.40 S&W severe leading problem. Help a newbie out?

[Mactrekr]

Ok, so, the condensed version; I am casting using the 2 cavity 175gr, single band Lee .40 cal tic mould. The product is clean, no frosting, no wrinkling. I'm using 90-95% WW! 5-10% lead tape weights, smelted into ingots. Water quenching every cast. Lee 4-20 pot. I'm loading using Winchester standard small pistol rivers and 5.0gr Accurate #2. Firearm is a compact, 3.25-ish barreled Taurus PT-140. Lubed with Lee Alox, sized using the Lee .401 sizing die, then lubed again with the Alox.I took out 5 rds, accuracy appears to be spot on, (judging by eye and mucho experience), but the lead left in the barrel looks like a VE Day ticker tape parade. The recoil was not extreme, but hotter than I am used to with factory or previous JHP loads I've done. I don't have the ability to test hardness at this juncture. Thought? Gratitude.

[500MAG]

What part of the barrel are you seeing the leading? Or most of the leading?

[RobS]

More info: I assume your COAL is around 1.100-1.200? You are up on charge wt. with the quicker AA#2 powder. I would load at the minimum of the reloading manual(s) and work up. What is the groove diameter of the barrel these boolits are going down? Also have you pulled a dummy round and measured the very edge of the base of the boolit to ensure it is at the intended diameter? Did you clean your barrel of all copper fowling before you shot the cast boolits?

[popper]

Hard alloy, Alex, hot load.

[Mactrekr]

Ok, so the majority of the leading appears to be about 2/3rds of the way down the barrel. Much to my embarrassment, I did not give the barrel a thorough cleaning prior to testing. I haven't checked my COAL, my digital calipers took a ****, (high quality from Harbor Freight) I will load down to minimums and start over. Gratitude for all the insight.

[Mactrekr]

Hard alloy, Alex, hot load.
Popper, can you elaborate?

[454PB]

My guess is that the Lee Alox is not doing the job, and/or the barrel wants a bigger boolit. Measure the barrel, and measure the boolits after sizing. Some of my Lee sizers produce a slightly smaller boolit than advertised. Unless you're very experienced with measuring tools, a caliper is inaccurate for measuring boolit diameter. A good micrometer is much better.

[RobsTV]

Never could get rid of leading with fast powder in 40 S&W using that boolit, no matter the load or lead hardness, and your powder is even faster. Switching to something around the speed of WSF cured this, and now using Silhouette (WAP), with similar good results. The high pressure 40 S&W was designed to use slower mid range powders like WAP.

[HATCH]

Its funny that you are dropping them in water yet you add pure lead to soften them up?
Run pure WW with no extra lead.
You can still water drop them.

When I fire 40's out of my factory glock barrel, I will get the same type leading. But when I switch barrels to my lone wolf barrel i don't get any leading.

Respond back with the load you are using (powder, grains?)
Also it does help to know your inside barrel diameter.

[randyrat]

I shot a bunch of bunches of 40 cal and it was a tough one... Your getting accuracy but have lead issues..I would try a different lube any kind but Alox...I'm sure if you were to send me your name and address, I would send you a free sample of lube and instruction on how to dip lube...Same with any of the other lube makers here.
Here is my take;
1- are you squeezing down the lead too much when seating
2 - crimping too much or squeezing the loaded round with a FCD
3 too fast of powder too hot of load for your barrel (rough or slightly out of spec)
4 rough inside barrel or copper fouling (read about smoothing inside barrel)
5 Use as fat a boolit (lead projectile) as you can and still chamber it
6 If everything is perfect you CAN use Alox and make it work
7 there is more but, have time restraint

[HATCH]

Hell i will send you a 100 boolits to try out..

[popper]

I think the others covered it, use a slower powder (unique/231), 50/50 COWW/pure and you could try the Hi-Tek coating. Works a lot better than Alox. Stops leading and no smoke.

[Mactrekr]

Ok, got it, NO ALOX! [smilie=b: So, what is your take on the 45/45/10 mix that Recluse came up with. I've got Alox, got oderless mineral spirits and JPW in hand. Better? Also, I'm going to drop the load to 4.4gr W231 and try it again. As to the WW/tape weight mix, that wasn't so much to soften the batch, as it was at the time I couldn't bring myself to waste PB. The bucket of WW I got was about 65% steel/zinc and it was getting depressing watching the throw away pile grow so much faster than the keepers pile. In the future, straight W/W although I might order some tin to balance out the 100lbs of ingots I've already put together. I'd be very happy to pay for samples of better lube if ya'll have recommendations. I shoot almost exclusively 9mm, .38/.357, .40S&W and .44 Mag. Haven't got a mould for .44 yet. so really no magnum type velocities to worry about yet. Also, I live in AZ, not the uber hot Phoenix area, but temps durring the summer months hover around 90 all day long. If there is a recommendation on lube I'm all ears. And thanks again.

[gunoil]

hi-tek in the AZ heat, you'll love it. Flux with alox.

[Ausglock]

I was using this bullet in a G35 40S&W. LLA was no good. I changed to Jake's Purple Cerasin lube in a Lyman 450 and no more leading issues. Just gunk issues. Now I HI-TEK coat and everything is clean, accurate and lead free.

Make sure if you are using a Lee FCD that it is not post sizing your bullets as the round enters the die for crimping. This was my problem. The bullets were getting sized down to .399 and then severely leading no matter what lube or coating I used.

[RobsTV]

Also, I'm going to drop the load to 4.4gr W231 and try it again. .

From my notes after a lot of testing with w231
Lee 401-175-TC (drop at 180gr)(OAL = 1.130)

W231 4.55gr, 897 fps, pf=161, 320 ft/lbs, ES-22, SD-8

And..... Still leading (carnauba red, and also tried combo of red + lla)
Powder still too fast.

Think of a 350hp car, you stomp on gas, tires spin throwing tread, then after a distance it hooks up. W231 same idea, max power right off the bat, skidding into rifling, and by the time it grabs, smaller boolit. Measuring recovered lead at smaller diameter than pulled boolits was another clue that confinced me.

WSF and WAP slower burn rate solved leading by not stomping the gas. Pedal not to the floor until movement and traction has been thoroughly engaged, then full power. I believe it stated somewhere that WAP (now Silhouette) was the powder used to develop the 40 S&W.

A harder boolit also makes it much worse. No or little obturation can occur. Tried HT and below until I found around 12BHN worked best with the 40 S&W.

Your results will be different.

[MT Gianni]

IME Lee Alox is a great lube. It is a 50-50 Alox beeswax mix that comes in a stick form. Lee Liquid Alox [LLA] is not Lee Alox but I suspect that is what you have.

[RobS]

Haven't got a mould for .44 yet. so really no magnum type velocities to worry about yet.

It's not about the velocities but rather the pressures associated. I prefer the slower powders as well for this cartridge unless I'm loading mouse fart loads. HS-6 worked well for me the last time I loaded up some 40 S&W rounds. I suspect WSF would work well too.

[RobS]

A harder boolit also makes it much worse. No or little obturation can occur. Tried HT and below until I found around 12BHN worked best with the 40 S&W.

Your results will be different.

I wouldn't say that a water quenched boolit is necessarily the problem or makes things worse. If the booit fits the bore (.001-.002 over bore diameter) then there is no need to obturate or bump up to seal the bore. A harder boolit can actually help stop the skid of the boolit base because it is tougher. A harder boolit can also help in keeping it from swaging down in the brass case upon seating.

I water quench all the 40 S&W's load. I shoot air cooled WW from 45 auto as well as some really soft HP's but still prefer slower burners for the 45 auto. On the flip side I shoot water quenched in my Ruger only 45 colt loads and 454 Casull (all PB boolits) but then run air cooled for light plinkers in those calibers. There are many variables that go into things here.

[leeggen]

Mactreker, I shoot the 40 s&w PX4. I use the 145grswc and I had to go to Accurate AA#5 also started using 50/50 ww and pure lead, mix a little tin for mould fillout, alox or FWL seems to do. Slug the barrel and size accordingly + .001 to .002 oversize. Also be sure to clean all copper out of the barrel, I didn't get all out first time and has a little mess to work on.
Good luck and keep trying change 1 thing at a time or you won't know what works and what doesn't.
CD

[destrux]

What I've found works in my .40 (after much trouble) using that same lee 175gr TC mould is this "formula".

First off, I use air cooled clip on wheel weight lead (sometime as is, sometimes with a little tin if my mould is giving me fill out problems that day). I prefer to air cool them because water dropping is messier and there's no need to harden them for pistol use anyway.

Then before sizing I clean them with some 91% rubbing alcohol in a plastic container and then air dry them, then I powder coat them and then I size them to .401" with a lee sizer die like you're using... no lube is needed because of the powder coating. Then I load them over 5.2gr of Unique at a 1.135" OAL.

Also, I've powder coated my expander plug so that it expands them a little more below the mouth flare. It's important to flare/bell the casing enough that it doesn't shave the powder coating off the bullet when you're seating the bullets. I also only set up the crimp so that it takes the bell off the case mouth... I don't crimp the bullet. I haven't had any problems with bullet setback.

I also had no luck with Lee Liquid Alox, no matter what I did. I was even running bullets as large as .404" in my gun with 50/50 beeswax/vaseline lube and was still getting leading. I had tried various charges of Bullseye and Unique and nothing was getting rid of the leading. The powder coating did the trick though, but it's not fast and easy like the lee liquid alox. Hi-Tek lube from bayou bullets seems a lot easier than powder coating, so maybe give that a shot if you can't get rid of the leading with normal lubes.

[RobS]

People have been using normal lubes for many, many years and don't have leading issues in the 40 S&W cartridge..............and accurate groups too. If people want to use a powder coat, epoxy paints or other non traditional lubes that is fine as that works well too but it's not the lube as the sole issue. Many people have been able to use tumble lubes too with no issues.

As been stated by others as well as myself, there are many variables.

[RobS]

Some good lubes that have been noted to work:
Recluse 45-45-10- Personally I don't know with this one as I've never used in it higher pressure rounds
White Label lubes
Randy Rat Lubes
The Bullshop lubes
Lithi-Bee lubes
Ben's Red
FWFL
among many others including the most recent non traditional lubes (powder coating, piglet coating, epoxy paint etc.) that are in the bullet lube section.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Boolit-Lube-!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?26524-Just-the-facts-Lube-recipes

[afish4570]

Using Acc. # 5, 5.7 gr.,with Lee 175 FP mould. Actual wt. about 183 lubed. Water dropped and sized at .401 with Lars 2500. Also used Lars Xlox sized in Lee die to 401 and lubed with Xlox again. Lead is range lead......nothing special. Starting with a clean barrel and cleaning after every shooting session with a min. of leading. Using copper chore girl on patch (dry, no solvent) will remove whatever leading you have. Barrel seems to be seasoned and easier to keep lead free as time goes on. Gun used is a 96 Beretta.Don't crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.....Min. crimp so as not to crush bullet and make it undersized. Works for me. afish4570

[RobsTV]

There is also another possibility that might work for a quick and easy solution. Pre-made PB GC from sellers here. For less than 2 cents a round, these easily swag onto plain base boolits during the normal sizing step. Lead hardness, powder burnrate, lube and speed shot at, and GC might remove leading from the equation, so you can concentrate on accuracy or other items important to you. I have tried them in a problem 9mm with great success.

[Mactrekr]

Ok, so I loaded down to 4.4gr of W231. Haven't been out to the range to try yet. I'll keep y'all posted.

[popper]

Recluse 45-45-10 I tried it, no go. Same with diluted Lee LLA. 4.4gr of W231 my normal range load. I'm now using the H-T coating on 9mm & 40SW. XDS9 - 1' group @ 7 yds first time. XDM 40 - 2" @ 25 on a good day, PX4 40 which always leaded until I H-T lubed. Just too easy and solves the problem. I was leery of the hype about it until I tried it. $50 for 1/2 liter at your door, $50 for a toaster oven, Alum. foil lined cardboard tray and you are ready. Lube 500 in an hr. Yes the old timers may not like the idea of 'non-traditional' stuff. The 'T' was a workhorse but my truck is more comfortable and easier to drive (& start).

[geargnasher]

One can build successful loads using just about any reasonable powder, alloy, lube, or boolit style in the .40, the trick is how you put it together. There isn't any magic to it, just little margin for error of loading techniques when compared to the low-pressure .45 ACP. Think outside the component, name, or brand box and start thinking about how to make the components work together. Want to eliminate leading? Balance the load to the alloy for a gentle launch and make certain your boolit is fitting the barrel properly from case to muzzle exit. I hate liquid Alox, but guess what? It will work fine with the .40, even if you don't make the superior (IME) Recluse lube with it. There are some limitations, but it works IF you fit things and put them together correctly. Watering down WW with pure lead and water dropping them for hardness is actually a very good idea for this picky little cartridge, unless you are trying for more comfortable, midrange loads. One thing's for sure, the .40 will show you how much you really know about shooting lead, and give you one heck of an opportunity to learn how to do it better.

Gear

[popper]

Gear is correct. Sometimes that path is frustrating. Are you sure your boolits aren't too big? I've had trouble with chamber shearing and it leaving strips at the muzzle end. For some reason, seating deeper helped.

[randyrat]

I'm not sure if anyone suggested it yet....Pull a couple seated/loaded rounds and check them for size...The forty empty case may be squeezing them down and Walla your problem.
Kinda what Gear said; from case to muzzle. You may need to expand your brass a bit more before loading or seating your bullets. Very common problem that will cause baldness, gray hair and TMJ at night

[randyrat]

Here is a good article on accuracy for revolvers. There is some good cross over info for autos also...Read the section on bullet seating.
http://www.levergun.com/articles/thoughts.htm

Credit M.L. McPherson
"For standard loads (not benchrest type), the basic rule is quite simple – always use the most neck tension feasible without significantly damaging bullet during seating (swaging it smaller or significantly upsetting nose). I pull many bullets for examination and have a good selection of expanders. This might seem unnecessary but you should have an expander matched to each case and bullet combination. You could end up owning and using three or four expanders in each basic size."
Take what you want out of it may help you

[gimling]

I actually have the same mold and same gun, I also have the same sizer. I am using hogdon HP-38 with a 4.5gr load. For 1 if your using wheel weights don't water quench that's almost doubling the hardness. I use almost pure lead that I water quench and end up with 10-12 BHN, sounds like your load maybe a bit hot, what is your crimp measurement on the brass? I don't see why your lubing twice its not nessesary, I personally have switched to Powder coating, its super easy and keeps barrel clean as a whistle/

My measurements
OAL 1.134
width .424
4.5grn hogdon HP-38

almost tacking from benchrest at 7yards.