn't going to work... so i resized a few things and the changes are noted on revised drawing below, here is what changed:

1) smaller stop punch is now 7/16"-14, before i was planning to use 3/8"... i soon realize this was too small for the eject punch to fit inside so i had to beef up this stop a little... now i need to find a 7/16"-14 tap, and luckily i have a really good nuts/bolts specialty shop in town that has all of this, so i will take a little trip and see them tomorrow :) the drill size for the tap is 23/64" (0.3594) and i have one of those already...

btw, for both stop punches (the 5/8"-fine and the 7/16"-coarse) i am using 2" long grade 5 bolts...

2) eject punch is now 1/4" - this is great news as i wasn't thrilled with having to turn this punch down to 3/16" as planned before... just an off the shelf grade 8 1/4" bolt will be used and all i need to do is trim it to length and clean up the end

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/CoreSeaterv2_zps1396b886.jpg

the core seating die (the green part) is really simple to make, it is just a piece of 9/16" O1 cut to 1-5/8" long and then the ID is lapped to 0.283... the die is like a pass thru die and the entire ID is the same diameter... the core stop punch (the blue part) is a little tricky but not too bad, i will just make it out of O1 as well

if you want to make 30 cal i hope you can see that it would only require some simple upsizing to make it work, the design of all the dies would be the same and the drawing of the 9mm jackets would be easier...

Twmaster

12-31-2013, 12:47 AM

Is the green part a press fit or slip fit to the die body?

Cane_man

12-31-2013, 01:30 AM

drops right into the Lee Die Body, 9/16" diameter anything will slip right in and out

that is what i really like about this method is that if i screw up the die all i need to do is toss the insert because it slips in and out, the rest of the die does not have to be redone...

Twmaster

12-31-2013, 10:53 AM

What keeps that insert from falling out?

Cane_man

12-31-2013, 12:10 PM

the die has a "shelf" reamed on the bottom inside the die that keeps it from falling through (Lee makes the die this way so that the case mouth widening plug will fit inside), something like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/LeeExpanderDieBody_zpsc3de20c0.jpg

the top half is threaded on the inside with 5/8"-fine, just add a bolt on top and it snugs the die in place...

Twmaster

12-31-2013, 12:30 PM

Ah! Easy peasy then!

Cane_man

01-04-2014, 06:58 PM

finished version 1 of the core seating die, just in time for the games today... this is what i came up with, the core sized pretty darn well at 0.2838, but there are a few other problems to deal with before moving on to the pointing die:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-seater-v1003_zpsa75d61eb.jpg

1) the lead is flowing out badly over the mouth... this means the punch diameter is too small, i sized it for 0.248, but it looks like i wasn't even close... i will make a new punch and size it at 0.260 and go from there...

2) the seated core weighs in at 150gr, much too heavy for what i was looking for... just want a simple target/plinking bullet and 130gr-140gr would be fine... also it could be that this core has just a little too much lead for the jacket, and i just need less lead... so i probably need to trim the lead boolits down a little... not really a big deal but it means i will have to make a trimming die for my core cutter, and cutting the cores will add an extra step...

3) you can't see it here in the pic, but the core stop 'plunger' is not long enough, doh! it needs to be just a little longer to fully eject the seated core... it got about 80% out of the die with the eject punch, but not long enough... so i have to remake this part (the blue piece in the drawing) :(

all the bolt sizes for the die worked out really well, so this design is a keeper... i will post the final dimensions of the plunger and eject punch when i finish it up over the next few weeks...

Twmaster

01-04-2014, 08:59 PM

That is terrific progress.

customcutter

01-04-2014, 09:23 PM

Cane, one of the articles I read said to make the core seating punch .002" smaller than the ID of the jacket. I just looked it up from the "notes" that I made on my readings last week.

Cane_man

01-05-2014, 11:58 AM

thanks cc, i forgot about that so that is what i will do

Cane_man

01-13-2014, 07:39 PM

finally made the required adjustments and got it up and running, here is the die at press camming over:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-coresizer-v2005_zps6086c26e.jpg

looks kind of tall but it works really well imo... the base punch is approximately 1.25" long and the nose is 0.253" in diameter, i had to round it slightly and just a little lead flows up the side...

here is the final product with the jacketed core swaged to 0.2835 or so, ready for the point forming die when i finish it:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-coresizer-v2008_zpsb3a4440b.jpg

had to trim the cast boolits so that the cores were 80gr, this required a die be made for the trimmer, you can just see about 1/8" or so of the boolit sticking out ready to be sliced off:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-coresizer-v2001_zps8e0923bd.jpg

now on to the point forming die, the steps will be something like this:

1) make reamers
2) rough out the ogive inside the die (step drill, d-ream, then ream with 2 fluted reamer)
3) make the laps (using FB production bullets)
4) lap the ogive to final

there is more within each step but i will explain as i go along...

gotta make up about 50 seated cores now so that they are ready to test the point forming die when i am at that stage...

customcutter

01-13-2014, 10:28 PM

Progessing well. I've got to get back in the shop, don't know when it will be.

DAVE A

01-14-2014, 06:31 AM

Very nice work I will be watching the point form die progress with a lot of interest
Dave

Cane_man

01-27-2014, 11:40 PM

Lesson learned on punches: make sure you are using high yield strength material.

below is a pic of two punches, the one on the right is heat treated O1 with a yield strength of 50,000 psi, the one on the left is 1144 ‘Stress Proof’ steel with a yield strength of 130,000 psi… I didn’t think this would happen but my stop punch for the core seating die bent! so I had to rethink the material and ended up using 1144… I was hesitant because its hardness is about 30 RC compared to the O1 hardness of 60, as I thought the eject punch would deform the top of the punch (the eject punch is a grade 8 bolt RC hardness of 35), but so far the punch has held up fine…

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-stop-punch004_zps9621349c.jpg

the 1144 stress proof is not very expensive and can be had at mcmaster.com in various size diameters... so I will be using 1144 for all my punches for now on if possible, except for the pointing die eject punch which just holds music wire on the business end… the part that yielded is the ‘blue’ colored punch in the drawing below:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/CoreSeaterv2_zps1396b886.jpg

the 1144 material is really easy to machine and finish, and it does not need to be heat treated… so all punches now will be this material except as noted above…

I started getting into making Venison Jerky, and by far it is the best jerky I have ever tasted! nobody in my house will eat the deer meat (daughters freak out and think I killed bambi), so the best way for me to eat the meat is to make jerky out of it and it is fantastic… here is some jerky I made this weekend ready to be cured in the dehydrator:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-stop-punch001_zps1cc0d7f1.jpg

got the basic Excalibur dehydrator for $100, it can only handle about 3-4 pounds of meet at a time, but it keeps me in snacks for a month or so... after a lot of research here is the jerky recipe I am using:

Liquids - ounces per lb. of venison
Soy Sauce - 2 ounces
Worceteshire Sauce – 2 ounces
Guinnes Stout or any Beer (or clean water) – 2 ounces
Teryaki Sauce (optional) – 2 ounces

Note: use any liquid combination of the above desired to taste, but you need approximately 8 ounces of liquid per lb. of meat. If you want Teryaki jerky use 6 ounces of Teryaki marinade and eliminate the Worcesteshire and beer, if you want the basic smokey/salty jerky use equal amounts of all 4 liquids, if you want a real treat make some beer jerkey and use 6 ounces of Guiness Stout with 1 ounce of Soy and Worcesteshire!

Notes
all measurements are by volume
1 tablespoon = 1/2 ounce
3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon
1 cup = 8 ounces

Misc ingredients - ounces per lb. of venison
Liquid Smoke - 1 ounce
Brown Sugar – 1 ounce
Morton Tender Quick – ½ ounce per lbs. (hard to find, had to get off evilbay)

Spices – all are ½ teaspoon per lbs. unless noted
Onion Powder
Garlic Powder
Ground Black Pepper
Lowrys (or any seasoning salt)
Ground Red Pepper (2 pinches per lbs.)
Tobasco (hot sauce- 2 squirts from the bottle per lbs.)

[1] cut the venison into thin slices no more than 1/8” thick (it helps if the meet is slightly frozen, you can put thawed meet in freezer for 2 hours before slicing)

[2] get out a large bowl and add all the spices together

[3] then add all the liquids and misc ingredients

[4] using a spoon take your time and mix them all together

[5] using a 1 gallon freezer bag add the marinade to the venison and mix it all together in the freezer bag (1 gallon bag holds about 3-4 pounds of venison with the marinade), mix it up real good almost like kneading bread dough

[6] let the jerky marinade sit in the refrigerator overnight (at least 8 hours)

[7] lay paper towels out on a plate and lay the strips of jerky on top, you want to blot the jerky dry of any liquids before placing in the dehydrator

[8] place on the dehydrator trays

[9] at this point you can make pepper jerky or spicy jerky by sprinkling on some course ground pepper or red pepper flakes, patting the top of the jerky to kind of ‘mash’ the spices on to the meat (I really like pepper jerky)

[10] let the jerky cure at 150-160F for 6-7 hours

[11] let the jerky cool and place in baggies for a few days before eating

it will store like this for several months… enjoy

Game on, it's time to start making the pointing die! [smilie=b:

.

supe47

01-28-2014, 01:28 AM

Almost my exact recipe. I heat my wet/dry solution a bit to infuse the flavors before marinating. Good hint about slightly freezing before cutting meat. Makes slicing so much easier. A spoon in the door of an oven set on it's lowest temp works well as a dehydrator. Cover floor of oven to avoid wife's wrath. Oh. and your dies are looking good, also. [smilie=1:

customcutter

01-28-2014, 10:15 PM

Now I'm confused :confused:, I don't know whether to make dies or jerky??? Good thing deer hunting season is over, and I didn't do any. Waiting on spring turkey season, that's my game.

I'm suprised that the 01 punch bent. Did you check it with a file to confirm it is a heat treated one??? Now I've got to re-think my punches. I wonder how 4140PH compares to 1144???

great work Cane!

Cane_man

01-30-2014, 10:09 PM

make both!

the O1 was heat treated, not sure why it failed... mcmaster lists 4140 as having a yield strength of 60,000 psi... the Ted Smith pdf recommends using 1144...

finally sketched out the pointing die, and with any luck i can get started making the reamers this weekend:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PointingDie_zpscf1c3a23.jpg

supe47

01-30-2014, 10:59 PM

Are you planning on some sort of a spring arrangement to keep the ejection pin out of the way? As drawn you'd be forming a point around the ejection pin.

Twmaster

01-31-2014, 02:49 AM

CM, are you going to make a spoon type cutter, D cutter or fluted cutter? Standing by for the next exciting installment of your saga.

Cane_man

01-31-2014, 11:18 AM

Are you planning on some sort of a spring arrangement to keep the ejection pin out of the way? As drawn you'd be forming a point around the ejection pin.

supe, i lift the eject punch up so the wire is out of the way and i have a brass pin that holds it in place while the point is being formed, then pull out the brass pin and eject the bullet... this way the point doesn't form around the wire as you mention... i did not show this brass pin in the drawing, but it is about 3/16" diameter and about 1" long and fits through the head of the large stop punch bolt (red on the drawing) on top where i drill a hole through the side of it... i'll show a pic eventually when it is all done... second thought, i will put up a pic of my .224 pointing die to show it... this weekend

rasto

01-31-2014, 11:20 AM

What hollow point diameter are you going to make? What is the smallest one what are you able to do?

Cane_man

01-31-2014, 11:23 AM

Tdub, making a d-reamer (spoon) and a two fluted reamer... i found that the d-reamer is really good at hogging out the rough profile and taking out the steps after step drilling, and the 2 fluted reamer was needed to get a good semi-finished profile ready for lapping...

Cane_man

01-31-2014, 11:27 AM

What hollow point diameter are you going to make? What is the smallest one what are you able to do?

not sure i understand the question, but i have made a set of swaging dies for 0.224 55gr 6S 0.047 meplat... this particular swage die set in this thread is for 7mm 140gr 6S 0.0625 meplat... both are flat based and i suppose you could consider them hollow point or open point

Cane_man

01-31-2014, 04:54 PM

here is the eject punch with the brass pin holding it up, this is for my .224 die

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-pointing-die-pin002_zps70f8192d.jpg

garandsrus

01-31-2014, 06:25 PM

A spring is a whole lot easier....

Cane_man

02-01-2014, 12:31 PM

pin is easy to slide in and out and doesn't wear out

rasto

02-01-2014, 12:50 PM

Yes I meant meplat. Any picture of finished bullets?

Cane_man

02-01-2014, 12:53 PM

the two bullets in the center: left is the .224 bullet swaged with my homemade dies, right is the Burger production bullet i was trying to copy:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final3008_zps88852217.jpg

this was my first batch with the new dies, but with a little more care on using the right jackets and a better technique with point forming with the dies/press would greatly reduce the wrinkled and folded tips, then use a meplat trimmer to square the tips and it is very very close to the production bullets... these bullets shot MOA at 100 yards

rasto

02-01-2014, 01:34 PM

Great looking bullets. I have a problem with big meplat due to the Danr dies. The ejecting punch is so big that I am unable to have meplat like you :-(

According your picture the ejector of swagged eject the whole OD O1 part?

Cane_man

02-02-2014, 12:19 PM

not sure i understand the question, but only the wire is ejecting the swaged bullet... the punch just supports the wire... the large bolt is drilled out to support the punch (which i did not show on the drawing)... the drawings are just conceptual and i have left out a lot of dimensions, etc.

i understand about the wide meplat, its not easy to make a pointing die with a small meplat because of the ejection wire problem... larger the meplat the easier it is to eject from the die

rasto

02-02-2014, 01:40 PM

I see. When I was trying to eject the bullet from the die with smaller then supported punch. The punch penetrated the lead and get stuck on the ejection pin completely :-(
Nice precise work done.

Cane_man

03-08-2014, 11:01 AM

still working on this project... had a few sidetrack issues [1] got a new lathe, [2] the new lathe makes it possible to make a radius attachment to the tool post:

here is my 1945 Logan 210 10x24, I have been learning how to use it, adjust the belt, acquire all the wrenches/screw drivers etc. needed, added a qctp, add leveling pads, etc. and now i have decided to replace the existing 1/2hp single phase motor with a 1hp 3 phase motor attached to a VFD:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/Logan-in-place_zps72447588.jpg

Honorstick and Customcutter have shown me the way for making a radius attachment for the tool post, i am in the process of making this now which will make it much easier to make accurate laps and reamers (more repeatable) and it will look something like this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78442&d=1375814238

not sure how long this will take, but i will have a week or so of somewhat free time in the middle of April, in the mean time i have ordered the motor and phase converter/vfd and continue to fine tune the lathe

at present the following have been completed for this project:
-draw die system to draw 9mm range pickups to 7mm/30cal jackets
-lead core sizing dies
-core seating dies

right now i am at the stage of making the point forming die, the most difficult and time consuming part of this project

any of you guys thinking about making your own dies and saving up for a mini lathe imo just save up a few more hundred and you can find a used 'old iron' lathe (South Bend, Logan, Atlas, etc.) and get a much higher quality machine that won't limit you like the 7x12 CML will... look in Craigslist and be patient and a quality older lathe in decent condition will turn up in the $500-$1000 range, i see the mini lathes are in the $400-$700 range now and for the same money or just a little more you can do much better

Twmaster

03-08-2014, 12:29 PM

any of you guys thinking about making your own dies and saving up for a mini lathe imo just save up a few more hundred and you can find a used 'old iron' lathe (South Bend, Logan, Atlas, etc.) and get a much higher quality machine that won't limit you like the 7x12 CML will... look in Craigslist and be patient and a quality older lathe in decent condition will turn up in the $500-$1000 range, i see the mini lathes are in the $400-$700 range now and for the same money or just a little more you can do much better

And that is the conclusion nearly every mini-lathe owner comes to. It's also the conclusion nearly 100% of prospective mini-lathe owner's ignore.

Nice old Logan you've got there.

Sitzme

03-12-2014, 09:54 AM

And that is the conclusion nearly every mini-lathe owner comes to. It's also the conclusion nearly 100% of prospective mini-lathe owner's ignore.

Nice old Logan you've got there.

I too upgraded to an old SB heavy 10 from a HF 7x10. It is like night and day.

Keep in mind that when steel is heat treated the all the properties change, not just the hardness. Strength usually goes up but only to a point and it will vary greatly depending on the alloy. It would be best to look at a graph to find the strength at the hardness desired. Also with some you will have surface hardness and with others, through hardness. You may be aware of these things but I am bringing it up for those who might be looking in to building their own also.

Having said that the old rules of thumb are generally good so if you can find out what a successful builder is using, that might be a good choice. They have done the research to find material that machines well and has the mechanical properties required.

Cane_man

04-10-2014, 08:42 PM

finally finished installing a new motor and a vfd on my lathe,

[1] new 1hp 3 phase 220v motor (upgraded from 1/2hp),
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/vfd-1001_zpsa6194e51.jpg

[2] vfd attached in a box on the end of the lathe, converts 120v single phase to 220v 3 phase to the motor and allows variable speed control of the lathe,
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/vfd-1006_zpsad5eb4a6.jpg

[3] vfd remote controls, on/off switch for vfd, used the existing drum switch for lathe direction, a pot to control speed, and a red mushroom emergency stop switch on the end
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/vfd-1008_zpscf202b09.jpg

going to have some time this week to try and finish the radial attachment to the cross-slide to cut ogives...

Cane_man

04-17-2014, 02:18 PM

alright i finally got the radial attachment to the cross-slide finished, or about 95% done, just have to clean it up make some adjustments, but overall i am pretty satisfied with how it turned out:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/cross-slide-radius-attachment001_zpsbdc1ee5b.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/cross-slide-radius-attachment002_zpsde878f2d.jpg

it's a little rough looking, but i had a heck of a time with the elevation of the tool bit... the cut above was just proof of concept on some 5/16" W1 i had laying around and the ogive measured about 4S for this size and that is why it looks stubby... this radial attachment should make is easy now to make repeatable reamer and lap blanks, much easier than the method i was using before...

next step: make several reamer and lap blanks so the d-reamer, 2 fluted reamer, and laps can be made...

i know this project is going slowly, but i dont have much time right now so it will be hit or miss until July...

(the tape on the chuck is for my $12 chicom tachometer!)

teddyblu

04-17-2014, 07:10 PM

Glad to see you posting again . The radius cutter looks great and of quality. I will be following your 30 cal die making. My die making has slowed down till my right arm recovers form severe swelling from a lump removal. Keep the fine work. I enjoy the mechanics of making dies more than the swaging itself.

Cane_man

04-30-2014, 08:30 PM

got the radial attachment dialed in, really easy to use and i am satisfied with the results, here is 0.278 blank with a 6S ogive cut:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4017_zps28516cda.jpg

got my blanks all turned to the correct diameter, ready for the ogive to be cut on them... O1 for reamers and Brass for laps:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4016_zps093402d7.jpg

learned that a more blunt cutting tool works better than a more pointy cutter... the gold cutter on the left worked much better than the carbide insert on the right as the point would dig into the material and "catch" cutting deeper than required...

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4023_zpsbd37cb01.jpg

next step is to make a d-reamer and a 2-fluted reamer so the pointing die can be cut!!! it's starting to get serious :veryconfu

Twmaster

05-10-2014, 07:46 PM

As you've found out a radiused tip is important in some types of cutting.

I've had good service from both those brazed carbide and insert type cutters. You can get inserts with rounder radii tips. Deciphering the part codes can be interesting though!

Although I'd use a different shaped insert like the CNMG and CNMA style of cutters.

Cane_man

05-11-2014, 11:17 AM

using an end mill to cut flutes on a reamer blank, had to make a tool holder from some 1/2" square aluminum and add some set screws:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/2014-05-2flutereamer_zps548f8dcf.jpg

here is s d-reamer ready for the relief to be filed and the cutting edge rough honed, all before heat treating, main relief near tip was ground with the bench grinder:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/2014-05-dreamer_zps6e3aa665.jpg

need to finish filing relief on these reamers, then heat treat, and then final hone with the diamond hones and the pointing die will be ready to be step drilled and reamed...

bangerjim

05-11-2014, 01:00 PM

Radiused carbide insert cutters are all I use, except a couple for 90 degree shouldering cuts. Much smoother and a nice finish all around. Can chatter a higher speeds depending on the feed and material. That is where your VFD will come in handy!

I use my 360 round circle inserts a lot and for final cuts I run my lathe at less than 1RPS. Nice smooth chatter-free finishes.

I do not make any gun stuff but the principals of machining carry thru. I make clocks and scientific instrument reproductions.

banger

Twmaster

05-11-2014, 02:17 PM

Is it just me or does it look like you took off more than 49% of the material in the last photo?

Cane_man

05-11-2014, 07:32 PM

optical illusion!

it sure looks like i got carried away with it, but it is split right down the point... perhaps it looks that way because the blank is 0.3125 and the reamer is 0.276

dont have to be real precise with the d-reamer as it will only be used to take out the steps from step drilling and rough out the ogive profile... but the 2-fluted reamer needs to be be t*ts dead on, or close enough as i will lap out the final 0.004

bangerjim

05-12-2014, 03:08 PM

This is a version of a Holdridge radius cutter that fits in my quick-change tool posts of my various lathes.

It pivots back I forth and can cut balls from <1/4" to as large as 2" in diameter. I use this a lot when making handles and scientific instruments!

104673

The long thing is the handle that attaches to the shaft sticking out the top.

Gives a perfect surface on a sphere. This has cut many many spheres, round ends, and other otherwise impossible lathe items!

Next thing, I will remove all the black lacquer and ES gun powder coat it with matte black.

banger

Cane_man

05-12-2014, 08:40 PM

had some time to think through all the layout for the pointing die and sketch it up, which includes step drilling detail:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PointingDieStepDrillLayout_zps02ca0821.jpg

now time to cut the die body, face the ends, center drill, then start step drilling and drill thru the eject punch hole... then it will be time to d-ream and finish ream... then start the lapping marathon :veryconfu if.... if, i dont snap a reamer [smilie=b: ... if the reamer snaps then its just time to :2 drunk buddies: for a while to get over it!

note: i hope you can see that this would be very easy to upscale if you were making 30 cal dies

Cane_man

05-13-2014, 10:52 PM

kind of hard to see, but the die blank has been prepped and step drilled, all ready to d-ream and then finish ream (the hole-thru is 1/16", looks much bigger than it really is):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/StepDrill_zpsb1d5a0b0.jpg

probably won't get to it until a few weeks as i had some issues to take care of before i can d-ream and then finish ream this pointing die...

Cane_man

05-15-2014, 10:22 AM

Had some unexpected time to sneak in the shop last night to see if I could ream out this pointing die… the d-reamer snapped like a toothpick about 10s into the job! I was really ticked, so I thought I would just chuck the 2-fluted reamer in the tail stock to see if it would do the job and if snapped then so be it… the 2-fluted reamer worked like a champ, I was able to use the back gears on my Logan and go really slow, and I also used some Kool Mist 77 coolant in a water spray bottle, and was really pleased with the results (you can barely see a black line on the end of the reamer, that was the final reaming depth of 1.375"):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4042_zps01f50e2f.jpg

Here is the pointing die all reamed out and ready for lapping:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4046_zps9f2f9eaa.jpg

This was about the 10th time I have attempted to ream out a pointing die, and the first time on this project, and it was by far the most successful, here is what I thought made the difference:

1) lathe – having a much larger and heavier lathe made a real difference, so much more control, no chatter, and being able to ream at 50 rpm or so with power was awesome… if you are on the fence on whether to buy/use a CML 7x10-12, just save a few more hundred and buy an old iron lathe, you wont regret it!

2) coolant – this is the first time I have used coolant for reaming, I used “Kool Mist Formula 77”, mix 1 ounce in a quart of water, apply with a water spray bottle, this stuff is awesome! I can get a fine stream and flush out the part while reaming and when the reamer is out of the die… really like this stuff, i used some cutting oil on the reamer as well and not sure if it made any difference...

Honing the reamers: for finish honing the reamers to almost a razors edge these diamond laps called ez lap are awesome! A three pack like this can be had on evilbay for about $15:

http://www.knivesplus.com/media/EZ-LPAK.jpg

Now it is on to lapping, and I don’t expect any problems here… right now the die is around 0.278” at the shank, will lap to 0.281 (I will know this when the 0.279 test probe fits) then heat treat and temper, then lap out to final at around 0.2838 or so, wont get to this for a few weeks! hardest part of the pointing die is finished, and i have my foot on its throat now!!! making the eject punch is a little bit of a pain, i will detail that as i get to it...

squished

05-17-2014, 08:13 AM

here is what I thought made the difference:

1) lathe – having a much larger and heavier lathe made a real difference, so much more control, no chatter, and being able to ream at 50 rpm or so with power was awesome… if you are on the fence on whether to buy/use a CML 7x10-12, just save a few more hundred and buy an old iron lathe, you wont regret it!

As someone who is new to machining, lathes and swaging but has a CML, I gotta totally agree! I've owned 2 partially complete Craftsman/Dunlap mini lathes from the 1950's, an Atlas Franken-lathe built from miscellaneous parts that's seen better days and a Grizzly CML.

I'm ready to look for lathe #5 and it'll be American old iron. The CML that I have is too underpowered for threading the 7/8-14 needed for dies and results in lots of ruined parts and frustration. Of course, the frustration could be due to the operator :)

I've learned a bit about lathe in the process though and can hopefully pick a more complete, better functioning lathe than the Atlas I had before.

Anyway, keep up the posts Cane-man. They're inspiring.

bangerjim

05-17-2014, 11:29 AM

As someone who is new to machining, lathes and swaging but has a CML, I gotta totally agree! I've owned 2 partially complete Craftsman/Dunlap mini lathes from the 1950's, an Atlas Franken-lathe built from miscellaneous parts that's seen better days and a Grizzly CML.

I'm ready to look for lathe #5 and it'll be American old iron. The CML that I have is too underpowered for threading the 7/8-14 needed for dies and results in lots of ruined parts and frustration. Of course, the frustration could be due to the operator :)

I've learned a bit about lathe in the process though and can hopefully pick a more complete, better functioning lathe than the Atlas I had before.

Anyway, keep up the posts Cane-man. They're inspiring.

Your problem with threading is not lack of power!!!!! I use absolutely NO power when cutting threads. I use a manual handle I made that locks into the spindle that I turn the stock by hand with s-l-o-w-l-y to get perfect control of threads. I have a full 1HP VFD drive on my SB quick-change (down to <1RPS at full power) but do not use it for threading. Hand power is much better and more precise.

7/8-14 is nothing for a lathe. I cut all manner of threads, even as large as 3.5" for custom thread work for antique surveying instruments.

Try it again with good old elbow grease!

I have been making "stuff" on lathes and mills for over 40 years. It is fun! Size matters, but expertise matters MORE. Keep on making chips....you will get there!

banger

squished

05-17-2014, 05:06 PM

Thanks, bangerjim!

I believe you. It could certainly be operator error or lack of patience on my part. Part of being a lathe newbie is expectations that things will just work.

I'll keep at it.

midnight

05-17-2014, 07:08 PM

bangerjim

05-17-2014, 08:54 PM

I have use 5C's (64th set) for everything in my big lathe. In my small precision lathe I use 3C's (again 64th's) since it's headstock AND tailstock are bored and made for 3C.

If you have a Buck-style 5C chuck coming, that is all you need. Zeroing it in to low run-out will be fun but can be done with a little patience. I took hardened reversible top jaw 6" 4 jaw and 8" standard 3 jaw (both scroll chucks) units and modified them for "zero-set" so now I get better tolerances with them than my 5C chuck! Can you say 0.0002 runout on a 3 or 4 jawed chuck? Really nice. But 5C's are still used a lot for various thing in the lathes and mills.

I also have the main sizes of square and hex 3C's as I work with that bar stock a lot in the work I do.

Good find on the lathe. As I have always said about REAL lathes, they come in two sizes: good old big uns and big old good uns!

bangerjim

Cane_man

05-18-2014, 09:59 PM

Caneman: I just started reading this thread and got all excited. Last Monday a 1945 10x24 Logan followed me home. Got three jaw and four jaw chucks, quick change tool post, rocker tool post with six tool holders, 11 MT3 collets & drawbar for the MT3 spindle nose, dead centers & some other stuff. Got a 5C collet chuck on the way. Reading this thread lets me realize what can be done with this amazing machine. Gone are the days of using my milling machine as a lathe. If you can, give me your thoughts on using the MT3 collets on work up to 3/4in (max for MT3 collets) and the 5C chuck for anything larger. Maybe I should use the 5C for everything round.

Bob

congrats on the Logan, you will not regret it! i absolutely love my 1945 Logan 210, sounds like you may have got a similar model? you must have gotten a really good deal considering all that came with the lathe... i just acquired a quick change gear box and will be adding it to my lathe this summer when i get some extra time

My lathe did not come with the collet draw bar so i have not been able to use collets with it yet, so i dont have any opinion on using the MT3 collets...

glad you are excited about the thread, that was the purpose of documenting this work so that others would start doing it as well and we could share information...

Cane_man

05-18-2014, 10:03 PM

Thanks, bangerjim!

I believe you. It could certainly be operator error or lack of patience on my part. Part of being a lathe newbie is expectations that things will just work.

I'll keep at it.

squish, i tried threading the 7/8-14 on my CML, biggest problem I had was rigidity and the tool post flexing... seems like it would start to feed alright, but at some point it would flex and dig into the part and bind the lathe up! got tired of that real fast, but have not tried threading yet on my 10x24, probably get to it this summer... let me know when you get your new old iron lathe, just love to see pics of these old timers...

Twmaster

05-20-2014, 02:47 PM

I thread 3/4-16 on my CML all the time. I also use a hand crank. So much better than trying to get that little motor to do the right thing.

Two things to keep in mind on the tooling while thread cutting on a CML, well, three actually.

Keep the compound cranked as far back over the pivot point of the crossslide/compound axis as you can. Do not over extend the tool out of the tool post. Keep it in as tight as is practical. Also, use larger tooling. Instead of 1/4" shank, go with 5/16" or 3/8th shanks.

Here's a photo of the hand crank I made. It slips into the outboard end of the spindle. Tighten the drawbar and it's tight.

105478

bangerjim

05-20-2014, 05:06 PM

Twmaster is correct...........try to eliminate ANY large tooling overhangs when doing ANY turning! Close and tight is what you are after, even on big heavy solid lathes. Nice thing about the handle and no-power approach is you can make many cuts that will chatter with power feed and will NOT chatter with handle feed. I find when doing radius cuts with 1/4 to 5/8" radius carbide cutters, the final cuts I do by hand and there is NO chatter....just perfect shiny surfaces!

Sometimes you have to have tool overhang to get the job done...........just take it easy and use light cuts. Don't try for 0.1 hogging cuts!

Keep makin' those chips! ;)

banger

Cane_man

05-20-2014, 09:20 PM

Let the lapping begin!!!! :awesome:

all the different grits sizes of lapping compounds ready to go, from 100 to 8,000 grit:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4049_zps75a52311.jpg

the tool holder i made for the reamers is also used to hold the brass laps, just load a little compound on the lap and it is good to go:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4051_zpse6e75609.jpg

...and get to lapping! i try to insert the lap inside the die about 1/3 of the way in and hold for several seconds, insert another 1/3 and hold, and finally all the way and hold... my little 7x12 CML is perfect for lapping as it rotates at 2000 rpm and i do no want to subject my precious Logan lathe to this mess!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4052_zpsb6f3d012.jpg

do this for about 2 minutes, then pull the lap out wipe it off, recharge with lapping compound and repeat:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4055_zpsa6ab7308.jpg

the lap fits snugly inside he die at first, then after a while it will start to feel loose in there, and that is the time to use the next largest size lap... i have 4 sizes of laps: 0.270, 0.275, 0.278. and 0.280... i will coarse lap to about 0.282 then heat treat and have another 0.002 or so to fine lap and work out any warpage or surface anomalies generated during heat treating... the entire lapping process takes 4 or 5 hours, particularly the last 0.001 where i will be testing out seated cores and measuring as i go along to determine when i am finished...

plus1hdcp

05-20-2014, 11:41 PM

Thanks for the pictures as they provide a great insight to where you are at in the process for a aspiring machinist. This thread has taught me a lot.

Cane_man

05-26-2014, 12:53 PM

alright, here is the latest progress, i started rough lapping and when i could insert the 0.279 probe I decided to heat treat the pointing die, all well so far... then after tempering i start lapping again and i wanted to see where the die was at in terms of bullet OD, so i decided to put a seated core up there even though i do not have the eject punch started let alone finished yet! kind of like a kid on Christmas morning because you want to see where the die is at and what the bullet looks like, well here is the progress so far, i could not even get the bullet up the die all the way and i broke the make shift punch i was using and the bullet got stuck in the die!

note: that is not the final meplat size

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4059_zps5e26ac3e.jpg

so as you can see there is much more lapping to do in order to get to about 0.2838-0.2842 or so! you can see that the bullet only got about halfway up the ogive as the meplat should be the same size as that wire sticking out! you can also see the screw in the base of the bullet that i used to get the stuck bullet out... if you get into this game of die making you better learn how to remove stuck bullets from the pointing die... my method is to chuck the die in the lathe, drill out the shank of the bullet to accept some type of screw, then put the die back in the press and clamp some pliars on the screw and tap the pliars with a hammer and the stuck case comes out:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4060_zps90aa04f9.jpg

looks like i have another 0.0025 to lap out, probably a few hours work using 5000 and 8000 grit, back to work! [smilie=b:

Cane_man

05-27-2014, 06:34 PM

getting closer, this is after about 45' of lapping, 0.2826:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4062_zps39a2e2c2.jpg

this is also after another 45' of lapping, ogive looks encouraging, 0.2833:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4064_zps53170ae1.jpg

probably another 45' or so with 8,000 diamond paste and i will be real close, would like to hit 0.2842 and then size them down in a push through sizer to 0.2839 to allow for some springback...

i am having eject problems with this 4/64 (0.0625) punch and may have to step it up to a 6/64 (0.09375) punch... got some 3/32 piano wire ordered (ASTM 228) and I will have to make a new punch for it... the corbins website recommends 3/32 for 7mm so i may have to go this route...

Cane_man

05-30-2014, 05:43 PM

real close now!!!

only a few 0.0001 away from finishing... still having eject problems but i have not used the larger diameter music wire yet, and it gave me a chance to incorporate a spring in the eject punch as suggested earlier in this thread, i will update the drawing once i get finished with this pointing die... really liking this 6S ogive, OAL length is approximately 1.1", and the weight varies bewteen 138gr ~ 140gr, can't wait to shoot them this summer:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4066_zps76a84164.jpg

Cane_man

05-31-2014, 01:28 PM

i am claiming victory, finally, after almost 9 months! here is the first decent one to come out with the ejection punch, its a little rough and will get cleaned up with the final sizer die and some vibratory tumbling with ceramic media, but i think they might have half a chance of being decent practice rounds and maybe achieve MOA at 100 yards... remember, this bullet started life as a 9mm range pickup case!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4069_zps1e040706.jpg

all the heavy lifting is done, just need to do the cleanup items for this project: finalize eject punch for pointing die, sizer die, and possibly a meplat trimmer

hardcase54

05-31-2014, 07:21 PM

Looks good, have been following this thread from the start. Good on you Cane Man

Twmaster

05-31-2014, 07:24 PM

That's not a hateful looking pill there Cane-Man. Now to see how they shoot.

If there was one (or more) steps you'd change in making these what would you change?

plus1hdcp

05-31-2014, 07:40 PM

Did you go with the larger wire for the ejector? Congrats on getting the die to eject and we expect a range report soon.

Cane_man

06-01-2014, 01:48 AM

tdub - i would not waste time making a d-reamer, using my new heavier lathe it was sufficienct to step drill and then ream with the 2-flute reamer for the pointing die, also i think i need to remove the primers from the cases before drawing as the primers have a tendency to separate off the case when fired (at least that has been my experience with shooting 10mm swaged bullets)...

plus - thanks! have not used the 3/32 wire yet on the eject punch, this one was pushed out with the 1/16 but i had to pull it off the eject wire... it is clear to me that the 1/16" wire wont work, it is just too weak... i will post a pic of the new drawing for the eject punch once i get the 3/32 carbide bit next week to drill out the die and make the new punch... i have a new simpler design using a spring and just stock 1/4" 1144

wont be able to make it to the range for several weeks, might even be July before I get there!

Cane_man

06-08-2014, 10:52 AM

i finally got the pointing die lapped out to final dimensions like i wanted:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4075_zps858702ea.jpg

then i made a sizing die, this is real simple push thru die and the stop punch made for core sizing is used, but a new push thru punch had to be made... it is so simple i am not posting a drawing for it... i will get a detail drawing and pic of the new eject punch for the pointing die with the spring, but it will be later...

one tool that really made a difference with making this sizing dies is the use of a commercial brass barrel lap, made by Acro Lap, cost is about $10 for the brass barrel and the holder/adjuster, the brass barrels are replaceable for about $3 a piece:

http://www.newmantools.com/lapping/index003014.jpg

very simple to use, twist the screw on the end to increase the diameter of the lap, load it up and you are good to go, got the final bullet sizer to 0.2838:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4080_zpsf83e1b1b.jpg

here is the final sized bullet, and you can see the two different eject wires i used here, the 3/32 (0.09375) on the left and the 1/16 (0.0625) on the right, the larger wire made a big difference for ejecting the bullet:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4079_zpse77399a3.jpg

well, the bullet came out OK, but not what i really wanted so i decided i wanted to to make a new 8S pointing die with the 5/64" meplat (0.078125 and in the middle of the two sizes already tried) and i think that will give a longer look for the ogive and a better meplat, so that is what i am working on now...

i made the new 8S brass laps (i theorized that the 6S reamer would be OK since I am lapping out approximately 0.005 and the laps would form the new ogive just fine), have the die reamed out and heat treated, and now i am completing the final lapping and may be done in a few days

DAVE A

06-08-2014, 03:36 PM

Nice work
Is there any particular reason for making the bullets oversize and then sizing down ?

Cane_man

06-09-2014, 11:23 AM

garandsrus

06-09-2014, 12:47 PM

I like the idea of running the bullet thru the sizer 3 or 4 times at the end just as a precaution that I did not make any mistakes, and it gives me peace of mind that the bullet is sized properly before I run it down the barrel...

Nice job on the pointing die! How could a bullet be too large coming out of the die? Corbin doesn't resize bullets after pointing and I don't see any reason to unless you want to change them to a smaller caliber.

John

Cane_man

06-09-2014, 12:57 PM

Nice job on the pointing die! How could a bullet be too large coming out of the die? Corbin doesn't resize bullets after pointing and I don't see any reason to unless you want to change them to a smaller caliber.

John

Thank you.

Remember, I am oversizing the pointing die just a little as part of my design... The bullet will be the same diameter as the die, so if the die is lapped to 0.2841 then the bullet will come out that way, but because of imprecision in homemade dies there will be some out of roundness, and so the sizer takes care of this really well and also gives me peace of mind that the final OD is just right...

the pros who make dies for a living don't worry about this, but for the hobbyist like me I don't like the idea of making a mistake and having a KABOOM, so I have some redundancies built in to account for any mistakes I may make along the way...

DAVE A

06-09-2014, 02:30 PM

I completely understand your caution, after all you would only make that mistake once
Out of curiosity I have just tested some of my own bullets on a run out gauge and was wondering if it would be worth doing the same with yours
by the way my dies are Corbins and yes the bullets are round.

Cane_man

06-09-2014, 08:43 PM

^^^ thanks for the offer, let me see how they end up when i am all done and i may take you up on that offer, or maybe i will just get my own run out gauge :)

Cane_man

06-09-2014, 08:44 PM

here is the revised point forming die, here it is all assembled in the press with the eject punch/wire sitting on top of the spring:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4085_zpscbed6013.jpg

here is the disassembled view, if you will, showing the spring and the eject punch/wire:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4083_zps3add3bed.jpg

this is the revised drawing (not to scale):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PointingDieRev1_zps8aeb714a.jpg

here are some of the details:

1) punch holding the wire: 1/4" 1144 "Stress Proof" steel, McMaster has gobs of it... drill it out all the way through with the same size as your eject wire, the wire is secured at the top with the two set screws... you need to drill out the 5/8" bolt (stop punch) to about 0.260 so the spring will fit inside

2) eject wire, whatever you get make sure it is ASTM 228 spec, goes by different names like 'music wire' or 'piano wire", etc. "KS" brand is what i have used and it is the correct type

3) spring - nothing special here but it has to be long enough to hold up the punch so that the eject wire is not formed around the meplat when you push the seated core up there

edit: the drawing makes it look like the punch fits inside the spring, when actually it sits on top of the spring and compresses it!

great suggestion earlier in this thread to use the spring, i thought it might not hold up but it is easy to replace, as is the eject wire... i am sure i left something out, let me know of you have any questions

Cane_man

06-10-2014, 08:35 PM

been lapping out this 8S ogive and I am gettting close, i like this bullet much better than the 6S... but will my rifle like it better?!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/DSCN4089_zps0b83c9ad.jpg

my 5/64 music wire comes in tomorrow so i don't know if the die will eject yet with that wire... if it wont i will have to drill out the eject hole with a carbide bit so it will take the 3/32 wire which i know works as eject wire...

i learned a few hard won lessons on lapping the pointing die:

1) lapping the top 1/2 of the ogive - seems like this is the hardest part to lap to a mirror finish, so what i found i could do is take one of those bamboo bbq skewers and put a wad of 0000 steel wool on it, push it inside so it would form the ogive shape... then take it out and load it with lapping compound on the tip only and it polished all the way to the top of the ogive very well

2) don't jam the brass lap up to the eject hole! if you push into that hold it will mushroom the tip of the bullet and won't be square... just barely push the lap to the top of the die and try not to put pressure up into the tip

Cane_man

06-13-2014, 05:29 PM

edit: add another hard won lesson on lapping,

3) lap square, meaning push the lap in along the axis of rotation and do not cant up/down/sideways in any way!!! i ruined that promising looking bullet by being careless in lapping out the final 0.007, and now starting over !!!!

i think God invented point die making to humble those foolish enough to engage in this endeavor :holysheep

Twmaster

06-13-2014, 08:13 PM

So far looking great CM.

FWest

07-24-2014, 08:05 AM

Great information in this thread. Guess I could be considered foolish. Thanks Cane, and all who posted.

Cane_man

08-03-2014, 09:11 PM

finally got the 8S Ogive pointing die done, and made a fist batch of 25 bullets... these are 7mm 135gr, the production bullet I ended up chasing is on the left is 145 gr, and the swaged is on the right... hopefully get to go to the range on Friday, and I think these have a halfway decent chance of grouping up, i chronied a plinking load of 32gr of Varget that averaged 2100 fps out of my Tikka 7mm-08 CA Mule deer slayer:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/firstbatch_zps09629901.jpg

aaronraad

08-04-2014, 08:15 AM

Nice work Cane man, hope they work well for you!

newcastter

08-04-2014, 09:44 AM

Very nice Cane man. Keep up the good work.

Prospector Howard

08-04-2014, 10:06 AM

Yep, good work. They look as good as anything I've seen here. Don't wear yourself out reducing those 9mm cases down to 7mm size, HA!

Cane_man

08-04-2014, 10:48 AM

I found that a 7mm er32 collet and a bastard file make a great bottom rounding die and meplat trimmer!!!

Cane_man

08-04-2014, 11:54 AM

Yep, good work. They look as good as anything I've seen here. Don't wear yourself out reducing those 9mm cases down to 7mm size, HA!

LOL!!! yes, it is quite a chore to perform 6 draws and 3 anneals on a batch of 125 cases to take them from 9mm 0.6" long to 7mm 1.1" long, but loved every minute of it!

nhrifle

08-04-2014, 12:18 PM

Those look great! Be sure to post a target when you can.

I found the steel wool lapping like you do to work quite well. I made a mandrel that goes in the tail stock of my lathe so it goes in squarely. I run a bit of steel wool lubed with cutting oil into the die so it gets the shape of the cavity, retract and turn off the lathe. Load the steel wool with JB Bore Paste and a few more drops of cutting oil, turn on the lathe and start lapping. And that's the point I have to be patient!

Twmaster

08-04-2014, 04:05 PM

I found that a 7mm er32 collet and a bastard file make a great bottom rounding die and meplat trimmer!!!

I coulda told ya that! ER collets are awesome.

And speaking of awesome, those boolits look great!

aaronraad

08-04-2014, 07:27 PM

Cane_man

08-04-2014, 08:50 PM

hmmmmmmmm... you might be on to something!

aaronraad

08-05-2014, 01:47 AM

Not uncommon especially with the smaller calibres if you talk to a few commercial swaging die makers.

Actually I think there is .257 cal carbide die about at the moment that started out as a .243 cal die. Too short for my purposes from the description I was given and too expensive for me to just add to the collection.

Similar to what happens with all those under-weight cores you make during your 175gr 30cal production run...and you wonder how they came up with the 168gr 30 cal target projectile; years of R&D in the ballistics lab or did some guy on the factory floor just walk over to the big pile of cores and suggest bleeding them off again instead of re-melting them????

Don't get me started about jacket lengths and land/groove diameters...

Cane_man

08-08-2014, 02:46 PM

Range Report for the 135gr 8S 7mm Home-swage...

As you can see I reached my goal of MOA that I set out to do from the very first post in this long thread, I was shocked they actually did this! This was the first 3 shot group I did, and could not improve on it...

The bullet dropped almost 5" at 100 yads, as you can see my point of aim and where they grouped... the load was 32.8gr of Varget for 135gr 7mm... they chronied at 2100 fps, as I normally shoot this round at 2600 fps, I wanted to load them down some for testing purposes, maybe now I will push them a bit to see what they can do, but happy with this... this group was shot from a rifle that can shoot sub 1/2 MOA groups... I was surprised at how much drop there was

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7mm-MOA_zpsc04c4c42.jpg

Only thing better would be to harvest a deer with this bullet... we'll see what happens when the opener arrives next month!

Thanks to all of you that helped me along the way, I could not have done it without your suggestions and assistance :drinks:

Prospector Howard

08-09-2014, 12:00 AM

Looking good! I had a feeling you'd get some good groups right out of the gate. I need to get my hands on some Varget for my 68 gr .223 bullets. I haven't seen any of that powder locally in awhile. It'll be interesting to see how your new bullets shoot when you kick up the speed to hunting level. Keep us posted.

BT Sniper

08-09-2014, 01:22 AM

Nice work and good shooting. You must have trimmed the meplats! Looks great! I am certain your bullets will do just as well or better then your factory loads. I would not worry yet where they hit the paper, you can always adjust for that later. I am certain you will be able to achieve your full power loads and possibly that .5 MOA mark too. With my 176 grain bullets made from the 5.7 brass shot from a 300WM I was able to get 100fps faster (possibly something about a brass jacketed bullet having less friction/drag in the barrel?) then the Nosler 180 grain bullets and accuracy was under 1/4" too!

oh.... and hunting with these bullets!!! I have taken two mule deer here in Oregon with them. They open quick yet the solid brass base keeps on driving threw. I did quite a bit of testing with these bullets against premium commercial bullets. They penetrated just as far but didn't quite retain as much weight as some of the better bullets now days, the poor mule deer didn't know the difference though. I say load them up to their full potential and shoot with confidence!

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

p.s. how about a pic of the loaded round? I bet it looks pretty darn cool!

Twmaster

08-09-2014, 06:05 PM

Nice shooting CM. I'm with Brian on the suggestion to load them up nice and hard. You'll prolly like what you see.

Awesome job. All that hard work paid off.

squished

08-10-2014, 05:11 PM

Nice work! Just curious, how is the tool steel insert kept inside the case expander? Friction or is it somehow locked in?

Cane_man

08-10-2014, 09:41 PM

hey squish, inside the die is a lip that holds the insert in place, something like this: red is the die body, and green is the O1 insert

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/LeeExpanderDieBody_zpsc3de20c0.jpg

squished

08-11-2014, 07:07 AM

Ah, that makes sense.

nhrifle

08-11-2014, 05:23 PM

The .380 ACP die body also works perfectly

squished

08-11-2014, 06:44 PM

Thanks. I'm guessing the lip is already there and doesn't need to be machined in?

Cane_man

08-11-2014, 08:05 PM

yup... thats the beauty of it, 9/16" O1 drops right in and fits perfectly without any machining... just cut to length.

Cane_man

08-12-2014, 09:54 AM

The .380 ACP die body also works perfectly

yes, this does work well as others do... i have used the 9mm, 380, and 25 auto, and if the die mouth is not large enough i chuck it in the lathe and open it up with a rat-tail file... I am fairly certain that anything 9mm or smaller, pistol only, can be made to work... i tried 500 S&W and the lip was not large enough to hold the die in securely...

squished

08-12-2014, 05:18 PM

More good info. Thanks guys.

Larrypeterson

08-13-2014, 04:19 PM

cane_man,

I have been riveted to your presentation! I thank you for all the work and effort that has gone into this thread. I also thank you for sharing this information. I have failed in my attempt to make a .308 pointing die, however, now I am psyched' to do it again. Best wishes and much gratitude! LP

Cane_man

08-13-2014, 05:37 PM

R.Ph. 380

08-13-2014, 09:42 PM

Larry, glad you enjoyed it as much as I did writing this thread and making the dies...

keep at, man, making the pointing die is a game of attrition... that .308 wasn't a failure it was just another step in getting closer to completion... the very first one I tried to make was for 0.224, and it took me 7 or 8 tries to finally get it right... don't give up, keep at it!!! [smilie=b:

Getting ready to make a poor man's attempt at a pointing die. How many die bodies should I order to plan for my "steps toward completion"?:kidding: Really have enjoyed your saga here and will try it just because you have shown it's possible.

Bill

aaronraad

08-16-2014, 04:31 AM

Getting ready to make a poor man's attempt at a pointing die. How many die bodies should I order to plan for my "steps toward completion"?:kidding: Really have enjoyed your saga here and will try it just because you have shown it's possible.

Bill

Actually, I'm advised that at least one of the commercial bullet hand swaging die manufacturers will start out with 3 die bodies for a single point form die order. If all 3 come off it's like Yahtzee, but starting with 3 apparently assures that at least 1 will complete the customers order?

Twmaster

08-16-2014, 08:15 PM

CM,

What size Acro Lap did you get? I need to make a push-through sizer and that looks like THE tool to have for finishing.

Cane_man

08-17-2014, 09:08 AM

Tdub, I used the 9/32" barrel lap, part number 9-16-TH... you'll like these, ez to use and accurate

Cane_man

08-17-2014, 09:09 AM

Getting ready to make a poor man's attempt at a pointing die. How many die bodies should I order to plan for my "steps toward completion"?:kidding: Really have enjoyed your saga here and will try it just because you have shown it's possible.

Bill

Hey Bill, i would order three or four die bodies if this is your first attempt at the pointing die... you might get it right on the first try, you never know, though!

Twmaster

08-17-2014, 05:33 PM

Thanks C-M. I may just order an entire set as they would be useful for other work.

So basically you smear the lap with lapping compound and keep adjusting the lap until you get to the size you desire? Of course you are cleaning and reapplying lapping compound periodically.

Cane_man

08-17-2014, 11:35 PM

^^^ yep, thats about it, really easy to use

Twmaster

08-20-2014, 05:02 PM

Thanks for the tip on the Acro Lap. I bought a used 10 piece set off FeeBay for $40. They arrived today and I am very pleased. This will make my push through die nice and round inside.

Cane_man

08-21-2014, 10:28 PM

here are the loaded rounds, Norma 7mm-08 Rem Brass:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/LoadedRound7mm8S_zps4729df3c.jpg

customcutter

11-07-2014, 11:48 PM

CM, just re-read this again, great looking work on the bullets. I see you made a tool for cutting your ogives on the lathe. I've still got to figure out a way of doing it without so much material hanging out of the chuck, it is causing lots of deflection. I'm hoping that the grinder set up will work better than trying to cut with my set up.

Finally back to cutting grass every other week now, so I'm back in the shop. I started lapping my core seating die with 40 micron diamond paste. I've got to try and get some cores poured and sized so that I can measure my core seating die ID. I'll get some 55gr .224 ordered tomorrow for lapping the point forming die, I finally made a D reamer from HSS 1/4" round ground down to .217. I may try forming my own brass laps if I can get the proper ogive figured out. Electrician is supposed to be here tomorrow to hook up VFD to my 9X42 mill I bought 2 years ago and have converted to CNC. It'll be nice to be able to work in the shop finally. Still having lots of headaches and migraines, need to get that checked out now that I have time. Thank God I made diagrams and wrote lots of notes before I quit this project last spring. Most of the info is there just need to read it again. I looked through your posts didn't see anything about your radius turning setup. Did you post any pics anywhere else?

CC

Cane_man

11-08-2014, 12:21 PM

CC, so good to hear from you and great that you are back in the shop!!! I only have pics in this thread of the radius attachment, and yes deflection is an issue but manageable...

Pink_Vapor

11-08-2014, 02:43 PM

I wonder if the lines in the Berger bullet are there to assist in the "mushrooming" effect.
CC
The Bergers are very thin skinned like a match bullet, the only reason they work great for game is the much steeper pointed angle so they explode @ 4" in, instead of on impact.

Cane_man

12-15-2014, 01:20 PM

since the 9mm cases are thicker near the base they open up some at the tip and then keep driving at impact and hold together well...

Cane_man

11-24-2015, 11:29 PM

Anyone make the 30 cal dies?

Chad G

02-03-2016, 09:31 PM

I know this is a couple of months old but its still a great thread, and I've been slowly working toward making my own drawing die and reamers.

But I have hit the wall, when it comes to heat treating the O1 tool steel, I get it to orange color then quench in a big pot of canola oil and then put it into my preheated to 400degrees toaster oven for an hour. The steel is still able to be cut with a file. I made a boring bar to test the theory out before going gungho on the dies. When I chucked the bar in the lathe and trying to cut down a steel rifle case, the tip of the tool dulled and then chipped away. It is still magnetic, but so is my M2 part off blade and Cobalt drills.

Fired in a coffee can forge with mapp gas. Duration of soak is ~4 min, quench till it turns black and into the oven. I am tempted to build a small gas fired kiln and put a thermocoupler in it so I can monitor the temp, but its overkill IMO.

Any ideas?