The ENERGY MYTH...and it's constant resurgence.

[cainttype]

As a gung-ho teenager with the new-found ability to assemble my own ammo, I also suffered from a hunger to experience as many firearm/cartridge combinations as I could possibly get my hands on. I read everything I could find in books and gun magazines.
Today's Internet makes things unimaginably easier for newcomers to the game, athough some things remain the same... Look practically anywhere concerning firearm cartridges or the potential value of them and two things always show up, velocity and energy. The recurring problem is that many people with good intentions are led to believe the myth that energy somehow equals "Stopping Power"... Far from the truth.
Let's agree that terminal performance, what the projectile actually DOES to the target, determines the appropriate choice for any given application. It would be foolish to suggest that a 30-06 loaded with a 110 gr bullet @3500 fps and 3000 lbs of energy is as good bear or moose medicine as a 220 @ 2476 fps and 2995 ft/lbs, or a 44 Mag 180 gr @ 1890 fps and 1437 ft/lbs would be better than a 325 LFN @ 1300 fps and 1219 ft/lbs.
Although there are reasons for everything from light-weight frangibles to heavy-weight solids the concept that "energy" should be used as a major determining factor in ammunition choice is, at best, seriously flawed. Projectile design and intended application within a given velocity range are the important things to consider.
Put simply, the ONLY thing energy really tells me is if 2 identical weight projectiles have different ft/lb figures they are moving at different velocities. Since some projectiles might be designed for my given application to perform at impact velocities of 1000 fps, or possibly 3000 fps, it's not energy that concerns me most. Magazine writers and ammo manufacturers constantly proclaiming energy as crucial do the shooting community a disservice, and the ones suffering the most are guys with good intentions doing their best to learn.
Momentum is a far more useful tool in my opinion, but even it's applications benefit emmensely from practical experience.

[popper]

Uhh, Energy=M*V^2, Momentum=M*V. So you are saying WHAT?

[Outpost75]

If momentum were so important the recoil would be more dangerous than the bullet.

[303Guy]

Actually, E=½MV². (E=MC² refers to the conversion of mass into energy and vice versa).

I used to try a combination of energy and momentum to assess terminal performance. I read that some calibers have a killing power out of proportion to their size, the 257 Roberts comes to mind. Well, I don't have one but I do have a 25/303 and one day I got to compare it to a 308 and I can say there was no discernible difference in killing power between the two, similar velocity, 100gr versus 150gr. I'm betting that on bigger game the 308 would begin to show superiority. With a different bullet, the 25/303 was better than the 308 on the same small game. I'm betting it would be no good on big game (unless heart/lung shots only were taken and at closer ranges). Then again I've compared my humble 22 hornet to a 308 (unknown bullet) on turkey at the same range (200m) and again the the difference was indiscernible. The hornet would have been slower at that range. My 303 with a particular heavier bullet was more destructive on turkey than the 308 and hornet (disassembled them). Probably due to the 303 bullet having a small meplat on the soft nose. Energy and momentum had nothing to do with it since most of the energy (except for the hornet) was dumped in the back-stop. The hornet had a similar muzzle velocity to the 308 but the 303 was way slower and had less energy than the 308 (and less momentum).

[imashooter2]

A bowling ball rolled by a three year old has more momentum than the 220 grain .30/06 in the OP. I know which I'd rather be hit in the foot with.

[303Guy]

If momentum were so important the recoil would be more dangerous than the bullet.
Yup, gun recoil momentum is more than the bullet momentum. I think a bullet needs both enough momentum and energy.

[cainttype]

When the above listed loads are calculated with M= kg x meters per second the .308 110 with a slight energy advantage to the 220 show momentum of 7.61 for the 110 gr pill and 10.76 for the 220. That's completely reversing the "advantage", slight as it was that energy might lead someone to believe, and by a wide margin.
With the 44 180 gr @ 1437 ft/lbs and the 325 @ 1219 ft/lbs of energy, momentum for the 180 is 6.74 when the 325 comes in at 8.34. Another complete reversal, and a far better way to guage the potential for both examples for the stated purposes.
I suspect that energy has been used almost to exclusion by ammo manufacturers because it's less expensive to make. Light bullets are cheaper and can be pushed faster, creating energy figures higher than the heavier projctiles in any given cartridge, rifle or handgun. If the public is convinced that energy is the most important thing to count on, ammo that costs less to produce can be sold for higher prices. It's a win/win situation from a cost/profit standpoint.

[Castaholic]

In my opinion the whole energy craze is a marketing scheme. Look at the popular rounds of today and the new ones being released. Everything is a magnum and most are moving at high velocities which favor energy. I personally would rather take in the real world experiences of many people using a certain round used in hunting, penetration tests, etc.

[cainttype]

I'd like to quote the original post. "Projectile design and intended application within a given velocity range are the important things to consider."

[.5mv^2]

Kinetic energy is my handle. Good stuff, physics!

[44MAG#1]

This going to be an argument that will never solve anything other than just to garner a huge number of post.
There will be people that will believe in energy and/or momentum, Taylor Knock Out value and maybe a number of other things.
There will be no changing most of them.
1/2mass (in pounds) times velocity squared divided by 32.1740 equals energy or velocity squared divided by 450436 times bullet weight equals energy.
And no I don't want to know that mass cannot be weighed because mass will have Newtonian weight which is derived from kilograms so it can be weighed to get the kilograms to get Newtonian weight. Pounds can be derived from kilograms and vise versa. So, lets don't go there.
Again what difference does all this make as long as the guy hunting gets his game regardless of what kills it.

[Nobade]

I am more of a Taylor KO fan myself. After watching what a great many different bullets do to a great many different targets I believe he is on the right track.

KO=(bullet mass * bullet velocity * bullet diameter)/7000

A 58 cal. minie' bullet at 800 fps absolutely will destroy the insides of a deer but is very puny if you look at just the energy. A 150 gr. 30-06 bullet will do about the same thing when it hits, but the energy is way higher. It all matters.

-Nobade

[imashooter2]

The aforementioned bowling ball rolled by a three year old has a very impressive TKO rating as well. [smilie=1:

[303Guy]

The aforementioned bowling ball rolled by a three year old has a very impressive TKO rating as well. [smilie=1:
Not really - the velocity isn't there and since there is a division by 7000 the result could be less than zero.

If Nobade says the Taylor KO is good then it's good! It's an indication or guide when making a selection.

JBM - Calculations uses OGW (BG) or (SM). It does seem intuitively correct. Does anyone know this system? How good or bad is it? How does it compare with Taylor KO?


... an argument that will never solve anything other than ...I'm hoping to gain more insight from experienced hunters who have taken note of which boolit does what under which circumstances.

[cainttype]

The original intent was not to begin a debate about the merits of energy vs momentum, TKO, or even bowling balls. The actual reference to momentum was at the very end of a few simple comparisons of bullets of identical caliber being considered for any application with energy as a guide. In this case, "bear or moose medicine" seemed easy enough for a new-to-reloading individual to visualize.
In both scenarios, energy was not even remotely able to help choose the best load. Why would anyone think otherwise?
The fact that I place much more faith in bullet design and find energy figures to be virtually useless other than telling me which bullet of 2, of identical weight, is moving faster...higher energy=faster bullet IF they weigh the same, is my personal opinion.
We can, and should in my opinion, explain the usefulness (or lack thereof) of energy tabulations to the next generations of shooter/reloaders before someone else confuses them.

[williamwaco]

[smilie=b:


This difference of opinion argument has been going on for well over 100 years.
It has never been settled - and never will.

I use the word argument advisedly because that is what it is.
I rarely see any semblance to a debate.

The only real answer to the question is the same as to many other shooting questions: "It depends."

[Gtek]

At 52 I have removed the life force from many of Gods creatures to the point I have long lost count. One reads articles and one ponders the magical performance of the bullet/boolit cartridge combination. I feel I have at this point a real good idea what works and what does not, and having a couple life long hunting buddies that think they are medical examiners sure doesn't hurt. All the studies, gelatin, chrony's and all the other black magic cannot calculate the type of being, it's angle, width, hydration level, health, temp, humidity at the time of sear release. Shooting paper/gelatin is as close to a constant at that moment as I think we will ever have, everything outside of that semi-controlled environment is a REALLY big variable. If you have shot something and it did not DRT, first shoot it again so you do not have to look so hard. Second , find out why it did not flop. When you get hole in and hole out with non collapsing wound channel nipping the hydraulic supply pump and part of the ventilation system- call it good my friend, life is short. Gtek

[imashooter2]

Not really - the velocity isn't there and since there is a division by 7000 the result could be less than zero.

If Nobade says the Taylor KO is good then it's good! It's an indication or guide when making a selection.

JBM - Calculations uses OGW (BG) or (SM). It does seem intuitively correct. Does anyone know this system? How good or bad is it? How does it compare with Taylor KO?

I'm hoping to gain more insight from experienced hunters who have taken note of which boolit does what under which circumstances.

TKO can never be less than zero no matter how light, slow or small in diameter the projectile is. The math is simple:

(112,000 grains x 5 fps x 8.55 inches) / 7000 = 684 TKO

Maybe the three year old is weak...

(112,000 grains x 1 fps x 8.55 inches) / 7,000 = 136.8 TKO

Now the .58 caliber smoke pole...

(280 grains x 3,000 fps x .570 inches) / 7000 = 68.4 TKO

And I suspect Nobade's smoke pole makes somewhat less than 3,000 fps. I don't doubt that the .58 caliber muzzle loader will slay most anything that breaths in fine fashion. I simply point out that TKO has its faults, same as pure energy or pure momentum or... well you get the point.

[felix]

Same old debate about 1950-60s torque versus horsepower. Back then "love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage" went as well. Today, anything and everything goes!!! ... felix

[.5mv^2]

In physics, the pound is a unit of force rather than mass. A common misconception.

[35remington]

The problem with all the substitute "theories" is that they are generally more flawed than the energy equation.

For example, some greatly overvalue bullet diameter, or are formulae never intended for expanding bullets. TKO, for example, was supposed to be intended only for "estimating" the potential of a large caliber rifle shooting nonexpanding bullets to knock an elephant out for some period of time. Peruse John Taylor's work.

It was never intended to be used any other way.....yet some proclaim it "perfect" to back up their theories because it promotes a favored cartridge over one they don't like so much. In terms of scientific relevancy, the TKO formulae is twaddle. For hunting hooved herbivores and comparing rifles from large to small and slow to fast it's utterly irrelevant.

TKO would probably favor the aformentioned rather slow .58 minie at 800 fps..... which simply makes a hole through a deer's lung tissue and the lungs largely are intact save for said slightly larger than .58 hole. A 150 30-06 using expanding bullets at similar close range will mostly make the lungs disappear. A difference in energy transmission favoring the faster bullet and not at all modeled by the TKO idea.

Said by a guy who has shot projectiles of very similar weight and velocity to the above comparison through deer.....and yeah, there's no comparison. The '06 is far more damaging, just as the energy figures suggest it can be.

The energy idea is far from perfect. But it's better than the formulae some would advance as "superior." One really must have their head in the sand to think some of these postulations have any more, if as much, validity as the energy calculation.

Thus we have not yet replaced it, mostly because we have not thought of anything better since smokeless powder was created.

[truckjohn]

I agree with the OP... It seems like the Energy thing pops up over and over... but it seems like in real life - it's more of a threshold effect...

If the animal is larger than the shock cavity - then nothing special happens vs any other bullet in the same place....

If the animal is smaller than the shock cavity - then you get disassembly and goo....

Clonk a squirrel or cat with a 22-250 and you find pieces.... Clonk a deer with the same 22-250 and the results are more or less dependent on where you hit it....

Thanks

[popper]

My comment(yes your equation is accurate 303guy), is that a bool it with mass and velocity will. Have calculated energy and momentum, you can't change one without changing the other. Wen the bool it stops, both are zero. So it doesn't make any difference which you want to use, except for arguing purposes. Torque and horsepower is a different discussion.

[rsterne]

The TKO value of a hand thrown baseball is twice that of a Nitro Express.... but I don't think I would expect beaning an Elephant in the head with a baseball would kill him very effectively.... Penetration is proportional to Sectional Density times Velocity (for a given bullet shape and construction, and target density).... For a fixed caliber, that means that Penetration is proportional to Momentum.... If you want to look into the debunking of ballistics myths, here is a good starting point....

http://africanxmag.com/debunking_ballastic_myths.htm

Bob

[303Guy]

Interesting read. He doesn't tell us what the unknown ballistician said! Pity.

I didn't do any checks on the bowling ball, so yes, TKO falls short. I had simply assumed anyone creating a 'formulae' would have checked it out. It's not all that difficult to take a set of 'applied values' over as wide a range as possible then fit an equation to those values. The applied values would have to be assessments made on observations. I can produce one such assessed value and no more. That would be the first point on a graph. It goes like this, a 55gr .224 Hornady spire point launched at 2700 fps is adequate for goat sized animals out to 100 yds. It just plumb works, dropping them on the spot time after time. I would have no way of differentiating this bullets performance against another that also works that may be more powerful or less powerful. But intuitively, I am suggesting that goats are the largest critter for that bullet, load and distance. Feral hogs are another matter and I'd intuitively consider that load to be inadequate and simply wouldn't try it. Pigs and goats can be the same weight (bigger goat and smaller pig).

Oh, those bullets passed clean through the goats.

[44man]

The OP has it correct except for momentum which also does not aid killing. I have pushed the fallacy of velocity, energy, etc, forever. There is not a formula or ever will be that explains anything. Same as there will never be a twist calculation.
You learn in the field. Shoot jello or papers or jugs of water and you just have fun because that will not tell you a single thing either.
I have one illustration to help explain. I have shot a lot of deer behind the shoulders with the .475 Linebaugh and the .500 JRH. The .475 will destroy the insides with no meat loss but the JRH pokes a hole with no blood on the ground. The JRH starts to work with full length penetration, front to rear. Seems to make it through the lungs with just a hole and starts to make mush of the rest of the deer. Dwell time!
Specs; Hard cast WFN boolits. .475, 420 gr at 1350 fps. .500 JRH, 440 gr at 1350 fps.
20 gr difference only, yet the JRH does not even know a deer was in the way if shot behind the shoulders. Explain this momentum to me? Could boolit weight and diameter go the wrong way?
I call it "boolit work." What I have seen shows the JRH needs some expansion to slow it a little for deer but it will work on large animals as is.
Energy kills but must be applied in the right place over the right distance for the animal.
Energy dump is another myth. Velocity of magnums is for one thing--distance with a flat trajectory so the energy is still enough to make a bullet work.
Everyone around here uses 7mm and .300 mags, they lose more deer then you will believe. I found 12 on one 12 acre property last year and never walked it all. Found 10 more hunting shrooms in the spring.
They have the energy tick in their heads!

[cainttype]

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer. The original post shows loads in IDENTICAL diameters being compared, one comparison in 30 cal and another comparison in 44.
It is clear that any attempt to discern the proper load from either set for the stated purpose of hunting large game should NOT be done using energy as THE determining factor by a newbee, and that's the point of the thread.
The loads used as examples come from the Hodgdon website.

Yes, any given boolit with energy has momentum and, yes, the two increase with velocity. They are not, however, the same. My 1st reply to the earliest posts here clearly shows that.
Bowling balls, rifle buttstocks, and attempting to compare 1 diameter against another (.257 vs .308, for instance) are a distraction from what was said...I'd suggest rereading the original.

I'm not even the least bit surprised that a few feathers get ruffled in a forum like this, but I am a little surprised at the lack of reading comprehension. If someone thinks it can be demonstrated that comparing 2 identical diameter projectiles by energy figures instead of bullet design and expected impact velocity is a good idea, they are wrong... It's as simple as that.

[cainttype]

I never stated that momentum was an end-all solution. It is a different tool, and one that better demonstrated the potential of the load used in the original post for the stated purpose. I do think it should be given in ballistic tables along with all other pertinent data. I also cautioned it's use and recommended practical experience in it's application for load choices.

[popper]

303guy - as an aside, E=½MV² E=MC² the x/2 difference is the average between 2 distance measurements. It disappears in the atomic equation as time and distance are void, per Einstein. This discusses the relationship between them http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/relmom.html. P was just an easy measurement for Newton to make and has little practiacal value, physically. The rest of the post and I believe the object of the OP's post is terminal ballistics. For our purpose, terminal ballistics is the LOSS of ENERGY of the projectile. Loss is by fragmentation, mushrooming, displacement of target material, etc.

[44MAG#1]

"In physics, the pound is a unit of force rather than mass. A common misconception"

This isn't physics class. A pound is a unit of force because we have mass that is pulled upon by gravity. (force of gravity)
Any time a weight is setting on anything it produces force against that object. Thanks to the amount of gravitational pull of where that mass resides.
THAT is why ENERGY is figured by the equation of 1/2 mass (in pounds) times velocity squared divided by 32.1740.
That is it.
Just like the weight of mass is the weight of that mass in KILOGRAMS multiplied by the speed of gravity in meters per second which is 9.80675445013411 meters per second.
We aren't figuring Kilograms of energy or Newton of energy but pounds.
Kilograms can be converted to pounds and pounds to kilograms.
No way around it.

[45 2.1]

Energy kills but must be applied in the right place over the right distance for the animal. Energy dump is another myth.

First sentence...... Finally somebody gets it. Second sentence........ No, that is the energy lost from the projectile inside the body of the animal thru "work performed". If the projectile exits, it's energy at that time versus the energy on impact is the so called dump you speak of.


I'm not even the least bit surprised that a few feathers get ruffled in a forum like this, but I am a little surprised at the lack of reading comprehension.

What really ticks me off is someone reads a book and BELIEVES he knows everything about the subject and is qualified to teach others what was said. NOT....................

[44man]

First sentence...... Finally somebody gets it. Second sentence........ No, that is the energy lost from the projectile inside the body of the animal thru "work performed". If the projectile exits, it's energy at that time versus the energy on impact is the so called dump you speak of.



What really ticks me off is someone reads a book and BELIEVES he knows everything about the subject and is qualified to teach others what was said. NOT....................
A little problem with the dump thing because a bullet/boolit does not have to stop in game to exert massive destruction. Just because a boolit stops does not mean more damage and any energy left after full penetration also means little as long as the boolt functioned.
Every single rifle bullet made today is a wonder of years and years of work to try for depth or full penetration with damage where needed. It is why there are so many premium bullets.
You have it right comparing but that is not how most see it. They think a bullet that stops has exerted more force because it dumped all inside the animal. There is the myth! Some think energy is lost with full penetration but it amounts to a tinkers dam.
Let me see if I can get all the pictures up. First is a shot behind the shoulder with the .475. Second is the same gun with a deer shot under the chin with penetration out the ham. Is there energy wasted after penetration? Or did the boolit do it's job in both cases? 7898978990

[44man]

Now I shot 3 deer with 240 gr XTP bullets from the .44 and I recovered all three. I seen them fall at around 60 yards each but backtracking showed no blood trails at all. I went to a heavier hard cast and there is blood everywhere and quicker kills. Boolits don't stop and might be in orbit.
Doing a necropsy on each deer showed twice the internal damage from the cast over the "energy dumping XTP."
Guys feel good recovering a bullet thinking it "dumped" everything but that is fairyland.
(What really ticks me off is someone reads a book and BELIEVES he knows everything about the subject and is qualified to teach others what was said. NOT....................) This is the best thing you ever said.

[jmort]

"Boolits don't stop and might be in orbit."

Yes indeed

[dakotashooter2]

****................I should have paid more attention in school..........................

[303Guy]

From the original post (not trying to be contrary here, just trying to make sense of it all and I would welcome y'alls thoughts);
The recurring problem is that many people with good intentions are led to believe the myth that energy somehow equals "Stopping Power"... Far from the truth.My comparison was in support of the above. A 100gr bullet with a smaller diameter but with the same velocity as a 150gr bullet has the same effect on the same sized animal. The bigger and heavier projectile has nearly twice the energy and 50% more momentum.

The original 30-06 example would convince a novice that energy and velocity were indeed key if he saw what the two would do to a goat. Yet such a comparison would be misleading (unless one only wants to shoot goat sized and constructed critters and then not for eating).

I have seen on the same day the difference between a slow 180gr bullet and a fast 150gr bullet. The 150gr caused major meat loss and did not kill the critter while the 180gr put the critter down in 20 paces with zero meat loss. Energy dump was real in this case and was undesirable in my opinion. The bullet did too much work in too short a time.

I have two examples of too much power; antelope shot with 150gr bullets being too fast causing massive bruising near the impact point and burst blood vessels over the rump from a shoulder shot! What I'm suggesting is that energy figures are misleading (again in support of the OP). I think its more about impact velocity than energy. But no work (tissue damage) can be done without bullet energy.

For long dwell time a slower and penetrating bullet is needed and this calls for momentum or one could say, higher energy by way of more mass and less speed. (Just my thoughts).

Something about the difference between a pass through shot and a stopped bullet is the temporary cavity formed at the end of the boolits travel isn't very large. Also, a bullet that stops under the skin expends a lot of energy against the skin. The skin really stretches out before snapping back so a bullet stopped under the skin has not 'dumped' its energy in the animal.


... twice the internal damage from the cast over the "energy dumping XTP.That's interesting. I must say I do have the notion that a boolit stopped in a critter indicates insufficient energy and momentum. I've mentioned the 44 boolit stopping in a bushpig's neck and doing little damage and not killing the critter. The above mentioned 180gr bullet stopped inside the goat - travelled lengthways.

popper, I didn't do relativistic math (the math I did do is long forgotten) so I found that quite interesting (my head still hurts!):mrgreen: I would need a little tutoring to get my head around it I'm afraid but I think I get the jist of it.

[44MAG#1]

Now being honest and objective too what has this thread accomplished? If most that have replied to this thread and the ones who have read it and didn't reply would be honest they will admit that their mind has not been change and they believe the way they want.
No matter what it is that puts an animal down we will agree it is something. Maybe it is the hammer of Thor that pops out of the bullet and clubs the animal to death.
It doesn't matter what it is as long as it does it.
Energy, momentum, TKO or just good ole shot placement it is something.
One thing we know without a bullet and the velocity the animal won't die. And without good shot placement that doesn't work well either.

[45 2.1]

A little problem with the dump thing because a bullet/boolit does not have to stop in game to exert massive destruction. Just because a boolit stops does not mean more damage and any energy left after full penetration also means little as long as the boolt functioned. No problem there as long as you have enough animal to do it in.
You have it right comparing but that is not how most see it. They think a bullet that stops has exerted more force because it dumped all inside the animal. There is the myth! Some think energy is lost with full penetration but it amounts to a tinkers dam. That entirely depends on how much energy or work performed went into the animal.


Now I shot 3 deer with 240 gr XTP bullets from the .44 and I recovered all three. I seen them fall at around 60 yards each but backtracking showed no blood trails at all. I went to a heavier hard cast and there is blood everywhere and quicker kills. Boolits don't stop and might be in orbit. Ok, if you don't hit bone or the CNS, just the heart or lungs, that same hard cast boolit can let the deer run off with NO BLOOD TRAIL at all due to fat from big healthy doe plugging the holes (I found both a week later after it warmed up due to the smell and autopsied them... both had two shots in them, one in heart and one withing three inches). Two of them like that caused me to give up on hard cast (since I really don't like shooting up real meat) and go to expanding HP boolits. None of those shot with HP cast ran very far. My HP's are tailored to deer and smaller game.... and kill them fast with hardly any runoffs.
Doing a necropsy on each deer showed twice the internal damage from the cast over the "energy dumping XTP."
Guys feel good recovering a bullet thinking it "dumped" everything but that is fairyland. I like the ones who think an expanded HP boolit should look like a mushroom.
(What really ticks me off is someone reads a book and BELIEVES he knows everything about the subject and is qualified to teach others what was said. NOT....................) This is the best thing you ever said. Just a rant on the last statement, but true nonetheless.

[cainttype]

It is true that I've been known to read a book... It's an old habit I picked up in the mid 1960s. I can't remember the exact date. I'm guessing it's a habit that might be struggling in modern society when so many are Internet junkies.
I was an avid shooter/reloader/caster by the late seventies. I had arbor presses, single stages, and my first progressive reloader in regular use. They were eventually being fed by large gang moulds from H&G, 8 cavs from Saeco, and a wide assortment of 1, 2, 4, & 6 moulds from both custom and mainstream makers.
I started swaging in the early 80s with my first dedicated horizontal press. The addition of 4 more and dies for .224, .308, .358, & .375 rifle satisfied my needs there.
I've spent countless hours in front of lead pots, sizer/lubricators, and reloading presses. A continuous investment in high production equipment allowed me to spend even more range time helping others and encouraging ther participation in all aspects of the shooting sports.
There are very few "common" bore sizes that I do not cast for and shoot in either rifle or handgun. I have a definite preference for larger bores so nowadays I don't have the urge to cast for anything smaller than 308 rifle or .355 handgun.
I have pushed tons (literally) of lead drownrange, and allowed many others to do the same. That opportunity to participate has created quite a few shooters, some reloaders, and a few casters...no swagers, though. I consider it time well spent.

Anyone here that thinks new-to-the-forum means new-to-the game is making a foolish assumption. I seiously doubt that there are many here with half the trigger-time or lead pouring time as this "reader".

[44MAG#1]

No one said you didn't know anything. I never make assumptions concerning what people know.
But I can tell you this I know the energy, momentum, TKO and a host of other ratings etc. will never be solved by you, me or any other person.
Threads like this are nearly worthless. So many already have their minds made up there is no changing them.
It is what it is.

[44man]

Yes 45, there is always either too little or too much. A full mushroom should not be looked for if it will stop quick.
With lead we can tailor the HP to be just right for the animal and they do work, however the animal on the ground will be the only thing to tell you if you got it right.
I screwed up once with the 45-70 revolver and used a 50-50 HP, oven hardened to 20 BHN, 420 gr. I did it because hard boolits just zipped through deer. I never seen so much damage, lost the whole shoulder on exit and the big doe was bloodshot head to butt. The boolit did not stop either, it is one of those shiny things in the sky! Now it was only going about 1550 to 1600 fps.
Well, so much for that boolit. I still need to figure just what alloy to use next.
The whole point is the hard boolit and the softer one both have the same energy and momentum on paper but there is a world of difference in the field.
Same as the .500 JRH I mentioned. I thought the larger caliber and a little larger meplat with more weight would kill faster at the same speed. "Experts" say it will because the boolit is larger but it is just not so. Yeah, I fell into the trap put into print like a .45 is better then a .44 because it makes a bigger hole. I run my .45 Colt balls to the wall yet the .44 kills better. The .45 needs just a little nose disruption because with the same weight boolits, the .44 is faster. My .44 with a 310 to 330 gr works better then a 335 gr in the .45.
It all sounds so strange to fellows that do not hunt or shoot one deer now and then. They lean towards book figures while we that actually kill a lot of animals see for ourselves.
We actually see that ONE boolit with the same energy, velocity and momentum can be changed to destroy an animal, DRT or a complete loss.
I am not a DRT guy, don't care if a deer runs 20 to 50 yards or more as long as the ground is covered in blood. There is nothing worse then not finding blood.
Even an arrow. I shot a big doe but she jumped the shot and I gut shot her near dark, no blood. It was cold so I went home. Got back at daybreak to find a few spots, then heard crows so I went to the crows and found her dead. Still good and not bloated.

[cainttype]

My Internet skills or rudimentary, at best, so I actually struggle at times with conversation here.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I voiced my opinion, like others here do.
What I do consider to be truths included in the original were, "... that terminal performance, what the projectile actually DOES to the target, determines the appropriate choice for any given application." and "Projectile design and intended application within a given velocity range are the important things to consider." (I apologize about reprinting it, but I can't copy and paste with this game console.)
I think most could at least agree with those statements, regardless how they arrive there.
My intention was to peak the curiosity of new-comers to the hobby and offer alternatives to consider that are often times not widely seen in print... The new generation of readers "with good intentions" who have yet to develop their own opinions.

[mroliver77]

My intention was to peak the curiosity of new-comers to the hobby and offer alternatives to consider that are often times not widely seen in print... The new generation of readers "with good intentions" who have yet to develop their own opinions.

I think you got that gone. If not there is probably little hope for them.
J

[44man]

My Internet skills or rudimentary, at best, so I actually struggle at times with conversation here.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I voiced my opinion, like others here do.
What I do consider to be truths included in the original were, "... that terminal performance, what the projectile actually DOES to the target, determines the appropriate choice for any given application." and "Projectile design and intended application within a given velocity range are the important things to consider." (I apologize about reprinting it, but I can't copy and paste with this game console.)
I think most could at least agree with those statements, regardless how they arrive there.
My intention was to peak the curiosity of new-comers to the hobby and offer alternatives to consider that are often times not widely seen in print... The new generation of readers "with good intentions" who have yet to develop their own opinions.
Yet you hit the nail on the head and it was an excellent post.
It is responsible to lead new to cast away from failure and you brought up something very important.
My deer kills are between 450 and 500 and I still can't tell you what each caliber, weight, alloy or velocity should be. I am only sure with a few guns. I can not or ever will make a blanket statement.
Well, maybe one, don't believe what you read! Throw all the formulas in the trash and go hunting.
The best thing ever said is what the bullet does to the target.

[303Guy]

44man, would you mind sharing those few you are sure of and the size animal?

All I'm looking for is what works and where. I'd also like comparisons of different calibers that work 'the same'. This is for me to gain an understanding. Boolit/bullet design comes into it too.

My example of comparing a 308 to a 22 hornet on turkey tells us nothing of what a 308 can do, only that a smaller bullet with similar velocity that expands faster and does the same 'work' on a smaller, softer target as the larger non expanding bullet. All it means is the two bullets are expending the same amount of energy and has nothing to do with how much energy they start out with (as long as they have more than enough).

[mpmarty]

All I know is I'd rather have my 45/70 in hand than my 22.250 when an angry bruin comes calling.

[44man]

44man, would you mind sharing those few you are sure of and the size animal?

All I'm looking for is what works and where. I'd also like comparisons of different calibers that work 'the same'. This is for me to gain an understanding. Boolit/bullet design comes into it too.

My example of comparing a 308 to a 22 hornet on turkey tells us nothing of what a 308 can do, only that a smaller bullet with similar velocity that expands faster and does the same 'work' on a smaller, softer target as the larger non expanding bullet. All it means is the two bullets are expending the same amount of energy and has nothing to do with how much energy they start out with (as long as they have more than enough).
Mostly muzzle loaders with round balls and revolvers, the .44, .45 and .475. The others still need work. I am not up to speed with rifles using cast but do have a Marlin 30-30 to play with. Problem is my order has been back ordered over 3 months so I will not even have it for deer season.
But the rifle will need the same as the revolver. Just enough upset along with penetration. You just work in a higher velocity range. I am afraid you must still see what happens with the animal.
I am sorry I can't make it easy because it is harder then just shooting any boolit at them.
Work with the gun you use and change RIGHT NOW if one animal gets away or any other wrong thing.
Life was easy with pure lead and BP. I love pure lead but what we use today will not accept it.

[45 2.1]

I love pure lead but what we use today will not accept it.

Jim, you've obviously not heard about paper patching..............................

[303Guy]

Boolit weight and velocity (and nose shape) and the size game taken with them which in your judgement was adequate is all I'm after. Purely an intuitive assessment. It's just that to really get a good feel one needs many shots taken. I know what too much looks like and what just enough does. And that's all.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think ANY of the calculi we use to quantify bullet work accomplished is complete or comprehensive. Terminal ballistics is NOT an exact science, despite what researchers and ballisticians claim or assert. The best we can hope for is to develop an accurate load--place it where it can do the most good--and be ready to re-apply in the event a response is not the expected outcome. To paraphrase Bret 4207, we place far too much emphasis on arrows and far too little on the Indian. Further, as a hunter or defender we cannot have the luxury of looking on and admiring our work--we MUST be fully involved in the stopping process and be fully prepared to continue it if circumstances indicate such a need.

[Lead Fred]

All I know is I'd rather have my 45/70 in hand than my 22.250 when an angry bruin comes calling.

Yea tho I walk though the valley of libtardism, I fear not, My 45/70 comforts me, I shall not want no other.

A 425 WW cast out the barrel @ 1500fps delivers 3600psi in a half in spot, and will turn bowling balls going any speed into Dust
Not to mention ANY varmint 2 or 4 legged that roams north america

[9.3X62AL]

LOL, Lead Fred! There is more potential validity to your text than you may have intended, though.

Many of these formulae we rely upon to predict ballistic outcomes depend upon the squaring of one of the three net values of the ballistic triad--velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. Again, I stress that none of these measures is all-encompassing, and I speak principally of handguns here.......but one of them (Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power) squares a value (frontal area of bullet) that is actually squared in real life, and not as an intellectual exercise. For this reason, I tend to give Hatcher IRSP just a bit more credit for predicting outcomes than other methods. The fact that Hatcher's predictions seem more consistent with real-world results than are other barometers tends to bear this out also. This still doesn't mean that I give full reliance upon Hatcher to predict performance--far from it. I'm a hog, I want it all--all the diameter, weight, and velocity I can reasonably project should the need arise. So, your 45-70 vignette is near and dear to my heart. :)

[44man]

Jim, you've obviously not heard about paper patching..............................
Not in my revolvers!

[1Shirt]

Good and interesting thread. Particularly the comments by 44Man!
1Shirt!

[Pakprotector]

The energy v. momentum thing is rather similar to the HP v. torque comparison. Take two engines of ~160 hp, say a direct injection 2.0L and a 6BT-5.9 Cummins as used in the 1st Gen Dodges...that Cummins will develop much more hp, much more quickly...Power is mass*velocity*acceleration....and it is likely the acceleration we're interested in...LOL Stick a trans behind that 2.0 that will keep it on the boil and it will leave the vehicle accelerating just as fast as one equipped wid the Cummins.

With air guns, the hammer is there to open a valve. Cock the hammer spring and there is a certain amount of energy stored, and this energy will be transferred to the hammer. A heavy hammer will have the same energy as a light one, but the momentum will be radically different. The valve open distance is based on the energy, and its dwell time based on momentum.

The boolit performance is not going to be decently analyzed with a single parameter, and I get rather suspicious of any multi-variable scenario that is argued with just one...:)
cheers,
Douglas

[45 2.1]

Not in my revolvers!

Works fine when you do it right...............

[barrabruce]

My brain hurts!!!!
All I really need to know is a 150 fp going from 1800-2100fps good enough for goats and pigs.
And the same at 8-900 fps not dismember a rabbit.

I guess after shooting both with a 22lr then anything would be more reliable and should go with the accuracy and ease of shooting.

The thing about ballistics that gets me is me thuddy thuddy is only a 150 yrder at best. Right???
But if I shorten it and load lighter projo's to less velocity out of a pistol then it's good to go to 300yds.

I'm working on the more theory.
The more the gun costs the better it is
The more money it cost for a shot the better it is
The more louder it is the more it kills
And becos' I got all this I'm more important than you I'm better'a and more affluent!!!

Problem solved!!!!!

[ku4hx]

Back when I was an immortal and invulnerable young man, I worried about energy, momentum and etc. Being a Physics teacher for a while back then I even taught others to worry about them too.

Now days I'm more into proper gun functioning, accuracy and terminal performance. If my boolit will knock a hole in a piece of paper when I want it to, or humanely and efficiently drop the game animal I'm out to barbeque I'm pretty much satisfied. I do understand the concept of having a cartridge appropriate for the task, but after all these years that's pretty much a no-brainer.

[popper]

The energy v. momentum thing is rather similar to the HP v. torque comparison Not even close. Torque has the same units as energy, power is loosely defined as energy consumed per unit time. HP was originally defined as the a weight a horse could pull. Then it was defined as the frictional force applied to a prony brake on a rotating disk weight. Dynos use the same principle.

[Nobade]

My brain hurts!!!!
All I really need to know is a 150 fp going from 1800-2100fps good enough for goats and pigs.
And the same at 8-900 fps not dismember a rabbit.

I guess after shooting both with a 22lr then anything would be more reliable and should go with the accuracy and ease of shooting.

The thing about ballistics that gets me is me thuddy thuddy is only a 150 yrder at best. Right???
But if I shorten it and load lighter projo's to less velocity out of a pistol then it's good to go to 300yds.

I'm working on the more theory.
The more the gun costs the better it is
The more money it cost for a shot the better it is
The more louder it is the more it kills
And becos' I got all this I'm more important than you I'm better'a and more affluent!!!

Problem solved!!!!!


Hahaha- You have noticed that too huh?

One of my favorite magazine articles told how a 30 carbine, 110 gr at 2200 fps, was useless on anything bigger than mice. The next page told about how the 30 Herrett, 110gr at 2200 fps, would kill anything on land like lightning. But it's shot from a pistol so it's way better. Neat how that works!

-Nobade

[felix]

Popper, you are just TOO official here! The fellows here are using adjectives for well defined nouns. Gotta' play their game to be in the in-crowd. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

Barrabruce--

True that! All of this cal-klatin' just gives me a headache, and much of it serves no no good end other than to stir pots and arguments. I'm still a ballistics hog, though I consent to using 17 HMRs and 22 Hornets on rats and small species. Light-tackle angling "ethics" does not translate well to the game fields, and sure as h--l translates poorly to defensive venues. Fact is, those light-tackle fancies aren't all that sporting and fashionable for fishing, either. Catch-and-release can work in some waters with some species, but the fish world can be a savage place--how much chance does an exhausted yellowtail or tuna have to out-run a sea lion soon after return to the water? I would prefer feeding my family with that fish to feeding pinnipeds, those damn furbags can hustle their own meals AFAIC.

[popper]

OK Felix, I'll let the wives tales continue.

[303Guy]

Does anyone know of tests to determine the energy transferred in a 'typical' pass through shot?

[barrabruce]

Easy 303 do the milk jug test. Say it goes throu 10 whooohooo.

Next place 10 more on the other side of critter and sneak back real carefull as not to alert animal.

Shoot animal and count milk jugs.

Keep loading less powder till to the same amount of milk jugs penetrate.
Shoot the chronograpgh and work out difference.

Next time get a tape and measure to aminal and fire a mangled boolit to get a bettera more finer measurement on the mik jug penetrating.

Corse 'yer gotta have the same condition like how frozen stiff or hot 'n tropical it is.

I don't know if plain milk cartons or falvoured ones 'id make much difference.


But if yu wanna realy know how I do it???
I paint the base of my bullets floro pink. (carefull you don't get any on your fingers as 'yer mates 'll think yer' batting for the other team)

after shooting said animal Just do a CSI stick thing in the now dead critter and with a laser it should point perfectly to the bullet base.

Dig out or probe to get a depth of penetration.

Look up 'er tables you've made while waiting to find something to shoot like.
Dry mud
wet mud
Trees
water tanks
cattle troughs concrete and plastic
Road signs etc etc you get the idea.

Works for me

Barra

[45 2.1]

Does anyone know of tests to determine the energy transferred in a 'typical' pass through shot?

Yes........ here is a synopsis of what happened at one time. A fresh road killed doe was "Found".... about 6-10 hours dead and had stiffened up with a very slight taint smell .... cool night! A friend with an extra chronograph was called to participate. Doe was mounted on a wood beam (in a normal presentation) chained to a tractor 3 point hitch to position it and move it around. One chronograph was placed before the heart lung area and the second was in line on the other side with a large cardboard box of sawdust behind and in line with it. Several loads were tried: 1) Keith solids, 2)HP, 3) different HP. Basically you know the initial weight of the boolit you loaded, the first chrono gives you the impact velocity, the second chrono gives you the exit velocity and you recover the fired boolit from the sawdust to find what is left to weigh. From those you can figure the impact energy and the exit energy from the equations. Results: we found the HPs dumped a heck of a lot more energy into the animal and the exit hole was as big or bigger than the Keith SWC solid. As an aside, I've found the exit holes with HP loads to be the same on deer i've shot while hunting. Sure was dirty and very messy to do...... won't do it again either.

[popper]

When it was still legal, I shot 3# rabbits in the yard with a plain 8 gr pellet. Sometimes they would flop, sometimes hop, hop, hop, flop. Never did track any, no blood trail, no screams. Never bothered to see where I hit them, just iron sights @ 50'. None lived more than 15 sec. Not an elk for sure but if you've ever cut their hide, it's tougher than mine. Animal weight/CB weight is about the same if you discount the gut of a 160# deer. That's all I know about terminal effects.

[JohnH]

Same old debate about 1950-60s torque versus horsepower. Back then "love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage" went as well. Today, anything and everything goes!!! ... felix Yep. Horsepower is a theoretical number arrived at by multiplying the torque by the rpm torque was produced at then dividing by the constant 5252 (IIRC) Horsepower was originally a sales gimmick used by the father of the steam engine (Stephen Fulton was it???) as a means to describe how much work his engine could do. One horsepower is the energy required to lift 33,000 pounds, one foot, in one minute... I said all that to say this...Felix is right, some of this is little more than a way of describing an observed phenomenon. Our description may or may not have a lot to do with reality, but the description is at least constant so that we can agree or disagree on our observations. The problem with converting descriptions of physics and the interactions of mass and velocity to what happens when high speed flying objects hit flesh and bone is that animals don't react in the same manner that steel plates do.

There are limits to all things. 3 pound prairie dogs hit with 6mm 85 grain bullets launched at 3200 FPS from 100 yards explode. I've had 130 pound doe look up from eating acorns, look around, go back to eating and trot off some 30 yards before tipping over after being hit by the same combination. I wouldn't shoot a 500 pound elk with that load though at 50 yards, I've no doubt whatever that a 250 grain boolit from a 44 Magnum at an MV of 1300 fps would cleanly kill that elk. Is it all about velocity? Bullet construction? Momentum? Lewis and Clarks men killed black bear readily with their 50 cal muzzleloaders. The brown bears they tried them out on didn't seem to have the same respect for load.

I've wandered a bit. I've always wanted to make a falling/self resetting set of swingers, knowing that making it work would be little more than figuring out the math of bullet weight, velocity, range, target weight. A set of plates, one falls and resets (stands up) the other should be simple math. I don't think the four-leggeds know math, they sure don't act it.

[303Guy]

I've heard of this going back to feeding after looking around but not with an explosive high speed bullet. The animal doesn't seem to hear the shot. It detects something which it can't identify but is completely unaware of being shot in the heart.

Anyway, that same 6mm bullet in the shoulder may behave quite differently, particularly in a large deer while a heart lung shot would still take it down. There has to be a way of putting it all into meaningful numbers, empirical as would have to be.

[jonp]

This is all very interesting but I think I missed one point that no-one brought up. We are not talking about inanimate objects when speaking of "stopping power". We are talking about living things and the mass of what we are shooting in and systemic shock play caused by the pressure wave plays a large if not most important role in this.
TKO is a good comparison of different projectiles as we have to start somewhere. It's not perfect but it does work ok if you keep in mind what you are trying to do.

The talk of velocity brings to mind Mr. Weatherby and his building a company based on the belief that small bullet traveling very fast worked quite well if the bullet was properly constructed.

Here is an interesting paper on the subject not of the bullet itself but more importantly the pressure wave caused by the projectile: http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.3053
and a nice picture demonstrating this:
79382

[jonp]

Does anyone know of tests to determine the energy transferred in a 'typical' pass through shot?

Try this. I did not see anyone mention this and am surprised. The infamous Strasbourg Goat Tests caused quite the controversy in not only the testing method but the role pressure waves play in incapacitation of the target.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublicatio n%2F2178261_Ballistic_pressure_wave_contributions_ to_rapid_incapacitation_in_the_Strasbourg_goat_tes ts%2Ffile%2Fd912f5092893cd7a88.pdf&ei=wksPUvPdM4Wd2gWLxYCgBQ&usg=AFQjCNEN3p7zZWyN1-FkjoRvdLc2fhhDBQ&bvm=bv.50768961,d.b2I

[truckjohn]

In the end.. A lot of studies have been done....
The Permanent wound channel in vascular or central nervous tissue is the part that matters.....

"Energy" is only useful so long as it creates a sufficient permanent wound channel.....

Momentum is only useful so long as it creates sufficient penetration and permanent wound channel....

and it all counts on someone doing the aiming properly....

The sunshine on your roof may have plenty of energy... A bowling ball rolled by a kid may have plenty of momentum... but neither creates a large, permanent wound channel...

[Smoke4320]

In the end.. A lot of studies have been done....
The Permanent wound channel in vascular or central nervous tissue is the part that matters.....

"Energy" is only useful so long as it creates a sufficient permanent wound channel.....

Momentum is only useful so long as it creates sufficient penetration and permanent wound channel....

and it all counts on someone doing the aiming properly....

The sunshine on your roof may have plenty of energy... A bowling ball rolled by a kid may have plenty of momentum... but neither creates a large, permanent wound channel...

Well said ..
it comes down to proper shot placement, bullet construction to do the proper large, permanent wound channel... at the distance live target presents itself

[44man]

Well said ..
it comes down to proper shot placement, bullet construction to do the proper large, permanent wound channel... at the distance live target presents itself
Very simple, very true.

[303Guy]

The results of the Strasbourg Goat Tests and gelatin tests are interesting. It seems that heavier, slower projectiles have potentially more destructive effects. The first number is velocity and the others are volumes, pressures, distance and such.

79418

This is a recurring theme over several pistol calibers. Interesting. But bullet construction and form play a major role it seems - no surprise there.
The only anomaly I saw in the table was the 45 ACP with a 185 gr bullet as being better than the heavier bullet.

Anyway, it seems this study was quite comprehensive with actual pressures and incapacitation times being measured and so on.

I have read of brain damage from body shots in a discussion of autopsy reports.

I think we've all seen the video of a 45/70 dropping a zebra. That paper explains it I think. I've seen a goat being disembowelled by a chest shot from a 22-250. No pulping of the internal organs, just bursting the skin and all the innards popping out.

[dverna]

44man speaks with with a wealth of experience based on low velocity projectiles in large calibers. And there is no doubt these are formidable killers. But he admits to having limited experience with rifle bullets.

There are shock effects and "tumbling" created by high velocity bullets that affect terminal ballistics.

In the end - dead is dead. How we get there may be a circuitous route, but the end point is the same. I am equally fearful of a 1 oz 12 ga slug at 1400fps as I am of a .30 cal 180 gr bullet at 2400 fps - at close range it will not matter much. But if the guy shooting at me is at 200 yards I hope he is using the shotgun. And retained energy or momentum has little to do with it.

Don Verna

[lwknight]

Here is the real formulae.
1. Bullet too short = disassemble quarry @ short range and fail to perform at long range.
2. Right bullet = good kill at short range and good kill at long range.
3. Bullet too long = good kill at short range and fall to earth too fast at long range.
4. Big bullet for big game.
5. Smaller bullet for smaller game.

Anything else i just a hazy shade of grey.

[waksupi]

Here is the real formulae.
1. Bullet too short = disassemble quarry @ short range and fail to perform at long range.
2. Right bullet = good kill at short range and good kill at long range.
3. Bullet too long = good kill at short range and fall to earth too fast at long range.
4. Big bullet for big game.
5. Smaller bullet for smaller game.

Anything else i just a hazy shade of grey.

I kinda question #3. BC kicks in and they carry pretty good. Look at the 160 gr. in a 6.5X55. I'm also amazed at how well long range accuracy holds up with a 290 gr. in the .358 Win.

[lwknight]

I kinda question #3. BC kicks in and they carry pretty good. Look at the 160 gr. in a 6.5X55. I'm also amazed at how well long range accuracy holds up with a 290 gr. in the .358 Win.

Hey, thats just me taking a cheap shot at a ridiculous argument.
There is a lot of grey in that.

[Elkins45]

I'm amazed this thread hasn't completely deteriorated into a #*&^ing match after 4 pages, which is a testament to the generally high quality of the Cast Boolits membership. Other forums I participate in would have not been so civil.

Wounding kills, and there is more than one mechanism by which a projectile can effect a wound. Slow, heavy bullets and lightly constructed speedy ones tend to effect wounding in different ways, but as long as vital structures are disrupted either can result in a fast death. Sir Newton teaches us there's only so much energy in a gunshot, and that we can feel exactly how much every time we pull the trigger...the energy carried by the bullet is exactly equal to the recoil energy absorbed by the shooter. This demonstrates that the game animal sized body of the shooter can repeatedly absorb such doses of energy to his shoulder without much more than a bruise.

The trick is to find a way to allow that relatively small amount of energy to do the necessary work of shocking the nervous system or disrupting the circulatory system of the animal on the receiving end. Some favor the approach of blowing a large diameter hole through the parts with a slow, heavy bullet, others favor a light, fast bullet that expands or fragments.

I have killed probably 50 whitetails over the last 20+ years. About half have been killed with heart/lung shots using a 50 caliber muzzleloader shooting a 300+ grain pure cast lead projectile. Discounting the one I shot in the spine, not a single one of them was DRT. One small doe had her lungs torn to bits and managed to run over 200 yards onto the neighboring property. The other half have been killed with modern expanding bullets from either a 270 or 257 Weatherby mag. About half of that half dropped within a step of where they were standing and I have never seen one that was bloodshot outside of the small area of the entrance or exit wound. The muzzleloader projectile carries at least 600 ft/lbs more kinetic energy than the centerfire rifle does, but my experiences have shown that deer shot with the centerfire rifle die faster.

Energy is a necessary component, because without kinetic energy the bullet will never leave the muzzle...and what happens when it gets to the animal is dependent on a whole bunch of factors. So energy is important, but it's not the ONLY thing that's important.

[303Guy]

Actually, it's not the bullet energy that equals recoil energy but rather the momentum (bullet plus ejecta). Close enough for all intents and purposes though.

I did a simple calculation (check me if I got it all wrong);

recoil momentum = (11.66 g bullet + 2.72 g ejecta) X 700 m/s = 10.07 kgm/s
recoil velocity = 10.07 kgm/s ÷ 3.6 kg rifle = 2.8 m/s
recoil energy = 2.8² X 10.07 ÷ 2 = 39.5 J (29 ftlb)
bullet energy = 700² X 0.01166 ÷ 2 = 2857 J (2107 ftlb)

The impact from a 3.6 kg (8lb) gun hitting the shoulder at 2.8 m/s (7.2fps) is quite significant.

[45 2.1]

The impact from a 3.6 kg (8lb) gun hitting the shoulder at 2.8 m/s (7.2fps) is quite significant.

That would be an uncommon thing.............

[jonp]

Actually, it's not the bullet energy that equals recoil energy but rather the momentum (bullet plus ejecta). Close enough for all intents and purposes though.

I did a simple calculation (check me if I got it all wrong);

recoil momentum = (11.66 g bullet + 2.72 g ejecta) X 700 m/s = 10.07 kgm/s
recoil velocity = 10.07 kgm/s ÷ 3.6 kg rifle = 2.8 m/s
recoil energy = 2.8² X 10.07 ÷ 2 = 39.5 J (29 ftlb)
bullet energy = 700² X 0.01166 ÷ 2 = 2857 J (2107 ftlb)

The impact from a 3.6 kg (8lb) gun hitting the shoulder at 2.8 m/s (7.2fps) is quite significant.

Several years ago I did an article for a magazine about calculating recoil velocity and modifying the equations to a more easily worked method. The standard equations are well known and work quite well. It should be one of the things you take with you into a store when eying that new ultra mangle-um. Figure out the recoil for a favorite rifle and loading and then compare it to the prospective purchase. If 16lbs of recoil is about all you care for then buying a rifle that has 40lbs will guarantee one that looks great in your gun case and one you don't shoot enough to become good at.

[Nobade]

Several years ago I did an article for a magazine about calculating recoil velocity and modifying the equations to a more easily worked method. The standard equations are well known and work quite well. It should be one of the things you take with you into a store when eying that new ultra mangle-um. Figure out the recoil for a favorite rifle and loading and then compare it to the prospective purchase. If 16lbs of recoil is about all you care for then buying a rifle that has 40lbs will guarantee one that looks great in your gun case and one you don't shoot enough to become good at.

No way! Just go buy the biggest baddest thing they tell you to buy! I sell a lot of muzzle brakes that way. The Remington Ultramags have been great for business, as have 5 lb. 300 WSM rifles!

-Nobade

[jonp]

No way! Just go buy the biggest baddest thing they tell you to buy! I sell a lot of muzzle brakes that way. The Remington Ultramags have been great for business, as have 5 lb. 300 WSM rifles!

-Nobade
lol, I got a nice, barely used Browning 10guage like that. I was in the lgs looking at pistols and a couple of kids came in. They were going duck hunting and were convinced that only a 10g would do. The salesguy kinda rolled his eyes but sold them the shotgun. I watched them walk out and told the guy I'd be back next Saturday to buy it used and to hold it for me and sure enough the next Saturday when I walked in the guy pulled it out from behind him and said "here ya go"!

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think the "problem" is so much with the firearms or their ammunition per se, but with our expectations that in-field results will closely and consistently jibe with formulaic predictions. It's just a fact of life, and our expectations of Hatcher, Taylor, and Fackler need to be leavened with reality.

[303Guy]

I think of the 30-06 with heavy bullets as being a 'big gun'. I can handle 375 H&H - it's got more of a push. To me the 308/303 class cartridge is just fine, better with a suppressor aka muzzle brake. I even like my 25-303 with a break (mind you, there's not much difference between the 303 and the 25 when they both have suppressors/breaks.

Looking at barrel whip, why do we bother to straighten barrels? Other than to bring the POI into the range of the scope or iron sights? Mind you, a bent barrel might increase the whip and vibration magnitude.

[jonp]

I had great luck with a pre64 Model 70 300 H&H Mag I picked up from a guy in Canada a number of years ago. It was about enough for me

[cbdb]

Here's something nobody ever talks about: think about what happens when the bullet hits the beast. Total energy is conserved, but a lot of it gets converted into other forms of energy. Some of it goes to push stuff around in every direction, and some of it gets turned into other forms like heat. On the other hand, Total momentum is conserved too, but momentum doesn't change into anything else--it's always momentum, and in the direction the bullet was moving. That's why the TKO or other momentum-type calculations are more useful for hunters.

[303Guy]

A fellow hunter once told me of his encounter in a fire fight. This AK wielding combatant shot him and he went down and the combatant stood over him and fired two more shots into his chest. He described them as being "like being hit by a hammer". I would think that was hydraulic shock. Obviously not enough. He did not elaborate on the extent of the injuries nor whether the bullets passed right through or not. I can't see three bullets stopping in a man's chest and not killing him.

[44MAG#1]

Here is my post #11:
This going to be an argument that will never solve anything other than just to garner a huge number of post.
There will be people that will believe in energy and/or momentum, Taylor Knock Out value and maybe a number of other things.
There will be no changing most of them.
1/2mass (in pounds) times velocity squared divided by 32.1740 equals energy or velocity squared divided by 450436 times bullet weight equals energy.
And no I don't want to know that mass cannot be weighed because mass will have Newtonian weight which is derived from kilograms so it can be weighed to get the kilograms to get Newtonian weight. Pounds can be derived from kilograms and vise versa. So, lets don't go there.
Again what difference does all this make as long as the guy hunting gets his game regardless of what kills it.

Now I will ask again:
Again what difference does all this make as long as the guy hunting gets his game regardless of what kills it.

[44man]

Where I fall down with rifles is with cast. Never worked on a deer boolit and I have a 30-30 I will as soon as my mold gets here. I have shot a lot of deer with rifles but used jacketed.
I shot a 200# doe on a dead run at 220 yards with a .280, she made 100 yards and was a total mess, took out lungs and heart but the bloodshot meat was just too much so I sold my friend the Remington.
The best was my 6.5 Swede, best yet so will never part with it even though I use revolvers. For around here the Swede and a 30-30 is the best. I shot a few with the .44 mag lever gun using cast but could not stand the twist so I sold it.
The most important question right now is where did the year go?

[303Guy]

44MAG#1, it is an unanswered question but more importantly is a discussion of that unanswered question with personal views and experience being offered all of which helps build an understanding of what's happening. I started out thinking a 30 cal had to be heavy and had to expand. Experienced hands are educating me and helping to moderate my conceived notions. It was from them I came to realise what velocity range is required for a cast boolit. 1800 to 2000 fps with a heavy-ish 30 cal (I'm still in the heavy mindset but not as heavy as before) with a wide flat nose. I've also learned something about alloy requirements. But in this thread I've mostly enjoyed the discussion. Quite a few new to me ideas have emerged making it informative and thought provoking. 44mans post above is an example.

[waksupi]

44MAG#1, to be it is an unanswered question but more importantly is a discussion of that unanswered question with personal views and experience being offered all of which helps build an understanding of what's happening. I started out thinking a 30 cal had to be heavy and had to expand. Experienced hands are educating me and helping to moderate my conceived notions. It was from them I came to realise what velocity range is required for a cast boolit. 1800 to 2000 fps with a heavy-ish 30 cal (I'm still in the heavy mindset but not as heavy as before) with a wide flat nose. I've also learned something about alloy requirements. But in this thread I've mostly enjoyed the discussion. Quite a few new to me ideas have emerged making it informative and thought provoking. 44mans post above is an example.

It's what makes this board work. We have found so many falsehoods about cast bullets since this bunch got together, it would be silly to think there will not be more break throughs. But you have to discuss the nebulous to discover the possible.

[44MAG#1]

The OP was discussing energy and then interjected momentum. Still we don't know what it is since no one knows. That was what I was eluding too. I stand by what I previously said. This is a subject that no one will be able to answer to satisfy the majority of shooters of cast of or jacketed.
Is anyone know please enlighten all of us dense individuals. Is energy figures more important or momentum or TKO (remembering Taylor had his enlightened formulation based on FMJ'S and not expanding bullets) or is Veral Smiths displacement velocity formulation correct or is it some black magic concocted by the proper bullet combined with a decent velocity combined with good shot placement?
No matter what it is if something works it works no matter what it is called or how it is figured.
It really doesn't matter what one calls it or believes what it is it is what it is and evidentially no one knows what it is or what part of the cosmose it comes from.
I'll tell you this it is a combination of bullet and velocity because one without the other is not worth a tinkers darn.

[singleshot]

It's what makes this board work. We have found so many falsehoods about cast bullets since this bunch got together, it would be silly to think there will not be more break throughs. But you have to discuss the nebulous to discover the possible.

Best post on the whole thread! Not that other posts didn't get the brain juices flowing mind you...

[singleshot]

Now I will ask a question that has an answer and is completely relevant to this thread:
What is the speed of sound (average) in a "typical" critter? If you're striking the critter at or above that velocity, one set of principles apply. If you're striking the critter below that velocity, another set of principles apply.

This factor is DIRECTLY related to destruction of flesh, which is ultimately what matters.

[44MAG#1]

What is the speed of sound (average) in a "typical" critter? If you're striking the critter at or above that velocity, one set of principles apply. If you're striking the critter below that velocity, another set of principles apply.

This factor is DIRECTLY related to destruction of flesh, which is ultimately what matters.

Now we are getting somewhere.
Is the animal old, young, fat, standing on all fours or laying down? Is if the full of the moon or the dark of the moon?
Does it have a lot of hair or balding like me?
All of this may make a difference but since you are asking about the average speed would we not not need and average animal?
Would he have weight in Newtons or Kilograms.
I don't know really.

[303Guy]

Shock waves propagate through homogeneous soft tissue with a 1500 m/s with only little distortion.Speed of sound in air is around 340 m/s at sea level.


Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.


hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact. [1][2] There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects.

This doesn't answer the question as it doesn't tell us what velocity is required to produce this effect. The 9x19 pistol round is mentioned. Another article uses a heave 10 m/s moving object as an example of speed of penetrator wave.


The ballistic impact of - compared to shock waves - slowly 10 m/s) generates pressure pulses at the surface the body which = moving missile

That's 33 fps.

P.S. No-one is dense here. :drinks:

[cainttype]

The inclusion of the reference to momentum at the end of the original post was to offer any newcomer to the shooting/reloading hobby an alternative concrete example to explore and consider on it's own merits, one they very well might not find in most popular gun rags. Seasoned veterans will already have their own ideas, for their own reasons.
The following observations are also intended for interested newcomers, many veterans are already familiar with each scenario...

barrabruce mentions the ill treatment of his 30-30 rifle compared to shortened pistol hunting calibers with lightweight projectiles. I'll be using the 30 Herrett as an example that is obviously under-powered when compared to it's parent cartridge, the 30-30.
The Herrett's early success on smaller medium game was achieved using lightweight .308 bullets (mostly 110, and eventually 125 grain) that would explode on varmits from a 30-06 at 3000+ fps. The Herret's reduced impact velocities allowed the bullets to remain intact to penetrate vitals with good placement up to 200+ yards, although that's a pretty good stretch under field conditions for most shooters. While the little Herret is considered obsolete by many, it was a major influence in popularizing both single-shot handguns and "long range" handgun hunting.
It's a good example of projectile design, impact velocity, and intended application... The 30-30 from a rifle easily has more downrange potential.

My local deer population is not generally very large-bodied, and the 30-30 is encountered as often as any other cartridge.
It's common to find hunters disparaging the 180 gr factory J-bullet loads. Many have stories of marginal hits requiring long tracking sessions, minimal blood loss, and wounded beasts requiring follow-up shots. The bullets simply fail to upset or tumble to create a sufficient wound channel on a fairly regular basis, instead punching small through-and-through holes that often leave little evidence of a blood trail.
On the other hand, friends hunting Moose in Maine and Newfoundland have used the exact same load for generations with total satisfaction. The larger animal's body mass creates the conditions the load requires to cause substantial upset and deep, effective wound channels.
The older 180s were too heavily constructed for rapid expansion at 30-30 velocities in these smaller deer. Thinner jackets and/or more exposed soft lead to initiate upset could be a possible cure... It's performance is simply a product of it's design.

Casters today have a wide variety of mould designs to choose from, better and more varied than ever before. A proper, carefully chosen design will provide a lifetime of enjoyment and success.
The availability of custom mould manufacturers today could only be dreamed of not that long ago. Their skills and dedication bring the sport/hobby to a whole new level.
Never before were knowledge bases like this site so easily accessible, and I'd like to thank those that keep it running.
I'm glad I lived to see it.

[pmer]

In the old days wasn't there testing done with boolits hitting a long swinging plate? Seems like I saw a picture and it had a tape or something on it to measure how far the plate swung.

In a 2013 Winchester ammo catalog there is a section on "shooting myths and misconseptions". "A 180 grain 300 mag making 3600 lbs of energy should lift a 50 pound object 70 feet but it won't." It goes on and says its far better to have the right bullets making physical trauma off the nose and the creation of radial pressure waves in the animal (paraphrased). And so thats why they provide a wide range of bullets for different shooter's needs like bonded and HP game bullets ETC.

I still think muzzle energy is neat way to compare cartridges but when I have a serious thought about what a projectile could do I break out the TKO calculator.

[cainttype]

The pendulum test has been used just as you describe, pmer.
I'd say a modern variation on the old pendulum test is pretty popular today... Metallic Silhouette.
I haven't shot silhouette but know there are some very accomplished, experienced MS shooters frequenting this site. Several manufacturers offer bullets specifically designed for the sport.
Access to the variety of projectiles available today is a blessing. Everything from true bonded core bullets to heavy-weight specialty cast boolits can be easily obtained. The big guys in manufacturing (Federal, Remington, and Winchester) didn't exactly lead the way, but actually joined in offering "premium" designs when they saw smaller specialists develope a real market.
The variety of options has never been better.

[44MAG#1]

Now with such compelling and thought provoking written narrative how would one describe to a newbie what power is and how is it rated and ranked and with what method is the answer that would be given derived?

[pmer]

Yeah, I could see myself making a pendulum sometime.

There does seem to be something missing in the crunching of the numbers. Maybe if somehow the weight of the animal can figured in along with the toughness of the projectile. Like a value for the effort required to press a bullet to .4 of its length and something for animals 5 - 45 lbs, 45 - 130 lbs, 130 - 210 lbs etc.

And as far as the TKO of a bowling ball being so high, the common sense of validity makes me throw out the idea. But if that bowling ball rolled off the hot tin roof and free fell to the ground - well.. I wouldn't want my chest where it landed and I didn't need math figure that out.

[pmer]

Now with such compelling and thought provoking written narrative how would one describe to a newbie what power is and how is it rated and ranked and with what method is the answer that would be given derived?

To a newbie, I'd say the power is what feel on your shoulder then Nobade, can sell another muzzle brake LOL. For your newbie I think plain old ME is fine. If he/she wants to think in more precise terms its out there for them to discover.

[cainttype]

For a newer enthusiast;
There is no totally satisfactory formula to predict "Stopping Power". The important points to consider were addressed in the original post... projectile design, intended application, and expected impact velocity.

Foremost... shot placement. Use a load combination that you shoot well and can place where you need too.
Projectiles perform differently depending on their construction/design, target mass and density, and the impact velocity. A soft-nose that performs perfectly at 2000 fps could disintegrate at 2500, or fail to expand at 1500.
It's my opinion that a load combination which fails to reliably penetrate completely through the intended quarry with an optimum shot angle is a poor choice. I'm not interested in the DRT effects that a sizzling small-bore can accomplish by blowing up without exiting on a broadside shot, "dumping" all of it's energy. I consider that type of performance perfect examples of high-energy projectile failures. I've known quite a few wasted deer over the years because the shooter didn't find blood (sometimes when the animal went down before running off) and decided he must have missed, only to find the carcass later. The fact that the same combination might have previously dropped a dozen animals in their tracks never impressed me.
Generally speaking, the lightest weight projectiles in any given caliber, pushed hard, will generate the highest energy figures. These are also the bullets most likely to fail. If a load combo can't penetrate completely from a good angle it has no chance of reaching the vitals with a quartering shot.
I do follow the concept that in general terms momentum is a better qualifier in load choice when comparing projectiles of identical caliber, with the exceptions of varminting and pelt hunting (again, this should NOT be construed as "Stopping Power"). I want a combination that will reach the vitals from any angle I choose to shoot from, and that momentum number will generally improve with heavier bullets in any cartridge, handgun or rifle, while energy figures drop.. Once that criteria is met there is no need to go further.
Yes, lots of medium game can be killed with a 22 RF, and lots of people are capable of using light-weight frangibles and waiting for the perfect shot, but we're addressing the kind of advice we should offer a newcomer. They are the most likely to rush a shot, to be too excited or impatient. A failure in the field can discourage a youngster to the point of losing interest, but success brings enthusiasm and has no substitute.
The original post was not an attempt to define what "Stopping Power" is, it's my opinion on what it isn't.

[pmer]

Fixing the prediction of stopping power

Okay so lets say we can take the Taylor KO formula and add an simple up and down ratio factoring bullet strength and game weight. Using the TKO value and then multiplying bullet strength followed by dividing animal weight.

Bullet strength.value
Light varmint .2
Varmint .4
Light game .6
Med. Game .8
Locked core 1.0
Bonded core 1.2
Solid 1.4

Animal Weight value
30 pounds .2
60 pounds .4
100 pounds .6
160 pounds .8
230 pounds 1.0
350 pounds 1.2
500 pounds 1.4


Bare in mind I’m not a math guy or ballistics pro. These values are totally made up from thin air. The object of the math is having the same TKO value before and after doing this formula.

Lets say someone has an 30-30, 170 grain jacketed flat point and it is shooting 2100 FPS. Taylor KO = 16. Lets further agree it has an Bullet Strength Value (BSV) of .8 and he finds a nice 180 lb buck with an Animal Weight Value (AWV) of .8

16* .8 BSV / .8 AWV = 16 Just multiplying and dividing the same ratio comes out with the same TKO. BUT lets say he uses a lighter constructed bullet and you can see the TKO value ends up being less..

16* .6 BSV divided by same .8 AWV = 12 showing a reduced value from the original 16

Lets say he has a chance for black bear and has a 350 lb blackie clawing the tree he’s in BUT he has his first 30-30 load with a TKO of 16

16* .8 BSV / 1.2 AWV = 10.6 IF there was a way to quantify bullet strength I think I can say this shows an reduced effectiveness from using a bullet that is better suited for lighter game. Incidentally 10.6 is a TKO for a 180 grain .357 revolver. Would a 30-30 with poor bullet choice match a 357 hand gun in the field on game? I think it would.

I think this proves a couple things. I can write fiction based on theory and nothing good happens after midnight.

[44MAG#1]

"Foremost... shot placement. Use a load combination that you shoot well and can place where you need too."

So what you're saying is that an excellent shooter like someone like WDM"Karamojo" Bell could turn the 7X57 Mauser into an elephant rifle where a bad shooter could turn a 458 Lott into a pipsqueak?

[45 2.1]

"Foremost... shot placement. Use a load combination that you shoot well and can place where you need too."

So what you're saying is that an excellent shooter like someone like WDM"Karamojo" Bell could turn the 7X57 Mauser into an elephant rifle where a bad shooter could turn a 458 Lott into a pipsqueak?

Give the man a cigar... he got it. Knowing where to put a boolit and how that particular boolit should work is the other half of that.

[44MAG#1]

Now if we can just get it figured out why we have energy, momentum and Taylor Knock Out values and a host of other things that try to indicated power we would have it made.

[35remington]

The "why" of energy calculation is based on sound principles of physics that cannot be refuted. The energy calculation in terms of describing what happens, whether it be speeding car, spaceship, or bullet, accurately describes a measurable quantity. Energy calculations are used every day in solving problems relating to travel or distance. Momentum is much the same, except momentum may offer a skewed perspective into what's actually happening in terms of small, high speed objects versus large, slow ones.

So the "constant resurgence" of the energy calculation is no myth and should come as no surprise to anyone. If you want to argue its overall validity in terms of science, you'd utterly and completely lose if you take a contrarian position. It has greater bona fides than any calculation that would replace it, and it is, in fact, irreplaceable. That's why it's still around.

What we mostly argue about is how that energy is distributed upon the impact of the bullet. Fat bullet or skinny? Fragile or nonexpanding? Fast or slow? Now we're involving a living target, and opinions vary upon performance of said projectile.

We don't argue at all about the fact that said energy is there. That part is well settled.

[jonp]

"Foremost... shot placement. Use a load combination that you shoot well and can place where you need too."

So what you're saying is that an excellent shooter like someone like WDM"Karamojo" Bell could turn the 7X57 Mauser into an elephant rifle where a bad shooter could turn a 458 Lott into a pipsqueak?
That and Karamojo had one giant pair

[BNE]

I really appreciated this discussion. I have reloaded for 14 years and I somehow have managed to memorize the "typical" velocity and weight for all of the calibers I reload. Just yesterday I started to look up and compare the muzzle energy of the calibers I make. This dscussion has saved me a LOT of time. It sounds like one more thing people will argue about.

Thanks folks. - BNE

[303Guy]

Bullet strength.value
Light varmint .2
Varmint .4
Light game .6
Med. Game .8
Locked core 1.0
Bonded core 1.2
Solid 1.4

Animal Weight value
30 pounds .2
60 pounds .4
100 pounds .6
160 pounds .8
230 pounds 1.0
350 pounds 1.2
500 pounds 1.4
Seems like a good start. I'm not sure I'd use TKO as the basis though. I think I'd go right back to basics and use energy figure, a proportion of momentum and the above factors. I'd use as many known to be good or reliable animal weight and caliber killing ability to establish a base line and develop from there. It would take quite a bit of empirical data and judgement. Mind you, it might just end up as a modified TKO as proposed.

How do OGW, TKO and KTF compare with each other in real life experiences?

[cainttype]

The "why" of energy calculation is based on sound principles of physics that cannot be refuted. The energy calculation in terms of describing what happens, whether it be speeding car, spaceship, or bullet, accurately describes a measurable quantity. Energy calculations are used every day in solving problems relating to travel or distance. Momentum is much the same, except momentum may offer a skewed perspective into what's actually happening in terms of small, high speed objects versus large, slow ones.

So the "constant resurgence" of the energy calculation is no myth and should come as no surprise to anyone. If you want to argue its overall validity in terms of science, you'd utterly and completely lose if you take a contrarian position. It has greater bona fides than any calculation that would replace it, and it is, in fact, irreplaceable. That's why it's still around.

What we mostly argue about is how that energy is distributed upon the impact of the bullet. Fat bullet or skinny? Fragile or nonexpanding? Fast or slow? Now we're involving a living target, and opinions vary upon performance of said projectile.

We don't argue at all about the fact that said energy is there. That part is well settled.


Of course energy is there. Both energy AND momentum are valid, well established, and measurable.
Calculations for momentum are no more "skewed" in favor of heavy-weight projectiles than the calculations for energy are "skewed" favoring light-weights in any cartridge available. Describing one as possibly "skewed" and touting the other as fact seems skewed to me. Both can be considered relevant, but the question at hand is their ability to help a neophyte to choose a proper load combination for a cartridge he's going to reload for, or possibly consider as a purchase.
The highest energy figures will invaribly be attained with lighter projectiles while the highest momentum figures will be found in the heaviest of any cartridge. Energy, momentum, and TKO caculators are easily found on the Internet to illustrate this simple observation.
If we use the 30-06 as an example and compare a 125 gr @ 3334 fps to a 200 gr @ 2546 the energy figures favor the 125 gr projectile with 3084 ft lbs while the 200 gr comes in at 2546 ft lbs. Momentum figures favor the 200 gr with 68 compared to the 125 gr at 59.
If the reloader is requiring a bullet that either penetrates well or maintains it's "power" at extended ranges, was energy a better qualifier?... Absolutly not. Would momentum have been a better insight?... Of course it was.
Oddly enough, while the neophyte is constantly reminded about energy, energy, energy and the subject suddenly becomes a quest for better penetration or long range efficiency the answer is projectiles with higher sectional density... Wait a minute, higher SD means heavier-for-caliber projectiles. The SAME projectiles that will post higher momentum figures and less energy than their lighter-weight counterparts in any given cartridge when driven to the cartridges full potential... Seems a little disingenuous to me.
If that can even remotely be considered as an arguement I'd suggest to any newcomer to pick their cartridge of choice, select a few loads in different weights, and punch the numbers. Don't take anybody's opinion as the final word, learning and developing your own thoughts is inevitable as you're exposed to more ideas. It's what this site is all about.

[fouronesix]

:):) No mystery why there is and probably always will be confusion about energy. It took hundreds of years for the most brilliant minds to finally describe it mathematically. Even then the concept is not intuitive and its understanding will likely forever escape many. Conversely, momentum is intuitive. Both are very real but very different- let the confusion continue :)

[45 2.1]

Static equations tell you little about a dynamic situation. Each phase of deformation/penetration needs a separate set of equations to describe what is happening. The only thing that actually shows you something is a gel block showing the permanent cavity disruption from the projectile.

[35remington]

CT, of course momentum is skewed in calculating lethality of a bullet. If it was not a bowling ball would be more lethal than a 30-06. Bumping into a deer with a wheelbarrow would kill it DRT.

The minimum requirement is some amount of velocity, so the energy equation models this somewhat better than momentum does. Squaring velocity's contribution is not far fetched as an idea when relating to objects that require speed to be lethal.

Momentum becomes nonsensical fast and poorly describes the lethality of light high speed objects, which is what bullets are. Bullets derive their lethality from speed in a very important sense and some on this thread misleadingly try to ignore that essential fact.

It ain't energy alone. But everything else is utter nonsense without it.

[popper]

energy figure, a proportion of momentum Why? You can calculate the chemical energy in the powder, a % gets transferred to the boolit. That causes velocity on a boolit of some mass. That boolit has an energy of 1/2MV^2 ( yes the 1/2 is there but a constant, who cares) and a Momentum of MV. There is nothing you or I can do to change that. Now show me a useful calculation that uses momentum? Now show me a device that measures momentum, please? Pmer's chart, if tested, would be a good indicator. Isn't that what the TKO formula is about?

[44MAG#1]

Have we got a strangle hold on this yet?
We are now in the 119th post.
One could add the energy figure, the momentum figure and the TKO figure together and divide by 100 to reduce it down to a smaller level and use that.

[300savage]

My only comment on all of this is that why after the original post anyone had anything to say but "yup that's rat" energy sells, momentum kills.

[303Guy]

Now show me a device that measures momentum, please?The pendulum chronograph. It measured momentum from which velocity was calculated.

Thinking about momentum, it's actually not a bad stand alone calculation for knockdown power. True, a bowling ball with massive momentum won't even bruise a deer but at the same time there aren't too many bowling ball guns being used for hunting deer or any other animal, dangerous or not. A requisite for any knockdown power estimation is that it must be a bullet/boolit. Any high momentum bullet/boolit is going to work if it can transfer enough energy into the target (or cut a large enough hole) in the right place.

The power of the bullet/boolit might be more useful than energy. Problem is measuring the power (referring to the rate of energy transfer into the target).

I still say empirical data is needed to find the true 'knockdown' effect of a projectile.

[300savage]

How about several hundred years of dead critters as data ? How about all those goats you have been blowing big holes thru with slow heavy chunks of lead ? Ain't that emperical enough for you ? I know it is for me.
Velocity helps me hit em, momentum is what helps me kill em.

[cainttype]

[QUOTE=303Guy;2363289
Thinking about momentum, it's actually not a bad stand alone calculation for knockdown power. True, a bowling ball with massive momentum won't even bruise a deer but at the same time there aren't too many bowling ball guns being used for hunting deer or any other animal, dangerous or not. A requisite for any knockdown power estimation is that it must be a bullet/boolit. Any high momentum bullet/boolit is going to work if it can transfer enough energy into the target (or cut a large enough hole) in the right place.[/QUOTE]

303, hopefully you'll have better luck keeping the subject on IDENTICAL diameter projectiles, as stated in the original post and several times since. I've tried, but haven't succeeded in barring trucks, bowling balls, or wheel barrows.
I'm getting a little nervous to get out to the workshop, since two of those deadly projectiles are within sight of my backdoor.

By the way, pmer, I'm considering having a T-shirt made with your formula embossed. :)

[303Guy]

How about several hundred years of dead critters as data ?That's exactly what I mean. Take all the empirical data and give it a formula that describes it. I'm betting energy won't be the the end all.

And I did miss the IDENTICAL diameter projectiles bit (or I quickly forgot - same end result).[smilie=1:

On identical diameter projectiles, I have an example of too much power and just right. 303 Brit firing 180gr Highland bullets that stop inside a big billy with frontal shots but kills 'em dead with no spoilt meat at all against a faster and higher energy but lower momentum 150gr Hornady spire point bullet being too much for a slightly larger animal, doing considerable meat damage. I'd say that same Hornady bullet would do the same or more meat damage to a much larger animal without dropping it in its tracks (shot placement dependant).

Notice that shot placement and bullet performance keeps coming into it?

[35remington]

The problem is that all the substitute theories that presume to take the place of the energy calculation are even worse at describing what's going on. Even when we're comparing bullets to bullets. In regard to momentum, compare a 45 Schofield revolver to a .223 round fired out of a 16 inch barrel. Same momentum, vastly different tissue damage heavily in favor of the faster round. Momentum a good yardstick for judgement? Not at all. Here the energy calculation does much better in describing what's going on......1174 versus 280 foot pounds of energy. About a 4X difference.....and you'd see that replicated in comparative tissue damage.

That's when both are bullets, so irrelevancies happen there too in terms of momentum.

I don't claim that energy does not have its failings in describing how bullets work, but the formulae proposed here to take its place are much worse in terms of validity. It is far too easy to make nonsense out of all of these proposals.

The problem with empirical data is just that.......it's empirical. I've found that once a threshold of damage to vital tissue is exceeded, more damage doesn't really kill any quicker. That's why at woods ranges a 25-35 seems to kill deer just as fast as a 30-06 despite a vast difference using any formulae you care to employ, even energy.

[pmer]

Cainttype, of all the things some one can be remembered for I guess that's not the worst LOL. That formula did show a 30-30 is a little short for black bear, maybe it did find a way to quantify what conventional wisdom already knows. As students of the Silver Stream we have been checking and adjusting boolit strength by adjusting our alloy and or velocity for years. I'm going past 2200 FPS with ACWW in 32 WIN SPL (TKO 17.6) and it worked good so far on one white tail. But that was in and out through the ribs without hitting the first shoulder. That chart can show trouble for the .223 Rem. deer hunter too.

I've often thought of a projectile when it hits an animal in terms of a splash. I've hunted about 27 years and shoot 2, sometimes 3 white tailed deer a year. And sometimes I can hear the bloump sound or a cracking sound coming back at me. There has to be a tremendous release of energy. Bowling balls aside, the shorter bullet going faster with its higher KE is short lived because it has more drag and releases its energy quicker on impact. The longer bullet takes a bit longer to explode and thus is at a deeper position in the animal, maybe? I don't have much time for the HPBT hunting bullets either, it seems like there is too much that can go wrong with them. But maybe there is a design push for these in regard to the range of velocity the industry has to work with. Say from 308 Win to any of the big 300 mags if you can design a bullet to get in there and explode sending a big enough wave of pressure to shut down the CNS. Bambi isn't going anywhere exit or no exit hole. I still prefer a nice exit hole though.

I've seen 140 grain 6.5-284 enter the front and not exit DRT. 150 grain 308 Win in from the back and not exit. It was already hit and had to track but got him. 243 Win. 87 grain Horn Spire point out perform Ser. 85 BTHP and 100 grain Game King (SPBT). Barnes .338 cal. 225 grain X really goes to town and is probably in orbit .338 Horn 200 grain Spire point has put a lot V in the freezer for me along with 150 grain 30-06 and some 300 savage. 338-06 to me is one of the better hunting cartridges out there with jacketed ammo.

And yes Johnny, place your shots well, get plenty of sleep and don't drink too much coffee b4 hunting. And speaking of accuracy one should have a rifle that fits good and be familiar with natural point of aim too.

[303Guy]

The problem with empirical data is just that.......it's empirical. I've found that once a threshold of damage to vital tissue is exceeded, more damage doesn't really kill any quicker. That's why at woods ranges a 25-35 seems to kill deer just as fast as a 30-06 despite a vast difference using any formulae you care to employ, even energy.I don't see empirical as being a problem. For example you have told us of the 25-35 and 30-06 on deer at woods ranges. Now if we knew the respective bullets and velocity we could say we know know the 25-35 is adequate for that size deer at those impact velocities. Add your observations to many others we begin to see a pattern. I'm just wondering, isn't that what has already been done? But without the bullet construction or boolit shape.

I've just been looking at JBM and find the Big Game Value for my hornet to be about right on - 57 lbs at 100 yds max. The TKO number doesn't mean much to me - it's just a number. If I could confirm the Big Game Value as being reliable then problem solved aside from appropriate bullet selection. It's only a guide which is better than hope.

[WilliamDahl]

What is the speed of sound (average) in a "typical" critter? If you're striking the critter at or above that velocity, one set of principles apply. If you're striking the critter below that velocity, another set of principles apply.

This factor is DIRECTLY related to destruction of flesh, which is ultimately what matters.

Now we are getting somewhere.
Is the animal old, young, fat, standing on all fours or laying down? Is if the full of the moon or the dark of the moon?
Does it have a lot of hair or balding like me?
All of this may make a difference but since you are asking about the average speed would we not not need and average animal?
Would he have weight in Newtons or Kilograms.
I don't know really.

The human body is 50-65% water. Here's a table of the speed of sound in water:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-speed-water-d_598.html

None of *my* rifles shoot a projectile that fast.

[WilliamDahl]

In the old days wasn't there testing done with boolits hitting a long swinging plate? Seems like I saw a picture and it had a tape or something on it to measure how far the plate swung.

In a 2013 Winchester ammo catalog there is a section on "shooting myths and misconseptions". "A 180 grain 300 mag making 3600 lbs of energy should lift a 50 pound object 70 feet but it won't." It goes on and says its far better to have the right bullets making physical trauma off the nose and the creation of radial pressure waves in the animal (paraphrased). And so thats why they provide a wide range of bullets for different shooter's needs like bonded and HP game bullets ETC.

I still think muzzle energy is neat way to compare cartridges but when I have a serious thought about what a projectile could do I break out the TKO calculator.

The pendulum test is a measurement of momentum. As you may remember from your first Physics course (even if it was just in high school), "momentum is conserved". Well, at least with ideal materials and all those sorts of qualifications, I guess.

[WilliamDahl]

As far as I'm concerned, any energy that a bullet has after it passes through the animal is wasted energy. Besides, a slow heavy round wastes less meat than the hyper velocity rounds.

[44MAG#1]

What was the intents and purpose of the Taylor Knock Out values? What does it suppose to show?

[WilliamDahl]

I wonder if energy (or even momentum) expended per sq-in of bullet cross sectional area would be a good indicator. I haven't started my morning caffeine intake yet, otherwise I would create a spreadsheet and see what values it came up with for various calibers and the bowling ball.

I'm thinking that below some particular value, the projectile does not have enough force to penetrate the surface of the target and as such would not be as likely lethal. Of course there are exceptions -- a person being hit in the side of the head with a baseball for example.

[grumman581]

This going to be an argument that will never solve anything other than just to garner a huge number of post.
There will be people that will believe in energy and/or momentum, Taylor Knock Out value and maybe a number of other things.
There will be no changing most of them.
1/2mass (in pounds) times velocity squared divided by 32.1740 equals energy or velocity squared divided by 450436 times bullet weight equals energy.
And no I don't want to know that mass cannot be weighed because mass will have Newtonian weight which is derived from kilograms so it can be weighed to get the kilograms to get Newtonian weight. Pounds can be derived from kilograms and vise versa. So, lets don't go there.
Again what difference does all this make as long as the guy hunting gets his game regardless of what kills it.

Just in case anyone is wondering where these numbers come from, here's the correct calculation:

KE = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2
mass = bullet-weight-in-grains / 7000 grains-per-lbf / acceleration-due-to-gravity
acceleration-due-to-gravity = 32.1740486 ft per sec^2

So, a 230 gr bullet traveling at 800 ft per sec would be:

0.5 * 230 / 7000 / 32.1740486 * 800 * 800 = 326.7939899 ft-lbs.

[303Guy]

None of *my* rifles shoot a projectile that fast.Of course the bullet doesn't need to be moving as fast as the shockwave. I dare say the rate of deceleration has a lot to do with the shockwave. It was measured in tissue (not living) so it's not speculation. Besides, we've seen burst blood vessels some distance from the wound channel. I'm not so sure that energy retained after passing through is wasted. It's the quality of energy that matters. By 'quality' is meant intensity. So the thinking is that only when there is a lot of it does some of it do a lot of damage. That can be seen in gelatine tests where there is a large cavity followed by a narrow cavity until the bullet stops. The rate of energy transfer diminishes as the speed diminishes.

Bullets that stop just under the skin have not expended all their energy in the animal, the skin stretches and snaps the boolit back, in that way absorbs considerable energy. That's why there is often a huge bruise just under the skin around the bullet.

JBM shows that 230gr bullet at 800 fps as having an OGW of 36lbs at 50yds.

[WilliamDahl]

Just in case anyone is wondering where these numbers come from, here's the correct calculation:

KE = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2
mass = bullet-weight-in-grains / 7000 grains-per-lbf / acceleration-due-to-gravity
acceleration-due-to-gravity = 32.1740486 ft per sec^2

So, a 230 gr bullet traveling at 800 ft per sec would be:

0.5 * 230 / 7000 / 32.1740486 * 800 * 800 = 326.7939899 ft-lbs.

TECHNICALLY, I guess we don't HAVE to measure kinetic energy in ft-lbs. We *could* just say it was 0.5 * 230 grains * 800 * 800 ft^2 per sec^2 = 73,600,000 grain-ft^2 per sec^2, but those are not exactly the most intuitive units, so we convert weight into mass. The official unit of mass in the English system is the "slug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_(mass))".

[pmer]

As far as I'm concerned, any energy that a bullet has after it passes through the animal is wasted energy. Besides, a slow heavy round wastes less meat than the hyper velocity rounds.

In that same Winchester Myth and Misconception article they wrote about having a chronograph on the exit side of ballistic jell. Using their 300 mag 180 grain projectile it had 27 foot pounds left after it exited.

If you have to track the animal you want a exit hole. So in a way exit energy is not wasted. Maybe we need an equation to convert exit energy to peace of mind :smile:.

303guy, How do you do JBM?

[300savage]

The problem is that both sides of the spectrum are correct, a wise hunter simply knows which to lean to depending on what game he is after in what conditions.
A coyote bomb that goes in a few inches and jellefies his innerds is one use of a bullet, stopping a cape buff is a completely different set of requirements.
We want total organ destruction on a coyote, we want to break bones one a charging bear or buff or for that matter any big aggressive critter.
Energy kills prairie dogs up to about goat or small deer sized critters, things start changing in favor of mass and penetration after that point.
And I wish I had a t shirt that said "exit wounds are cool "

[303Guy]

303guy, How do you do JBM?JBM Ballistics. Here's the link; http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

[35remington]

The problem with empirical data is the same as it's always been.......it's subject to interpretation, rather than black and white. Two deer are shot with calibers differing considerably in power, bullet size, whatever. As they typically do, both run 40 yards and keel over. But one observer says "Look! Mine had a bigger blood trail, therefore my bullet is deadlier!" All the while ignoring shot angles, what was hit, etc.

And again, once a certain threshold of damage is equalled or exceeded, more damage doesn't kill quicker. Empirical data is okay up to that point where individuals try to read more into it than is really justified. The attempt will be to "grade" our kills rather than say dead......yes or no? The insistence that a bullet must do "this or that" like not penetrate completely or penetrate completely fogs the issue.

With the eagerness to "grade" our hunting kills, it's hardly surprising that utterly nonsensical ideas like momentum crop up. Inevitably those who seek to advance pet theories as to killing power so narrowly constrain the judgement parameters that their ideas are worthless. If the hypothesis holds up only under very narrow ranges it's not much good. What we're looking to do is in fact compare big and slow and small and fast in a relevant way.

Not there yet.

[fouronesix]

300savage,
Something tells me you've been down this discussion path before and have a bunch of varied game taking experience to back it up. Surprised you're hanging tuff and still in the mix in this thread.
:drinks:

Yes, one the most structurally/physically tough animals I know of is a Cape Buffalo. And, while not the most structurally/physically tough, a large bear is one of the most tenacious and unpredictable after a hit.

[300savage]

Well thank you I appreciate that, and yes I have had a few knee shaking experiences although I can see that there are many on this forum I could not pack water too.
It is a tough question and the only way I know to answer it truly is for a person to take their theories to the field .
Big words, formulas and calculators don't get it done in the real world.
Taking a lot of different critters, with a lot of different caliber and bullet combinations sorts things out pretty clearly, at least in my mind. I have made my share and more of mistakes and have tried to learn from them. And I have sat across many a campfire growing up with men who had forgotten more than I know.
I listened, and finally realized the wisdom they had to share.
And yes I have had to put my learning to the dry mouth test many times .
Why do I bother with this thread? Well I guess I am just hoping that some of that truth I was taught will ring true for someone else willing to listen.
That's all, but thanks again it means a lot to hear you say it.

[EDG]

There is no energy myth. Zero energy means zero killing power. That is a fact...

[Capt. Methane]

My only comment on all of this is that why after the original post anyone had anything to say but "yup that's rat" energy sells, momentum kills.

Ya know, I think that you're really close with that. Small, high velocity projectiles are a lot more sexy than a .50-360gr Maxi Ball just subsonic...but that big heavy bullet is going to go through something like a white tail just the same as a .30 conical bullet at twice (or more) the speed.

There's more to it than just energy or momentum. It is how efficiently that energy is transferred from the bullet to the target. Any energy a bullet retains on exit of the target is a waste. Wasted energy could be calculated if there were a way to accurately measure the mass and velocity of the bullet as it leaves the target...

[44man]

Capt understands and I see others with understanding.
Yes, you need energy but if applied right, any loss from full penetration is not a loss at all.
It is why premium bullets are made better then ever and all companies now make or use them. Energy transfer without losing penetration but if you pay attention, each animal size requires different even though the best bullets have more overlap then they ever did before.

[KCSO]

Put a hole through the vitals and let it leak blood in both directions and your quarry isn't long for this world.

[44MAG#1]

If we condense all the posts on this what have we learned? What have we learned about trying to use math to come up with a formulation to determine killing ability other than marksmanship is really the foremost part of it?
If one takes the very best bullet for a particular circumstance and put that bullet in the wrong place will it kill as well as an improper bullet placed in the right place?
If we take an improper bullet and put in into the wrong place will the animal be less wounded than a proper bullet in the wrong place?
If we have a proper bullet for a broadside shot will it be a proper bullet for a quartering away shot?
Now if we have a proper bullet for let's say out to 100 yards in wooded area will it be the proper bullet of one see the same animal in an open area that would require a 250 yard shot?
Providing we have the proper velocity in each scenario.
Will it be energy, momentum, TKO, velocity, bullet construction or what that will kill?
Provided the bullet is put in the right place.

[44man]

That is always correct 44. We must go with the assumption all shots are placed proper for bullet/boolit evaluation.
However distance has a great bearing on performance. It is the prime reason for more velocity for long range. You need the sustained energy along with less drop.
I see what a deer does shot with the .45 Colt to 50 yards or a little more compared to a deer shot at the same distances with the .44, the .44 kills faster but when I get to 100 yards or so, they become equal comparing each distance while the .45 has lost out at the longer ranges. Stlll, the .45 has not lost penetration. Penetration alone does not kill.

[pmer]

44man, in regard to the 45 Colt have you tried speeding it up with a slighty lighter boolit?

303Guy, I tried the OGW calculator from that website and it does seem interesting. The OGW for the 45 ACP seems small at 50 yards though. There are a lot of GIs that might say it did good past 50 yards on 2 legged critters! Maybe it needs some adjusting?

[44MAG#1]

What we need to do is to carry a few that we know will work for broadside lung shot, a few for broadside shoulder shots, a few for quartering away shots, a few for quartering toward shots, a few for out to 50, a few for out to 100, a few for
thin game for each of the above senarios and a few of each for thick game for our handguns and then if a rifle hunter a few each for each scenario we might possibly encounter hunting with it.
Or we could just carry a few that will work fairly well and try to place that shot where it will do the most good working with what we have.
I don't think I could swap ammo quickly enough to carry all the ideal ammo that would need to be carried.

[300savage]

I have a dear friend here in south Texas who I a living legend of hog hinting with dogs. Most of his kills were made with a knife ,however he also carried one two different marlin lever actions in with him in case an old boar was too strong and deadly for the dogs to hold. He eventually stopped carrying the 44 mag and switched full time to the 41.
Reason being that he did not reload and the best bullet he could find for the 44 was a 240 grain.
He said it for sure had no trouble killing one but often times a shot in the shoulder would not instantly drop it and his dogs would jump in at the sound of the shot and the boar would have just enough life left to cut some up.
But the 41 with the 210 grain bullet gave adequate penetratio but had enough more speed , and yes energyto dump in their body that far more often a hog shot in the same place would simply drop like he was stunned, and before he could recover enough to get back up " and make no mistake they can and will do that " he had been stuck and bled out with a knife.
So one obviously had a bigger diameter, and more momentum
Yet the smaller, lighter, faster bullet exhibited adequate penetration, with stopping properties more suited to his situation and conditions.
But which one would I want in my hands if big critter was bearing down on my space? The other one for sure.
Go figger, trying to condense so many different situations, conditions,game qualities and cartridge combinations into a formula you can write on a three by five and actually live by and count on is juvenile.
Kinda like trying to figger out a formula for a happy marriage.
Experience and God my friends are what get us through.

[300savage]

What we need to do is to carry a few that we know will work for broadside lung shot, a few for broadside shoulder shots, a few for quartering away shots, a few for quartering toward shots, a few for out to 50, a few for out to 100, a few for
thin game for each of the above senarios and a few of each for thick game for our handguns and then if a rifle hunter a few each for each scenario we might possibly encounter hunting with it.
Or we could just carry a few that will work fairly well and try to place that shot where it will do the most good working with what we have.
I don't think I could swap ammo quickly enough to carry all the ideal ammo that would need to be carried.

Someone years ago already felt your pain, his name was John Nosler.

Edit. Please forgive my humor, I just could not resist.. its pretty obvious to me at least that your reality is grounded with experience.

[44man]

44man, in regard to the 45 Colt have you tried speeding it up with a slighty lighter boolit?

303Guy, I tried the OGW calculator from that website and it does seem interesting. The OGW for the 45 ACP seems small at 50 yards though. There are a lot of GIs that might say it did good past 50 yards on 2 legged critters! Maybe it needs some adjusting?
I use a heavy boolit, 335 to 347 gr mainly for the accuracy and bone crunching penetration, nothing stops them. I also use 320 to 330 gr in the .44 for the same reason.
Yes, you can also make lighter and faster ones work but I was recovering too many light boolits/bullets in deer with no blood trails.
The heavy boolits maintain not only penetration but more energy even if slower. It takes energy, no doubt at all. But book ME figures do not tell you a thing because the boolit/bullet is not figured in.
That is where formulas fall down, tons of energy at the skin, inside the animal or 200 yards after penetration. Not a single formula takes bullet construction into account.
There is a relationship between momentum and energy, one alone is wrong. That relation is formed by the bullet/boolit.
Now if every bullet and caliber ever made is listed for effect on every size animal and every angle of impact or what is hit, the velocity needed, the bullet weight needed, the penetration needed the energy, etc, it would take thousands and thousands of pages and would look like Obama Care. Something nobody will ever understand.
If you have the answer you need to be president!
Some here like me, kill many many deer, others kill large animals and some shoot little animals, some shoot people and none can be compared.
Math does not work!

[lwknight]

Math works perfectly.
Big gun = shoot big game
Small gun = shoot smaller game.
Simple

[303Guy]

It seems to me it's bullet mass and velocity that does the job. We need enough mass, enough velocity and enough frontal area. I'd say the frontal area (flat nose or expanded) to mass ratio needs to be taken into account in any killing power formula.

For us caster, we have a somewhat limited velocity window so perhaps heavier is better. For rifle cartridges, the velocity is limited by the twist rate and alloy which leaves us with 1800 to 2200 fps.

Here's comparing 240gr to 300gr 44 mag cast. Velocity from Hodgedon.

8046180462

Note the OGW (Optimum Game Weight) for each. Do these figures hold up to real world experience?

In the right hands with careful and precise shot placement (heart shot) the 35 Remington is 'adequate' for Cape Buffalo. It can also kill one and wound another with one shot (as in breaking the shoulder bone). And if your lucky you get to to tell the tale. That would be my Dad who is still alive at 93. I think he knew how to avoid the big old cantankerous lone bulls. But I digress ....

[303Guy]

Math works perfectly.
Big gun = shoot big game
Small gun = shoot smaller game.
Simple
Looking at it that way it does seem simple.

My Uncle built himself a 338 Win Magnum saying it was good for big stuff right down to the smallest stuff with it's heavy bullet. He said the velocity was low enough and bullet construction so that it did no more meat damage than a smaller caliber on small game. He said one cannot be over-gunned.

[pmer]

I looked on their web site and didn't see much info about what ogw is. It seems kinda low to me.

Yes. 338 and 35 are great calibers.

[destrux]

All I can say is there's something to be said about hydrostatic shock and permanent wound cavities.

A big heavy bullet works fine for some purposes, but if you can do the job with a light fast bullet then I prefer that. If it's a very large animal where light/fast can't reach the vitals then you use big/heavy. If it's a thin skinned animal that you can drop instantly with shock (light bullet moving fast), then that's the best way in my opinion. You need to use a GOOD bullet though that will stay together. Will either way work? Yes, but I prefer not to track for miles if I don't have to.

[pmer]

[QUOTE=44man;2365846]I use a heavy boolit, 335 to 347 gr mainly for the accuracy and bone crunching penetration, nothing stops them. I also use 320 to 330 gr in the .44 for the same reason.



Heavy boolit!? That's giraffe medicine! There's pics of one in the hunting section taken with a 44.

[300savage]

303guy those OGW ratings are pretty much ridiculous in my opinion.
A 240 grain 44 cal HC at over 1300 fps MV will shoot through several 200 pound critters in a row.
So perhaps they meant 200 pounds one at a time..

These are good examples of trying to hunt with a calculator , there isn't much anywhere I would be afraid to take on with that combination.

[303Guy]

This is how Chuck Hawks explains OGW tables.


Here is how to interpret the table, using the 30-30 Winchester as an example. If the 30-30 shooting a 150 grain bullet at 2390 fps is an optimum mule deer caliber at 205 yards, it is more than sufficient at shorter distances. Conversely, this does not mean that the 150 grain 30-30 bullet will not kill a 200 pound deer at 225 yards; it just means that it is past its optimum range for that size game at ranges beyond 205 yards. If most of your anticipated shots at deer will be between 50-150 yards, with maybe an occasional long shot out to about 200 yards, the 30-30 with the 150 grain bullet would be an excellent choice. But if the majority of your anticipated shots will be around 200 yards, with occasional opportunities at considerably longer range, another caliber might be a better choice.

He goes on to say;

Please note that the optimal ranges in the table are based only on the mathematically computed killing power of the cartridge and load. Other crucial factors such as trajectory, bullet design, and bullet placement are ignored. But in the real world they cannot be ignored. Use this table for informational and comparative purposes, not as a guide to how far you should shoot at game animals.

The way I interpret it is it's a guide to give us some idea. It's called Optimum Game Weight and should be seen as that and nothing more.

300savage, my limited experience with the 44 and 240gr boolits is that penetration is pretty limited. The boolit couldn't fully penetrate a cat sized animal head to tail. I would guess velocity to be around 1100fps. One day well take my buddies 44 carbine out, loaded to 1350fps with a 240gr boolit (or maybe heavier). Now I'm sure it will do just fine. I won't be looking at any OGW or TKO or energy figures. Just going by what experienced users have told me.

[300savage]

It would be my guess that something is askew with your feline based bullet test medium.
A hard cast 240 grain 44 going 1300fps will shoot lengthwise of a big hog.
But then you may just have some tuff azzed kitties down there..

And as for the OGW charts and most all such, they are primarily put together to help ease the delicate minds of those who buy and burn maybe one box of ammo a year.
If they can fit a pie plate at a hundred they are good to go, and in lieu of any kind of experience whatsoever ammo makers give them security with OGW..
Makes the little buggers feel good knowing they are using the "proper" stuff.

303 I have read your stuff, and seen your kills, and know what caliber and bullet combinations your packing. You are a hunter and a shooter so I would not worry too much about it all.
In all honesty you have probably forgotten more about killing ctitters than our dear old Chuckie ever knew.
And I like most of his stuff .

[44man]

This is why I went to a heavier cast in the .44. I shot three deer with the 240 XTP's using 24 gr of 296. Distance, 40 to 60 yards. Distance deer ran, 60 to 90 yards. All double lung shots behind the shoulders, no bone hit. Bullets under far side skin or against rib cage.
Backtracking to impact showed no blood on the ground. Weight of deer 130 to 190#
I got to thinking about a quartering shot or a shoulder hit that could result in a lost deer so I bought 320 LBT's and with those and my home made boolits, all the problems went away. Blood trails became massive and distance deer ran came down to 20 to 30 yards with the same hits, many just dropped. Many of my deer have been shot at 100 to 120 yards with no losses. I have never lost a deer with the .44. I will never change a thing. My heavy boolits do around 1316 fps average, the Lee 310 is a wonderful deer boolit. 8049280491
Now look at the deer ham. I shot this buck under the chin, facing me at 67 yards using the .475 BFR, 420 gr boolit at 1350 fps. I took out the spine, short ribs, over all the guts to exit the ham. No meat loss at all.
All boolits were water dropped WW metal.

[300savage]

Those xtp's performed exactly as designed.
Hard cast is a different creature.

[44man]

Yes, they did do what they were made for but they did not kill as fast as my cast and left no blood trails. Cast has shown much more internal damage.
I believe it is because much energy is wasted in expansion, it is just not a rifle.

[jonp]

The 30-30 is the only gun designed around one particular use. Whitetail deer. It is a great gun for that purpose and will do many things but I would hesitate to use it much beyond 200yrds. That is not what it is designed for. If I was anticipating shots beyond that range I would use my 308. In the swamps, woods and short corn fields of the far NorthEast where I grew up hunting the 30-30 Lever was and is a perfect gun.

[cainttype]

With the eagerness to "grade" our hunting kills, it's hardly surprising that utterly nonsensical ideas like momentum crop up. Inevitably those who seek to advance pet theories as to killing power so narrowly constrain the judgement parameters that their ideas are worthless. If the hypothesis holds up only under very narrow ranges it's not much good. What we're looking to do is in fact compare big and slow and small and fast in a relevant way.


The "Energy is most important crowd" always reply in this sort of manner, 35. You've either misread the original post starting this thread or you're intentionally misrepresenting what was written.
The question put forward was how to help educate a person new to reloading/shooting. The facts stated were;
1) Projectile design, intended application, and expected impact velocities are the most important variables to consider.
2) Any cartridge driven to it's potential will post higher energy levels with it's lightest weight projectiles. That same cartrige will post higher momentum value with it's heavier projectiles. It's a simple fact.

Anyone wishing for their cartridge of choice to have better potential to either penetrate deepest OR have better extreme-range performance will ALWAYS find the best choices in projectiles with the highest sectional density (heavier bullets). It's no coincidence that the projectiles with higher sectional density also have higher momentum figures than their light-weight buddies, and post lower energy figures.
Sectional density is a static number. At rest or in flight, the SD never changes...but momentum and energy do. A quick look at a chart showing all three will also show that the heavier projectiles with higher momentum will eventually out run the light-weights downrange, arriving on target at extreme range with higher levels of both momentum AND energy... Disputing such facts is simply "nonsensical". :)
The fact that these heavy-compared-to-lightweight principles apply across the entire spectrum of cartridges in both rifle and handgun make the assertion that momentum can only be applied in a "narrowly constrained" scenario is laughable. It applies to every cartridge.
As for "worthless" ideas, the apparent inability to use a single cartridge and compare the projectile choices available for it (which has been the issue from the beginning) make comparisons of different calibers irrelevant, including bowling balls and wheel barrows. The attempt to avoid comparisons of identical caliber projectiles from a single cartridge (as illustrated in the OP) make those ideas and arguements "worthless".

There is no "magic bullet theory" being hypothesised by me. I stated in the OP that energy does not equal "Stopping Power". I also stated that I prefer momentum figures when I consider cartridge/load combination potentials. I stand by both statements.

[44MAG#1]

Really the only real question is:
Has anything actually been solved by 167 post on this thread? No.
No matter what one says or does there will be someone come up with something to refute it.
There are too many variables to ever come up with even a remotely foolproof way to do it.
As I said at the first of this endeavor is that many posts will be made with no consensus among the illuminated to ever arrive at the destination of agreement.
If I have missed the concensus among everyone and the ship of knowledge has arrived at the isle of agreement show me where I failed to board the vessel.

[44man]

It will never be solved. Only hunters with experience know what to use. There are posts about a 180 gr bullet for the .44 that dropped a deer and has to be the best. Others say the 240 is best because it worked on a deer or two.
It ALWAYS comes down to any single thing you poke a deer with will kill it or let it get away and heal up. You as the hunter must be responsable.
I will never accept one deer being killed with anything as gospel, Too many have just one or two animals to be considerd as an expert.

[9.3X62AL]

There are too many variables to ever come up with even a remotely foolproof way to do it.

Yessir! That goes for both the game fields and the streets & alleys.

[Fenring]

It will never be solved. Only hunters with experience know what to use.

That's crazy talk mate, in this age of computer simulations, equations and keyboard based expertise. [smilie=l:

[pmer]

"44MAG#1" wrote

What we need to do is to carry a few that we know will work for broadside lung shot, a few for broadside shoulder shots, a few for quartering away shots, a few for quartering toward shots, a few for out to 50, a few for out to 100, a few for
thin game for each of the above senarios and a few of each for thick game for our handguns and then if a rifle hunter a few each for each scenario we might possibly encounter hunting with it.
Or we could just carry a few that will work fairly well and try to place that shot where it will do the most good working with what we have.
I don't think I could swap ammo quickly enough to carry all the ideal ammo that would need to be carried.


Just carry a double..you cut your ammo swapping in half that way. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Pmer, I like how you think!
The quality of our members has been proven here with all the posts and all the thought with each.
This is a hard subject with ethics involved so much. I am the softest hunter you will ever meet. I love the animals I persue. I have a poor feeling about many hunters I meet. I see little sportsmanship or respect for the animal. We take life and we should never make any animal suffer.
Nature is much more harsh, kill, eat or die. We are not in that position, animals are raised for food and killed for the stores by others. But we are hunters in the end.
I love tame rabbit meat but it is hard to find. I had rabbits but could never kill one, they died happy at old age. It is hard to explain my feelings because I love to hunt rabbits. I refuse to shoot the deer that are in my yard, they are used to me and my dogs, coming to within 20' of us. I quit hunting my woods. I have to go away for squirrels, not the ones at my bird feeders.
I have a tiny, very old dog, 16 years. She messes the kitchen but can't help it. She can't hear or see very good but is not in pain. She will die in her sleep. I refuse to have her put to sleep, she still knows me and loves to go for a ride.
Do your best when you hunt guys.

[Capt. Methane]

In physics, the pound is a unit of force rather than mass. A common misconception.

Yep, and it takes stones to make pounds.

:shock:

[45 2.1]

Several people here have posted formulas and made statements. Just because you can read and copy does not mean you understand those things...................

[44MAG#1]

Quote Originally Posted by .5mv^2
"In physics, the pound is a unit of force rather than mass. A common misconception"

But for the pound to have force it must have mass. You cannot make something from nothing. Everything is composed of something and something must have mass.
If you don't believe it go look in the mirror. A full length mirror is best.
If you were not mass you wouldn't exist and if you didn't exist you would not be applying force on the spot you are standing in.
In my case 210 of something. Pounds maybe, kilograms or Newtons maybe?

[44man]

I weigh about the same 44mag. Big belly too. I was awake at 3 one morning, had to pee. I heard the floor at the foot of my bed creaking hard and my weight only makes small noise. The steps came up the side of the bed and I had two hands push my shoulders so I bounced into the bed. Funny, I had no fear at all. How can a ghost have so much weight?
We can't weigh a ghost nor can we predict a boolit. I have been wrong too many times.

[Elkins45]

Quote Originally Posted by .5mv^2
"In physics, the pound is a unit of force rather than mass. A common misconception"

But for the pound to have force it must have mass. You cannot make something from nothing. Everything is composed of something and something must have mass.
If you don't believe it go look in the mirror. A full length mirror is best.
If you were not mass you wouldn't exist and if you didn't exist you would not be applying force on the spot you are standing in.
In my case 210 of something. Pounds maybe, kilograms or Newtons maybe?

The unit of mass in the English system of measurement is the slug. The comparison between pounds and slugs is the same as the relationship between grams and newtons in SI.

[grumman581]

Yep, and it takes stones to make pounds.


Slugs.

To give people units that they were familiar with, we came up with lbf and lbm (pounds-force and pounds-mass). 1 pound-force = 1 pound-mass at 1 standard gravity.

[303Guy]

I am the softest hunter you will ever meet. I love the animals I pursue. 44man, I am just like you! I too love the animals I hunt. I too couldn't kill a back yard animal. I've been out hunting and not taken a shot. One animal (a nice sized antelope) was standing in my sights so I stalked closer. When it was still there I stalked even closer until it decided I was too close and left.


We take life and we should never make any animal suffer. Amen.

[303Guy]

I switched over from Imperial to metric during high school and to SI at college a few years later. It's a way easier system to work with. There are no 'constants' in formulae and so on. The bug bear with SI is mass and force. A kilogram weighs 9.807 Newtons at sea level (standard gravity). The link between force (Newtons) and mass is acceleration. 1 Newton acting on 1kg produces acceleration if 1 m/s². Gravity produces 9.807 m/s². People do still talk of kg force which is an anomaly. Momentum is mass x velocity = kgm/s² = Ns (Newton seconds) = force x time. So, momentum is force x time. An impulse is also force x time. A smaller force applied over a longer time produces the same impulse as a larger force applied over a shorter time. Think heavier, slower bullet versus lighter, faster boolit.

My particular heavy , slow boolit, the 240gr 44, that failed to fully penetrate a cat sized critter, failed because the force was being applied slow enough for the critter to move with the boolit thus absorbing the impulse, something like riding a punch. By the way, had that critter been alive it would have died instantly I'm sure. I was expecting it to explode!

Anyway, nothing changes, just that momentum is an important factor in boolit performance. Energy is probably more important but not over-riding. I've said before, when it comes to hunting I do not consider energy at all - I have no idea of energy (or momentum) figures. Neither matter. Only velocity, boolit mass and frontal area (effective sectional density). That and what I know about bullet performance which is empirical anyway (some of that is from what I've learned from you guys reported experiences).

By the way, what does a white tail deer weigh?

[grumman581]

By the way, what does a white tail deer weigh?

There are quite a few subspecies and the size varies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer#Size_and_weight

[303Guy]

Thanks, grumman581. So does the statement that the 30-30 is 'ideal' for white tail encompass the larger specimens but the rare monster specimens would be at closer ranges?

Having determined the weight range of goats, I compared that to the OGW from JBM for a 55gr 223 bullet with 2700 fps muzzle velocity and the correlation to my field results is pretty good. The range limitation I self imposed for different size goats also correlates well.

The same applies for the 30-30 and white tail deer using 150gr RN (couldn't find a FN example bullet). Up 500 lb real close down to 160 lb at 200 yds. I see White tail can vary from 130 lbs to 290 lbs (with one monster specimen of 510 lbs being recorded).

Red deer range from 260 lbs to 370 lbs. In my estimation the 30-30 is a little under powered for red deer. No experience there, just what I would estimate - unless real close (all our red deer tend to be on the larger side from what I've seen). I consider the 303 Brit marginal for them yet I've seen one DRT with a 7-08 and I know they get taken with 6.5's with 140gr bullets. So maybe I tend to under estimate game size for caliber.

[singleshot]

The human body is 50-65% water. Here's a table of the speed of sound in water:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-speed-water-d_598.html

None of *my* rifles shoot a projectile that fast.

And it just so happens that the "average" speed of sound in any critter is about 60% or so of the speed of sound in water...when you strike a critter above the critical velocity, you have a different set of principles at play when it comes to terminal ballistics. A super-sonic shock wave in flesh produces entirely different results than a sub-sonic shock wave in the same flesh. I don't feel like typing a treatise on the subject, but here's another "bone" to keep the discussion going.

[singleshot]

And it just so happens that this velocity usually falls somewhere around 2400 fps for mammals...as a rough figure. If the projectile drops below the speed of sound in that critter, the damage to flesh should also change accordingly. Of course, instrumenting live critters for testing could prove quite tricky.

[jonp]

When most people speak of whitetail they are talking about O. virginianus. I have personally seen them taken in our camp in Northern New England over 300lbs although that is rare. 250lb deer are taken every year. Although they can be large they have a thin skin and are not necessarily hard to kill given a proper shot placement. I took a nice field dressed 180lb with an open sight GP100 and a 165gr bullet at 35 yards. Within a reasonable distance which has been lengthened somewhat with the lever revolution bullets a 30-30 will work quite nicely.
People may and will argue with me but I think that 30-30 was designed for the Whitetail to be taken with iron sights so I would limit my shots with it to what I could do with those. For me that was never much beyond 150yrds when I was younger. Considering the majority of deer are taken in mixed cover and hardwoods that seems to be a good rule of thumb. Of course if you are sitting a stand on the edge of a cornfield in the mid-west or a bean field in the southeast the 30-30 would not be adequate at all.

[Capt. Methane]

Slugs.

Doh! Still, for comedic effect it sounded better with stones than slugs- ;) I put salt on slugs...stones get tossed out of the garden!



To give people units that they were familiar with, we came up with lbf and lbm (pounds-force and pounds-mass). 1 pound-force = 1 pound-mass at 1 standard gravity.

They do the same thing with the kilogram-treat it as if one kg mass weighs one kg at standard gravity.

Of course by that convention it would "weigh" 1/6th of a kg on the moon even though it's mass has not changed. I get it, was just trying to inject a little much needed levity.

[grumman581]

Doh! Still, for comedic effect it sounded better with stones than slugs- ;) I put salt on slugs...stones get tossed out of the garden!

They do the same thing with the kilogram-treat it as if one kg mass weighs one kg at standard gravity.

Of course by that convention it would "weigh" 1/6th of a kg on the moon even though it's mass has not changed. I get it, was just trying to inject a little much needed levity.

OK... I thought you were implying that the "stone" (Imperial measurement system) was a measure of mass.

[grumman581]

Thanks, grumman581. So does the statement that the 30-30 is 'ideal' for white tail encompass the larger specimens but the rare monster specimens would be at closer ranges?

Having determined the weight range of goats, I compared that to the OGW from JBM for a 55gr 223 bullet with 2700 fps muzzle velocity and the correlation to my field results is pretty good. The range limitation I self imposed for different size goats also correlates well.

The same applies for the 30-30 and white tail deer using 150gr RN (couldn't find a FN example bullet). Up 500 lb real close down to 160 lb at 200 yds. I see White tail can vary from 130 lbs to 290 lbs (with one monster specimen of 510 lbs being recorded).

Red deer range from 260 lbs to 370 lbs. In my estimation the 30-30 is a little under powered for red deer. No experience there, just what I would estimate - unless real close (all our red deer tend to be on the larger side from what I've seen). I consider the 303 Brit marginal for them yet I've seen one DRT with a 7-08 and I know they get taken with 6.5's with 140gr bullets. So maybe I tend to under estimate game size for caliber.

When I was a kid, my first deer rifle was a .30-30. Usually hunting in thick brush with iron sights, so if the deer was further than 50 yards away, you wouldn't see it. In some of the areas, you wouldn't see anything past 10 yards. :(

These days, I don't have the .30-30 anymore, but I have quite a few other rifle calibers -- .300 win mag, 7.62x51, 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and .45-70. I choose the .45-70, but I hunt hogs and I don't want to have to say that I didn't "bring enough gun". The deer locally are rather small and not worth the trouble of harvesting anyway. Besides, they're too damn tame and no challenge. I was pulling into my subdivison the other night and saw some deer across from the entrance to the subdivision in the front yard of the elementary school. I circled around to take a look and there were 10 of them -- mostly does though. They glanced up once or twice and then continued eating.