Accuracy issues

[GunnyJohn]

Hey Front Stuffers,

I have a .54 cal Cabelas rifle. I can't get the thing to put four rounds in a 12 x12 target at 100 yards. I'm shooting 90 grains of FFFG pyrodex, and a patched round ball, as per the Lyman Black Powder Handbook.
I am showing some wear marks on the barrel where the brass fore end cap hits it. Is this nomal. I know on centerfires this can produce barrel preassure and cause wondering groups. Is it the same with muzzle loaders? Any other thoughts? I'm kinda new to these Other ended loading rifles, and would appreciate any help and or wisdom from those who know.

[fouronesix]

I assume it's a regular half stock sidelock??? If so then:

Pull your target back to 50 yards.

Those barrels are usually stiff enough that small amounts of barrel/stock stress won't have a 12+ MOA effect on the ability to group. Some yes, but not that much. You can relieve the tang inlet/barrel channel and glass bed both if desired.

But first- I'd "re-tool" the approach. Get a few .530 and .535 roundballs. Get at least two different thicknesses of patching--- example would be more or less .012" and .016". Try straight moose milk for patch lube. Try some FF blackpowder and start with about 55 grains and work up in 5-10 gr increments. Try swabbing followed by dry patching between shots. Try shooting shot strings without swabbing. Change one variable at a time and see what happens. There is a learning curve with MLs but rarely will one or two range sessions provide the full education. Clean well at end of day.

[mooman76]

If you are talking the crown, yes it can cause problems. Wear marks are normal but not sure what you mean by wear. Not really sure but I would think it would be less of a problem but still can be a problem. There are lots of things you can look at to improve accuracy. Unless you have some real damage to the crown I would look at other areas first before the crown. There are some other things we need to know to help you or else we will just be throwing things at you hoping we happen to get one right. What lube are you using, kind of patch and thickness if you know. Is your gun fairly new or been used allot and the kind of shape the bore is in? Do you swab between shots and how often?
For testing I would bring it back to 25-50y and when you get it shooting there, move out farther. One thing that can tell you allot is the fired patches. See if you can find some of them. If they are shredded that means you have a rough, sharp bore or need better patches. I also would drop the charges down some. Drop them down to 60gr and once you get it shooting good increase the charges a little at a time until accuracy starts to drop off.

[missionary5155]

Greetings and welcome to the world of dirty smudges everywhere.
First was this a used .54 ?
2nd What condition is the barrel if used? clean, rusted ??? Is the muzzle crown OK ? Is the barrel snug in the stock ?
Is this a flinter or percussion? Is this barrel rifled or smooth bore?
What size ball and patch thickness are you using ? When you start the patched ball is it snug,tight,loose ? As you ram the patched ball down barrel is the resistence even or are there tight and loose places ?
Are the sights tight or woobling about ?
90 grains of 3F is about the top pressure load for that smoker. I would back off to 60 grains and work at getting some practice at 25 yards. Holding steady is very important as the ball takes a much longer time to exit. When you can cloverleaf at 25 yards move to 50 yards and start over.
Fore end cap... If in dought remove it and see what happens.
I know I just asked alot but not knowing these facts it is a random shot me guessing.
Mike in Peru

[Dean D.]

Hi Gunny. I don't shoot BP subs in my ML but I would suggest reducing your charge and work up to see what your gun prefers. My .54 likes 70gr of FFG Goex BP behind a .530 RB patched with .018" thick pillow ticking from Walmart. Every gun is going to have it's own recipe that it likes best.

I'd also reduce your range some till you find the most accurate combination then increase your distance.

Hope that helps.

[waksupi]

Don't worry about the wear marks.
Get rid of the Pyrodex, and use real BP. You should find happiness around 70 gr. 3F, and similar or a smidge more of 2F.

[NSB]

Muzzle loaders require cleaning between shots for best accuracy. I've never owned a muzzle loader that shot well without cleaning after each shot. One wet patch followed by two dry at a minimum. Also, the patch/ball should be pretty snug going down the barrel even well lubed. If it's too loose (real easy to push down the barrele you won't get your best accuracy. As suggested above, start light on the powder charges and work up until you start to lose accuracy. I always shot black powder out of my front stuffers but Pyrodex will work just fine.

[mooman76]

Another thing. Like all thing accurate, consistency is the key.

[OnHoPr]

As the above has provided good inquiries to your accuracy problem such as barrel condition inside and crown should be first considerations. Also, the rate of twist that the barrel has should be considered for the projectile for the yardage. The ball & patch should be started with a gentle but firm rap and then should be shoved down the barrel with smooth firmness till firmly seated with the same 5 - 10 lbs of pressure, (don't do any rod bouncing). If you feel a lot of roughness while ramming then the barrel can be pitted As for powders, all barrels and methods of loading them differ. I have never used BP YET. MY barrel likes PDex Sel then PDex over the non sulfur types. I have not tried Blackhorn or the new Alliant Black MZ yet either. Patches and lubes can be critical for accuracy per individual barrel. I've tried bore butter, maxi lube, spit, murphay's, bore cleaner, and such but mine likes precision lube 2000 so using the same patch and ball with the different lubes can make a difference. As well, the different patches can make a difference, and balls as well. Patches should still be in one piece after the shot. If you are referring to a loose stock pin or the like then yes it can cause accuracy issues if your barrel is jiggling around in the stock while shooting. REMEMBER TO CLEAN THE BARREL EVERY TIME AFTER SHOOTING.

[waksupi]

They only need cleaned between each shot if you are using a crappy lube.

[GunnyJohn]

First of all, Thanks guys. To answer some of the ?'s The rifle was used when I got it. It is a half stock Percussion Hawken style rifle. The crown appears to be fine, no dings or marring. I don't have any black powder but I do have FFG and FFFg Pyrodex. Our gun shop was out of Goex the last time I was in, and I'm waiting for a call when it comes in. The round balls I'm using are .530, and for patches I have .015 yellow prelubed and .018 pillow ticking prelubed. I did't know about swabbing between shots. Do you use water for the wet patches? As far as the BP goes should I start with 2f or 3f ? I was reading the Lyman BP handbook and am wondering if 70 grains would be enough for an elk, if so, at what yardage? Again thanks for all the help. The ball starts pretty firmly and maintains a fairly constant resistance to the final seating.

[Lead Fred]

Muzzle loaders require cleaning between shots for best accuracy.

Horse pucky. Maybe them third world production junk guns do.

Ive shot 100s of rounds without cleaning, and everyone follows the last one.

Now to the OP post.

If your using s 28-33 inch barrel, there is a good chance with 90grs your stripping the lands with a thin patch.

lower your load to 55-60 grains @ 50 yards, and work up from there.

There are so many varibles with shooting muzzle stuffers, your best bet is to use real holy black powder, .530 ball & .015 patch

[oldracer]

I agree with the other posts for the most part. The key is to get a note book and jot down what you try and the results. Shoot at least 10 rounds for each test and only change one thing at a time. I would test the following with real black powder only so I'd suggest waiting until you can get some. I agree with backing the target up to 50 yards. I would suggest shooting from a solid rest to take you away from the variables. I and most of the folks I shoot with use Goeax FFG. In most cases we wipe between shots although several of the flint lock guys go a whole match without wiping. I would also try starting at 60gr and going up to 70gr or so as that should be plenty out to 100 yards even. Last of all, try to find some of the patches and see what they look like. They should be frayed around the edges but not ripped or blown out so that will tell you the ball, patch and barrel are all sized okay. Good luck

[mooman76]

How's the lube on your prelubed patches? It can get dried out if it's old. I prefer the old fashion spit patch. Works good and you don't have swab between shos. It alreadead did it for you. Won't be good for hunting because it will dry out but good for paper punching.

[Lonegun1894]

If I may make a suggestion... All the advice you have been given so far is absolutely correct. The name of the game is consistency. Having said that, do me a favor, and I am saying this because it helped me a lot too when I finally got around to doing this. Go to this website http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/ and buy his "system". It is a step by step set of instructions that will save you time, money (powder, lead, etc), and a lot of frustration. Most of mine have been easy to get to shoot right, but I have one thatwent from not being able to stay on a pie plate at 25yds before to 3-4"@100yds after. All the others improved also, but not near as drastically as this one.

[OnHoPr]

If you are interested in getting it ready for a elk hunt because of your interest, according to Speer #10 assuming that is a relatively newer style percussion cap you can go all the way up to 120 gr volume. Though accuracy is your main concern at the moment. IMO 70 gr would be the lowest amount of volume for the elk at 100 yards possibly in 10 - 20 mph winds. Just for an example I took Speer 490's, Hornady 490's, Lee 490's, and Lee 490's tumbled using the same powder, same volume, same primer, same lube, same gun, same day, same loading style and pressure and shot at 50 yards benched. Without a question there were differences in the groups and the Lee 490's shot the best, as an example on how different components can effect accuracy. Now they were all accurate enough to harvest a whitetail but the Lee's made one ragged hole. I didn't mic the balls though. I also don't know if it was because the factory balls were swagged instead of :castmine:, in my particular gun. But for assuming they were all PB 490's it was enlightening. Good luck on the elk hunt.:Fire:

[Maven]

"I am showing some wear marks on the barrel where the brass fore end cap hits it. Is this nomal?"

Gunnyjohn, If you grasp the unloaded bbl. near the muzzle and try to move or twist it, will it move? I ask because the wear marks you mentioned suggest the wedge (or wedges), which hold the bbl. to the stock, may be loose and need shimming. Just some food for thought.

[Dirty30]

GunnyJohn, I hunt elk with a .54 cal Tennessee rifle. My load is 90gr. of FFFG GOEX, a .530 roundball, and pillow ticking patches. FFG will work just fine for you as well. There is a lot of good info here, but don't overthink things and try to learn it all in one day. Sight in at 25 yds on a light load. Refine your load and zero when you can group consistently. I wouldn't recommend hunting elk with any less than 80gr. When I'm target shooting I just spit patch, when hunting I use lube. I like FFFG BP because it doesn't seem to foul up the barrel as bad, but I have never had to clean between every shot. I would question my methods or my rifle if that were the case.

If you stuff your ball with the wooden end of your ramrod you will never damage the crown or barrel. I see a lot of guys stuffing with that cleaning jag and just shake my head.

[Dirty30]

Sorry I forgot about the rest of your post. The only appropriate cleaning solution for your rifle is water. If you want to put a little dish soap in there that's fine. Swab the barrel dry and run an oily patch down it. I like 5W-30. I won't take a shot at an elk over 100 yds, because that's where I'm comfortable. Keep in mind that heavy roundball starts losing a lot of energy pretty quick and elk are tough critters that can soak up a lot of lead. I suppose it may seem crazy to use motor oil in your rifle, but keep in mind that BP is corrosive as hell and you want an oil that will stay with your barrel for awhile.

[Lead Fred]

You mix oil and black powder residue you get SLUDGE

Forget everything you know about firearms, and go read on black powder firearms.

Whole different ball of wax.

We only use Thompson Center 1000+ products.

I have NEVER cleaned my rifle with water, never had oil in it, and its clear and shiny and shoots like a house on fire.

For a 54 cal you want 2f holy black

Dont know where all these manuals come from, but what I see posted here, they are moslty wrong.

[NSB]

I've been shooting muzzle loaders for over 40 years. I can assure you that you will shoot better groups cleaning between shots than no cleaning. I've spent a lot of time comparing methods and keeping track of the results. There's lots of good advice here and lots of bad advice here. Remember, most guys who go to a shoot don't win, they just shoot. I doubt the winner of a big match did it without cleaning between shots. When hunting, and needing a follow-up shot, I don't clean. The second shot may not hit exactly the same as the first but it's "close enough" to get the job done at that point. I'm an accuracy nut. I try to get the most out of my equipment and myself. Shortcuts don't win. Try it yourself, clean and don't clean. You'll soon see the difference regardless of what anyone says. The proof is in the groups.

[dondiego]

Lead Fred - What do you clean your ML with if not with water? What do you use as a rust preventative?

[waksupi]

I've been shooting muzzle loaders for over 40 years. I can assure you that you will shoot better groups cleaning between shots than no cleaning. I've spent a lot of time comparing methods and keeping track of the results. There's lots of good advice here and lots of bad advice here. Remember, most guys who go to a shoot don't win, they just shoot. I doubt the winner of a big match did it without cleaning between shots. When hunting, and needing a follow-up shot, I don't clean. The second shot may not hit exactly the same as the first but it's "close enough" to get the job done at that point. I'm an accuracy nut. I try to get the most out of my equipment and myself. Shortcuts don't win. Try it yourself, clean and don't clean. You'll soon see the difference regardless of what anyone says. The proof is in the groups.


This is true. When working up a new load in a ML, I will clean between shots, a la Dutch Schultz. If I was shooting bench competition, that is the method I would definitely use. As it is, the majority of my shooting is off hand. What I gain from using the cleaning method in load development is the knowledge that I am shooting the most efficient and accurate loading in my firearms. I don't swab between shots on trail walks, as the gained small amount of accuracy is not generally critical. But you must do the work on the bench to know what your rifle likes.
Those who use more or less powder for different ranges don't know much about their firearm, or they would know that there is one accurate load that works well, and any divergence from that is not giving the best performance.

Another point, I shoot 3fff in everything from .32 to .62, rifle and smoothbore.

[Boerrancher]

I follow the same rule as Waksupi in the above post. Since all of the matches I shoot are off hand and I shoot off hand while hunting I don't ever worry about cleaning between shots after I have developed a load. My 32 cal has had 100 rounds fired out of it with out ever cleaning it, and it was still shooting well enough on the last shot to take a squirrels head off at 30 yards. Good powder and good lube are the two critical components to continuous shooting without cleaning.

Some of the matches I shoot are 50 shot matches, and you are only allowed to have a small hunting bag with you for your supplies. By the time you pack 50 balls and patch material, priming powder, regular powder, a few extra flints, some lube, and a small tool for the flints, you are packed. If I choose to use my trade gun that is 2.5 lbs of lead alone, not to mention everything else, can you imagine the extra mess with all the extra patches for cleaning, not to mention the water? Just my $.02 worth is all.

Joe