1911 Recoil Spring Questions

[Boyscout]

I finally sold my Ruger PK 97 and purchased a Desert Eagle 1911. The standard recoil spring is too stiff for my 200 SWC and causes occasional stove pipe jams (5.5 gn Win 231 with standard large pistol primers). I purchased a 14 lb. Wolff recoil spring but it is a good 1.50" longer than the spring that came with it and feels to be stiffer than what the gun came with. The LGS where I bought it said to gradually increase the charge until the gun functioned correctly. The above load works fine in my son's Taurus PT1911 using the above load.

Any recommendations as which direction to go?

[at_liberty]

I trimmed Wolf springs to size in my Kahr and had no issues. That might work for you too.

p.s. Just realized that I am recalling mag springs, not recoil.

[Dale53]

Boyscout;
You can actually weigh the spring in your Model 1911 without tearing the gun down. Go to your local plumbing supply (hardware store, Lowe's or Home Depot) and pick up a PVC coupler of the appropriate size (I am away from my shop - it's a 3/4", I believe). At any rate, after carefully checking that your pistol is empty, put it in firing condition (hammer back, safety off). Using a spring scale (I use an old kitchen scale) put the coupling on the scale and center the barrel. Slowly press down and if you have positioned it properly, you can move the slide back. Check the scale when you are just slightly (and I mean slightly) away from full recoil. That will give you the actual weight of the spring in the gun. You can then compare the spring weights. Trying to judge those weights by feel is not a good way to judge (as you have discovered). This is thoroughly good way to actually know.

I just went through this process after having a red dot mounted on my 1911 slide. That totally changes the dynamic of the slide function and all of those things I learned many years ago about spring weights and particular loads for reliable function just went out the window. I solved my problem and you can too. As you have learned, pistols vary as to their particular requirements. If the pistol is new, it may operate a bit differently after you have several hundred rounds through it, also.

Good luck with your new pistol!
Dale53

[Dale53]

Here is a picture of the coupling I was talking about:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Mueller-Streamline-1-1-2-in-x-1-1-2-in-PVC-Slip-x-Slip-Coupling-429-015HC/100004541#.UgeN2JKTxyI

Dale53

[gray wolf]

If the pistol is new, did you field strip and clean the gun, and re-lube it ?
Your load is .1 under Hodgons Max. and should be about 900 FPS, this should function the slide on any 1911 with a standard 16# spring.
Have you tried any factory loads ?
A new spring is longer than a spring that has been in a pistol. They take a set very quickly and loose close to an inch.
How far is the gun throwing empty cases ?
Are the cases falling at or on your feet ?
If the cases are being ejected 4 -- to 6 feet away from you I doubt it's the recoil spring, Explain what you are calling a stove pipe and how the case looks in the pistol when it happens.
What is a once in a while stove pipe ? 1 out of 10 ? 3 out of 25 ?
Does it happen with a particular round out of the mag.
If a 1911 fired and ejected cases other than at my feet and failed to eject an occasional round I wouldn't be looking at the recoil spring.

[Boyscout]

My stove pipe has the empty in the vertical position with the next round caught by the empty before it chambers. In 20 rounds, I got three stovepipes. Lee manual says 5.5 Win 231 max; Lyman Cast Manual says 6.0 Win 231 max. I've been shooting indoors but the ejection seems to be strong. Factory ammo (230 gn ball) functions flawlessly. Hard to tell when it bounces off the ceiling above the booth or the wall. I've shot both Magtech and Winchester 230 gn FMJ.

I normally load five per magazine and my jams occour on the 2nd or 3rd each time. I shoot either 200 grain Lee 200 SWC or 200 Ranier Ballistics plated (bought some for a Glock). I have put about 200 rounds through the pistol with about 100 being factory. I have have bullets hang up on the feed ramp on other semi-autos but the stove pipe has been a fairly rare occurance for me over the years.

[Shiloh]

That is a brilliant idea Dale!!

Shiloh

[gray wolf]

The extractor tension may be a little week and dropping the round in the ejection port. I have put about 200 rounds through the pistol with about 100 being factory. Did it happen with the factory rounds ?
If your ejection is strong I still don't think it's a spring issue. Is your pistol set up with an internal extractor like the Taurus ? or is it external like some of the S&W 1911,s Do you know how to check for extractor tension ?

[flounderman]

You can crack the slide with too weak a spring. apparently your extractor is not holding the empty until the ejector comes in contact to throw the case out of slide.

[gray wolf]

Flounderman
apparently your extractor is not holding the empty until the ejector comes in contact to throw the case out of slide.
I think we agree on the extractor, that was my thought. If it's an internal standard type extractor it may have to come out of the tunnel a little and Re-tensioned ( bent a little ) It could be clocking a little also from a FPS that isn't tight enough, then again it could be both, not bent enough to be tight in the extractor tunnel and a week fitting firing pin stop.
I was curious about the ejection pattern.
Also for S&G with the slide off, check the ejector,
not the extractor, the ejector, see if it's pinned in the frame ( small pin going through the frame ) most times it catches one leg of the ejector. the ejector should have a leg in front and a leg in back, both are set into the frame. Some of the new guns may only have lock tight being used. In any case check to see that you can't lift one side of the ejector up and down,
indicating a broken leg on one side. A tiny bit of movement is normal as is a slight bit of light under the ejector . Not all have intimate contact with the frame.
If you don't no how to check extractor tension I can tell you how, you may want to remove the extractor
and clean the tunnel out that it sits in. If you need help with that we can help with it also.

[Boyscout]

The extractor is completely inside the frame and the ejector appears to be standard length; it is not extended like some I have seen. I just checked my son's PT 1911 and the extractor and ejector look to be identical in design. The ejection port on the DE 1911 has been cut out more. To answer several questions: I do not get failure to eject and feed with factory ammo; I do know that the reduced recoil spring should only be used with target ammo, the ejector legs look to be in place solid, and I don't mind being asked a bunch of questions.

I will reload about 20 rounds tomorrow at max and go to the range. I will take some pictures of the stove pipes. Again, this is only happening with reduced power target loads. I will load both lead 200 SWC and plated SWC. I will also try them with the new Wolff recoil spring. I try to post them by Tuesday. I didn't get to reload today as I was smelting wheel weights and some linotype "sawdust" I picked up from a printer. He had about 25 lbs of sawdust and linotype shims along with the slugs.

[gray wolf]

OK I guess that is all we can do for now, BUT, you say reduced power target loads ?
the load you quoted is not really a reduced power load.
You would be surprised at to how easy it is to eject an empty case from a 1911.
Dummy rounds with a bullet attached not always so. Depending how the ejection
port is cut. the nose of the bullet can hit the forward end of the ejection port.
Also you say the empty cases hit the ceiling and or the wall of the shooting booth. The empty cases should eject to the right up to about 2 o clock position in a lazy ark and land about 6 to eight feet to your right. not straight up, or hit you in the head or go down your shirt. ( not saying yours do ) I understand it's hard to see an ejection pattern shooting in one of those little booths.

[dmize]

My first 45 ACP was a P90. I had always been in love with the look and feel of the 1911 but had read all the horror stories of 1911's cracking this and breaking that,use buffers don't use buffers etc etc.
Well when I finally dropped a grand on a Kimber I called Kimber. I explained what I was wanting to do and received a proper answer. For me it was a 26 lb spring.
I think you are on the right track with the fact that factory ammo functions perfectly. I wouldn't worry about extractors or whatever.
First I would simply call MRI and if they don't give you the answer you need I would call one of the custom 1911 manufacturers.
And as best I can remember the guy at Kimber told me that when the spring is "right" brass will be about 6 ft away from you.
And even tho it may just be me,I still have that Kimber,and now a Taurus 1911,a Colt 1911,Remington 1911 and even tho its not a 1911 a EAA Witness in 45 ACP. When I shoot I do at times get hit in the head with spent cases. A lot of that has to do with recoil control and not the gun.

[35remington]

Oh heavens, dmize. You don't mean to say you're running a 26 lb spring in a 1911, are you? Tell me why?

[Boyscout]

The Taurus PT1911's function well with 5.3 gn Win 231 and the Ruger PK97 required 5.5 to function consistantly; that is why my "standard" load was 5.5 gn Win 231. I wanted to test the variables that were under my control and within the min/max of published load data I have available. I loaded up 20 of each bullet type and will test it out at the range tonight after work.

The dummy round feeds and ejects fine.

[bobthenailer]

i personaly have never had a use for a spring weight over 20lb in a 5 inch 1911 in 45 acp .
even though i have the WOLFE calibration pack containing all there 5 inch 1911 recoil springs.
the weights over 20 lb are for the 10mm and the likes..
Ive had over 15, 1911 pistols in 9mm , 38 super , 45 acp with and without comps & lightened slides

[gray wolf]

For me it was a 26 lb spring.
26# recoil spring ??? It must have been in your pocket cause it sure wont work in a 1911 shooting 45 acp Please explain
I would also like to know why a 20 # spring is needed, if it's to make a 1911 run with standard 45 ball ammo you need to look someplace else for the problem.

[prs]

Interesting stuff above. About new springs losing length quickly; really?! In general, a well made spring suited to its application should not sack-out quickly at all. But, if it does, then wouldn't that sacked-out spring also be weaker than its original value at very near full compression? I do not know.

I do see others with 1911s work the action with the greatest of ease, as if the spring is quite weak. I am new to 1911s and my two Ruger SR1911s seem to have springs much stronger as cycling by hand is not for the meek or frail. My ejection pattern seems to be at about a 45 degree angle to the right and rear. When I shoot left handed by instinctive method (gun at waist level or so), the empties whiz past my right eyeglass lens. Grey Wolf's explanations of how the extractor and ejector should fit are helpful, thanks.

prs

[gray wolf]

Over the years it has been common knowledge that a new spring will shrink in a short time, not to be confused with loosing it's pull weight.
Other than that I can't explain it as I am not a metallurgist.
Talk was about that ruger was using 18# springs, Why ? I have no idea.
Through the years 16# seems to be what is considered the norm.
People call it the standard, but JMB when he made the original used a spring of lesser weight, 14.5 to 15# as I recall.
Slide fit also has some to do with how tight things are, also the FPS, the original had a square bottom, and more force was needed to draw the slide back.
The carry mode by the army at that time was-- full mag with an empty chamber,
Troops complained that it was to difficult to rack the slide on horse back so the FPS was modified to a rounded bottom ( large radius ) Look at the bottom of your FPS and you can't miss it. I use a square bottom ( very small radius ) which slows down the dwell time just a fraction and perceived recoil and muzzle flip is reduced. I believe the main spring was and still is a 23# pound, some call it the hammer spring. With the square bottom FPS and a properly tuned 1911 45 ACP some find they can even drop the recoil spring to 15# I use a 17# with 4.7 grains of tite group along with a #68 200 grain SWC, this keeps my brass a little closer to me. + my slide is not as tight as some, not loose by any means, but not squeaky tight. Slide fit has little to do with accuracy, some of course, but a good fitting barrel bushing does way more.

I do see others with 1911s work the action with the greatest of ease, as if the spring is quite weak.
And in many cases it is week ( hasn't been changed )
Sometimes it's done with a purpose in mind, as in adjusted for a particular load.
Many things are done to 1911,s by folks that no what they are doing, they make a change and know why they are doing it. You would be very surprised at how many people can't even field strip there 1911,s
let alone do a complete take down, or know how to properly lube it. Some people just don't care. Some do, I guess it's like anything else in this world Eh.

[dmize]

Oh heavens, dmize. You don't mean to say you're running a 26 lb spring in a 1911, are you? Tell me why?

As I said,I heard a lot of horror stories and I spent a LOT of money on that pistol.
I shoot full power 230 hardball loads and have dabbled a bit with 250 grain bullets.
Yup the slide is heavy but I have had no jams or feeding issues what so ever.
I have always tended to side with safety.

[Boyscout]

I ran 6 magazines each of 3 rounds with 200 gn SWC, plated and cast, the stock spring and 5.7 gn Win 231. I had no failures to feed and no stovepipe jams. I also ran 5 rounds of the plated SWC with 5.5 gn Win 231 (original load), and the 14 lb Wolff spring and had no failures. I will back down to 5.6 gns and see if that functions as well with the stock spring.

I paid attention to my ejections and the brass was ejected about 45 degree up and right.

[gray wolf]

Good, now go and have some fun, then again the thread was just getting interesting.

[35remington]

dmize, seriously, you need to knock it off. Please go back to a 16 lb. spring as you risk gun damage with such a super heavy spring. The lower lug feet on the barrel, the slide stop pin and the slide stop hole take a battering from the slide going forward. Maybe other parts as well depending upon how your gun is fitted. 26 lbs. is just nuts.

The gun was designed to be hit by the slide in the area of the recoil spring guide. That's why it's a large, flat area with a lot of steel.

Where it was not designed to be hit is an extra hard blow on the lug feet, the slide stop pin hole and slide stop pin. This distributes a great deal of force in an area ill prepared to receive it. The gun crashes forward when the slide slams home with a spring over 10 lbs. heavier than it was supposed to use.

A 1911 slide runs about 34.3 times as heavy as a 230 grain ball round, which means that the slide tops out at about 24 feet per second, or 16.4 mph if your 230 FMJ runs at 830 fps. That's peak velocity rearward, and the speed remaining when the spring comes into play before the slide hits the frame makes it even less. I can swing a slide a lot faster than that with my arm, which means a 1911 in reality suffers very little from "frame battering" from slide impact with the intended vertical impact surface which is really oversold to the masses as something to worry about. It is not a concern with any normal load. You are worrying about the wrong thing.

You are damaging your pistol far more so than if you were running an overly light spring......because the frame was designed to absorb impact. The areas I described are not. You're running the slide vastly faster forward. Not at all good.

Please look into a small radius firing pin stop instead, run with a 14.5 or 16 lb. spring if you feel the need for slide speed attenuation backward. This is a far better method than your ill advised attempt, which causes more damage than it prevents.

There are more horror stories with heavy springs than light ones, and what you're doing cannot be mistaken for "safety." Go with what JMB recommended. No one knows the pistol better than him. Still.

[Boyscout]

I was already having some fun working up the load that worked best for my pistol. Now I need a good casting session and run at least 500+ 200gn SWC to load up later on. Thanks for all of the help.

[prs]

gray wolf just gave me a most excellent education regarding the FPS. But, I am a relative new bee to these new fangled self reload'n pistols. What does the acronym FPS stand for in this context? I know it has either a square or round bottom. Hmmmm. Firing Pin Spring? Firing pin safety (mine has none; series 70, I think it is called). I bet its something very obvious and I will have egg my face....

gray wolf, springs are odd creatures of physics. I spring set with more preload (more tension at rest) will still have the same power rating per units of additional compression as it does if it were beginning at its unloaded state. That takes a bit a thinking to get past, at least it did for me. But a spring that has permanently deformed from use and/or constant compression? I am not sure it retains its original power rating or not. Makes my head hurt to think about it. ;-) I've put thousands of rounds through each of these two SR1911 pistols, so I may need to order some spare parts.

Following your lead, the barrel to guide fit seems to be excellent, the slide to frame a bit on the goose-loose side. But they seem to hit what they were pointing toward at trigger break; not that I always break the trigger when pointed correctly -- still working on that, reckon I will always be working on that.

Very interesting thread indeed. Thanks to the OP and others!

PigeonRoost Slim

[dmize]

dmize, seriously, you need to knock it off. Please go back to a 16 lb. spring as you risk gun damage with such a super heavy spring. The lower lug feet on the barrel, the slide stop pin and the slide stop hole take a battering from the slide going forward. Maybe other parts as well depending upon how your gun is fitted. 26 lbs. is just nuts.

The gun was designed to be hit by the slide in the area of the recoil spring guide. That's why it's a large, flat area with a lot of steel.

Where it was not designed to be hit is an extra hard blow on the lug feet, the slide stop pin hole and slide stop pin. This distributes a great deal of force in an area ill prepared to receive it. The gun crashes forward when the slide slams home with a spring over 10 lbs. heavier than it was supposed to use.

A 1911 slide runs about 34.3 times as heavy as a 230 grain ball round, which means that the slide tops out at about 24 feet per second, or 16.4 mph if your 230 FMJ runs at 830 fps. That's peak velocity rearward, and the speed remaining when the spring comes into play before the slide hits the frame makes it even less. I can swing a slide a lot faster than that with my arm, which means a 1911 in reality suffers very little from "frame battering" from slide impact with the intended vertical impact surface which is really oversold to the masses as something to worry about. It is not a concern with any normal load. You are worrying about the wrong thing.

You are damaging your pistol far more so than if you were running an overly light spring......because the frame was designed to absorb impact. The areas I described are not. You're running the slide vastly faster forward. Not at all good.

Please look into a small radius firing pin stop instead, run with a 14.5 or 16 lb. spring if you feel the need for slide speed attenuation backward. This is a far better method than your ill advised attempt, which causes more damage than it prevents.

There are more horror stories with heavy springs than light ones, and what you're doing cannot be mistaken for "safety." Go with what JMB recommended. No one knows the pistol better than him. Still.

I am not going to get in a debate over it.
There is a lot that I freely admit to not knowing about 1911's. That number is not something I pulled out of thin air,as I said it was the weight recommended to me by Kimber,the company that built the gun.
Now with that being said,having read what you took the time to explain,in the future I wont be nearly as afraid of the spring pressure or lack thereof as before.

[35remington]

Please don't get into a debate over it, and if you admit not knowing much about a 1911, by any logical extension you also must not know when you've been given really, really bad advice.

Just realize that a 26 lb. spring is so terribly incorrect for the pistol that you risk gun damage, and whoever said 26 was correct at Kimber is so wrong he ought be fired. Of all the spring weight recommendations I've heard for the 1911, this stands as the single most ridiculous recommendation I've ever heard. Please add this information to your 1911 database and stop using that spring.

Action is better than inaction on this particular point, and the correct action is to put a 16 lb. spring back in. The damage you save may be your own.

Read up on the small radius firing pin stop in the meantime.

[gray wolf]

Please don't get into a debate over it, and if you admit not knowing much about a 1911, by any logical extension you also must not know when you've been given really, really bad advice.

Just realize that a 26 lb. spring is so terribly incorrect for the pistol that you risk gun damage, and whoever said 26 was correct at Kimber is so wrong he ought be fired. Of all the spring weight recommendations I've heard for the 1911, this stands as the single most ridiculous recommendation I've ever heard. Please add this information to your 1911 database and stop using that spring.

Action is better than inaction on this particular point, and the correct action is to put a 16 lb. spring back in. The damage you save may be your own.

Read up on the small radius firing pin stop in the meantime.
Please take the advise given to you above.

[Iron Mike Golf]

...What does the acronym FPS stand for in this context? I know it has either a square or round bottom. Hmmmm. Firing Pin Spring? Firing pin safety (mine has none; series 70, I think it is called). I bet its something very obvious and I will have egg my face....

Firing Pin Stop. Pics of the square (M1911) and rounded (M1911-A1) designs:
7916179162

[gray wolf]

Excellent Picture, Clearly shows a flat bottom stop and the newer
( well not so new ) rounded bottom. Note the slight radius on the flat bottom stop,
I believe it's a 7/16 radius. Once the stop is fitted to both sides of the channel in the slide ( use a sharpie as an indicator or dycum ink, ) then make sure the bottom of the stop is even with the bottom of the slide ( disconnect channel )
Then it can be fitted for a nice tight fit into the small Chanel in the extractor.
Be vigilant of the hole for the firing pin, when done the pin should line up with the hole and move freely. You can see by the picture that a FPS like the one shown will impart more resistance to the hammer thus adding a slight amount of dwell time in the cycle. I use a sharpie pen on the hammer face to ensure I have even contact on the hammer. Don't want to egg out the hole for the hammer pin.
Go slow, sometimes fitting a new stop is a little time consuming. Some have taken me 2 hours and my friends Kimber took 15 Min.

[crackshotsdad]

I am not going to get in a debate over it.
There is a lot that I freely admit to not knowing about 1911's. That number is not something I pulled out of thin air,as I said it was the weight recommended to me by Kimber,the company that built the gun.
Now with that being said,having read what you took the time to explain,in the future I wont be nearly as afraid of the spring pressure or lack thereof as before.

Sir, as I am new to this forum and new to boolit casting in general, I find myself wondering if anyone would pay attention to advise I may have to offer. I can assure you that I am not new to the world of 1911's. I have owned, custom built, carried, and competitively shot 1911's for over 25 years. I can promise you that no full size Kimber in .45acp ever left the factory with a 26lb recoil spring installed intentionally. Some companies install fairly hefty main springs in their full size .45 autos, Springfield uses a 28lb m.s. with their I.L.S.

35remington and graywolf are correct. To be honest, I am surprised that your 1911 will function (@100%?) with such a heavy recoil spring. Do us 1911 guys a favor, put a standard 16lb spring in your pistol.... it will love you for years if you do!

[35remington]

To follow up on the comments about the firing pin stop fitting.....

When narrowing the stop so it fits in the side, measure its width beforehand with a good micrometer, then make sure you take the same amount off each side when narrowing it so the firing pin stays centered in the stop. Sometimes only a 10,000th or so of metal removal is needed between a stop that won't slide in place compared to one that fits snugly. The last one I did on my brand new Series 70 Colt stainless took about an hour and fifteen minutes, and I doubt I have much more than that 10,000th of clearance, obtained by careful measurement and going slow.

The whole point is to fit the stop so that it is tight, so don't begrudge the slow and careful approach to metal removal. I use a medium Arkansas stone for final metal removal at the very slow removal rate needed. A tight stop also prevents clocking of the extractor, and is the other benefit besides the radius robbing some of the slide's reward velocity to cushion slide/frame impact.

This is primarily a reliability aid to prevent last round misfeeding due to inertial issues arising from slide/frame impact. Equal buffering from frame impact is achieved as compared to a heavier spring, without the attendant reliability and damage downsides that occur with a heavy spring. Many claim a reduction in muzzle flip due to lower slide velocity when striking the vertical impact surface. A heavier spring cannot offer a similar sensation or benefit.

Examine the stop after fitting to make sure the hammer face does not contact the stop too high, which removes some of the benefit of the small radius stop. If this is discovered, some beveling of the rear face of the firing pin stop may be necessary so the hammer contacts it either full length or somewhat lower on the firing pin stop. Desirable is full contact along its length, and for this to occur some beveling is almost mandatory. Full contact is needed because the hammer is started into motion by the movement of the slide more in a hammering blow than a smooth pull such as obtained by racking the slide by hand. In other words, the slide "pounds" the hammer into movement.

Tests by Leupold indicated that a 1911's most violent motion of 2,000 G's occurs with the initial firing when the cartridge case head impacts the breechface and the slack is taken up between the lugs on the barrel and the lug recesses in the slide. 500 G's occur on both slide/frame impact and slide closing......a big hint that a heavier spring will up the G forces on closing well beyond this figure, which isn't good.

The pictured smaller radius firing pin stop above actually has a smaller radius than JMB's original, and I've best heard one of this size described as a 0.050 radius. You may actually go as small as just breaking the corner so it is rounded rather than square. In so removing this minimum amount of material be advised that some of the light loads that functioned when the gun had its larger radius stop may need to be increased a bit to regain reliable cycling.

For a "ball only" gun you might want to give this a try.......another stop to experiment with is only 15 bucks. This mod is mostly for full size 1911's only. Shorter 1911's will need a larger radius.

[prs]

Firing Pin Stop (FPS), now I get it. I looked it up in my Ruger parts list last night and also saw several at Brownells, but that other company that touts to have "almost everything you need for gun smithing", well they seem to not know about this. ;-)

Thanks for explaining all of that.

prs

[gray wolf]

Go to evolution gun works ( EGW ) they have them, the Ruger 1911 is a series 70
It will be over sized and require fitting, sides and bottom, along with the groove in the extractor. if you don't have a good understanding and are not handy with files and stones you may want to study the the parts before you just jump in.
( it is not a drop in part ) 35 RMINGTON gave some good insight as to some of what is needed to accomplish the job. It's not terribly hard at all, you need to understand what you are doing and what you are trying to accomplish and then go slow, removing and trying and fitting as you go.

[btroj]

Don't use a coarse file, it leads to a sloppy fit. Oddly, it still works. The extractor can wiggle a bit with mine but it sure changes how the gun handles. I am very happy with my barely radiused firing pin stop.

[Moonie]

The only thing I've ever seen regarding a 26lb recoil spring in a 1911 was a 45Super conversion.