Savage Inline and Smokeless Powder

[wolfspotter]

A guy I've known for years was at our local range Friday to do some shooting with his Savage inline muzzleloader and blew it up. The only information I got was from fellow members that were not there at the time and the accident didn't make the news or paper. The victim is a very safe, smart shooter and helps give the hunter safety coarse. My buddy found out when he went to the range and saw the shooting bench covered in blood with a large hole blown through it and was able to pry some pieces of barrel out of it.
Another shooter four benches away was also taken to the hospital to have shrapnel removed from his arm. Don't know why it happened yet or what type of powder he was using but will follow up and keep everyone posted.

Didn't see a thing this opening weekend of muzzleloading.

[45nut]

My buddy found out when he went to the range and saw the shooting bench covered in blood with a large hole blown through it and was able to pry some pieces of barrel out of it.

Wow,, scary.

[testhop]

out at my club a couble years ago there was a notice on the bulletin board about a savage +blowing up supposely after a lot of shots of smokeless powder so the club outlawed smokeless powder in muzzleloaders on the range. i voted yes
better safe than sorry

[Andy_P]

Sad story. I guess we'll never know exactly what actually happened, but I bristle at outright bans put in place as a reaction against an incident, always in the name of safety, to protect against any number of the supposed dangers of firearms.

Any gun that is designed for blackpowder CAN be loaded safely with smokeless - period.

It can also easily be overloaded with smokeless, as can any firearm.

[NSP64]

Sad story. I guess we'll never know exactly what actually happened, but I bristle at outright bans put in place as a reaction against an incident, always in the name of safety, to protect against any number of the supposed dangers of firearm.

HERE, HERE. It would be like banning cars after an accident. If we arbitrarily banned anything after someone got hurt, think of what the world would look like. No cars,trucks,playground equipment,
4 heelers,bows&arrows,showers,ladders,nailguns,
hammers,knives of any kind,chainsaws, stairs,electricity,gasoline,etc.etc.:neutral:

[Rattus58]

He's probably a buddy of Toby's.... :grin: :grin:

[Rattus58]

Sad story. I guess we'll never know exactly what actually happened, but I bristle at outright bans put in place as a reaction against an incident, always in the name of safety, to protect against any number of the supposed dangers of firearms.

Any gun that is designed for blackpowder CAN be loaded safely with smokeless - period.

It can also easily be overloaded with smokeless, as can any firearm.

Really Andy... and just where in God's Green Earth did you come up with that pronouncement? I happen to be one the few fools on earth that shoot smokeless out of a black powder firearm... and I'm challenging your broadbrush and arbitrary statement in its entirety.

Maybe you'd care to debate this little tidbit with me... and I might add, its a rather outrageous statement you're making and I'd like to hear from you how you justify it. By the way... how many black powder guns do you shoot smokeless from... and also, how do you get them to set off? Ohhhhhh duplex...... I see....

Well I'm waiting.... waiting .... waiting.... tap tap tap..

Aloha.. :cool:

[charger 1]

Ok now we're finally into an area where I know a little sumtin. I've lived eat breathed these things. Heres what I've seen in those that have blown or rung the tube. due to vent liners being allowed to go WAY oversize, OR bullet sabot combos to loose the following has happened.. The fella takes his gun and charges it up like usual. If he happens to hit the right combination of event in a loading like the liner has been getting bigger, then due to not letting things cool, or using a different bullet/sabot or a combination of the two that makes things a little looser, he ends up with a flash burn like with an under minimum charge in any gun. You know the way the primer flash goes over the powder cause its lying flat. In the ML case and the scenario given the blast of the primer is shoving the projectile forward as its igniting a powder charge which is spread out through out a few inches, giving the same low density flash as with the cartridge scenario. Change liners before .035" max. Keep tight loads....NEVER lube. And believe it or not for safety and accuracy these things like the cheapest, lowest blast cheddite primers you can get. Folk herebouts know I hot rod stuff. I've seen quite a few blow but I've followed those rules and gotten away with murder


PS. These low weight, or spitzer type things are also a no-no. Can be bumped by primer blast to easy due to small contact

[Rattus58]

Charger... I realize it is a bear you are standing in front of, but it reminds me of them ghoulish fellas in that movie ghost... and when yer talkin bout smokeless in a caplock... was sorta appropriate looking I was thinking... *grin* :grin:

Aloha... :cool:

[charger 1]

Charger... I realize it is a bear you are standing in front of, but it reminds me of them ghoulish fellas in that movie ghost... and when yer talkin bout smokeless in a caplock... was sorta appropriate looking I was thinking... *grin* :grin:

Aloha... :cool:

Given I duplicated so good and never saw the show, I'm kinda proud of myself....I think:confused:

[Rattus58]

You can be proud... they was doin good work.... :grin:

[Andy_P]

Really Andy... and just where in God's Green Earth did you come up with that pronouncement? I happen to be one the few fools on earth that shoot smokeless out of a black powder firearm... and I'm challenging your broadbrush and arbitrary statement in its entirety.

Maybe you'd care to debate this little tidbit with me... and I might add, its a rather outrageous statement you're making and I'd like to hear from you how you justify it. By the way... how many black powder guns do you shoot smokeless from... and also, how do you get them to set off? Ohhhhhh duplex...... I see....

Well I'm waiting.... waiting .... waiting.... tap tap tap..

Aloha.. :cool:


You know that you can debunk my statement by giving one (yes that's a single example) of a blackpowder firearm for which no single safe smokeless load and loading method exists.

P.S. I shoot a Snider, a Swedish Rolling Block and a Few Swiss Vetterlis with smokeless (even though I shouldn't). I have never used a duplex load, though I might some day.

[wolfspotter]

Well everyone is still waiting to see how hurt the shooter is but he doesn't recall what happened being knocked unconscious and all. Was told the breech plug blew as well as the reciever. Looks like the barrel let go about midway too!

[waksupi]

No, you CAN NOT load any BP firearm with modern powder. At least, not more than once. That is an irresponsible statement.
If the barrel blew at midpoint, there was an obstruction at that point of some kind. One of the barrel companies up here did extensive destructive testing years ago, and you have to realy screw up to blow a BP barrel.

[Rattus58]

You know that you can debunk my statement by giving one (yes that's a single example) of a blackpowder firearm for which no single safe smokeless load and loading method exists.

P.S. I shoot a Snider, a Swedish Rolling Block and a Few Swiss Vetterlis with smokeless (even though I shouldn't). I have never used a duplex load, though I might some day.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about a swedish rolling block or the others. Are they closed breech muzzleloaders? I've no idea... but a London Arms Musketoon in 58 caliber using musket caps as an ignition source cannot ignite smokeless powder. The only way its ignitable is with black powder first. Now, the dilemma.. in my Thunderbolt, it was relatively easy to find starting loads from which start. There is nothing like that around for the musketoon.

Now the other thing, the musketoon has very weak hammer spring which cannot contain the back pressure. Also the heli-coil is not strong enough to withstand the pressures of a full load of 2 3/4 drams of black powder, and I'd be very hesitant to duplicate this with smokeless.

So tell me how do you go about using smokeless in a caplock or flintlock muzzleloader? Oh.. and do it safely.

Aloha... :cool:

[mooman76]

I don't believe in shooting smokeless in a M/L. it's not safe and you may get away with it 100 times but one little screw up and it's over and thats fine if it's just you but what about the fellas next to you. That's (one of the reasons) why I avoid public ranges. You just don't know what the fella next to you is doing! I don't believe in loading rounds to beyond their safe capacity either. If you want to shoot a magnum load, buy a magnum gun and shoot magnums all day long. Have fun and shoot safe!

[Rattus58]

No, you CAN NOT load any BP firearm with modern powder. At least, not more than once. That is an irresponsible statement.
If the barrel blew at midpoint, there was an obstruction at that point of some kind. One of the barrel companies up here did extensive destructive testing years ago, and you have to realy screw up to blow a BP barrel.

I got the "No, you CAN NOT load any BP firearm with modern powder. " part ok, but what are you saying beyond that again???

Aloha.... :cool:

[waksupi]

I got the "No, you CAN NOT load any BP firearm with modern powder. " part ok, but what are you saying beyond that again???

Aloha.... :cool:

That means you can shoot smokeless powder in any BP firearm. Once. After that, you need to heal up, find the parts that blew up, weld them together, and try again.

[725]

Without entertaining a discussion about the differences between a BP cartridge gun and a BP ML gun, I, too, believe smokeless in a ML is flirting with danger. Even, it appears, in one designed to handle smokeless. Why go there? I for one have enough evidence to make a decision, and I didn't even have to mop up the blood.
725

[Rattus58]

Hmmmmm well... I just figured out that the rolling block ol Andy was talking bout and that other v gun... are all cartridge guns to start with.... hmmmm and true reloaders can figure out a safe load usually for the old black powder guns with acceptable brass... I can see that he wasn't talking about muzzleloaders.... Hello Thomas.... knock knock..... :)

So Andy..... How do YOU figure out a safe load for a muzzleloader???

What I thought.... :)

Ahhh go ahead... give it a shot anyway andy.... :)

Aloha... :cool:

[charger 1]

I would bet the barrel rupture was more like a third the way down and as I described due to clumsy circumstances the load got bumped by primer force then ignited when its density was so low it flashed and the load then became an obstruction....A muzzle loader designed for smokeless pressures is no more dangerous than a cartridge rifle in the hands of a fool !

[charger 1]

WARNING>>>>>>>>OFF TOPIC

Holy ka ka Andy P you ever close bro. I'm just up in the frew. Drop us a line
dougl@nrtco.net

[Underclocked]

There should exist a scientifically based definition of exactly what criteria must be met to be considered "black powder or substitute" and no powders that fall outside that definition should be allowed in muzzleloader hunting.

As it is, there can be argument as to what is is.

The widescale introduction of the use of smokeless (my own definition prevails in this case) has been a general invitation to disaster - not only placing the shooter at risk, but also placing the entire sport of muzzleloading (particularly as it applies to hunting with a muzzleloader) at risk.

Time will tell whether those risks turn into an explosive catastrophe, but it is simply not worth what is being gambled, IMHO.

"Magnum" is another word that should never apply in the world of muzzleloading. What the heck does that mean anyway?

I'm very glad the shooter involved wasn't injured even worse.

[charger 1]

There should exist a scientifically based definition of exactly what criteria must be met to be considered "black powder or substitute" and no powders that fall outside that definition should be allowed in muzzleloader hunting.

As it is, there can be argument as to what is is.

The widescale introduction of the use of smokeless (my own definition prevails in this case) has been a general invitation to disaster - not only placing the shooter at risk, but also placing the entire sport of muzzleloading (particularly as it applies to hunting with a muzzleloader) at risk.

Time will tell whether those risks turn into an explosive catastrophe, but it is simply not worth what is being gambled, IMHO.

"Magnum" is another word that should never apply in the world of muzzleloading. What the heck does that mean anyway?

I'm very glad the shooter involved wasn't injured even worse.




IMHO
Muzzle loading should be defined as that which is loaded from the muzzle.PERIOD

As long as the manfacturer has proofed his tubes to smokeless pressures there is no need to wait to see if the results will be disasterous. The results have been out there by makers such as Ronald Name, specialty ML products to name a couple for over 3 decades. During all that time you never heard of a smokeless ML blowup because you had to be a somewhat serious gunner who knew his stuff To order one of them. Now any fool with a few hundred bucks can pick one off the shelf. In short, theres a lot more of them a lot more readily available to those not well versed in what makes things tick...Its the same as the basic handloading of metallic cartridges. As soon as it became something everybody was doing the accidents increased. If you look at anything. As soon as more people are doing it more people are having accidents... Did you know that if you put a million people out on the interstate theres a far higher chance of an accident than if you put one monkey out there alone.... Now just add this to the equation, outta one million you just know your goin to have atleast a few monkeys.....Seriously, there like anything else, in the hands of the right person there as harmless as rolling your own ammo is in the hands of the right person... We all know that can go very very right and pressures can be maintained so consistantly that bullet can be put on bullet at insane distances, or it to can go south in the hands of the monkey, so do we ban it? Hell if your going to ban things to protect monkeys move on up here to canukistan, the lefties ill love ya

[Underclocked]

I rather suspected my post would generate a reaction. [smilie=1:

I don't have the capability to ban anything past the edge of my lawn. My opinion is as stated and how you get from there to association with left-wing politics shows a lack of clear thinking on your part, charger. :mrgreen: It also couldn't be farther from the truth.

State legislatures have a habit of writing the words (I have no idea how it is in canukistan) "black powder or black powder substitute" and that seems open to a great deal of interpretation. That phrase should be more clearly defined and not completely arbitrary as it would seem to be at this time.

And if you want to put a bullet at insane distances - it seems to me a .270 Weatherby might be a more suitable choice. I believe mortar rounds also load from the muzzle. :)

[ktw]

State legislatures have a habit of writing the words (I have no idea how it is in canukistan) "black powder or black powder substitute" and that seems open to a great deal of interpretation. That phrase should be more clearly defined and not completely arbitrary as it would seem to be at this time.

Michigan's wording is similar, although it is written up as 'black powder or commercial black powder substitute"

It's not as ambiguous or poorly defined as some claim. Look at any can of smokeless powder. All of the ones on my shelf have a manufacturer warning stating that it is not a blackpowder substitute.

-ktw

[charger 1]

how you get from there to association with left-wing politics shows a lack of clear thinking on your part, charger.


Whew, does the me everybody knows on here ever want to deal with that statement on its own...........However


scenario
1) Do everything in your power to leave/get the wording by whom ever to read muzzle or front loading. This leaves the choice up to the private citizen as to what he stuffs down there. They call that freedom

2)You.Meaning you as a public allow yourself to be told exactly what you'll be putting down there. Then its no longer your choice


GET IT?

You know this is right up there with the statements like"Oh let them ban handguns or limit them, dont effect me" "Let them limit mag round counts, dont effect me" Weather you agree with something or not, you never let the government, or your attitude be one so lame that wording is allowed to curb your freedom of choice... Oh I could go on, but the heat is building, so I'll go do some clear thinking now :veryconfu

[omgb]

This is not the same as a gun control issue. This is a matter of safety and fair chase. To the first point, the use of smokeless in MLs is an invitation to disaster based on the ease with which the public can become confused. Time and time again we are deluged with accounts of individuals who make rash decisions with regard to firearms. Even when it was absolutely verboten to use any smokeless powder in a ML, we still had idiots who did so and paid a hefty price for it. Now, with the addition of some models of ML that will accepts smokeless, the probability that someone will use smokeless in a non-approved model increased dramatically. That can only have a very negative effect on the public's already jaded view of the shooting sports. Thus, I'm for a voluntary ban of the part of manufacturers followed by a general ban on their use in special ML seasons.

Also, ML seasons were originally designed to give the ML hunter a fair chance at taking game without having to compete with the CF (center fire) crowd. Today's inline MLs pretty much remove any real handicap from the ML hunter and put them on an even foot with single shot CF hunters. Not exactly even but damn close. In the spirit of true sportsmanship, i would not prohibit inline MLs but I wouldn't give them a special season either. Now add smokeless inlines to the mix and any real disadvantage drops to almost nil. Thus, I'd relegate them to the general hunting season for that reason alone.

So, once the special season issue is put to rest, there remains little impetus for the use of smokeless powder in MLs. Once demand drops, the sale of these firearms will drop to very low levels and the average nimrod will abandon them for something else. That will leave only the specialty crank using these firearms. By their nature, these guys tend to be much more careful and thus less likely to make foolish and careless or just plain ignorant choices.

That's my take any way.

[charger 1]

Throughout the US of A is there special seasons for handgun hunters?

[Freightman]

Do not have to worry about it in Texas as very few counties have a BP separate season and no special HG season.
Having said that I see what Charger is saying, and I am too tired of the governments concern for my safety in personal choice. I also know that public preception of "hunting" is a dude in cammo shooting everything in sight tos satisfy threr blood lust" which is a false as can be, but the "anti" has done a better job with his lies than we have with the truth.
"If you see a gun run to your teacher or to a policeman" sound familiar? a man in our vacinity spent a fourtune getting his rights back over a toy gun his kid left lying in the back seat of his car he was arested and drug throught the news. Judged Not Guilty but no apolagy from anyone.
Is preception important? I know we may be right but still be judged wrongley.
By the way MHO the news media will report only what is popular and raise their ratings! this includes the local media.
Thanks for letting me say my piece and no we do not need any more regulation but.

[Rattus58]

Where did this thread go..... and where did Andy P go.... huh... where'd he go.. huh where'd he go :grin:

[charger 1]

Where did this thread go..... and where did Andy P go.... huh... where'd he go.. huh where'd he go :grin:


Its still on my screen. Go clean your glasses.

The above poster hit my point. Hey by the way you USA'ers still got the firecrackers that go bang? Ya I know ya's do. You just decide FOR YOURSELVES who should have em right. Well we allowed it to be decided for us that fireworks didnt need to go bang and that they were dangerous. Ya I know its nothing. But boys you add a couple thousand nothings up and your freedom is gone. Trust me keep everything you can. Keep it in its widest definition, then atleast YOU have the freedom of choice weather you wanta use smokeless front loaders or give your kid a handfull of firecrackers....You know the way it should be

[Rattus58]

Yes its on my screen too.... but it started out as a Savage thread and smokeless and veered into a rules thread.... and andy sayed I could make my muzzleloader safe for smokeless.... :grin:

Aloha... :cool:

[Rattus58]

This is not the same as a gun control issue. This is a matter of safety and fair chase. .

Please explain how this is in ANY way fair chase issue?

Aloha... :cool:

[charger 1]

Please explain how this is in ANY way fair chase issue?

Aloha... :cool:


I can, but probly not from the side of the fence you want it from. Pretty much each year I smack a deer with a 300 grain speer out the smokeless pipe approaching 2400 fps and shut him off in away I can garauntee you black or its subs are not capable of. I would say thats fare to the deer

[Rattus58]

What side of the fence shoud it be from then? I smack a deer at 1350 fps, its not going anywhere either... so what does smokeless have to do with anything to do with fair chase?

Aloha... :cool:

[charger 1]

What side of the fence shoud it be from then? I smack a deer at 1350 fps, its not going anywhere either... so what does smokeless have to do with anything to do with fair chase?

Aloha... :cool:


You ever noticed how whitetail from different areas need different amounts of shock to shut em down. Typically with those pistol like velocities here if you didnt plunk it dead center through the ticker you'd loose your animal

Aloha:roll:

[singleshotbuff]

Just my $0.02 worth (which may actually be worth substantially less LOL),

I think that if we start using smokeless powders in muzzleloaders, SOME state game departments (not all mind you, but some) may just see this as an end around on the "blackpowder/primitive weapons" special seasons and do away with those special seasons all together. I also have the same fear of the extensive use of "magnum" inlines that can/will kill deer at 250 yards. I THINK, although I can't prove it, that most state "primitive" seasons were adopted to allow the taking of deer or other game with "primitive" weapons. Kinda like a bow season. IMHO any muzzle loader, smokeless or otherwise, that shoots as flat and hits harder than some CF deer rifles, violates the spirit, if not the letter of the law.

While I don't care one bit what you kill your deer with, rifle, shotgun, handgun, traditional muzzleloader or inline, I just think it's a slippery slope that CAN eventually wind up costing some hunters their "primitive" weapons seasons.

Not saying that it has ANYTHING to do with fair chase, just that some game departments may soon begin to think that if an inline (BP or smokeless) muzzleloader can kill game better (not really better, just farther) than a 30/30, either allow 30/30s or do away with so called primitive weapons seasons.

This is something that I have been afraid of for years, with the rise in popularity and killing power of inlines. Since I enjoy hunting with my caplock muzzleloader with REAL black powder, I am afraid of losing the season to game department irritation at "rule beaters".

I'll give an example, here in Ohio, deer hunting is limited to shotgun, handgun and muzzleloader. No rifles at all. A lot of hunters use inlines (smokeless or BP) to increase their range over a shotgun. I'd like to use my 30-30/30-06/8X57mm to "increase my range over a shotgun". If an inline burns smokeless powder (or any BP substitute for that matter) and shoots flat to 250 yards with JACKETED bullets (sabots), how is it any different than my favorite CF rifle? Just because you load it from the front??

Again, not knocking what YOU choose to kill deer or other game with, I just think that we may get to a point where SOME game departments say "enough is enough" and either drop "primitive weapons" seasons, or severely resrict them to flintlock/patched RB only. If I'm not mistaken, PA is or used to be flint only.

Sorry for the long rant, just something that has troubled me for quite a while.

SSB

[mooman76]

Singleshot
I don't think you have anything to worry about. Most states stipulate that you have to use BP or BP substitute in the muzzel loader season and allot of them have put a halt to inlines as well.
You are right PA used to be flint only and if they changed I was unaware of it. I thought that was going a little too far(flint only) especially with the rise in deer population back east.

[waksupi]

Muzzleloader areas weren't so much designated for the primitive aspect, as the limited range of traditional arms. A round ball has a maximum range of around 800 yards. A conical bullet started at 2400 fps, may range a bit further than that. Once the Fish and Game guys figure this out, and inform the legislatures, kiss your muzzleloading seasons goodbye.

[slughammer]

PA still has its after Christmas Flintlock season. They have also added a week of Antlerless that allows any muzzleloader (Oct13-20) SO, I own both. For real, I don't thrill over using the flintlock, but have for over 15 seasons. And I have been successful many times in those years. I would have much rather used a percussion gun.

As far as fair chase and all these special seasons, I think its all a ploy to sell equipment that generates revenue for the commision. If you want to manage deer numbers, issue the tags and set the dates. Thats all I want from the commission, A TAG, I can decide my own challenge and my own fair chase.

[Rattus58]

Just my $0.02 worth (which may actually be worth substantially less LOL),

I think that if we start using smokeless powders in muzzleloaders, SOME state game departments (not all mind you, but some) may just see this as an end around on the "blackpowder/primitive weapons" special seasons and do away with those special seasons all together. I also have the same fear of the extensive use of "magnum" inlines that can/will kill deer at 250 yards. I THINK, although I can't prove it, that most state "primitive" seasons were adopted to allow the taking of deer or other game with "primitive" weapons. Kinda like a bow season. IMHO any muzzle loader, smokeless or otherwise, that shoots as flat and hits harder than some CF deer rifles, violates the spirit, if not the letter of the law.

While I don't care one bit what you kill your deer with, rifle, shotgun, handgun, traditional muzzleloader or inline, I just think it's a slippery slope that CAN eventually wind up costing some hunters their "primitive" weapons seasons.

Not saying that it has ANYTHING to do with fair chase, just that some game departments may soon begin to think that if an inline (BP or smokeless) muzzleloader can kill game better (not really better, just farther) than a 30/30, either allow 30/30s or do away with so called primitive weapons seasons.

This is something that I have been afraid of for years, with the rise in popularity and killing power of inlines. Since I enjoy hunting with my caplock muzzleloader with REAL black powder, I am afraid of losing the season to game department irritation at "rule beaters".

I'll give an example, here in Ohio, deer hunting is limited to shotgun, handgun and muzzleloader. No rifles at all. A lot of hunters use inlines (smokeless or BP) to increase their range over a shotgun. I'd like to use my 30-30/30-06/8X57mm to "increase my range over a shotgun". If an inline burns smokeless powder (or any BP substitute for that matter) and shoots flat to 250 yards with JACKETED bullets (sabots), how is it any different than my favorite CF rifle? Just because you load it from the front??

Again, not knocking what YOU choose to kill deer or other game with, I just think that we may get to a point where SOME game departments say "enough is enough" and either drop "primitive weapons" seasons, or severely resrict them to flintlock/patched RB only. If I'm not mistaken, PA is or used to be flint only.

Sorry for the long rant, just something that has troubled me for quite a while. SSB

Ok... Would you like to continue this debate on this thread, or would you prefer to start this on another? I'm asking because I'm prepared to weigh in here on this issue in a rather big way, and though it may be unnecessary to say so, in a manner counter to your own. I'm currently involved in re-writing game rules here in Hawaii for the Island of Hawaii and over the last three years have seen this debate go on and on and I'm aware of what game managers are thinking... and let's say that your fears are realized.... why would you not be able to go hunting with your flintlock?

Aloha... :cool:

[singleshotbuff]

Rattus,

I would welcome this debate in another thread, although I don't know if I have anything else "useful" to add. Please start a thread if you'd like, I'd like to hear what information you have from a game departments point of view.

As to your question of "why would you not be able to go hunting with your flintlock?".

A: I use a caplock :kidding: (just ribbin you)

B: I never said I couldn't hunt with my traditional muzzleloader, I'm merely afraid of losing the "special primitive only" season and being lumped in with all other methods for taking game. If everyone else can shoot to 250 yards, maybe I should just leave the caplock at home and use an inline. Not that I would, because I enjoy the challenge, but in certain areas deer hunting is a bit "competitive".

As far as I'm concerned, the answer is VERY simple, at least in states like Ohio. Just allow a set number of deer to be harvested by an individual hunter, regardless of weapon used. There would be no "bow" season, "primitive" season" or "gun" season. Of course, that logic is TOO simple for someplace like the Buckeye state. :holysheep

Again, this is all MY OPINION and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

My deepest apologies to the originator of this thread for the unintentional hi-jack. If this discussion continues I SINCERELY hope it is in a different thread.

SSB

[Rattus58]

:grin: :grin: I saw the error of my ways as soon as I posted on the flintlock.... :grin: I engage my fingers much quicker than I can my brain... sort of a quick draw syndrome leftover from hop along cassidy or the lone ranger or maybe it was the rifleman... I'm a confused young man its true.... but that qualifies as a disability... so back off.... :Fire:

Ok... all kidding asides.... Here in Hawaii they have in fact discussed a single shot rifle season, as they are in other states as well. Some states have passed that threshold and permit black powder firearms in muzzleloader seasons... and whose fault is that now I wonder....

Personally, I thought you have a great insight and thought your solution made a lot of sense, so many deer per person... makes sense to me... but see paragraph one above....

Now... losing the primitive season... let me ask you, what does the primitive season give you that being out hunting by yourself doesn't?

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[testhop]

ok to all you shooters out there who say useing smokeless in a blacklpowder is safe i ask
why is it no compley except savage says never use smokelsss because it may cause ingery
or death and it would void the warrenty

[Rattus58]

ok to all you shooters out there who say useing smokeless in a blacklpowder is safe i ask
why is it no compley except savage says never use smokelsss because it may cause ingery
or death and it would void the warrenty

Hi Testhop.... I think that there is only one... and I think that he is realizing the error of his ways.... :)

Aloha.. :cool:

[charger 1]

ok to all you shooters out there who say useing smokeless in a blacklpowder is safe i ask
why is it no compley except savage says never use smokelsss because it may cause ingery
or death and it would void the warrenty

As I've pviously mentioned in this post theres atleast two other companies I know of that for decades have been doing smokeless

[Maven]

Two questions re the Savage Inline ML: (1) How is Savage's innovative design different from other inlines so as to allow the use of smokeless powder? (2) Isn't Savage's rifle limited to H/IMR 4227 and perhaps XMP 5744 (formerly produced by Accurate Arms)? Btw, I read a review of the second version (with the Accu-Trigger), I think by Randy Wakeman, who praised it on high. However, I wonder whether an unintended consequence will be more tyro's attempting to use smokeless powder in their non-Savage brand inlines, with a corresponding increase in blow-ups and injuries. Maybe I should ask whether such an increase has actually occurred? What say ye?

[mooman76]

I don't know it for sure but I believe the main thing is they made their M/L out of a stronger metal. Todays M/L's are certainly made of better steel than the original ones but is not made as strong as a regular rifle because is is not nessisary for BP.

[charger 1]

On some of the logic I've heard implied and damn it I want gasoline banned. I run diesel engines which are destroyed if gas is put in


BANNED GASOLINE

[wolfspotter]

You notice I've stayed clear of the BP & Smokeless debate.[smilie=1:
I was informed today that what barrel parts that could be found were turned over to a metalergist who formally worked for Winchester for an independent analysis.
Keep you posted.

[Rattus58]

That's pointless. Savage is certainly not going to knowingly use inferior steel, as is anyone else that promotes Smokeless Powder in their rifles. If you try hard enough, you're going to be able to blow up a barrel... and some really try.... :)

Aloha... :cool: :Fire::drinks:

[wolfspotter]

The reason for the independent analysis is because there is a question weather the new inline barrels were made "by" Savage due to demand. Seems they would still have strict standards.

I started shooting muzzleloaders over 30 years ago. "Once" I loaded a CVA double barrel shotgun with four 45cal balls down each tube and touched both off at the same time. :oops: Another mistake was gabbing with fellow shooters when loading and forgetting the BP. I'd like to think I've learned from my mistakes and gained some wisdom.:drinks:

[Rattus58]

Hehe.... ""Once" I loaded a CVA double barrel shotgun with four 45cal balls down each tube and touched both off at the same time."

I saw a dolphin tattoo do that once too.... :grin: :grin: