Questions on Japanese Arisaka

[Speedo66]

I looked at a Japanese short rifle today. Owner says it was made in Korea prior to WWII. Had mum on it, didn't see any import marks. I think it was a 6.5.

Stock was completely cracked lengthwise, only thing holding it together was the butt plate. Good dull finish, but don't know enough (anything actually) to know if it was original.

I offered $75, he felt it was a gem, wanted $400 for it. I know nothing about them.

What say you?

[Green Lizzard]

the stock is made that way, two pieces rear action screw also helps

[TCLouis]

It sounds like you have a short rifle. ALL 6.5 stocks were made in two pieces with a nicely fit with dovetail joinery to keep them together. I think the short rifles were also Type 38s, but am not sure. Google Arisaka Type 38 for a starting point in your quest.

Mum unground means it was likely a "bring home" prize in someones duffel bag.

6.5X50 chambers can be oblong and very hard on brass.


You may never bridge that price gap. It may be worth his price, may not.

Get it evaluated by a competent gunsmith and do NOT let him "give you a deal" in trade until you learn all about it.

I am a shooter not a collector so anything I own has to sling lead down range so some degree of precision..

[salpal48]

Mostly all japanese stock were 2 piece Due to the type of wood uses and there shortage of Big Lumber . It might have been in 7.7japanese . . You could tell By the marking on the left side Of the receiver What arsenal it was made in.
In the past Few years Jap stuff has been going Up with collectors But there looking for the cream of the crop.
Before you Jump in . There are More than enough books on Japanese Military Items.
an intact mum is a good start. But it's always good to be worry when your spending Big bucks On something You might No nothing about. I.m not an expert on Jap Rifles. but I have been stuck several times in The past.
sal

[Multigunner]

Only one piece jap stock I've run across was on a blank firing drill rifle I used to own.

If the wood swelled with humidity then dried out in storage the joined lower section may have come loose or show a gap at the sides.
If the wood got that damp you may want to have a look at the lower receiver out of the wood before investing in the rifle. I've seen a 1916 Mauser which looked fine on the surface but the steel under the wood was badly eaten away by rust. I've also seen photos of a few No.5 Carbines returned from Malaya that were badly eaten up under the fore end wood.

I've heard of the Japanese having rifles built at captured Chinese armories, mainly to equip Chinese troops that served the Japanese, and IIRC some Imperial Navy rifles built in Korea.


Both the Chinese and North Koreans used many captured Japanese rifles in the Korean war, some converted to 8mm Mauser. Caution on that point, some 7.7 rifles will chamber the 8mm cartridge but the neck is too tight to release the bullet properly on firing. A gunsmith who collects Japanese rifles posted on another board of having blown up a 7.7 rifle when he loaded a 7.92X57 round by mistake.

[flounderman]

two holes in the top of the receiver ring should be 6.5. One hole, should be 7.7. 400 dollars is way out of line in my opinion. The 7.7 had a chrome lined barrel that usually cleans up.

[10-x]

Careful what you believe from gun shop "salesmen". Went in the LGS killing time and noticed they had a few Milsurp's, one was a Type 38 short. Pretty nice rifle, intact mum but no dust cover, listed price was $400+, walked over to the new rifle rack and noticed a jap dust cover behind the new rifles. Ask to see it, "know it all" salesman said," no one knows what this is, came with all these old rifles". Asked for the jap rifle, should have seen his face, the owners face and the lady managers? face when I put the cover on.....LOL. Went back a few weeks later and the have a nicer long 38 with mum and early hooked guard bayonet for ...only $950!!!!!! Oh , almost forgot they have a non import US M 1917 with a stock repair for only $1,495.00!!!!!!!!!

[Mike 56]

I am buying a type 99 rifle with mum, mono pod and dust cover and a type 38 carbine with mum both in nice shape two hundred each.

[Char-Gar]

Two piece Jap stocks do like to come apart. The two pieces are dovetailed and glued. Here is a Japanese Type "I" that had a bad gap between the two halves that I repaired. I ran thinned Acraglas into the crack and clamped it tight. A refinish job and it was done. The barrel and forend have been shortened but what can you expect for $70.00? The bore is pristine and it shoots very well.

[10-x]

I am buying a type 99 rifle with mum, mono pod and dust cover and a type 38 carbine with mum both in nice shape two hundred each.

Mike 56, Now that's a good deal.
Sorry, but whoever cut down a Jap Carcano(type I) is lacking. Turning a $500-$600 rifle into junk, another bubba job.

[Wayne Smith]

Mike 56, Now that's a good deal.
Sorry, but whoever cut down a Jap Carcano(type I) is lacking. Turning a $500-$600 rifle into junk, another bubba job.

At one time they were $25 rifles! Very common for Bubba to practice.

[Char-Gar]

Bubba didn't do this one. The job is very well done. Millions of cheap WWII rifles flooded into this country and were sold for very little money. Folks that needed a rifle could "sporterize" one and have a serviceable rifle. We all did it at the time and nobody thought it was bad thing or that we were "lacking". It is rather small minded to judge people when you have walked in their shoes.

[Mike 56]

Two piece Jap stocks do like to come apart. The two pieces are dovetailed and glued. Here is a Japanese Type "I" that had a bad gap between the two halves that I repaired. I ran thinned Acraglas into the crack and clamped it tight. A refinish job and it was done. The barrel and forend have been shortened but what can you expect for $70.00? The bore is pristine and it shoots very well.

I prefer military rifles in there original configuration. I would be all over a rifle like yours for 70.00. You did a great job on the stock repair. That type 38 does look good shortened. I have always wanted a 257 Roberts and i would have to feel guilty reaming the the chamber on a sporterized type 38. I bought a M28 Fin that had shortened stock for a hundred dollars. It had a beautiful Sig barrel. It was a great shooter. I ended up finding a stock and hardware for it for 50.00. Not long after i restocked it a regular at the range i shoot at offered me 600 for it times were hard so i sold it. I still miss that rifle i wish i had left the short stock on i would still have it. 400 dollars is a little pricey for a type 38 carbine in that condition. If the barrel and action is in real good shape and you think you can fix the stock it might be a ok deal. For 400 you should be able to find a nice type 38 you just have to wait they don't come along every day.

[Janoosh]

To the origional post...I believe the Arsenal is called Mukden...made in Korea for Japan.....most likely occupied Korea.

[MUSTANG]

Japan controlled Korea for almost 75 years, the reason why they were making rifles for Japan before/during WWII:



Korea under Imperial Japanese rule was the culmination of a process that began with the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1876, whereby a complex coalition of Meiji government, military, and business officials sought to subjugate Korea both politically and economically as a protected state after the fashion of international law at the time.[6] Declared an Imperial Japanese protectorate in 1905 (Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905), and officially annexed in 1910 (Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty), the Empire of Japan brought to a close the Joseon Dynasty; though these treaties were ultimately declared "already null and void" by the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea in 1965.[7] Administration of the Korean people continued until Japan's defeat at the end of World War II at which time Korea became an independent nation albeit divided under two separate governments and economic systems. The modernization and industrialization the Japanese brought to the Korean peninsula continues to be the subject of controversy between the two Koreas and Japan.

The "Top Dog" between Korea, China, Japan and at time Mongolia has switched back and forth continually for the last 7000 years.

Mustang

[HighHook]

I have an old bubba type 38 short that I've been trying to restore for a few years. The darn complete stocks go for over 300. Just crazy! All those little parts just add up. Thinking about throwing a 75 Dollar Boyd stock on it and calling it a day.

[Speedo66]

Thanks to all for the informative answers. Curious if by dust cover you're referring to what looks like a piece of the receiver coming back with the bolt? I couldn't figure out what that was all about, never held an Arisaka before.

The gun owner is a private seller. It was a garage sale, and I asked him if he had any firearms for sale. But everything he had was overpriced in my opinion.

[10-x]

Well,please show me an ad for Type I jap rifles for $25.00. Look up the production figures for them too. I know all about the 50's and cheap milsurp rifles, that was then, now is now. Ruining a valuable piece of history is beyond me. For crying out loud, sell the rifle to a collector for the going rate and go buy a new hunting/shooting rifle, scope, sling, lots of ammo and a carry case and still have $$$ left over.

[10-x]

speedo66,
Dust cover is the curved sheet metal piece that covers the receiver and bolt. Yes it moves back and forth with the bolt. BTW, most jap soldiers removed them in WWII as they made noise in the jungle. On type 99's the mono pod was also removed as they caught on vines ect. PM me if interested in more info.

[Char-Gar]

Well,please show me an ad for Type I jap rifles for $25.00. Look up the production figures for them too. I know all about the 50's and cheap milsurp rifles, that was then, now is now. Ruining a valuable piece of history is beyond me. For crying out loud, sell the rifle to a collector for the going rate and go buy a new hunting/shooting rifle, scope, sling, lots of ammo and a carry case and still have $$$ left over.

You need to work on your reading skills. Nowhere was it said, the shortening of the rifle was done recently. It was done many years ago, probably long before you were a sperm. In those days Arisaka 38s and 99s sold for $10.00 to $15 apiece with $25 being a high end price for a type "I". The first Jap Carano I was saw was Oscars Key and Gun Shop in Harlingen Texas in 1958. The price was less than $30.00. It was still there unsold the last time I went in about 1961.

In those days, WWII was just a very bad memory that most folks wanted to forget. I well remember VE Day and VJ Day and the joy when the fathers, husbands, brothers and sons came home alive. My Father was in the Pacific, my Uncle in Europe and my Grandfather in the army stateside. The nation and the world awoke from a terrible nightmare. Only later generations begin to celebrate it and remember it as something good. At the time, it was the most terrible and awful event in human history.

The notion that these millions of surplus rifles coming into the country had any historical or collectors value was a foreign and strange notion. Nobody had any warm, fuzzy feelings about the Japs, their culture or their rifles. I know you are too young to understand this, but that is the way it was and you should withhold such invective that comes from youth and ignorance.

I took a wreck of an old rifle that had set in a closet for many decades and put it back into service as a neat shooting old rifle with some historic value. I too wish it had never been modified, but if it had not, I would not have it. As it is, I get a good old rifle and every time I pick it up, I remember that an Italian ship meet a Jap sub on the open seas and transferred this rifle to the sub for a trip back to Japan. I feel no animas toward folks who did what folks did "back in the day".

The whole purpose of my post was to illustrate that two piece Jap stocks that had separated could be repaired. The purpose was not to set off short horns on some kind of a rant.

[starnbar]

Well said Char-Gar in my family extreme prejudice was used to talk about the japs.

[3006guns]

To the O.P.:

The guy running the garage sale is out of his cotton pickin' mind. I've collected Japanese rifles for years and frankly, I would have laughed in his face then walked away. Why? Despite the interest in these rifles in the last fifteen years or so, that gun would have to have Tojo's fingerprints on it before I'd pay that much. The Japanese arsenal system produced an estimated 8-10 million "Arisakas" from 1905 to 1945 and a LOT of them were brought back by vets. Heck, I've talked to Marines that told me the rifles were stacked high in deuce and a halfs at the point of embarkation. As each Marine filed by to board a transport for home, they were asked if they wanted a souvenir. Thousands more were dumped in Tokyo Bay after the war. Now how "rare and valuable" is it?

There is no such thing as a "short rifle" type 38. There are type 38 and type 44 carbines. There is a "cavalry" rifle that is slightly shorter but the odds of running into one at a garage sale are astronomical. About 99 44/100ths percent of the type 38 (6.5) rifles are of the long variety and with the bayonet fixed they were usually taller than the Emperor's soldiers. The caliber is 6.5x50 (or 51, depending on the ammo manufacturer). Brass is available and it's easily reloaded and fun to shoot.

By the way, I have a type 38 "short rifle"......chambered for 7.62x39. Figure THAT one out! (Hint: the Chinese got hold of it after WWII)

There IS a "long" type 99 that was very early manufacture until the Japanese realized that it was too long. They shortened it to what we know as the "regular" or "ordinary" type 99 that you see at all the gun shows. There are a number of manufacturer variations of these and that's what interests collectors. But even so, there's still a LOT of them out there in closets and attics.

No matter if it's a type 38 or type 99, they were well designed and improved Mauser variants (yes, I can prove that statement). Very sturdy and tough. There are a few look alike training type 38 rifles out there that were never designed to shoot live ammo, so watch out. If it appears to be a very sloppy made rifle with a smooth bore, chances are it's a trainer. If in doubt, ask someone who knows.

All Arisaka stocks are two piece and they are not glued. The butt plate and rearmost action screw keep the two parts aligned and tight. Over time, the wood shrinks revealing a "crack". I have several rifles that are close to "as manufactured" and the stocks look like one piece. If you're wondering why the Japanese designed it that way just ask yourself how big the trees are in Japan. That'll answer your question.

Your offer of 75 dollars was fair and proper. Oh, almost forgot....if the rifle was made at Mukden arsenal, there should be a mark near the serial number on the side of the receiver. It is a circle within a circle and the two are connected by three lines in between. Mukden rifles are a little more valuable but not that much.

[Char-Gar]

Well said Char-Gar in my family extreme prejudice was used to talk about the japs.

My wife's father was in the Marines from Guadacanal to Iwo Jima, neither she nor I have any use for the little yellow esso bees to this day.

[Nickle]

I'll back up the comments on the past. I was born in 1954, and grew up in a gun shop, our family business. Arisakas were dirt cheap and extremely plentiful. Many were long, and got "sporterized". Like it or not, that's the way it was. Not all were done by "Bubba", many were done by shops that bought the rifles in military condition, and cut them so they would sell. You can turn your nose up to that, but you'd be wrong for doing so. See, they knew that unless the rifles were modified, they simply wouldn't sell. I know that's near impossible to fathom by today's standards, but truth is, it is what it is, and true.

I've seen a lot of what would be valuable rifles today get cut, rebarreled, drilled and tapped for a scope, etc. Springfields, 1917 Enfields and Arisakas were considered to be good rifles to modify.

And, yes, I have several Arisakas currently. None in real good collector condition, some permanently modified, some need wood. I modified exactly ZERO of these myself, got them like that.

[3006guns]

By the way, Gun Parts Inc. used to carry replica Arisaka type 38 and 99 stocks (type 38 carbine too I think). Made in China on original Japanese machinery. The wood looks very close to original with the two piece butt and is stained a light reddish orange. I bought one and installed it on a garage sale type 99 which has since become my "shooter". You might check and see if they still carry them.

[Nickle]

Just checked, they do still carry them. $155 plus change, no furniture (bands, springs, buttplate) with them.

[10-x]

No need to get your panties in a wad. I'm talking about TODAY, not the 50's-70's. My opinion is to leave Military rifles alone and I'm entitled to such.

[leadman]

10 X, I understand wanting to leave an old mil-surp in original condition alone at this late date. But I also enjoy shooting the old guns that were modified previously with no guilty feelings. Many of these are not in great condition when I get them so I do my thing to them so they can be enjoyed once again.
I recently had the good fortune to find 3 type 99s in a short time period and was able to assemble an almost complete military issue 99 with intact mum. The other 2 will be cleaned up and enjoyed at the range.

[3006guns]

A couple last comments:

The Japanese chambers are not oversize or "oblong". Why would they make like that? The cause of a bulged case head......always Norma.......is this:

The Japanese were developing the 6.5 mm Nambu light machine gun in the early 1920's. It was a recoil operated weapon and the cases tended to stick in the chamber when the bolt opened, resulting in case separation and a jammed gun. Their solution was to reduce the outside dimensions of the case in order to assist in extraction (there may have been a chamber oiler also). Since having two types of ammo is cumbersome, they issued the undersized ammo for both machine gun and infantry rifle use. The original 1905 case dimensions can be found in records and plainly shows the difference.

O.K.....WWII is over. There is some interest in shooting souvenir Jap rifles, so Norma obligingly copies the sample ammo they have......all of it the undersize stuff. As a result, when fired the case head bulges resulting in the instant rumor that all Jap rifles have "oversize" chambers and are dangerous to shoot. I've picked up several cheaply from former owners who were concerned about such a dangerous weapon and wanted nothing to do with it.

All of the above is information from a 1980's article on the Jap ammo by Al Miller......a very informative read.

[gew98]

I had a wad of nice jap 6,5 and 7,7's. They were uniformly great shooters. My type 38's loved surplus 6,5 carcano bullets I pulled from junk carcano ammo. The 7,7's shot well with any 303 pulls and alot of 30 cal bullets as well. I had a beat up type 38 carbine and had it rebored to 35 rem. It was an awesome brush gun and some old timer where I hunted in western PA took a fancy too it and traded me a nice 98k for it way back when. I have seen more than a couple fake 6,5 cav rifles and a handfull of fake chinese 7,62x39 conversions. Seen a couple fake jap snipers too. Know a guy in dallas tx that has a die so he can "restore" mums for profit. His work is not passable to a collectors eye , but that has'nt stopped him one bit.

[leadhead]

I had a Type I Jap / carcano that had about a 1/4' gap in the stock.
Used a large syringe and injected boiled linseed oil into the gap.
Over a period of a month or so, it closed up to almost no gap at all.
The wood is just dried out and needs oil to swell the wood back to
original.
Denny