Automated Master Caster

[hagel]

New to the list folks and new to the idea of casting commercial volumes of bullets. Previously I've only cast stuff in simple molds by hand. So anyhow I've hooked up with the Mechanical Engineering Dept at the local University and they have agreed to help me out a little bit. What I plan on doing is to buy and automate 3 Master Casters and at least one Starr sizer. I'm also planning on either automating or buying an automated gas check machine. Being new I don't know if all my questions have already been answered here on the forum or not. If so, I'd appreciate it if one of you would let me know before I waste a bunch of your time. If not, then here are a few of the questions:

1. Automating a Master Caster -I was planning on using a single acting, spring return, magnetically dampened pneumatic cylinder controlled by a small computer. Anybody done this already?
2. Does anyone know of either a well worked out, reliable automated gas check punch or has anyone made their own?
3. Have any of you automated a Star luber?

[HATCH]

you need to do some more reading....
There is a star equipment section.

(1) Yep - someone designed a pneumatic manual control setup. I automated it using a plc. To my knowledge there is about 10 units out there running fully automated using the program me and my brother wrote for the PLC
(2) not to my knowledge
(3) Yep - someone designed a pneumatic manual control setup, I automated it using a two smart relays.

The Master caster can do about 720 boolits a hr while the star (provided you feed the tubes) will do about 1200 boolits a hr.

Look for threads that I have started..

[hagel]

I'll bet that's your setup I saw on Youtube. Sure does sound like it. That was the one that inspired me to take a shot at setting up a business. I figure with three of them running I should be able to roll out about 1800 bullets an hour for at least 32 hrs a week. If so, I won't get rich but I just might be able to keep the Government in business and manage to eat every now and then.

I'm going to go look at your threads now.

[Moonman]

Get your FFL's lined up, Federal Taxes, Excise Taxes will be due on output,

Local business license Vendors permit and Sales Taxes.

You're about to meet the American Business Bureaucracy, record keeping,

many business taxing authorities, Zoning regulators etc.

You're near Ohio University, is that the one you're working with,

DO THEY KNOW THAT LEAD IS THE RAW MATERIAL AND BULLETS ARE THE FINAL PRODUCT?

Crazy Politics at that university at times.

Good Luck.
.

[hagel]

Wading through the paperwork now. Yep, it's pretty daunting and they all want money. I did get lucky on the URL though. I am now the owner of Beanhollowbullets.com. Don't bother looking for it yet as I haven't put anything up on the web. In fact I may never. I really hope to do as much business by word of mouth as possible. I'd like to keep things as local as possible.

OU dept of Mechanical engineering. Everyone I've met there has been real nice and about as sane as you can expect at a university. They do know what I'm up to. They aren't totally happy about it though. They would prefer that I started producing a kit to automate Master Casters instead of bullets. They seem to think that there might be some sort of economic development funds available for that. I don't know. If I could produce a kit to automate Master Casters do you think anyone would be interested? My plan is to give one of the machines I'm getting to OU and let them tinker with automating it while I try to follow what Hatch (see above) has done to his. He hasn't answered me back yet but I think that was his machine I saw on YouTube that got me to thinking that I just might be able to cobble together the equipment to start a small scale bullet casting business.

[King6]

You said OU.. Are you in Oklahoma? Reason I ask is that I'm in OK, and the automated master caster is something I'm looking into as well.

[gunoil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbLxgJnBnI

IMO, motor is better than air.

If your casting you need to offer coated and regular lube boolits.

Look a bayoubullets.net

[hagel]

OU is Ohio University in my case. I live just outside of Athens Ohio. Fortunately just far enough that there isn't any code enforcement here other than the County Health Department's septic tank regulations. Of course I also face the same EPA hazardous waste rules that make using wheel weights in commercial bullet casting an impractical consideration.

As to weather using pneumatic cylinders or motors is the best route to go I really don't know. I'm going to present both possibilities to the team of engineering students that will be working on my project. I am biased towards air myself because it has such a long and proven record in industrial automation. The machines Hatch has set up used pneumatics and they are pretty impressive performers. That said, the use of micro computers to control the equipment (probably arduinos or raspberry pies) might make motors a practical option. It's the control system I'm really interested in. It is my hope that using computers will make setup on die changes much easier and help to improve the consistency of the product. At this point though all I have to go on is what I've seen in a few Youtube videos. It will be interesting to see what actually does work in my shop.

[HATCH]

this is my MC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sTJ1mtmqQg

This is a vid of the limit switch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy2GRIWzdiE

This is the latest program which has the provision to do double taps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoTd8uF57so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-opimEGO_4

There are several ones up there that were done by members on here.
Wyman is the one that needs to take most of the credit for the automation of the master caster as without it I couldn't of done my part.

[HATCH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbLxgJnBnI

IMO, motor is better than air.



I think Mihec's setup (yeah the guy the makes the mold) as shown in the video is a better method as IMHO its easier on the equipment. It does however require machining of custom made parts vs the pneumatic setup.

The pneumatic setup requires more air then a cheap pancake compressor can produce.
I can run my master caster on a pancake without any issues but it does run one minute every 6 mins.
I purchased a large air compressor and it runs once a day if I am running the MC :-)

[jmorris]

I built this one around 10 years ago. It just uses two timer circuts, one for pour the other for cool down (if needed).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158478&highlight=Master+caster

[hagel]

Hatch, thanks for the links. Truth is that I had already found most of them. Watching all this stuff on youtube is what got me starting to think maybe I could/should do this. Well, that and the fact that I think we all need to start looking out for each other and taking control of the things that are important to us back from the corporations that own the so called "government" and squeeze us harder every day.

Sorry about the preachin there but each and every one of you know what I'm talking about.

Anyhow, thanks for all the help and I just hope that someday I can return the favor.
There are several ones up there that were done by members on here.
Wyman is the one that needs to take most of the credit for the automation of the master caster as without it I couldn't of done my part.


this is my MC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sTJ1mtmqQg

This is a vid of the limit switch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy2GRIWzdiE

This is the latest program which has the provision to do double taps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoTd8uF57so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-opimEGO_4

[HATCH]

Most of the ones done by members here are done just like mine.
We followed the same road map.

What's funny is wyman is running the original program , like version 2.0. He doesn't own a program cable and i built his controller.

I need to work on the timing some more. i have added flow regulators and they slow down the stroke so it doesn't beat the machine up but it also slows production.
I guess i am at 600 boolits per hr instead of 720.

[hagel]

Most of the ones done by members here are done just like mine.
We followed the same road map.

What's funny is wyman is running the original program , like version 2.0. He doesn't own a program cable and i built his controller.

I need to work on the timing some more. i have added flow regulators and they slow down the stroke so it doesn't beat the machine up but it also slows production.
I guess i am at 600 boolits per hr instead of 720.

I wondered about that. I watched one of yours on Youtube about twenty times and It seemed to me that it was running a 12 second cycle time. I'm not saying that's bad. It got me all excited! I figgure if I can get three of them and a gas check punch to run that fast for at least 6 hrs a day I just might be able to afford a few beans. Hell, I might even be able to afford to smell a piece of bacon every now and then at that rate.

[RoGrrr]

New to the list folks and new to the idea of casting commercial volumes of bullets.<SNIP>


Hagel
Have you checked into Dept of STATE for your ITAR registration ($2150 per year, I believe). Don't get burned unnecessarily.

Look at the Bullet Master. They turn out 2200 boolits per hour.

Curious where you're going to get your lead.

[hagel]

Take a look at my first thread here on CB :New and Clueless

I started that one off by admitting that I didn't really know my *** from a hole in the ground when it comes to casting bullets on a commercial basis. Yea, I have read a lot of stuff and melted a little lead off and on over the years but that doesn't qualify me to try and fool anyone into thinking that I know how to run a cast bullet business. The response I got from the folks on this list is amazing. Sure there are a handful of "Gloom & Doomers" - you can't go anywhere without running into a few of those - but for the most part everyone who has responded to my asking for help and advice have been honest, straight forward and damn helpful. I really haven't run into a better group of folks any where else on the web. Several people chimed in on that thread with good advice on where to get lead.

Just take a look at that thread. I have learned a lot from good people who have obviously "been there and done that". I'm sure you will too.

[RoGrrr]

Hagel
I don't want to be one more G&D'er. I just don't want you to get in trouble with the govt.
I was approached about casting for a range manager when he learned that I have a Bullet Master. He was willing to supply lead to me. I have to say that it was an enticing thought/offer. However, the more I looked into it, the less I wanted to do it. ITAR requires the registration if you make, for sale, just ONE bullet.
Thanks, but no thanks. I've had too much of that danm govt during my life and want no more interaction with it.

[King6]

Hagel, how's progress?

[hagel]

I have received my casting manual from Magma and I expect the first machine to arrive within the next two weeks. I meet tomorrow with my SBDC person. We are hammering a business plan/proposal together and expect to submit it to the BVR at the end of the month. I have to meet with the head of the ME department at OU next week to start setting up the presentation I need to do to the engineering students that will end up working on the automation and control systems for the casters.

Casting butt loads of bullets and shoving them out the door is probably going to be a lot less complicated that this phase of the deal. Of course I will still have to deal with BATF, IRS, EPA, ITAR and god only knows what other government mooch. Isn't life grand!

Seriously, a lot of you guys on this list have been really helpful so far and I imagine that will continue. I hope it does and I hope that soon I can start paying it back. I need to automate the casters, the Starr luber sizer and I am hoping to build an automated gas check maker. I am also thinking really hard about building a combination safety shroud-exhaust air management system for the Master Casters. I don't want to get splattered with melted lead (again - don't ask) and I don't want to poison myself. I also am too damn cheap to let the heat pump and the melting pots fight it out all summer long and just throw away all that heat in the winter so there will probably be some way to insulate the ducting in the summer and recover the heat in the winter. In short, I hope to be able to help you guys address some of these problems. No telling just how long any of that will take though.

[HATCH]

Depending on what your casting you can adjust the cycle time.

On 105 38 wc i have run a 8 second cycle time.
When i was first setting it up i had a it running 10 seconds casting a 220 gr 41 mag. Ran it for a long time till i got to rewriting it to fix bugs.

I thought about getting a expansion board and having multiple run times based on inputs.

I might do a change that adjust the overall run time bases if double tap is turned on.

[hagel]

The big reason I'm working with the engineers at OU is that I hope they can set up one of these new, cheap little micro computers to run the system. This would (theoretically at least ) offer the opportunity to quickly and easily change parameters. These computers (they'll probably want to use an Arduino) can use a standard USB memory stick to hold the software that runs them. Hopefully this will mean that to change a setup on a machine all I'll need to do is swap out the die and the memory stick and be up and running on a different bullet.

We'll see how it all works out.

By the way Hatch, is it all right if I give the kids at OU your contact info? There is supposed to be 5 of them on the team. I'm sure that if they could talk to you it would make their job easier. After all, there is no substitute for experience and you have plenty of that.

[HATCH]

Yeah that's fine.

[hagel]

Thanks Hatch! I really appreciate that. I'm sure the kids in the ME Dept will too. Just so you know my presentation, that's the song and dance I have to do to recruit 5 of them to work on this project, is basically this:

Hi. My name is Bill. I'm a gimp. I've been a gimp for over 30 years. I have Ankylosing spondylitis (short explanation of exactly what that **** is). I need to set up a small bullet casting business so I can have some way to make money as I continue to get more gimped up. You get to help me do that by automating a magma Engineering Master Caster (show them a short clip of one being operated manually).

Then I show them a clip of your machine chugging along and discuss what I want to see in the way of using a micro computer to control it.

That's pretty much it.

Now after they have their team put together things'll get interesting. I'll bet you anything that some of them will want to bug you about just what you did and what you have learned from it. Hey, I just had a thought. Why don't I tell them that they have to contact you through this thread? Do you like that idea? You and everybody else who's following this might just find that entertaining.

Get back to me and let me know what you think. We'll do what ever works for you.

[HATCH]

You want it as simple as possible.
Why reinvent the wheel?

either use a plc or it can be done with relays. Would take about 6 relays but then you can adjust on the fly with no computer.

[HATCH]

Relays allow easier changes but also limit what you can do.
For example, double tap. i am sure it can be done with only relays but its really just few lines of code with a plc.

There are other options that i am thinking of doing with the plc but right now haven't had the time.
I can barely keep up with supplying my dad with ammo because he keep buying new calibers and new guns....

In progress
38/40
32/20
22 tcm

[hagel]

You see now, this is why I'm on here. You have over 10 years of experience with your system. It's kind of hard to argue with that.

The whole micro computer idea comes from two reasons. First, they are really cheap these days so they might actually beat out PLC or relays on price. Won;t know that until we start pricing out the components. The second has to do with the molds. When you are casting manually your nano technology, bio-molecular computer and sensor system, that being your eyes and your brain (mine happens to be powered by caffeine), does a whopping gob of split second computations/adjustments to things like pour time, cooling time and probably a lot more that you think. All those adjustments vary from one mold to another. In other words, casting 110 grain, 30 cal plinkers is a lot different from casting 220 grain 45 ACP SWCs. You don't really think about it when you're doing it. You just know what you're looking for and you adjust what you're doing. The thinking is that we can set up a simple program that looks at some of those things you look at without thinking about them. Things like pour time, distance you move the mold so the fan hits it, how long you let the fan blow on the sprue before it frosts up, how far and how hard you move the mold to the end of the stroke, double tapping to knock the bullets loose and all that stuff. Then you adjust the time for each one of these operations for each mold and maybe even for some alloys and save that particular program on a memory stick that is labeled to match up with the mold and alloy combination it was set up for. That way when you change out a mold all you need to do is stick the right memory stick in the USB port and hit run.

So, are you saying that I'm thinking way too hard on this? Oh, and just so you know, if I am it wouldn't be the first time. Don't get me wrong now. It's not like I'm a big fan of complexity or anything. At the end of the day I just want the casters to work and work right.


You want it as simple as possible.
Why reinvent the wheel?

either use a plc or it can be done with relays. Would take about 6 relays but then you can adjust on the fly with no computer.

[ProfGAB101]

There is a small processor board called the Beagle Bone (black) there are expansion boards (capes) that are designed for machine automation. There is a group of the LinuxCNC developers that are porting LinuxCNC (formerly called EMC2 ) to this platform. This is a super easy adaptation since you are not doing coordinated movement of multiple axis. The BBB is smaller than a Arduino Mega but has a full 1gb ram IIRC. LinuxCNC has Classic Ladder which is a software PLC and HAL which is the Gordian knott which ties everything together.

LinuxCNC is free - there is a very active user mailing list and IRC channel ( #LinuxCNC on freenode.net ) and the group is eager to help solve issues.

[HATCH]

The plc i used is under $80
i already have a working program ($50 donation to 45nut).

Its a proven design used by multiple users. I would love to see a different approach.

i have cast 90 grain boots to 255 grain boolits with no program change needed.

I only added the double tap feature because i got a hollowpoint mold and needed it.

I have found myself adjusting the flow control valves to slow the strokes down according to the molds. But this isn't really needed. I just slow it down to limit wear and tear.

What i would like to see is air tappers at the bottom knocking the boolits/sprues loose.

[hagel]

I knew it! I was way over thinking this thing! See, now this is what happens when you know just enough about something to be really dangerous.

Thanks Hatch. You just told me several things that really put my mind to rest. I'm not going to argue with you and your years of experience. I really had no idea that the PLC route was so inexpensive.

Your desire to have a tapper at the bottom is something I had already thought about. I was thinking of a simple solenoid attached to a piece of thin, somewhat flexible rod with a small, replaceable bumper of some kind on the end that whacked the sprue plate retaining bolt head a few times at the end of each stroke of the mold. I figure that way you have your bearing surfaces that are getting whacked easily replaceable.

Is there any reason you want it to be air powered instead of using a solenoid? I was thinking that the solenoid could fire faster than an air cylinder and thus not slow the whole process down as much. Once again though I don't really have enough experience to know that is the case.

Now as for a different approach, I'll be sure to point out ProfGAB101's comments on the Beagle Bone to the ME crowd that will be working on this project. I don't find it surprising that someone has developed a micro computer that is adapted to this sort of task. I just don't have enough experience in the area of machine automation to know what it is. I really appreciate the info.

[EDG]

Manage the ME project efforts very closely. The kids maybe very sharp but lacking any practical experience. If they goof or go down the wrong trail you can lose a lot of time and maybe waste the project. One potential problem with a lot of university profs is they go right from HS though the university and never work in industry.
They are very strong on the theoretical but not so much on the practical.

[hagel]

I used to work at OU. I've seen this in operation. I hope to get my hands on three Master Casters. I will probably set one up exactly like Hatch's with the addition of a tapper. The other one will go into use manually as soon as I get it just so I can get some experience and start supplying a limited amount of bullets to the store I'll be dealing through. One of the students that will be on the team has some real world experience and is pretty level headed. One of the ME profs is an avid reloader.

My hope is that the machine I set up like Hatch's will serve as a basis for comparison. What the come up with will have to perform better and present some advantage or everything they have done will get stripped of and canned and I'll end up with three just like Hatch's. I will watch the students to make sure they don't screw up the machine they are working on to the extent that it can't be set up that way.

In short, I realize that I will be herding cats with this project and that is just the nature of the game. The program in the ME department has been running for a few years now though. One recent project they did over a two year span of time was to automate the packaging line of a local small brewery. They got the job done so I know they can produce results. I'll just have to work with them so they produce satisfactory results.

[hagel]

I just got my grant approved on Tuesday and I had my first meeting with the engineers on Wednesday. The ball is rolling now.

[Brenden]

Have you seen this video yet, another take on automating the master caster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TWNmgEMnM

[HATCH]

I have watched that vid a bunch of times. IMHO its a great design and doesn't beat up the machine at all.
If money wasn't a option then that would be the way I would go.
Woudn't have to deal with air or anything.

[hagel]

I had to do a presentation to the ME students to recruit 5 of them for the Master Caster automation project. What I did was show them three videos; one of the Master Caster being run by hand, one of Hatch's machine and the one of that German machine you're talking about. Now don't get me wrong here, that German machine sure is slick, but I showed them that video to illustrate what not to do. The guy who put that together spent around 3000 euros doing it. At today's conversion rate that's about $4,000. I did like those solenoids used as tappers at the end of the cycle though. Might have to do something like that.

[kweidner]

Good luck on the process. I applied for my FFL in march and got it last month. Itar takes 6-8 weeks btw and is 2250 not 2150. Fill out online just do a google search for 2032 form.

[hagel]

Thanks for the info on the ITAR. I haven't done anything on that yet other than be disgusted at its existence. I don't waste much time talking to politicians but I'm afraid this just might prompt me to write to a few of them. The Republicans are always blowing BS about how they are for small business and against big government. OK, well if that's true then why haven't they gotten rid of this **** yet?

Now don't get me wrong I really don't care what part affiliation anyone has and I'm not trying to start anything on this list but facts are facts. I got fed up with both parties over 20 years ago and changed my registration to independent. I never miss the chance to vote. I don't care how anyone else votes but I do believe that anyone who doesn't take this civic duty seriously doesn't have the right to complain about much of anything.

The ITAR is the same price if you sell 1 bullet or a billion of them. That makes it a regressive tax. Regressive taxes on business stifle the entry into the market by start-up businesses. In other words it favors the big producers over the small ones. That is a really stupid policy position for a supposedly capitalist society. Besides that it is a defacto tax levied by an appointed official that has the force of law. I have some pretty serious constitutional reservations about that. Yes, I know, there are plenty of other examples of that and I don't want to start talking about the IRS and income taxes on this list. Seriously, please don't talk about the IRS and income taxes here. it just isn't the right place. That said the ITAR really does affect many of the people on this list directly and serves to discriminate against a particular type of business.

You know, when I was in the army it was pretty rare when I had ammo or any component thereof on my person. I was always wearing my skivies though, pants and shirt and boots too. Seeing as how these are items that are more commonly found in use by military personnel why doesn't the State Department tax businesses that make them?

OK, I thing the steam pressure has come back down to acceptable levels. None of you need to waste the time to respond to the **** I just flung out there. I am going to write to my congressman about the ITAR though. Who knows, maybe they haven't done anything about it before because no one else has bitched at them about it.

[RoGrrr]

<snip> Itar takes 6-8 weeks btw and is 2250 not 2150. <snip>


Well, CREP ! They just raised our taxes AGAIN ! Them greedy BESTRADS ! Darn....
I mean DEMN !

[hagel]

Just got a call from Eric at Magma. Machine #1 shipped today. It is coming in with a 9mm conical and a 170 grain gas checked 357 mold. I need to call Larry tomorrow about some Gator Checks.

Speaking of gas checks, have any of you guys made any out of beverage cans? If so, shot any of them?

[hagel]

The first Master Caster arrived today. This is the one that goes to the ME students at OU for a few months. I meet with them next Wednesday for the second time. They are going to present what they have learned from their research into various methods of powering and controlling these machines. I talked to the lead student on the team last Wednesday. He had pretty much come to the same conclusion as Hatch on powering the machine. Linear actuators are too slow and geared motors are too expensive so I think they will decide to go with an air cylinder. They will probably go with an Arduino mini computer for the control but they might still use a PLC emulator program on it. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see what they come up with and even more interesting to see how well they can make it work.

[HATCH]

You really need to cast some first so you get the hang of it.

[HATCH]

Would be cool to get a touch screen display to adjust programming.

[hagel]

Sure wish I could. No can do though. Part of the deal with OU is that I give them a machine ASAP. This project is a big deal to the senior ME students. So I have to turn it over to them now. Remember though, I'm going to get two more machines. Well, at least I might get two more. I pulled the first one out of the box Friday evening and looked it over. Looks like a fine little machine. Thing is though, I think I can double the production rate on it without adding any electro gizmos at all. Need to get the lathe and mill in and running first though.

[hagel]

I don't know about a touch screen display. I was just hoping to be able to get the thing plugged into a laptop. In any case I do agree that it would be slick to have a display of some kind that made interfacing with the machine easier. I made a big deal of that when I had the first meeting with the students. This damn disease I've got is liable to lock me up in the garage at any time. That alone will be hard enough. I sure don't want to be stuck there with a bunch of machines that are hard to get along with.

I'll bring up the idea of the touch screen this Wednesday when I meet with them again.

Say Hatch, is that PLC code still available for $50? If so I'll ask the students if they want a copy of it as a starting point. All of them are pretty computer savvy though so they might have already figured it out. BUt if they think it will help them do a better job I'll be happy to get it for them.

[HATCH]

Yeah donation to 45nut

[hagel]

Well Hatch after two weeks of looking very hard at all the alternative possibilities my group of five ME students came to the conclusion that you have it pretty well worked out. That means PLC and air. They are looking at what I think is a pretty innovative control idea though. Their idea is centered around controlling the speed of the machine based on the temperature of the mold at the bottom of the stroke. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

The physical configuration of the machine may turn out a little different. Do you know if anybody has repositioned the handle on the shaft roughly 1/2 of the total distance it travels in the stroke (that would require repositioning the stop block for the handle as well) and using the cylinder in a vertical configuration to actuate the machine by pulling on the lever instead of mounting it behind the machine in a horizontal configuration like yours? I would like to have it set up that way to reduce the overall size of the machine since I am going to end up with a lot of equipment in my shop.

[HATCH]

No_1 made a new handle that is hooked to his cylinder.
You can make a replacement handle and have the cylinder be vertical on the bottom of the machine. But if you do this then you loose manual control.

You aren't saving that much space and imho would be stupid to remove the manual feature.
Do you plan to dedicate a machine to only running one mold?
If you are wanting to add features them add a level sensor to the lead pot. Write the code to detect when the lead got low and shut the machine off. wire in a pid contact to the plc to start when the lead got.hot enough.
Also use a second limit switch at the bottom of the stoke.

Originally the design was for two limit switches but I made it work with just one.
If you ran two switches you could do more with the programming.
Example...
On the return stroke if top switch didn't close in 30ms after air was turned off then run the 'mold clear' program which basically would turn the air back on to run the mold to the bottom again. This would free up any stuck boolits. Have it have a cycle count the limited it to two attempts to clear before shutting down machine.

I got more ideas but right now i am riding in a car doing 85 mph, the wife is driving and its 10:40 at night.
Needless to say its like being on the worst ride at Disney... Scared ****less

[hagel]

I have a real hard time riding in the car when my wife is driving.

Lead level sensor - yep, that is a real good idea. We talked about it last week. One of the students checked the melting point of brass and confirmed it to be way higher than lead. THe idea is to have it set up so it will trip a switch at some minimum height and sound an alarm so I can feed it some more lead. It could also shut the machine down.

That two limit switch idea sounds like a real winner to me. It could solve the stuck bullet problem simpler than any way I can think of.

As far as the vertical cylinder goes I have an idea that might make that important. Attaching the cylinder to the original handle is a pretty dumb idea though. If you look at your machine you'll see that it requires a much shorter throw cylinder to run it than you would need if you were using the lever that you would normally pull by hand. I finally figured that one out by watching your machine again.

[kayak1]

For a home setup I understand automating a master caster. But for commercial operation doesn't it make more sense to pickup the proper equipment? The equipment that has been designed for the duty cycle and designed with the lead pre heat etc. the commercial casting machines are a continues forward operation. Where they just increment forward without a violent change in direction, IMO they shouldn't where out as soon and already do what you need.

[RoGrrr]

kayak1
I've been watching this thread from the beginning and have been wondering how his MC is going to hold up running commercially. Yes, some on here are running with the air cylinder but they seem to beat the crep out of themselves at the ends of the strokes in both directions. I'd install some sort of a shock absorber/dashpot to soften that. But what do I know ? ? ?
I have a BULLET MASTER that was built in the 70s and it is still running bcuz nothing on it beats anything else on it.
I'd like to see hagel's machine when he gets it running and since he's just a few miles down the road from where I live maybe he will invite me to see it and chat about it. I'd been toying with the idea of casting some as a side business but not sure if fighting the red tape is worth it.


For a home setup I understand automating a master caster. But for commercial operation doesn't it make more sense tipi pickup the proper equipment? The equipment that has been designed for the duty cycle and designed with the lead pre heat etc. the commercial casting machines are a continues forward operation. Where they just increment forward with out a violent change in direction, IMO they shouldn't where out as soon and already do what you need.

[hagel]

I was kinda hoping you might think that. Exactly where are you located anyway?

Now as for the MC beating itself to death, well I'm more than a little concerned about that myself. Still, Hatch's machine has a few miles on it. How about it Hatch, has your machine beat anything apart yet?

[kayak1]

Please don't get me wrong, I would love one. I would also love to watch one of them run for a few hours. I just wonder how they will do in a production shop.

I would think that once you have 8 molds running (at once) the cost has to be more then the cost of a single Mark 7.

[HATCH]

I have had to replace the return spring because lead got on it but that was my fault. I was too lazy to install a shield.

Nothing has broken yet and to my knowledge there are around 10 of these setups running.
My bro robert machine has over 100k boolits cast on it and still looks new. Wyman cast 1500 a week and has for over a year.
Yes i know a commercial caster would do 15k a day per caliber but i know Carolina cast boolits doesnt do that many per day well not every day.

The problem with a commercial machine is you need 8 molds per caliber. Thats 75 each.
You can get magmas sorter but it only works if your boolit weights are about the same.

I guess i have about 30k cast on my machine.
My setup runs exactly how it would run manually. Same amount of force.

If i were to go into business casting, i would do the obsolete calibers, well maybe hard to get. Like 32/20, 38/40, 44/40, and other cowboy action calibers. Yes there useless demand but also there is less competition too.

And sorry if i made mistakes typing bury i am on my phone and 1/2 asleep.

[hagel]

Well depending on where you are maybe next summer you can come and watch mine run. By then I plan on having three MCs and a Star luber sizer automated. I also hope there turns out to be enough demand to force me to buy one of the commercial machines. Only time will tell on that one.

[kayak1]

I am working on a nose down collator of the star if it works out I will share the setup. After that I will look at the star automation. I would love to see how you automate it.

I currently have two master caster molds, I just need to find a used master caster that needs some tlc.

[HATCH]

I already automated my star but i use tubes to feed it

[hagel]

I figured you probably had. Obviously I need to do the same. I don't know when I will get mine in. I need to tile the upstairs of the garage, run a lot more electricity to the garage, run water over there and install sprinklers before I can really get going on the machinery. Checking the Honeydo list I see that I need to finish painting the house, replace the walkstones with a concrete sidewalk and finish converting the septic tank aeration system from the Jet 700LL to one of these bubbler systems. Might throw a car port in there too but I'm kinda hoping to skate a little while on that one.

No rest for the wicked.

Hey, I'm getting a small mill from HF. Really just a glorified short shaft drill press with a two axis slotted milling table. I'm also getting an 8"rotary indexing table with a tail-stock to go with it. Anybody on here ever make their own bullet collimator?

[ProfGAB101]

I am using an Arduino for my Star Lubber automation. It has a 4 line by 20 Character display which will show Temp and count. The sizing cycle is driven by a 640 in/oz Nema 34 stepper motor geared down. I will likely be adding a low lube sensor and some other jam detection sensors. Its mostly completed, but I have been holding out for some sort of collator to feed it. ( I'll post picks once I dig it out, I'm in Colorado and have major water damage issues, walls ripped open, ceilings ripped open - Insulation everywhere it seems.)

As for your lead level sensor in the pot - it is not needed. This is simple math. since your fill time will be consistent you should be able to weigh the 2 bullets + the spru and know how many cycles it will take to drop the level in the pot to a given percentage (the lowest level you can go before adding metal will freeze the pot) - a simple cycle counter in count down mode can trip an add metal alarm.

Want to be really smart - have the counter trigger a conveyor to drop in 1lb ingots every X# of cycles.

Now all these additions require tweaking the cycle parameters - which is why for the pot I'd say an Arduino is not good. You need something that makes it easy to load a run profile for the mold your using. On my star lubber that is not an issue - the only thing that changes is the lube temp depending on what lube I am using and while the arduino is measuring the temp - it does not control the temp.

This is kinda why I brought up LinuxCNC - Infinite flexability - and your "cnc" program can be the settings for each mold. Since your not trying to tap holes or cut circles LinuxCNC will run fine on any dumpster grade throw away PC and use the parallel port for control outputs.

[hagel]

First off: really sorry to hear that you got slammed in that storm. The Rockies are really pretty. Back when I was driving semi I used to make sure I got a load heading to Denver this time of year just so I could see them in the fall. Really nice to look at but a damn tough place to live. My heart really goes out to you.

Second: Mark, the lead ME student on the team that is working with me on automating the MC, is definitely going to want to pick your brain. He is really determined to use an arduino to run something.

Best of luck on your recovery efforts. Seriously, if I didn't live so damn far away I'd give you a day of my time. We're pretty lucky living here in the hills of SE Ohio. We do get our share of storms that take out to power and occasionally flood a few roads for a day or two but we don't get squat compared to the hammering you guys get. Drop me a line when you either get it all straightened back out or if you just need to take a break from it all.

[hagel]

Hatch, you are one really creative guy.


I already automated my star but i use tubes to feed it

[ProfGAB101]

A PLC and a Arduino share the same problem - to make changes you need to attach a cable and use an external device to edit/change/upload a new program. Not only that, much of the software needed to do this is not non-geek user friendly.

Now you could take an Arduino Mega, add an ethernet/SDcard shield and add another display/menu button shield - but by that price point you could have bought 2 PLC units. Now if you go and draft a group from the EE program they could breadboard an Arduino circuit, add all the required sub circuits then once this is tested - design a single PCB that is ready to interface with the air solenoids and sensors and send that design to a PCB fab ( maybe in China, {don't shoot the messenger} ) and get back a batch of ready to use boards.

It all depends on what your stated goals are. I would want to have a near turnkey kit that could be sold to Master Caster owners that would be a simple bolt on as much as practical. Maybe offer a clamp on drill guide for locations that users need to modify the chassis etc. on a refundable deposit basis.

[hagel]

That's pretty much what I'm hoping this one student that's essentially running the project will end up doing. I think it might make a good little business for him. Of course I'm hoping I might find something to do with it too. Mostly though, I'm just hoping to end up with a shop full of really reliable, cheap to run and relatively high output machines.

[hagel]

Update:

After careful analysis the ME team has decided on the best candidate for a data pick off point to supply a control input for the PLC. I think they are probably right but I don't want to get into speculation until they have had a chance to test it out. What I can say is that these guys are going at it tooth and nail. I'm really impressed by their enthusiasm and professionalism. I think we will all be excited by their ultimate result. Once they have the first machine up and running I throw together a Youtube video.

[Tazza]

This post is quite interesting, I'd like to see how your team's conversion goes. Most of the automated systems i have seen on this and other sites are basically the same, but everyone puts their own finishing touch to them.

I have an older model MC that i bought off ebay quite a few years ago. I have cast about 30,000 9mm 125gr conicals with it, sadly all by hand. I have been toying with the idea of automating it for a while now, i just need to get on with the job between house renovations. There have been quite a few good posts about how others have done it, i just need to make the decision of which way to go.

Hopefully i can get mine to run as well as the others i have seen featured on this site.

[hagel]

Right now the team of ME students are setting up an experiment. One of the Profs is letting them use his strain gauge. This should allow them to determine exactly how much force is required. Knowing that will allow them to determine the air cylinders required to pour the lead and throw the lever. It will be interesting to see if they arrive at the same specifications as Hatch's machine or come up with something different.

In the meantime, Environmental Health and Safety (yes, OU has bureaucracy too) keeps blowing them off so they haven't gotten approval to melt lead on campus yet. My what a nanny state we have become. I remember hitting the oxygen lever to blow the asbestos out of the way so I could cut up reaction vessels from a defunct chemical plant when I worked in an industrial scrap yard in Elyria. Of course that was way back when America actually made more than ********.

Anyhow, if the powers that imagine themselves important ever let them get on with it I am expecting them to do well with this. They're putting a lot into it. Now assuming they do I hope to offer kits so you and others can do the same to your MCs. We're all busy and most of us aren't as talented in the automation area as Hatch is so a little help in the form of a box with everything you need including instructions would be pretty cool.

[HATCH]

I need to clarify some things...

Wyman is the one who really got the ball rolling.
He is the one who designed the pneumatic operation of the master caster.
He is the one that picked out the air cylinders.
All I did was automate what he designed.
And to be honest I wasn't the first one to automate a master caster. Jmorris built a mc from scratch and automated it .
No_1 automated his using hydraulics and relays for timing.

I wouldn't of done the automation if my brother No_1 hadn't automated his and if wyman hadn't done manual pneumatics on his. It was the combination of both their efforts that made it possible. So it isn't just me.

Just like the automation of the star sizer. Again wyman did the pneumatics and I just automated it. In fact that was total old school with two relays (smart).

You need to tell the students that the force required to operate the machine changes once the machine is at operating temp.

[hagel]

I need to clarify some things...

Wyman is the one who really got the ball rolling.
He is the one who designed the pneumatic operation of the master caster.
He is the one that picked out the air cylinders.
All I did was automate what he designed.
And to be honest I wasn't the first one to automate a master caster. Jmorris built a mc from scratch and automated it .
No_1 automated his using hydraulics and relays for timing.

I wouldn't of done the automation if my brother No_1 hadn't automated his and if wyman hadn't done manual pneumatics on his. It was the combination of both their efforts that made it possible. So it isn't just me.

Just like the automation of the star sizer. Again wyman did the pneumatics and I just automated it. In fact that was total old school with two relays (smart).

You need to tell the students that the force required to operate the machine changes once the machine is at operating temp.

Thanks for clearing all that up. Now that you put it all together like that I think you may have put that out there before just not as simple and direct. I'm one of those people who needs whacked up side the head sometimes to get it straight. Sort of like this old SR500 I used to have, had to give it a good solid kick or two and then it would run.

So, hats off to Wyman, No-1 and you. You're definitely more talented than most of us. Most importantly you got off your cans and did something. The rest of might like to do something like that but need a lot more help in the right direction. I know I do. I run into something I don't know how to do and I usually just get that "deer in the headlights" stare, freeze up and don't do a damn thing. Pretty irritating trait to have to live with but also pretty common. One of the saddest things about being intelligent is that we can grasp how lame we are.

I really like the simplicity of how you did the Star. I intend to set mine up that way and I'll be asking you a few questions when it's time to do that.

Now when you say that the force needed to run the MC changes as it warms up do you mean that it takes more force to pull the lever or less?

[HATCH]

Everything heats up.
Unless you run a loose guide rail it will bind after heated up.

[hagel]

Everything heats up.
Unless you run a loose guide rail it will bind after heated up.

Hmm, well that makes sense. Lots of things do expand when heated. How about the lead valve? The ME guys are getting ready to do a static test on that using a thing called a load cell. Does it get stickier or looser when the pot is full of liquid lead? I can't wait until my second MC gets here. Should be just under two months now. You were right, it would have been real nice to get to play with one of them before I turned over to the students. Would have probably cut down on the stupid questions too. Well, maybe it would have.

[HATCH]

No the lead drop is fine. Only think that I have noticed is that if you start with a full pot and adjust the lead pour timer when its full, you will need to be careful when it gets low.
The amount of lead that flows out of the valve varies according to the amount of lead that is in the pot.
A full pot will flow faster then a pot that is 1/2 full. So when you adjust the lead pour timer you need to make sure that you have enough lead in the sprue to cover it when the pot gets low.
Also a fuller sprue comes off the easier compared to a smaller sprue.
I have made the mistake in the past on having just a little chocolate chip size spure but then when the pot got low I would end up with holes in the base and lighter boolits.
The some of the boolits would look right but when you weighed them they would be light.
So from now on I just make sure I have a nice full sprue.

Now something else you need to consider is that you need to secure a long term lead source right now.
I have 2500lbs but I am gonna buy another 2K lbs.
That would set me up for the next 20 years or so.

[RoGrrr]

Hatch
Do you use a digital timer or is your time period adjusted with a pot ?
I have a digi timer which will allow for repeatability and ease of setup when I change to a different boolit.
I'd also like to be able to set the timer up so I can change pour time on the fly. i.e.: be able to cast 9mm and 45 on the same carousel.
Oh, wait. You guys are talking about Master Casters and I have a Boolit Master. Sorry. I guess I'd have to have something like a PLC or control the BM with a laptop or tablet.

[hagel]

Looks like Victory White Metals, 6100 Roland Avenue in Cleveland, Ohio might end up being my Go To source for alloy. Of course I keep watching the Gov Liquidation site too. I tried to get one of the batches they had at Louckbourne last time but I got beat out. I did end up with about 4000 yards of 6000# test one inch OD webbing. Still not sure what I'm going to do with that but if any of you need any I can sure give you a deal. Got to move that **** to the upstairs of the garage this weekend so the wife can get her car in the garage.

[hagel]

I really would like to get up there to see your machine. Won't be any time soon though. I'm swamped.

[Tazza]

I found that my MC in standard operation does get tighter as the mold expands, when at operating temperature it drags a little on the rails. I believe if you adjust it slightly afterwards, you can adjust it so its not too tight, it's only the smallest amount. Once adjusted, you won't need to mess with it unless you change molds.

I believe the bulk of the force that is required is to cut the sprue, not to get it to move past the guides too. I have actually put a little synthetic oil on my guides, makes it run really smooth, only takes a drop every few hundred rounds.

With the drive cylinder, don't forget that you can increase or decrease the air pressure to get more or less force up to the limits of the air supply. I have a cylinder for mine that i had off something else, it has a 4.5" stroke instead of 5" that Wyman used. It has an ID of almost 2" which is also larger but will work all the same, all i will need to do is adjust the pressure down to reduce the force applied and lower the pivot point to make up for the 1/2" less stroke, just dial it in when it's fitted up. The figures your students get will be a good starting point, i'd like to size the cylinder a little larger then dial in the pressures after it's hooked up to get it spot on. I believe mine will be an over kill, but the price was rite (free). I also have a solenoid valve to control the cylinder and electric solenoids for the lead pour and mold tappers.

I have a design in my head that uses cheap relay timers off ebay but i'm not sure if their adjustments will be accurate enough. They may just work in full second increments not fractions of a second, so that may have issues with the lead pour time, but i think i can adjust the flow to compensate. I have an idea of how to make a mold tapper too using them. If it actually works, that will be determined after it's all fitted up......

[hagel]

Mold tapper - that's something I'm interested in too. Hatch gets around the problem of stuck rounds, mostly the hollow points he makes, by doing double taps with the main cylinder. That may very well be the best way to go. Simple, cheap and just a little change in the PLC code. However, the tapper on that way expensive but really smooth running German machine sure does look cool. I'd like to know what you have in mind for your setup. I own one MC now, another one will show up in just under two months and the third one will probably get here sometime in March. I have to get all three of them singing and dancing by May. I won't be able to pull off what I have in mind if bullets get stuck in the molds.

On another front - the ME student gang got lucky with the guys from the Environmental Health and Safety Dept. Two guys from there met with them and both of them are shooters. One of them is a reloader (or future customer as I like to think of them) too. Things are moving ahead again. I was terrified they would turn out to be someone who knew absolutely nothing but what the yellow journalists on the idiot box told them about guns. Who knows, maybe there are more of us sane individuals left in the US than I thought.

[Tazza]

I'm trying to avoid using a PLC because i'm from Australia, the freight could quite easily cost as much as the PLC and it all depends on if they would be willing to ship internationally. I'm aiming to use only one air cylinder, it will be larger so the code will need to be different, my brother works in IT, he'd be able to write it if i can't understand it.

The tapper plan i have in my head uses old solenoids from non direct drive washing machines. I believe they use them as a break between forward and reverse cycles. You apply power and it pulls the plunger in, i'm thinking of installing a spring behind the plunger so they will essentially vibrate when power is put on and off. A Plc to control the on/off functions would be handy, but i have done this before with a relay, you power a DPDT relay with one of the NC poles connected to your supply power. When the relay energizes, it breaks the circuit so the coil lets go till it closes, then powers and breaks the circuit till the power is turned off. It happens very fast, so i'm thinking a capacitor across the coil to slow the cycle time down. This is all in theory, i need to see how it works in practice with a load though. It's been a long time since i did this relay 'trick' i can't remember how it worked for the job i had to do.

Good to hear your health and safety department visitors had no issues. From what i have been told, melting lead is safe, just don't let it get too hot or it emits vapors that are not good for you. Plus all the other things, wash your hands after handling it.

[hagel]

I'm definitely no electrician. I can wire a house, set timing on an old motorcycle engine and read simple wiring diagrams. That's all going to have to change. THe ME students are going to do one of the MC machines for me. I have to do the Starr automation (I'll be asking Hatch a lot of really stupid questions) and automate the other two MCs myself (I'll be asking the ME students a lot of questions then). Mark turned me onto a series of Youtube videos that go over some of the basics of PLC programming. It's a slow slog through them for me. I'm hoping it will make more sense when I have a machine to work with and I can see the results of what I'm doing.

Having said all that I think you can understand that a few pictures of what you are talking about doing to the solenoid would really help me to understand it. Hopefully you can get your project together and shoot a few pics to help us electrically challenged folks out. I really like the idea of a solenoid tapper. It seems to me that it should not only work to dislodge stuck bullets but it should also use less electricity than an air cylinder would. No losses from converting electrical energy to air pressure and such.

Yep, we got lucky with the EHS guys. Funny thing about America, if you listen to the talking heads on TV or radio you would think we are divided into arsenal toting, mass murdering lunatics and totally clueless anti-gunners. Truth is that just ain't the case. Some of us play golf, some of us are couch potato TV sports freaks and some of us play with guns. There really are fewer true extremists than you might think. The media just has us all a little paranoid these days. It really is kind of sad.

[Tazza]

I'll do my best to get some pictures of what i'm trying to do. Heading over to the oldies place this afternoon, that's where all my gear is located. I'll try and get some pictures of the solenoids in question, it may not show how they will be hooked up, as that will take a little more thought.

I'm not really sure what would use less energy, an electro-mechanical solenoid or compressed air. I totally get your point that you have to keep generating air to keep it going, it wastes energy doing so, but some times it's the price you have to pay. The main deciding factor to use a solenoid for the lead pour was the fact that i already had them so i didn't need to buy an air cylinder and air valve.

I actually ordered two double relay timers off ebay today, it will be interesting to see if it works, if not i always have the option of falling back to a PLC and use the timers for something else.

I spoke to my brother about a PLC last night, he said they were pretty simple to program. Coming from him, that doesn't say a whole lot for the 'normal' people. He and his team write programs for banks and the stock market, he is really good at what he does.

You mean that all Americans aren't gun toting maniacs? I'd have never thought that the media would lie about things like that :) They do the same over here, we have some pretty strict firearm laws, everything needs to be registered. I only 'play' in the pistol side, we can't own anything over .38/9mm without it being a pain in the butt, they took my .45 as i could only use it for one competition to own it. Minimum barrel lengths, No semi-auto rifles or shot guns, not even pump action shotties. The media puts a negative spin on all legal firearm owners and call for bans. Do you think the people with illegal ones would surrender them? i think not. Very few firearms are stolen from legal owners, most are smuggled in or have been here before the laws were brought in.

[Tazza]

I took a few pictures of the solenoid, it needs a few modifications to limit it's travel for use as a tapper, but when i get to it, i'll pass the details on. Again, i still have no idea if the theory will work or not.

Hopefully the attachments will work.

http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/Solenoid/28102013303.JPG

http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/Solenoid/28102013304.JPG

[jmorris]

I'm trying to avoid using a PLC


I didn't use a PLC on the one I built. I made timers to control the relays.

[Tazza]

jmorris - I remember seeing your setup and noticed you used timers, that's one of the reasons i believe that i can get it to work with timers alone :) The ones I'm going to try are off ebay, item number: 200973308585. They have multiple modes of operation, hopefully they will be suitable.

[HATCH]

Those should work. Will take like 7 of them. Might as well get a plc

[Tazza]

Hatch - How do you feel that it will need 7 of them? From the description i have read on the controller modes that they do, i should just need one to control the main ram, one to control the lead pour and one for the tapper and possibly one to use as a delay to allow the lead to cool after the pour. As the ram is single acting with a spring return like wyman used, that saves one solenoid and controller.

The theory was lead pour for set time, pause then start after specified time to allow lead to cool which will cut the sprue and dump projectiles, tapper, release air ram. Repeat.

I guess it is just one of those things that i will know for sure after it's actually hooked up and tested to see if the relays will open and close when i want them to.

[kayak1]

Why not go with an Arduino http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Version-Board-ATmega328P-UNO-R3-ATmega16U2-Free-USB-Cable-for-Arduino-/131032298946

[No_1]

Those should work. Will take like 7 of them. Might as well get a plc

I use 8 with mine. I considered swapping up to a PLC but found my timer setup much easier to adjust on the fly. These were from a couple of years ago. I have added a PID controller and will try to get some photos of the updated setup when I go home for Thankgiving.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/DSC01360.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/Magma%20Master%20Caster/DSC01360.jpg.html)

Here is a couple of vids. Click the pictures below to play them.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/th_M2U00049.jpg (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/M2U00049.mp4)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/th_M2U00048.jpg (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/M2U00048.mp4)

[Tazza]

Kayak1 - i was actually thinking of a USB controller like that, but then it would tie up a laptop/pc to keep controlling it. I assume that board has no CPU as such, so it needs a laptop to do all the thinking.

No1 - I like your setup, very smooth operation. I'd have most of the parts to go hydraulic too, but I'd be worried that i may size something wrong and bend or break something, there is a lot of potential force that you can apply with a hydraulic cylinder unless you lower it with a relief. How do you go with the heat generated by the power pack? i didn't think that they were rated to run for extended periods of time. I'm with you on the fact that you can easily change setting son the fly.

That's the thing i have wondered about too, do you need to change the cycle times depending on the time of year? Cooler months means that the mold may not over heat as easily as the hotter months of the year. Does that even come into play? I'd have thought it may if you were running the fastest possible cycle times to churn out as many projectiles every hour as possible. I'd like to think that I'd be happy letting it clunk away, even if it's not doing quite as many as it could, it saves me sitting there manually doing it. I can save that job for my re-sizing stage....

[kayak1]

An arduio is a little 8bit micro http://www.arduino.cc/ you just use the USB to program it. Many of them are based on a ATmega328. I currently have one controlling my star (I just built last weekend, but I am having issues with having the boolits dropping from the feeder).

I noticed that your Master Caster is run with hydraulics instead of pneumatics. Did you write up the build it looks interesting.

[HATCH]

Hatch - How do you feel that it will need 7 of them? From the description i have read on the controller modes that they do, i should just need one to control the main ram, one to control the lead pour and one for the tapper and possibly one to use as a delay to allow the lead to cool after the pour. As the ram is single acting with a spring return like wyman used, that saves one solenoid and controller.


I haven't laid it out but based on No_1's
You use one as a overall timer. Basically all the other relays are timed off this master relay. Setup on delay on break
One relay delay on make - movement timer/lead harden timer
One relay delay on break - lead pour

Ok looking more like 3 or 4 relays

[jmorris]

The second pic below is of my timer/relay board. One of the DPDT relays is controlled by a 10 turn POT that adjusts from 0-10 seconds of pour time. When it triggers, the drive motor stops and it powers the pour solenoid at the same time.

The second is for a cool down/ knocker cycle. I robbed the knockers for another project a while back though.

The first photo shows the next mod I am going to preform. I am not sure about a real MC as I have never messed with one but my mold is pretty darn tight in the radius rods. I am going to mill a slot in outside of the arms that hold the mold so I can install bearings (pretty much a mirror of the mold slot/pin setup). Will keep me from making such a mess keeping everything dripping wet with lube.

[jmorris]

This photo may give you a better idea of what I am talking about. Except I will move the bearing as far as I can out board and pull the guide rails towards the outside, not sure how much adjustment there is on a real MC though.

[Tazza]

Kayak1 - Interesting, i do like the idea of that micro controller. It may be used in the next round of automation :)

Hatch - Thank you for pointing that out, that's just about how i was thinking of setting it up too. It all seems like they will work in theory, hopefully it will in practice. I just need to find the time to actually get into it. Need to find materials for the main ram mount, extend the rod on the ram as it only has about 1/2" hanging out the end of the cylinder, machine the end to take a clevis. Make a new arm for the lead pour to work with the electric solenoid.

[jmorris]

This is the pour setup I built.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/caster5.jpg

[Tazza]

Jmorris - That's the basic idea i was going to use. Mine may use a cable and spring as i'm not sure how the solenoids i have will like not being fully seated when power is applied. This will allow me to be able to adjust lead pour rates with the bolt on the pot and not needing to move the entire solenoid.

Let's see if i can make any progress on the weekend, Sunday i have IPSC so i will only have a few hours on Saturday to play.

[No_1]

No1 - I like your setup, very smooth operation. I'd have most of the parts to go hydraulic too, but I'd be worried that i may size something wrong and bend or break something, there is a lot of potential force that you can apply with a hydraulic cylinder unless you lower it with a relief. How do you go with the heat generated by the power pack? i didn't think that they were rated to run for extended periods of time. I'm with you on the fact that you can easily change setting son the fly.

That's the thing i have wondered about too, do you need to change the cycle times depending on the time of year? Cooler months means that the mold may not over heat as easily as the hotter months of the year. Does that even come into play? I'd have thought it may if you were running the fastest possible cycle times to churn out as many projectiles every hour as possible. I'd like to think that I'd be happy letting it clunk away, even if it's not doing quite as many as it could, it saves me sitting there manually doing it. I can save that job for my re-sizing stage....

The power unit runs all day without issues. I considered adding a fan cooled fluid cooler but the fluid temp does not get hot enough to be a concern. I do change the cycle times depending on outside temp and bullet weight. When it is really cool outside I don't stop it under the fan and have had it cycling at 1100 bullets per hour but conditions have to be just right for that.

[No_1]

I noticed that your Master Caster is run with hydraulics instead of pneumatics. Did you write up the build it looks interesting.

The write up is located ---> here <---- (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?89909-It-Is-ALIVE!-Automated-Master-Caster). I did not take pictures during the fabrication process. I have modified the unit since the initial build to include a proximity switch at the top of the stroke so it will not drop lead unless the mould is under the spout, a cable linkage to activate the lead pour, a cut-out switch to turn the lead pour off while the unit is cycling and a PID controller for lead temperature control.

[Tazza]

No1 - 1100/hour is quite impressive, but i understand that the conditions must be just rite or else the mold gets too hot. I found that with my MC if i try and go too fast i get lead build up under the sprue.

I'm a bit surprised the oil doesn't get hotter, but i guess the ram isn't really loading the system down much. I'm used to working on things like Bobcats that need an oil cooler.

[hagel]

No1, when you pour 1100/hour what is it that you are pouring? 110 grain 30 cals? 124 grain 9mms? 1100/hour is a lot of bullets. I'm thoroughly impressed. Also, do you do this when it is cold outside?

I really want to know how you pull that off. I could sure use that kind of production. It would really help to pay the bills.

[No_1]

When it is cooler outside I can cast anything 200 grains and under at 1100 per hour which is no big feat considering 2 boolits per cast means only 550 cycles. I coat the top of the mould, sprue plate and outside of the mould with synthetic 2 stroke oil, run the pot at 725, set the cycle at 7 seconds then let it rip.

[HATCH]

The best I have done is 6 sec cycle time
It was 110 grain 38 WC.
When you speed it up you also risk the chance of increased wear and tear.
Ten sec cycle time is about where you should be. That's 720 boolits an hour.
Considering that magma recommends 15 sec cycle times by hand.

Remember it's not about how fast you can turn out the boolits, it's about it being automated.
If you want higher production then buy a bullet master.

[hagel]

The best I have done is 6 sec cycle time
It was 110 grain 38 WC.
When you speed it up you also risk the chance of increased wear and tear.
Ten sec cycle time is about where you should be. That's 720 boolits an hour.
Considering that magma recommends 15 sec cycle times by hand.

Remember it's not about how fast you can turn out the boolits, it's about it being automated.
If you want higher production then buy a bullet master.

OK, you're right. Running flat out and then falling apart after a week or two doesn't really equal production. Still, it would be cool every now and then to just watch her rip.

720/hr/machine, that works out to 2160 bullets/hr. To be honest with you I'd have to have a bullet collimator to feed the sizer if I run that fast. I still might have a hard time shoveling in the lead fast enough. Might have to preheat the ingots just to make that rate workable. That way I wouldn't drop the pot temp too much if I didn't feed it as soon as I should.

[jmorris]

I have the best results at around 480'ish with 230g 45 bullets. With automation you don't need to set a record with casting because it allows you to do the other processes at the same time.

So I am fine if I can get close to 500 rounds cast, sized, coated and loaded an hour. It would be a lot longer if I had to be "hands on" every step of the way.

[Tazza]

I'm with Jmorris on the idea is to allow you to do other things while it's clunking away, if you want higher output, you need a commercial casting machine. I don't really care if it's not as fast as it could be, as long as it casts good projectiles with minimal intervention from me, i'd be happy.

As for pre-heating the ingots, i tend to sit them on the side of the pot to give them a little heat before dropping them in.

I'll mainly be casting 9mm 125gr conicals and .38 158gr swc, nothing too big.

[No_1]

Exactly. Even though it can run fast I do not run it at those speeds. The original thought behind automation was not speed of casting but instead being able to do more than one thing at a time without help. Hatch and a few others have taken it to a new level by automating their sizer which means they can to more than 2 things at one time without help. :holysheep

[hagel]

You know, at this point I really have no idea if I can keep up with three automated MCs and an automated Starr. I guess the big numbers (1100/hr) just kind of blew me away. Once I get everything up and running I'll find out just how much I really can do in an hour. I'm the third type of machine in this shop and a lot of my parts are pretty worn down already.

Still it is good to know that if I can figure out how to hold up my end of production that the casters have plenty of spare capacity. Speaking of casters, my second one should show up in about a month. I get to set that one up in my shop when it gets here. I'm looking forward to it. My little 357 mag angle eject 94 trapper is laying on the kitchen table looking pretty hungry. Gonna be fun feeding her. Usually is.

On another front: have any of you tried Magma molds in an MC for making #4 or 00 buck? I tried looking for a thread about either of those on this site but I couldn't find them.

[jmorris]

You know, at this point I really have no idea if I can keep up with three automated MCs and an automated Starr


Sure you can, you just need to automate the rest of your equipment.

[hagel]

Sure you can, you just need to automate the rest of your equipment.

Well, the "rest of your equipment" is me. I'm only partially automated on the good days. Don't even want to think about the bad days.

Seriously, if I can manage to get this all up and running and the government doesn't outlaw lead or shooting or small business (they are getting pretty close to that last one already) I'm hoping to expand to the point that I can hire a few recent combat vets. All that "thanking them for their service" **** is nice and polite and all but a paycheck, even a small one, ain't a bad thing either. Besides, after 2, 3 or more hot tours most of those boys ain't gonna fit into nobody's cubicle. Hanging out here in the boonies and cranking out a little lead might work for them though. No dress code, no PC ******** and something to keep their minds busy (melted metal does tend to keep you focused when it's real close). I was two years too young for Nam but a lot of the people I knew who did go never really came back regardless of what their address was. If I could get to the point where I could help I sure would like to.

[RoGrrr]

The big thing with automated equipment is the raw material feed. We all have to supply/scrounge lead to feed our habit. At least it's not bad like drugs that debilitate US. Our product can debilitate some thugs but the thugs who legislate us out of business/existence need to be removed/outlawed.

[jmorris]

Well, the "rest of your equipment" is me. I'm only partially automated on the good days.



Sad to hear that, if I can help I try. I have automated annealers, prep and loading machines to keep up with my hobby. The old way, over the years that worked, had no need.

Now that you fill one of your needs, I bet money you will find others.

We are making nothing "new" just a more simple way of doing it, with what we have.

[hagel]

Latest update: The ME students are busy doing their force analysis of the MC so soon we will have a good idea of the forces needed to run it. That should allow them to then move on to ordering the cylinders, valves, PLC and such to automate this machine. Since I already have MC #2 on order I am going to place an order for all the same stuff for that machine. If their control approach doesn't work (although I honestly think it will work quite well) I will have what I need to set MC#2 up to run like Hatch's. I will probably order the Star luber/sizer soon so I can get started on it as well. In the meantime I have to find time to nail down the stack of luan on the second floor of the garage and lay tile. After that I need to do the sprinklers, security system upgrades and the additional amperage.

My god, what have I gotten myself into. Oh, and yesterday I bought an old Snipe sailboat. Just wanted to have a little restoration project to fill in the spare seconds with. Don't suppose any of you have a spare boom and set of sails for a Snipe laying around?

I will be getting a mold for 00 buck with machine #2. Sure hope it produces useable shot.

[Tazza]

Good to hear they are making progress.

I had a tinker with the bits i have on hand on Saturday too. I machined the clevis and the end of the cylinder rod. I drilled a hole in the MC where the clevis on the air cylinder mounts. I just now need to work out how to machine the holder for the cylinder, i'll work on it during the week if time allows.

I made up a fitting to connect the air solenoid to the cylinder, all these parts are working, now to mount them up!

[hagel]

Good to hear you're getting on with it. Can't wait for machine #2 and all the bits to arrive. Looking forward to having a go at it. I think I might try your solenoid trick for the lead dripper. I just have to believe it would be more energy efficient than air and the PLC shouldn't care if it is signalling a solenoid rather than an air valve.

[HATCH]

It will not care if its electric or air.
Cool thing if its electric is that you can manually operate the mc with no air answer automated lead pour

[hagel]

Good point. I hadn't even thought of that but you are right. Damn, nothing gets past you.


It will not care if its electric or air.
Cool thing if its electric is that you can manually operate the mc with no air answer automated lead pour

[Tazza]

I think the energy saving will be minimal, if at all with using electric over pneumatic. The big energy consumer will be the melting pot. The main reason i'm going to try using an electric solenoid is that i have about 5 of them on hand, the same reason i'm using a larger air cylinder.

The mounting of the cylinder is currently the only issue I have run into. It's hard to explain the design, but essnetially looks like:
=O=
The O is a tube the cylinder will slide into and be held in place with set screws, the = is the part that will be drilled and tapped to mount it to the frame and allow it to pivot as the ram moves in and out. The issue is getting the mount and pivot point at 90 degrees to each other so when the ram moves, everything is still aligned and will not bind at any pivot point.

I guess time will tell if it will work or if i will need to alter my design to fit.

[hagel]

If you don't have a mill but do have a drill press, welder and taps you could try the following: purchase a short piece of tubing that the cylinder will fit snugly into. Drill that one for the set screws. take another piece of tubing and use a hole saw the size of the OD of the tubing the cylinder fits into. Carefully position the larger piece of tubing in the vice on the press and drill a hole through both sides of it. now take a piece of all thread, a couple of washers and a couple of nuts and secure one piece of the smaller tubing on either side of the larger one. Now you can weld the small pieces of tubing to the OD of the larger one and they will be aligned well enough for your purposes. Trim the outer ends of the small tubing so that they fit inside the base frame of the MC leaving enough space for a brass washer to fit between the small tubes and the MC frame. Use brass shoulder bolts to secure the cylinder mounting bracket you just made to the base of the MC. You now have replaceable wear bits acting as your pivot points. You can get the washers and bolts from a nautical supply house (you have a few of those where you live).

Or you can find someone with a mill and buy them a six pack. Either method should work.


I think the energy saving will be minimal, if at all with using electric over pneumatic. The big energy consumer will be the melting pot. The main reason i'm going to try using an electric solenoid is that i have about 5 of them on hand, the same reason i'm using a larger air cylinder.

The mounting of the cylinder is currently the only issue I have run into. It's hard to explain the design, but essnetially looks like:
=O=
The O is a tube the cylinder will slide into and be held in place with set screws, the = is the part that will be drilled and tapped to mount it to the frame and allow it to pivot as the ram moves in and out. The issue is getting the mount and pivot point at 90 degrees to each other so when the ram moves, everything is still aligned and will not bind at any pivot point.

I guess time will tell if it will work or if i will need to alter my design to fit.

[Tazza]

That is actually very close to one way i was considering lining up the pivot points. My other way was to cross drill the tube the cylinder was to fit into and use a full length piece of rod, weld it in place and machine the internal part with the bar stock running through it with the mill or lathe. In theory, the bar stock would help prevent it moving too much when welding.

I'm going to go have a hunt around to see what materials i have on hand tonight.

I like the idea of brass wear points too. Better to have them wear out than needing to sleeve the pivot points later after they wear.

[hagel]

Didn't know you had a mill. That does simplify things. Brass is good that way and using standardized parts keeps things cheaper and simpler.

[No_1]

The mounting of the cylinder is currently the only issue I have run into. It's hard to explain the design, but essnetially looks like:
=O=
The O is a tube the cylinder will slide into and be held in place with set screws, the = is the part that will be drilled and tapped to mount it to the frame and allow it to pivot as the ram moves in and out. The issue is getting the mount and pivot point at 90 degrees to each other so when the ram moves, everything is still aligned and will not bind at any pivot point.

I guess time will tell if it will work or if i will need to alter my design to fit.

That is pretty much how I mounted my cylinder.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/DSC01364.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/Magma%20Master%20Caster/DSC01364.jpg.html)

The pivot brackets are aluminum and the bushings are Teflon. You can see the articulation of the cylinder when the machine is running by clicking on the picture below.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/th_M2U00049.jpg (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/M2U00049.mp4)

[Tazza]

That's close to how mine will work, the cylinder that i have doesn't have the pivot points welded to it, but essentially the same look.

I got a few hours to work on it last night, the pivot points are welded on and threaded. I'm just machining out the large hole to fit the cylinder. I had to use a piece 2.5" bar stock which is naturally taking a little more time to machine out, i hoped some water pipe would be the rite ID, but i didn't have any that would leave me with enough material after boring the centre out to 45mm. Hopefully i'll get the machining finished tonight, then to work out what i'm going to use for set screws that will not distort the cylinder walls.

[hagel]

Just wanted to get the word out to anyone living in the north west US. Government Liquidation has a bunch of lead up for auction at Ft Lewis, 52,000 pounds. Living in Ohio this doesn't do me any good but if a bunch of you guys who live in that neck of the woods want to get together this could be a good deal for you. Here's the link: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=6824628&tid=GLSPPT2262&cm_mmc=Email-_-ia9174%2Csb9212-_-2013-11-05-_-9212_8600&utm_campaign=gl%20-%20ia9174%20_%20sb9212.html&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua

Description:
52,000 lbs Approx. Lead scrap, to include but not limited to Bagged Brick/sheet and chips & shavings. Located at Ft. Lewis, WA. consisting of lead ballast weight. approximate dimensions 14 long x 3.125 wide, 50-60 pounds each, most bricks are not full size. Including but not limited to sheets, chips, shavings, and smaller pieces of various sizes and shapes. Lead will be packed into flexible intermediate bulk containers (fibc) placed on wooden pallets, which are included in the total weight of sale. fibc containers are polypropylene bags rated at 6,000 lbs. capacity, could also include Lead brick, lead shot or poured lead. Lead is to be transported, handled and disposed of in accordance with all local, state, and federal regulations. GL will load flat bed truck and trailer only. Contractor will provide transportation within 48 hours of notification. Poc. for sale is John Miller. (253)966-1430. Mutilation not required.

If any of you guys know someone living in that area please pass this on.

[Tazza]

That sure is a lot of lead, hopefully someone other than a scrap metal dealer will get it and make better use of it. Yet i see that if that goes as one lot, that will be a hefty outlay.

I got the ram mount completed yesterday, the hole i drilled for the clevis to attach to the part with the mold seems to be a little too high. The ram i have has 4.5" stroke, others used 5", so i'll need to drill another hole lower to compensate. The hole i have made will now be used for the spring return if the internal spring in the cylinder isn't strong enough. I just need to figure it out so the arm will bottom out in both directions before the air ram bottoms out.

[hagel]

The ME students have finished all the load cell/force testing on the MC. Next they analyze all the data they collected. Sometime within the next month they should have a decision on the size of the cylinders and the mounting position of the main cylinder.

[Tazza]

Nice, looking forward to seeing what they decide.

I have mounted the cylinder, i think the air solenoid may have too small of a flow, it cycles the cylinder slower than I'd like, but as I'm planning on using mold tappers, this may not be an issue and put the machine under less strain from the bashing, time will tell i guess.

Getting the holes in the rite spot on the frame was the challenge, getting them to track straight was the issue. If they didn't like up just rite, they bind up a little, thankfully i got this part rite.

My MC is an older model with the frame made of cast iron, the brass bushings i used should make it last quite a while.

[bretNorCal]

Besides that it is a defacto tax levied by an appointed official that has the force of law.

"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."
US Constitution Article 1 Section 9 Clause 5

But then refined gasoline has excise taxes, booze whether wine from California, bourbon from Kentucky, or beer from all over has that. Tobacco has similar taxes. Finished firearms have about 11% tax on them, NFA is predicated on a tax stamp, the list goes on. In fact ATF originally was Department of Treasury (DoJ since 2002). The reason they were Dept of Treasury is to collect the taxes on alcohol, tobacco and firearms.

[bretNorCal]

After reading that there was no kit available for Hatch's set up I decided to look at this differently. If I have to buy parts I would do it my way :P

Hagel my plan, which will be slightly delayed and probably too slow for you to utilize but I provide this info in case it helps you in any small way. It seems like you are far enough into your project that this information may not help however some little bit might. When I actually get a MC and start automating it I will start a new thread. Who knows by then I may have changed my mind on which casting machine I want but its looking like it will be the MC due to price.

I will use a USB parallel port to trip the relays. I will wire the limit switches to the status pins of the parallel port so that I can tell which position the lever is in. I also plan on eventually wiring some motorized hammer to smack the mold to free the boolits but that would be totally compartmentalized and optional (and developed after everything else is working). This is all very straight forward as a means to control the system, the relays will have to be 5vdc instead of 24vdc but that is not a big deal. I could allow for temperature probes, lead level indicators and other goodies as well but if any of that happens it wont be in v1.0.

This opens it up to small embedded systems as well as desktops/laptops. Further I plan on writing something in probably perl which can be trivially ported to windows (I am a POSIX/linux developer mostly) which can then trigger things as they need to be triggered. I am choosing perl because it is one of the 25 or so languages I have worked with professionally and it seems to be the easiest to port to multiple platforms. I may revisit this decision in the future. Regardless of what language I design this part in it will allow for, by design, a GUI to wrap this code so you could hook it up to a touch screen monitor for example and adjust the temperature or whatever else you want that way.

This will remove the cost of the PLC and should lower the cost of some of the other components. I am cheap and I have more computers laying around than I have a use for, I even have an unused wifi access point that would be more than adequate to control this :)

This means that via a UI you can control the timing very easily. The same UI could provide manual control over the system as well, where you would press buttons just as Wymanwinn's original design had manual controls. Profiles for different molds could be saved, which largely would be for timing. Basically everything becomes a software problem once the hardware interface is done. The parallel port seems an ideal choice for this since it has 8 data pins (outputs) and 8 status pins (inputs). I will not rely on the parallel port being bi-directional to allow for the greatest compatibility, which means the cheapest usb parallel port should work just fine.

[Tazza]

What where you planning on using for a mold tapper? I have a few old solenoids from washing machines that i hope to modify to work as a tapper. I don't fully understand how the magnetic field will be altered if i drill holes and install a spring and guide. It's just a trial and error thing i think to see if it will work or not.

[hagel]

One of the things I hope to do in the near future is to offer a kit based on the work the ME students are doing. THe logistics of doing so should be simple. THat said, it may not be possible at all due to the fact that the students will own the rights to any technology they develop. Still I am hopeful. THese guys are all bright, really bright. I think they will realize that no one is going to get rich off this and will agree to a reasonable royalty. There are a lot of people out there who own MCs and like you would probably like to automate them. I don't think anyone would be interested in a kit if it was too expensive.

[Tazza]

With the rights to the design, i'm not sure how they would go with that, as the basic design has been outlined by multiple people on this forum alone, the best they could get i'd have thought would be the software to control the PLC if they go that route.

Lets hope they are happy to share their results and design with the rest of the people of the forum like many others continue to do. I'll post pictures of mine if/when it's done. I have a few of the progress so far, but it's still a long way off. I need to figure out the mold tappers.... The next part will be the lead pour solenoid, that will be quite simple, i just need to mount the solenoid and make a new arm.

I'm thinking of making a new main lever too, so i can mount a lead weight to it to pull the mold back under the pour spout. I can't seem to get a spring to pull it back as well as i'd like so it will always stop in the rite place. It will also keep the handle away from the lead pour solenoid, again, time will tell if it actually works.

[hagel]

You can rest assured that I will post copious images and a video or three of the finished machine. I agree with you that the PLC code they come up with will certainly be their property. Also, their approach to controlling the process is probably woth considering as intellectual property, especially if it provides a demonstrable advantage which I certainly hope it will. That said they are also fully aware of 45nut's PLC code and the fact that it is available. These guy's are pretty sharp. I don't really anticipate having a difficult time coming to an agreement. I just wanted to point out that in all fairness to them that I feel compelled to do so prior to offering any kit. I guess that overall I am so pleased that these young men decided to help me out and that they are going at it tooth and nail causes me to want to help them out in any way I can. If some sort of royalty agreement, penurious as it will certainly be in this case, would look good on their resumes then I will be happy to work something out.

Bummer about the spring. Have you thought of picking up a screen door return spring from the local hardware store and using it for a little extra boost on the return? Might work and it would be cheap to try.

[HATCH]

To clarify, its my plc code.
I just want donations to 45nut.

[HATCH]

One of the guys is tossing around the idea of using a double acting cylinder. Power open and power close.

I might play around with this.

[hagel]

Thanks for clarifying that. Lot to keep track of.

By the way, it sure was nice seeing a bullet from machine #1. It was a 240 grain bevel base, round nose flat point. You could see the barely perceptible swirls from the cherry on the nose of that thing. Damn it was pretty.

[Tazza]

That type of return spring may indeed be an option, I'll have to keep an eye out for one. It's really only the last little bit that is the issue, the return spring in the cylinder does a great job, but it needs that little extra to get it under the pour spout.

I was originally thinking of using a double acting cylinder, but this one was spring return and fitted the bill quite well.

I still haven't had time to work on the solenoids to see if they can be modified to work as mold tappers. Looks like it won't happen for at least another week, this makes me sad.

[hagel]

I am hoping to avoid using double acting cylinders. Single acting spring return ones use half the air. I'll have three MCs and one Star running on air. That's a lot of air right there. Besides the money for the energy to run the compressor there is also the noise. Hoping to keep both down as much as possible.

Life often gets in the way of what we really want to do. If you just hang in there you will eventually get it done. Persistence is a valuable asset.


That type of return spring may indeed be an option, I'll have to keep an eye out for one. It's really only the last little bit that is the issue, the return spring in the cylinder does a great job, but it needs that little extra to get it under the pour spout.

I was originally thinking of using a double acting cylinder, but this one was spring return and fitted the bill quite well.

I still haven't had time to work on the solenoids to see if they can be modified to work as mold tappers. Looks like it won't happen for at least another week, this makes me sad.

[Tazza]

I never actually factored in the efficiencies of single acting vs double acting with the air consumption, it's a very good point.

I know i'll get time to get back into it soon, it just never seems to happen fast enough.

[hagel]

You mean you guys down there on the under side of the world don't have more hours in the day than we do? Well now don't that just make you want to chunder!

No, seriously I am thinking as much about cutting the noise from the compressor in half as much as the electric bill. Both of them are a pain just in different parts of my anatomy.


I never actually factored in the efficiencies of single acting vs double acting with the air consumption, it's a very good point.

I know i'll get time to get back into it soon, it just never seems to happen fast enough.

[Tazza]

I wish we did have more hours in the day, but sadly it's not the case *sad face*. I'll have some time off over x-mas, i just hope i don't have to wait that long to get back into it.

Noise is another factor, the air cylinder on mine is pretty quiet, the compressor won't be the same though. I guess it's just a price you have to pay for it. I'm just going to have to position it somewhere that it won't be too much of a nuisance. At least it won't be running all the time.

[HATCH]

Double acting will work but as stated above it will use more air.

I have a 12cfm(at 150psi) 60 gal compressor.
I run my star sizer which is automated.
It has a double acting cylinder to operate and does one complete stroke every 2 seconds.
My compressor doesn't run that often or that long when it does run.
Now when my MC is running it will run maybe once every 3 hrs or so compared to my star running which makes the compressor go off once every 30 mins.


Also run the MC doing the same mold/same boolit at the same time.
So when you are doing 45acp round nose you would be producing about 1800 rds per hr.
The automated star can size 1200 per hr provided you have enough tubes and you keep them loaded.


I run everything in batches. Right now its 32/20
I run the MC until I get at least a full coffee can. Then I size that full coffee can.
I don't load that many 32/20's so thats plenty.
On 44/40's I did 3 coffee cans, same with 41 mags.
You see its easier to do one caliber at a time then to switch around.

If you figure a 8 hr work day with 7 hrs of casting time, then you are looking at around casting 12000 boolits and being able to size 8500 in that same 7 hrs. This is with 3 MC and one star. You might need a second star.

Honestly If I was starting a business up and wanted to make money I would get the Magma Mark 8 bullet master and the Lubemaster.

The BM will do 4000 per hr while the lubemaster will do 6000 per hr.
But I think the time to get into the business is already past.

[hagel]

If I had the cash I might get a Mk8 and a Lubemaster. Unfortunately I don't so I will just have to make the setup I can afford work. You are right that the Star is going to be the bottle neck in this deal. I am going to get a collator for it so I won't have to load tubes. That won't make it run any faster though.

I sure hope you're wrong about that timing thing. Only one way to find out.

[kayak1]

I hope that your venture takes off and you then can pickup a MK8 before the mater casters start to break down.

As for the double acting without the return spring the air pressure should be able to be turned down a bit.

[Tazza]

Wow, i thought the compressor would need to kick in a lot more than that, good to know it's not really that air hungry. The cylinder i have hooked up has a larger bore, but i can lower the air pressure as it doesn't need the extra force that it is able to produce.

[HATCH]

I am not wrong about the timing.
The star automated will do one bullet every two seconds.
Sure you can make it run faster and I run mine at 1.8 seconds per boolit sized but any faster and you will pay the price.
So at 1 boolit every two seconds that's 30 a minute and 1800 a hr.
The master caster running automated and going slow will do at least 600 per hr so that's 1800 total per hr. If you run it with ten second cycle that's 12 boolits a minute with 720 a hr. Times 3 machines that's 2160 per hr worth of casting.
With those numbers you are 360 boolits unsized per hr.
if you figure the 7 hr work day that's a surplus cast of over 2500 per day.
to be honest it will prob work out because i am not factoring in adding lead to the pots and adding lube to the sizer.

Another star automated is cheap

[hagel]

OK, now that is one of the reasons I'm going to try to cast 00 and #4. No sizing - just throw it in the tumbler with a little graphite. If I can run some of that every now and then one Star might keep up with the bullets.

Still a lot of unknowns and probably more unknowns that I know I don't know about. Everything I make is going to be damn pricey due to the cost of lead and the ITAR. It will be hard to factor in all the production costs. My only real hope is that people around here will actually see some wisdom in supporting local production even if it is more expensive.

I'll probably go ahead and order the Star as soon as I get half the floor finished in the upstairs. I finally got that project started. I'm a little worried about the fact that I can't really get the place up to the temp range recommended for the glue for the CVT. I sure hope the tile sticks.


I am not wrong about the timing.
The star automated will do one bullet every two seconds.
Sure you can make it run faster and I run mine at 1.8 seconds per boolit sized but any faster and you will pay the price.
So at 1 boolit every two seconds that's 30 a minute and 1800 a hr.
The master caster running automated and going slow will do at least 600 per hr so that's 1800 total per hr. If you run it with ten second cycle that's 12 boolits a minute with 720 a hr. Times 3 machines that's 2160 per hr worth of casting.
With those numbers you are 360 boolits unsized per hr.
if you figure the 7 hr work day that's a surplus cast of over 2500 per day.
to be honest it will prob work out because i am not factoring in adding lead to the pots and adding lube to the sizer.

Another star automated is cheap

[HATCH]

There are two keys to running air operated devices.

(1) make sure that your compressor is at least 1/3 larger cfm wise then the max air draw of everything you plan to run. Try to get two stage pumps for this reason.

(2) make sure you get the largest tank you can afford. More capacity means more time before it has to start.

I have to compressors.
A 150psi 6 gallon $100 one and a 175psi 60 gallon $300 used one.
I can run the small one on the master caster and it can keep up with extra to spare. It will run once every ten mins.
Now when i run the automated star it cant keep up. It will run about 15 to 20 mins before its basically out of air.

With the big one i can run both devices at the same time and still have more cfm to spare.

[hagel]

THanks for the advice Hatch. THe ME students are analyzing their data right now and will soon make a decision on the cylinders. If they're aren't too far off what you think should do the job I'll order another set of kit for my second MC (which should ship sometime soon). I will have some idea of the possible CFM I'll need at that time. THen I can make a guess at a compressor.

I have a small one now, a little bigger than your little one. That will give me a little cushion (maybe I could just hook it up to one machine if need be). I sure would like to hit pretty close to the mark on size though.

I was standing out behind the garage the other day looking at a locust tree that fell down (fortunately without any serious damage) and I got to thinking. Maybe I could pour a pad and run a shed roof off the garage and set the compressor outside. Sure would help with the noise.

[shootinfox2]

I run a Dewalt 15 gal 200 psi 5cfm compressor for both the MC and the Star. It will come on about every thirty minutes for about 5 minutes. It is quiet enough to have a conversation while it is running.I run the star at 40psi on the lube and 70 psi on the cylinder and the mc at around 100 psi with a flow control valve on both to regulate speed of operation.

Fox

[Tazza]

If i run out of air, i can always fire up the 175CFM screw compressor i use for sand blasting :)

[kayak1]

If i run out of air, i can always fire up the 175CFM screw compressor i use for sand blasting :)

Do you have 3 phase power to run that monster?

[Tazza]

It's actually diesel powered :) when running flat out, it does use a far bit of fuel.....

[hagel]

OK, the ME students have pretty much finished their planning for automating MC #1. I will be meeting with them soon, probably this week. They will go over their design with me at that time. From what we have talked about so far I believe that they are going to set it up as follows:

1. they are going to mount a sprocket on the shaft
2. a double acting cylinder will be mounted vertically under the machine
3. the cylinder will be used to pull a chain that loops over the sprocket
4. a return spring will be attached to the other end of the chain
5. a thermocouple will be attached to the mold
6. the thermocouple will send mold temperature data to the PLC
7. the PLC will be used to run the machine as fast as it can while keeping the mold temp within a set range

That's pretty much the high points of where they were on our last discussion. If this works then the machine will adjust the operating speed to maintain optimal mold temps at the end of the stroke. Theoretically this should allow the machine to self regulate according to the size of the bullet/round ball that is being cast. As a backup it will be possible to run the machine in a timed mode just like Hatch's machine.

It will be interesting to see how this works out.

[HATCH]

Problem with your design is you are gliving up all manual operation of the machine.
You said a double acting cylinder so you are gonna not use a spring return cylinder??

[RoGrrr]

The way I take it, he's not going to hook up the return side of the cylinder but use a spring instead. This way he needs a simpler control valve and can still work the handle.
Personally, I think I'd use the air drive on both sides of the cylinder but then, I'm not a mechanical engineer.
Beyond that, I can't see the mold getting too hot from casting boolits too fast; also, I can't see the mold getting too cool, either.


Problem with your design is you are gliving up all manual operation of the machine.
You said a double acting cylinder so you are gonna not use a spring return cylinder??

[kayak1]

The way I take it, he's not going to hook up the return side of the cylinder but use a spring instead. This way he needs a simpler control valve and can still work the handle.
Personally, I think I'd use the air drive on both sides of the cylinder but then, I'm not a mechanical engineer.
Beyond that, I can't see the mold getting too hot from casting boolits too fast; also, I can't see the mold getting too cool, either.

I have only had my master caster for a couple of days, and I find it easy enough to get it too hot. I was casting and it was 20F with the fan going casting 45's I was able to get them really frosted by going to fast. When I dropped the cycle time down and idle the mold in front of the fan was able make nice boolits.

[Tazza]

Interesting way of doing it, not sure why they would want to over complicate it with a sprocket and chain driven from an air cylinder. I'm not saying it won't work, it's just a little more involved with extra moving parts.

I do like the idea of adjusting machine speed with the mold temperature, you will still need a way to adjust lead flow if the primary reason for the thermocouple was to allow you to change molds easier and not have to adjust cooling times.

I still want to see how they go with this, no matter what, i'm sure they will get it to run well.

Have they mentioned if they are going to do something for a mold tapper?

[HATCH]

The way I take it, he's not going to hook up the return side of the cylinder but use a spring instead. This way he needs a simpler control valve and can still work the handle.


if you read what he said they were going to do you will see that he is removing the handle and mounting a sprocket on the shaft.
The air valve (switch) would be the same if you used a spring return or a double acting but only hooked up one side (power open only).
I see no reason to do it the way listed above except that they may not know exactly what they want to do right now and by doing it this way they leave their options open.

The mold will not get any hotter then the lead that is poured in it.

[hagel]

Yep, they are only planning on using one side of the cylinder. As for the handle, I haven't had the thing sitting around here to do anything with it but I'll bet that shaft is a standard sized piece of rod. I could make a longer one. That would be a good project for me to start learning how to use a mill with.

Yes, I too am not an engineer. When I introduced this project to the ME students I told them that I wasn't going to tell them exactly what to do to the machine. Instead I laid out a set of criteria, relatively cheap, reliable, easy to use, off the shelf parts and stuff like that. After that I said I wanted the best solution that would get me the results I wanted. I'm hoping that's what they are going to deliver. Only time will reveal if that is in fact the case. I'm pretty optimistic though. I know they have put a lot of thought and effort into figuring out how to do it.

Once again, it will be interesting to see how it works.


if you read what he said they were going to do you will see that he is removing the handle and mounting a sprocket on the shaft.
The air valve (switch) would be the same if you used a spring return or a double acting but only hooked up one side (power open only).
I see no reason to do it the way listed above except that they may not know exactly what they want to do right now and by doing it this way they leave their options open.

The mold will not get any hotter then the lead that is poured in it.

[Tazza]

My timers arrived about a week ago, but i have yet to find the time to hook them up to see if they will do what i want them to do.

Naturally no more progress has been made on the rest of the machine either. I took the lead pour lever off, i just need to find some steel stock that i can use for it so i can use the electric solenoid to to pull it down. I don't want to cut the stock one just in case i decide at some point to make it hand operated again, but i highly doubt that will ever happen after having the joy of automation :)

I also found some electric solenoids on ebay that i hope will work as mold tappers. The more i thought about the larger ones i had, the more work would be involved in modifying them to work. Hopefully these will have enough power to knock the mold to make them drop the projectiles. I don't think a lot of force is required, but we'll see all the same. They are 12v and 1 amp, they are rated to pull about 80 grams i think. I'm hoping that this is going to be enough of a knock to get the projectiles to drop, it was the largest of this style i could find. They should be here shortly.

[kayak1]

I also found some electric solenoids on ebay that i hope will work as mold tappers. The more i thought about the larger ones i had, the more work would be involved in modifying them to work. Hopefully these will have enough power to knock the mold to make them drop the projectiles. I don't think a lot of force is required, but we'll see all the same. They are 12v and 1 amp, they are rated to pull about 80 grams i think. I'm hoping that this is going to be enough of a knock to get the projectiles to drop, it was the largest of this style i could find. They should be here shortly.

I would love to see what you and other have done for mold tappers. I haven't seen a lot written about mold tappers but it's an item that I am sure that I would like to add. It would be done in the mold cool down time, thus not adding any real delay to the casting and seems like a good thing to do. I hope that you will post pictures.

[Tazza]

That's exactly where i was going to get them to run, while the mold is down cooling off, the tappers will be in action.

I'm thinking of starting a new thread when i finally make some more progress, i don't want to start something now and have massive delays in updates. I have been taking pictures, possibly not as many as i should have. It's a job i tinker with when i have a few spare hours and a camera is quite low on the priority list.

Mine currently has the ram mounted, that's about the extent of the progress. The next step will the the lead pour solenoid. I hope to get time to fiddle with the timers shortly too, see just how adjustable they are. Some listings say they only work full seconds, others say increments of a second, so we'll see.

[wymanwinn]

while i think this project has merit the system seems to be overly complex for such a simple task....Hatch's automation has proven to be the best way to automate the MC in my humble opinion....sure, there are no mold tappers and occasionally a bullet does not drop properly, but at what sacrifice. over the last weekend i cast about 2500 bullets of two flavors, 9mm and .40S&W....and only had two "hanging bullets" which stopped the process....that said, with the Hatch automation and spring return AND pull handle i am able to "proof" the bullets on a mold change by "hand" casting about 10 cycles....this heats the mold and allows me to adjust the system to match the mold...then i turn the automation loose and go about my other tasks in the Cave (my reloading room) during which i keep a close eye on the process and lead pot....

i am looking forward to seeing this student project finished and working and i applaud the students for their ingenuity...

wyman

[HATCH]

Mold tappers would be REALLY nice because then you can reduce the force used to knock the boolits out of the molds and would potentially increase the life of the machine.

The main thing that you need to be concerned with is making it overly complicated. The majority of the parts are off the shelf parts. Parts that you can just order from Grainger.
Yes the PLC you would have to order in but they normally stock them and it takes less then a week.
During that time you could just switch to manual mode and cast by hand. There is a switch that I have installed in every control panel I have built that allows automated lead pour but manual cycle control.
Basically every time the mold got back to the top it would automatically pour lead. That is a VERY nice option to have.

[Tazza]

I got my solenoids i was going to use for tappers, i wasn't sure if they would have enough force to do the job or not but they were the biggest ones of that style i could find on ebay. I still need to rig them up and see if if they knock the mold hard enough or not.

I may be going back to using 240v solenoids with a modification to do the job yet.

[kayak1]

I had mine working fairly well, for a day. I had it make two 34 oz coffee cans of 45's and one of 9's before my cylinder's ram snapped off.

I had it all wired, as a prototype and hadn't yet made an enclosure as I am still waiting on the Pneumatic Cylinder Magnetic Sensor Switches.

[Tazza]

Nice production, but not so good about the ram rod snapping..... Could it have been trying to over extend a little too much causing it to fail? The rod on mine is about 1/2", hopefully it will be more than strong enough.

When the rod is repaired, i trust there will be a video? :)

I'll try and upload some images of my progress, there just hasn't been much of it.....

[kayak1]

The rod was 1/4". I have a new cylinder on order that should be a bit stronger. Once I get it boxed up I will make a video.

[Tazza]

Even 1/4" I'd have thought would have been strong enough, hopefully the new one will do the trick.

A few images, hopefully they will work:
http://users.tpg.com.au/tarynamy/MC/02112013307.JPG
http://users.tpg.com.au/tarynamy/MC/02112013310.JPG
http://users.tpg.com.au/tarynamy/MC/09112013312.JPG
http://users.tpg.com.au/tarynamy/MC/10112013317.JPG
http://users.tpg.com.au/tarynamy/MC/10112013318.JPG

The main brass pivot pin near the mold carrier isn't locked in place yet, this is just for testing. The pivot points are all brass, the frame of this old girl is cast iron, so it should wear very well together.

[hagel]

One of the reasons the ME students decided on the design they did is that the cylinder is pulling straight down. Chains and sprockets are pretty well proven and cheap and easy to replace if they do fail. Hatch hit the nail on the head with his reference to Graingers. All of the parts they are using are off the shelf, easy to get stuff.

Now, with all that said they haven't put it together yet. Once again, it will be interesting to see how it works.

Tazza, have you thought of using the solenoids to actuate a flexible lever with something semisolid on the end that impacts the mold? No idea if it would work but when the Doc whacks my knee with a little rubber hammer it elicits the desired response (well at least it has so far).

As for the lack of the handle: as I stated previously I will most likely make a new longer shaft that will accommodate both sprocket and lever. I too kind of like the ability to be able to throw a couple of bullets without starting up the machine.

I emailed Magma this morning asking if they had a shipping date for MC #2 yet. Haven't heard back yet. Getting kinda anxious to get my hands on this one. I need it to design and make the mount for all three of the machines and I want to automate it along the lines of what the ME students are doing.

Haven't heard back from the BATF yet either.

[hagel]

Tazza, just looked at your photos. Brass rod attaching the ram clevis to the mold carrier. Sure does sound like a good idea.

[Tazza]

I have thought about a solenoid setup like that, i just don't know how I'd mount it to keep it out of the way of all the other bits and pieces, more moving parts make for more things that could hang up. My idea was to get a solenoid, weld some tabs to limit how far the plunger can extend out of the coil, say 1/2". Install a spring under the plunger and a rod to the plunger that will do the tapping. I just don't know if these modifications will effect how the magnetic field runs through the coil. Hopefully worst case, it will generate just a little more heat and still have most of the power.

I can't take credit for the brass idea, that was your recommendation :)

I'm wondering if the pivot points on the main arm should be drilled for a grease nipple. My machine was well used when i bought it, i have put at least 30,000 projectiles on it too. There is no wear on any pivot point, so i don't know if it's really needed. Just one of those potential

[hagel]

Complexity is a valid concern. If it can be done with fewer parts and it works satisfactorily then it is probably best to do it that way.

THe brass should save more expensive parts. Never know how it will hold up in an application where it is under pressure. However, it is cheap and easily replaced.

TO grease or not to grease? DOn't have the experience to comment. Perhaps one of the more experienced members would care to comment.


I have thought about a solenoid setup like that, i just don't know how I'd mount it to keep it out of the way of all the other bits and pieces, more moving parts make for more things that could hang up. My idea was to get a solenoid, weld some tabs to limit how far the plunger can extend out of the coil, say 1/2". Install a spring under the plunger and a rod to the plunger that will do the tapping. I just don't know if these modifications will effect how the magnetic field runs through the coil. Hopefully worst case, it will generate just a little more heat and still have most of the power.

I can't take credit for the brass idea, that was your recommendation :)

I'm wondering if the pivot points on the main arm should be drilled for a grease nipple. My machine was well used when i bought it, i have put at least 30,000 projectiles on it too. There is no wear on any pivot point, so i don't know if it's really needed. Just one of those potential

[HATCH]

I have put some bullplate on the pivet points on the machine a few time. I do have some wear but its the powder coat worn off where the mold carrier hits the base.

[hagel]

Your machine has seen a fair bit of use so you should have a real good idea about wear. Now, after all your experience what would you do with a brand new machine to reduce wear? Oh, and take your time thinking about that answer. I just got an email from Eric at Magma. It seems like they had a six week delay in getting heating elements so MC #2 isn't going to show up any time soon.


I have put some bullplate on the pivet points on the machine a few time. I do have some wear but its the powder coat worn off where the mold carrier hits the base.

[Tazza]

6 week delay isn't fun...... But hopefully the rest of the machine can be built up in the mean time so they just need to install elements to finish the melting pots.

At least you have one that can be fiddled with to get the design rite, then use it as a template.

I wonder just how many master casters Magma have built and sold since it's invention.... They are a great machine for ease of use, and even for automation.

[HATCH]

Its easy to tell you what I would do to reduce wear.
Figure out the mold tappers.

If you had mold tappers you could slow the machine down so it didn't require as much force to eject the boolits from the mold. Less force means less wear.

Some molds the boolits just fall out and some require more force. So I adjust the air flow after the machine has been casting for 30 mins or so . I am watching the whole mold tapper development so I can add them to my machine.

Automation isn't meant for speed, its mean to be automatic. That means you don't have to touch it.
The Master Caster was designed for 15 second cycles or about 480 boolits a hour.
You can safely run it automated doing 10 second cycles or about 720 boolits a hour. I have run mine at 6 or 7 sec cycle time when I first set it up. That is over 1000 boolits a hr!!! But it was really beating the machine up and I pretty much slowed it down after 30 mins. That was in the initial design stage and the machine was new and I really wanted to see what it could do.

But to recap your question..... mold tappers would be the most improvement.
Another thing to look at is the wear on the top of the mold. Its VERY easy to not pay attention and in 30 mins you have trashed the top of the mold.

[Tazza]

I know what you mean, the beating it gets from knocking stubborn projectiles out does feel rather rough. Do that enough times and you will get stress fractures.

The wear on the top of the mold, are you talking about the build up of lead you get under the spru plate when running a bit fast and the lead has not yet solidified enough? I know this was my main issue when running it by hand. Or are you talking about the pivot point? i have heard of people using a drop of ATF to keep it lubricated.

I think you are spot on with the tappers, the solenoid i have is a little small for my cylinder, it doesn't cycle as fast as I'd like. With tappers, this wouldn't be an issue. It would also make the machine quieter as there is no big impact to get the projectiles to come free. Hopefully i can tinker with the tapper idea in the next few weeks, looks like i don't get my x-mas holidays for another week *sigh* oh well, it means more money to spend on the casting machine :)

[hagel]

just poked around the web a bit. Take a look at this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYPY7_7kkTo

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/23065/0000638.pdf?sequence=1

THE INFLUENCE OF MECHANICAL INPUT PARAMETERS ON THE DURATION OF THE MANDIBULAR JOINT ELECTROMYOGRAPHIC SILENT PERIOD IN MAN
J. 0 .BAILEY JR., W. D. MCCALL JR.* and M. M. ASH JR. Bioengineering Laboratory, Department of Occlusion, Dental
Research Institute, School of Dentistry, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Michigan 48109. U.S.A.

(the guy who runs the shop at this school would be interesting to talk to)

http://hotbonders.wichitechindustries.com/item/non-destructive-testing-device-tap-hammer-/rd-electronic-digital-tap-hammer/f4tap002?&forward=1

(the testing machine these guys are selling is of no interest to us, however take a look at the "tap hammer" part of the device)

http://www.hullickmedia.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=59

(OK, we aren't interested in tappers the actuate musical instruments, but these guys sure know their solenoids and would be intersting to talk to: James Hullick and his colleagues have built several sound machines through a range of installation and concert based projects. Machines have often been built with the assistance and guiding wisdom of engineers Richie Allan and Ketil Bedford. A number of machines were built for and with The Amplified Elephants. )

[hagel]

Think I just found a solenoid that might do the job, is readily available and is cheap.

http://www.trossenrobotics.com/p/small-solenoid.aspx

[hagel]

Just had a thought. the opening of the molds at the end of the stroke is consistent. The location of the sprue holes in the molds is consistent. This means that a stuck bullet can only be in one of four positions that are always in the same place and the end of the stroke.

So why are we talking about tapping on the mold? What if you simply had a small plate with four pieces of wooden dowel rod positioned to knock any stuck bullets from the mold at the end of the stroke? It could be mounted to a pivot on the front of the frame, use a solenoid controlled by a limit switch to pull or push on the lever the "bullet bumping plate/dowel rod assembly" is attached to and pulled back out of the way via a spring.

Comments?

[xman777]

I have often had the same question. Everything is identically the same on each pull and you can fashion some fingers to knock off the boolits. Seems thoroughly over-thought.

[hagel]

It is truly amazing how much head scratching it takes me to finally come up with a simple solution. It is a humbling experience.

[xman777]

However you decide to mount your wooden fingers, you should float them. You don't want them fixed, but to have enough room to slide into place in the event they decide to contact the mold.

[hagel]

You could probably float them by using rubber grommets that are intended to protect wiring as it passes through a panel. Slowes and **** Shak both have them in stock. They whole mechanism would probably have to pivot in order to get it fully out of the way after it poked out the bullets.

The whole issue is one of trade offs. You build this mechanism and you could probably knock out any stuck bullets while simultaneously keeping the MC from beating so hard on itself but then you have another mechanism to support. Personally I'm inclined to start out running it at less than flat out (as Hatch has repeatedly suggested-be patient with me Hatch, the head is pretty thick but things do get through sometimes) and watch it to see if there is a problem that actually merits fixing. Still, Hatch says that getting any stuck bullets out without banging the machine so hard is the way to go.

Well, I'm going to have three MCs to play with so there will be some room for a little experimentation.

[kayak1]

I love the wooden finger idea please let us know if you get it working!

[hagel]

Will do Kayak1! I'll probably end up doing YouTubes of all this stuff as it comes together too. Don't hold your breath though. The ME students will have machine #1 for quite a while yet and Eric at Magma just told me yesterday that machine #2 was delayed by 6 weeks because they couldn't get their hands on heating elements. I haven't even ordered MC #3 yet. All this will come to pass though.

Been scratching my head over it today though as I pound a few more pounds of nails in the underlayment on the second floor of the garage. It seems to me that you could cut a trapezoid shaped piece of sheet metal sort of the size and shape that is defined by the tops of the two sides of the mold at the end of the stroke. Drill four holes in it that line up with the mold cavities. Bend the ends you just drilled the holes in up at a 90 degree angle. Stick some of those rubber wire protector grommets in the holes and slide your dowel rods through those.

Then all you have to do is figure out a way to move this thing in and out of the way with a little force and with great precision. Sure, that'll be a piece of cake. Oh, forgot to mention reliability. It would kinda defeat the purpose to have this thingy hanging up more often than you get bullets stuck in the mold.

[HATCH]

Hagel, correct me if I am wrong but you haven't cast anything personally with a master caster before??
There is a video done by magma that shows how to unstick a stuck. Watch it and you will see that the fingers idea may work on paper but might not work in reality.
Jmorris had a idea on using metal probes to check to see if the boolits had dropped out the mold.

[RoGrrr]

Hatch
I don't mean to offend as I interject something here, but your comment made me "chuckle" - "unstick a stuck"

We all have our demons and many of us are are learning as we go. Sometimes we grimace. Other times we GROWL (GRRR, as in RoGRRR) but in the end, we look back and rejoice that we're still looking at the "green side".
On top of that, we have experiences we can pass on to others who follow.
No, I'm not red-assing you. I just chuckled at your choice of words. I really do like that - "unstick a stuck" ! I've had it happen before and grimaced, too.

As that one (old) STROH's commercial with Charleton Heston said, "I love you, man !"

Or maybe it was a Bud/Miller/Coors/who-cares....

^5's to YA !


PS, hagel
I still do want to drive down and see what you and your "engineers" (my hat's off to enny kid who thainks hee wunts to bee a engunuur) have accomplished with your input/support.
With my newly designed furnace (JUST the furnace) tipping the scales at about 75 Lbs, plus the weight of the BM, it will be difficult to load into my car but I'm willing to do it just so you can see MC's BIG BROTHER and how it works. Heck, maybe I can get some ideas from you and your bretheren.
No, I don't have mine running just yet but I'm on my way, building my new furnace from scratch, after burning out my old heating element and Magma tells me they can't get a replacement for me since they had them custom manufactured and that spec is permanently GONE.
My new custom (cartridge) heaters (from WATLOW.com) are on the way and after I return from vacation, I'll be back to work on it. (shame my GF can't run my lathe/mill/drill press/welder/bender. BUT it's a good thing she caint shoot or she would be wasting all my good boolits....)




Hagel, correct me if I am wrong but you haven't cast anything personally with a master caster before??
There is a video done by magma that shows how to unstick a stuck. Watch it and you will see that the fingers idea may work on paper but might not work in reality.
Jmorris had a idea on using metal probes to check to see if the boolits had dropped out the mold.

[hagel]

Yep, you're right. Sure was hoping MC #2 would show up soon. Mighty disappointing to find out they're running six weeks behind. TO be honest with you getting a stuck bullet wouldn't be too bad. At lest it would mean that I was casting something.

[hagel]

I'll give you a shout as soon as they get something put together. Don't worry about dragging that monster down here. Just get it all put together and running. THen give me a shout.

[hagel]

Well, BATF is coming Wednesday for the "interview" part of the application process.

Wish I had recorded that call. The guy hadn't even read my application. Seriously now, someone remind me just why we are paying taxes for anyhow.

[kayak1]

Well, BATF is coming Wednesday for the "interview" part of the application process.

Wish I had recorded that call. The guy hadn't even read my application. Seriously now, someone remind me just why we are paying taxes for anyhow.

Great news! Good luck, let us know how it goes!

[HATCH]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/18/ynuqu8u3.jpg

That is a basic control panel.
The black knob is lead pour adjust.
It turns counterclockwise only because that's the way the knob was marked.
Goes 0 to 83 even though the knob is marked to 99. It just at the mechanical limit.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/18/u3uda6ug.jpg

Not my best handy work wiring wise but it works.

[shootinfox2]

hagel, The interview is to go over all the requirements and regulations and to check your facilities.The ATF agent just made the appointment based on your application and date received. Believe me when I tell you he/she will be very fAmiliar with your case when they show up.
Business License? Tax ID? State Department Registration?

Let us know how it goes.

Fox

[hagel]

Yep, I wasn't expecting to hear from them till after the first of the year. Maybe he's just bored and wanted an excuse for a road trip.


hagel, The interview is to go over all the requirements and regulations and to check your facilities.The ATF agent just made the appointment based on your application and date received. Believe me when I tell you he/she will be very fAmiliar with your case when they show up.
Business License? Tax ID? State Department Registration?

Let us know how it goes.

Fox

[Uptickk]

Best of luck Hagel!


Nice setup Hatch!

[hagel]

Hey Hatch, did you build that enclosure yourself? Reason I'm asking is that the ME students have budgeted $100 for their enclosure. I don't think any of them have ever fooled around with any sheet metal. Now I have one of those cheap Harbor Freight brakes. I was thinking about just buying some flashing (no where around here to get any thicker sheet aluminum) and making up my boxes out of that. Might bend up a few sections of angle and rivet them as reinforcements so it won't flex.

Bottom line, your unit looks just fine, how'd you do your box.

[hagel]

BATF guy was really nice. He even thinks that I may not have to pay the ITAR. I told him that doesn't jive with what I've been told but he still said he would look into it. He then went on to tell me that I should apply for a job with their technical office. Thought that was kinda strange. Anyhow, it seemed to go pretty well.

The AEP guy came after that to talk electrical upgrades. He was pretty nice too but it still is going to cost me more than a few bucks to get enough juice to the shop.

[HATCH]

Sorry that it took me a few days to respond. Work been busy and life in general seems to of stepped up.

Now the enclosure.... Its made by a company next to my shop (a sister company). Cost for a brand new one is like $20. I have several used ones (we put parts in it for a job but they didn't use them so we got them back)

A little background on myself....

I currently work for a energy management company. We do DDC (direct digital controls) for HVAC mostly.
I run the panel shop so we build the electrical panels that we install. I have built thousands of control panels over the years. Mostly now days I just handle production, order parts, and deal with day to day operations.

$100 would pretty much cover most enclosures (painted steel not stainless) up to a 24x16x6 hinge cover.
The prices I deal with are SPs (special pricing) because I worked agreements with the manufacturers. We use Cooper B line enclosures and have the cheapest prices on them in the country.

Have the boys figure out what size can they need. The can shown above is 8x10x4
If you aren't mounting the PID controller in the enclosure then I am thinking 16x12x4 hinge cover would be plenty large enough.

[hagel]

Well, I guess that explains why you were giving yourself a hard time about the wiring not being perfect. Of course now I wouldn't have known it wasn't perfect without you pointing that out. Still not sure you're right about that but then after building a few thousand panels you're in a league I'm never going to get to.

I really appreciate the info on the box. I'll pass it onto the ME boys along with the software when that gets here.

Gotta go right now. There's a tig welder and plasma cutter on the porch. Need to get them locked up in the garage. Gotta finish putting the english wheel together too. Those three toys, a sheet metal brake, a shrinker and stretcher and a lot of trial and error are going to produce the stands and guards for the casters and the luber sizer. Yep, yet another batch of learning experiences.

Well, at least life ain't been dull lately.

[HATCH]

I will try and make you a sheet metal guard for the MC.
Its like side shields. they bolt on using existing holes and work GREAT.

[hagel]

That's awfully nice of you and I must admit that I am curious to see one of them. However the problem I'm facing is that since the grant to put some of this together was from the BVR I have to build shields that cover the cylinders and all the other moving parts. You know, it's and OHSA sort of thing. Got to keep the women from the BVR happy.


I will try and make you a sheet metal guard for the MC.
Its like side shields. they bolt on using existing holes and work GREAT.

[hagel]

Sort of a big day today. First the milling machine I ordered Christmas day that was supposed to be delivered in 1-3 months showed up. Fortunately the guy was driving a day cab pulling a pup with a lift gate. We were able to back my truck up to his with the tail gate down and then lower the lift gate with the mill on it down to just touching my tail gate. The two of us then bulled it into my truck. Now my little Ranger is sitting in the garage with a fully assembled, 750 lb milling machine in the back of it. There's no way I can get it out of there without taking a lot of weight off it, especially up high. After that I have a small ramp and a pneumatic tired dolly. If I can get the chunks down to about 400 lbs then the wife and I should be able to manage it. As far as re-assembly goes....well I always wanted an excuse to get a shop crane.

So, have any of you guys ever had to disassemble one of Harbor Freight's $1200 milling machines into human manageable chunks without screwing it up? Sure hope so. Right now I can figure out how to un-wire the motor and pull it off but that won't do much.

The second thing that happened today is that my FFL showed up. I sure didn't expect that to happen so fast. Seriously, the whole deal was a real breeze. After all the **** I'd heard about how long it took to get your license I figured it would take at least 2-4 more months. By then I should have enough electricity in my shop and working casting machines. Kinda cool to have it though. Sure glad I spent yesterday taking down some of the trees I had to remove before getting my new power drop in. Just one more tree to go and then I can get the electrician in so we can figure out just how we're going to pull off the prep for AEP to do their thing.

[HATCH]

You don't have a driveway going up to your shop??

Ask the tech kids if they have factored in when this happens

[hagel]

Sure do. Steep uphill concrete off a skinny blacktop road. Not enough room to get an articulated truck in. If you're real good you can get a 24 ft straight truck in but you have to set up just right or you'll take out the mail box.

You see, we got two kinds of real estate around here. The flat stuff is all down in the flood plain and everything else is kinda hanging off the side of a hill.

That's not a hollow point is it? It doesn't look like one. So:
A. How'd you do that?
B. Do you do that often?

Seriously, thanks for the pic. I'll definitely pass it on along with your thoughts on a box for the controls. The ME gang should be showing up Monday. It might be a couple of days before I hear from them though. We're having some unusually winter like weather here for the next few days.

[HATCH]

I am guessing that machine is on a pallet. I would o used a pallet jack and a rope. Towed it up the hill with the pickup

That issue happens only every once and a while

[hagel]

Nope, it was on a pallet when it was in the semi. We had to take the mill and the box that the Chinese built up around it off the pallet because a pallet won't fit between the wheel wells on a Ranger. Now all that is left is the bottom of the wooden box and the mill is bolted to that.


I am guessing that machine is on a pallet. I would o used a pallet jack and a rope. Towed it up the hill with the pickup

That issue happens only every once and a while

[Tazza]

You need to drive out from underneath it really fast :)

Is there anywhere you can back the pickup to so you can use a chain block or something like that to lift it up, drive out and lower it?

I highly doubt you will easily be able to remove enough parts to get the weight down enough for you and your wife to get it down. With heavy stuff like that, you generally get to a point where you can lift it, but lower you simply can't hold it and it will fall, possibly causing injuries.

Would STRONG planks on the back allow you to slide it down? Make sure you chock the wheels or at least have someone in there with their foot on the brake to prevent it sliding. My dad watched as his truck skated down a hill when using a crane that took the weight off one of the rear wheels and it started sliding.

[RoGrrr]

hagel
at least you got it in the garage, considering all the snow. Shame you're far or I'd bring my engine crane down and pick it off for you. I move lots of REAL heavy stuff with it.
Do you have a cross beam/joist in the ceiling you can screw an eye into and lift it with a come-along, back the truck out from under it and them lower it to the floor ? BTW, the screw-eye has to be exactly in the center of the beam and long enough to go all the way thru it. I would also consider cutting a couple 2x4s that fit REAL tightly from floor to ceiling, putting them on either side of the truck to act as pillars to support that joist from sagging....

[hagel]

You need to drive out from underneath it really fast :)

Is there anywhere you can back the pickup to so you can use a chain block or something like that to lift it up, drive out and lower it?

I highly doubt you will easily be able to remove enough parts to get the weight down enough for you and your wife to get it down. With heavy stuff like that, you generally get to a point where you can lift it, but lower you simply can't hold it and it will fall, possibly causing injuries.

Would STRONG planks on the back allow you to slide it down? Make sure you chock the wheels or at least have someone in there with their foot on the brake to prevent it sliding. My dad watched as his truck skated down a hill when using a crane that took the weight off one of the rear wheels and it started sliding.


I have a short aluminum ramp and one of those cheap motorcycle lifters. I thought about doing some sort of combination of that stuff but if I can find an engine lifter/shop crane Saturday I may just do that. That was how I had been thinking of doing it when I thought I had a month or three before the mill showed up.

By the way, we're just a couple degree centigrade up here right now and early next week we are looking at a few below. Bet it's a little warmer where you are.

[Tazza]

Please send your cool weather my way, today apparent;y was 36c, tomorrow they are predicting 41c..... Not much looking forward to that.

I'm still in the process of renovations, the heat really isn't helping with it at all. Hopefully i'll get some time to myself soon to play with my MC though! I got my paws on some small cylinders that i'm considering using as mold tappers, but it's all just thoughts at this stage, air or electric..... That is the question :)

[HATCH]

Well here in South Carolina this morning it was a nice warm -4 C on the drive into work.
Good luck on getting it off your truck.

[hagel]

RoGrr tracked down a lift I can rent here in Athens for tomorrow. Still haven't figured out how to get it over here with the mill in the back of my tiny little truck. I will work out something though.

Sorry to here about the heat down there Tazza. I was stuck in Phoenix once when it hit 125 F during the day. It only "cooled" down to 98 F at night. The wind coming down off the mountains to the north made it feel like standing in front of a commercial pizza oven. Wasn't much fun.

[Djones]

Ask the tech kids if they have factored in when this happens

I've never been around a master caster but I think something similar to one of these in your control circuit would help detect stuck boolits.

http://www.cognex.com/industrial-sensor-checker.aspx?langtype=1033

With my 10 pound lee pot and my one cavity Lyman mold I can't justify a vision system at home. With what you guys are looking to do a vision system could save a mold and possibly speed up your production rates. You wouldn't need to tap the mold every time, only when a stuck boolit is present.

[hagel]

The ME students started out wanting to use a system like this. Then they looked at the price. They never really discussed the price with me other than to say that it was cost prohibitive.

Myself now I imagine that these systems are sort of like anything else electronic in that they will either fall in price over time or the manufacturer will continue to add bells and whistles in order to keep the price up. Right now I am just trying to get a working system together as cheaply as possible. If I can do that and I actually start seeing money coming in instead of going out then I will definitely look at devices and techniques that will enhance reliability, product quality and production. Right now, all that is a long way off. To be honest with you right now I am just hoping to get to the point where I can begin to consider systems like the one you mentioned.

Tell me, do you have any experience with these visual sensing devices?


I've never been around a master caster but I think something similar to one of these in your control circuit would help detect stuck boolits.

http://www.cognex.com/industrial-sensor-checker.aspx?langtype=1033

With my 10 pound lee pot and my one cavity Lyman mold I can't justify a vision system at home. With what you guys are looking to do a vision system could save a mold and possibly speed up your production rates. You wouldn't need to tap the mold every time, only when a stuck boolit is present.

[hagel]

Just got back from a meeting with the ME students. They have all their parts in and starting to put things together. Hope to see MC #1 singing and dancing soon.

Still haven't heard anything from Magma on MC #2. Last time I talked to Eric he said they were running 6 weeks behind because they couldn't get heating elements. I think I'll go ahead and order the Starr and associated toys. Any of you guys using the collator with your Starr? If so, how's that working out for you?

[Tazza]

Sadly i still have no news on my MC......

I made a new adapter to replace the handle that goes in the shaft, i have yet to weld the required parts to it though.

I also clamped some aluminium to the side of the MC and used a pair of vice grips to hold an electric solenoid to control the lead pour. I tried using a spring between the arm and solenoid to allow it to fully close the solenoid, but it was really noisy. I took the spring off and used a piece of aluminium to link between the arm and solenoid moving it to the required height made sure it fully bottomed out when power was applied, fairly quiet too.

Now that i have proof of concept, i can now find the time to make a proper mount for the solenoid to make a little more progress.

I have picture, but they really don't show much progress :(

Looking forward to see what the MS students come up with

[hagel]

Sadly i still have no news on my MC......

I made a new adapter to replace the handle that goes in the shaft, i have yet to weld the required parts to it though.

I also clamped some aluminium to the side of the MC and used a pair of vice grips to hold an electric solenoid to control the lead pour. I tried using a spring between the arm and solenoid to allow it to fully close the solenoid, but it was really noisy. I took the spring off and used a piece of aluminium to link between the arm and solenoid moving it to the required height made sure it fully bottomed out when power was applied, fairly quiet too.

Now that i have proof of concept, i can now find the time to make a proper mount for the solenoid to make a little more progress.

I have picture, but they really don't show much progress :(

Looking forward to see what the MS students come up with

You can only imagine how anxious I am to see what they come up with. I hear you on the slow progress on projects. They just revised the long range forecast and it looks like we're in for more arctic weather. Sure wish I could send you part of that. From the looks of the weather map I'm sure Hatch would second that. I know you could use a little relief from the heat down there.

Anyhow, really looking forward to seeing the final product on your lead pour solenoid.

[Tazza]

I'd love some cooler weather.

The poor people down south have been hit worse that i have, they are getting 45C days and it's not cooling off much during the nights either. We have had low 30c for the last week or two, seems to be pretty steady.

I hope everyone effected with your crazy weather stays safe, it sure does look dangerous.

[hagel]

Met with the ME students last Wednesday. They have all the hard parts and are starting to put things together. I loaned them a small compressor to power it with. And that's about all that has happened lately. We are having a severe winter this year. Deadly in some cases. Everyone around here and much of the eastern half of the US is just trying to survive. The 10 day forecast doesn't offer much hope either. Tried to buy some more propane yesterday. Didn't work. Apparently they are only selling it to people who are down to 30% in their tanks and then they are limiting what they will deliver.

Sure hope everyone makes it through this.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

I hate to throw water on the fire.
CASTING bullets in large masses and commercially is not the problem you need to fix,
Don't re-invent the wheel, some one needs to come up with a better sizer lumber.

when we cast in Tucson and Moses Lake, commercially we had 4-5 automated bullet masters, going but,
BIG BUT> those sizer lubers where always screwed up.
Air bubble in the lube ( started with Magma's- then made our own, then, RED ROOSTER lab when they still made blue) Most issues wen t away then, But That stupid collator Sucks, clutches are weak, you have to send them back to factory to have fixed, wait for 3 to 4 months, while no bullets being sold most of that time, waiting for parts, that are always just 4-6 weeks, more like 3-6 months.......

Bullet Casting machines have been made, copied, recopied, automated blah, if you can't lube and size why cast??
We closed the casting down for public consumption, after getting 4 lubers to have one or two running, 44 different sets of molds, two alloy types, and still people don't want to pay you for your time, or investment. They want cheap bullets though.

Even the little magma master cast. is not an original concept, I've seen the old one they patterned theirs after!!.

that said good luck

[hagel]

OK now, this is news to me. I was just about to order a Starr luber sizer with all the attachments including the collator. I just got an email from Eric at Magma telling me that MC #2 should ship in two weeks and I was going to add all that to the order. Are you telling me that the collator isn't worth having? This is real important to me. I'd sure like to hear from anyone who has one of the collators for the Starr. My thinking was that I could set up the MCs to throw 500 bullets and then stop casting until I changed out the tray the bullets were being dumped into. I would then dump the tray with 500 bullets into the collator and let it load the Starr while I was doing other things.

Are you saying this isn't going to work? I sure hope you're wrong. I'm going to be running a one man show here. I don't think there will be time for me to load tubes for the Starr by hand and get any kind of production volume.


I hate to throw water on the fire.
CASTING bullets in large masses and commercially is not the problem you need to fix,
Don't re-invent the wheel, some one needs to come up with a better sizer lumber.

when we cast in Tucson and Moses Lake, commercially we had 4-5 automated bullet masters, going but,
BIG BUT> those sizer lubers where always screwed up.
Air bubble in the lube ( started with Magma's- then made our own, then, RED ROOSTER lab when they still made blue) Most issues wen t away then, But That stupid collator Sucks, clutches are weak, you have to send them back to factory to have fixed, wait for 3 to 4 months, while no bullets being sold most of that time, waiting for parts, that are always just 4-6 weeks, more like 3-6 months.......

Bullet Casting machines have been made, copied, recopied, automated blah, if you can't lube and size why cast??
We closed the casting down for public consumption, after getting 4 lubers to have one or two running, 44 different sets of molds, two alloy types, and still people don't want to pay you for your time, or investment. They want cheap bullets though.

Even the little magma master cast. is not an original concept, I've seen the old one they patterned theirs after!!.

that said good luck

[Littleton Shot Maker]

For many 100,000's maybe 100,000,000+ went into the small sizer luber via these plastic feed tubes we had, then into the small sizer. No air system, NO air bubbles. BUT dam slow.
I am saying that after killing two collators , owning 4-6 of them over a span of 20+ years I always thought they sucked. Where weak etc.... they are about the only thing out there soooo.

I have dealt with MA systems directly and THEY told me, these are pill counters, and small parts collators, BUT they have been "adapted"
the thing is, you cast 20.000K plus, then you have to baby sit the collator cause you can over load in a second, then the clutch thing goes and then POOP.

Now maybe they are better now?? I still own two, one is still broken and it will be faster to get new one than get old one fixed (at ma systems- not via M.E.) so you are casting OR sizing but hard to do both.
Keep in mind I was doing it commercial. for at home, pay attention, you the only one running the stuff, no monkeys helping you.....?

Then if you use the little one, do you want to stand there all day long, that is the bottle neck form hell.
I am just saying that per dollar investment the bigger machines are a better long term lifetime investment. My Star is now for decoration, I still will cast with the M.C. but only use the big luber sizer for the rest, never go back.

BUY what you need tomorrow, not today, if you think you will grow, or you don't have the ARMs you used to , I would save and get the commercial stuff. I feel that for us the small stuff is for the guy that just shoot and load a few HUNDRED a week not:: I need 40K in 48 hours of some thing a customer had to have NOW.

Pm me, I'll explain more.

re-read the post #119. IF you are doing 500 then stop, then start again, then do it all over again?? why not cast all day on sat. then size all day on sun. and have all the bullets you need for the rest of the year? As much 'FUN' as casting and sizing is why not get it done, load, and spend more time shooting, that's why we cast right? so we can shoot more!!??Just saying??

[hagel]

Alan, I don't think you fully understand my situation. Can't say that I blame you for not reading the 11 pages of this thread. You seem to but under the mistaken impression that I am trying to do this as a hobby. I wish that were the case. I'll try to be brief here so as not to bore the many members of this list who have been following this thread and who have been exceedingly generous with their helpful advice.

I am partially disabled and have received a very small grant to try to start up a bullet casting business. There is not enough money to buy the equipment I really need so I am desperately trying to cobble together enough basic equipment and capabilities to at least get this thing off the ground. Basically that means three Master Casters converted to run under air and one Starr with all the accessories including the collimator. Knowing that this is grossly inadequate I have squeezed a basic mill drill and small lathe into the package. I fully expect to have to do a lot of fabrication if I am to have any chance of succeeding. Even then I realize the odds are against me.

It sounds like your experience with the collator offered by Magma for the Starr was pretty bad. Unfortunately it is the only option that is realistically available to me. I would certainly like to hear from anyone out there who has purchased a collimator more recently than you have as they may, as you have indicated, improved the machines over time. I am also very interested in hearing more details form yourself and others about using the tubes to feed the Starr instead of the collimator.

I really wasn't planning on having to load and swap out tubes to feed the Starr. As it too will be operated under air, manually feeding it would probably constitute a full time job. That said, if I am going to end up with a collimator that is constantly breaking down and killing my already severely limited production capability then I am forced to make the best choice I can here. Unfortunately I do not have the experience that some of you may have to go on.

[lka]

Alan, I don't think you fully understand my situation. Can't say that I blame you for not reading the 11 pages of this thread. You seem to but under the mistaken impression that I am trying to do this as a hobby. I wish that were the case. I'll try to be brief here so as not to bore the many members of this list who have been following this thread and who have been exceedingly generous with their helpful advice.

I am partially disabled and have received a very small grant to try to start up a bullet casting business. There is not enough money to buy the equipment I really need so I am desperately trying to cobble together enough basic equipment and capabilities to at least get this thing off the ground. Basically that means three Master Casters converted to run under air and one Starr with all the accessories including the collimator. Knowing that this is grossly inadequate I have squeezed a basic mill drill and small lathe into the package. I fully expect to have to do a lot of fabrication if I am to have any chance of succeeding. Even then I realize the odds are against me.

It sounds like your experience with the collator offered by Magma for the Starr was pretty bad. Unfortunately it is the only option that is realistically available to me. I would certainly like to hear from anyone out there who has purchased a collimator more recently than you have as they may, as you have indicated, improved the machines over time. I am also very interested in hearing more details form yourself and others about using the tubes to feed the Starr instead of the collimator.

I really wasn't planning on having to load and swap out tubes to feed the Starr. As it too will be operated under air, manually feeding it would probably constitute a full time job. That said, if I am going to end up with a collimator that is constantly breaking down and killing my already severely limited production capability then I am forced to make the best choice I can here. Unfortunately I do not have the experience that some of you may have to go on.

What state are you in? And just try, it's all you can do..

[HATCH]

The reason Wyman made his Master Caster pneumatic is so his arm wouldn't get tired. I automated his setup was so I could do other things instead of just cast.
The Master Caster is rated at 480 boolits per hour according to Magma Techs (I have spoke to them at length about this). And yes I know that the web page for them says they are rated 500 to 800 bullets a hr but its not what the tech said.
Automating it doesn't change the rating, it just changes the fact that you aren't getting tired and you can maintain a higher rate of production then by doing it manual. They rate it at a 15 second cycle time. You can safely change this to about 10 seconds and not have any negative effects on the machine (increased wear and tear). If you attempt to run in faster then 10 seconds per cycle then you will start paying the price of increase wear and tear.

A automated Master Caster will do about 720 boolits a hr max. In order to do that you will need to sink about $2K into it (this includes the cost of the MC, one mold, and the stuff to automate it). I know this price is a couple hundred higher then what you could prob do it for.

A Mark 8 Bullet master can do up to 4K boolits a hr and cost about $11,500 (includes 8 molds and shipping).

You would have to setup 5 1/2 master casters to do what the bullet master can do. Those Master Casters would cost you about $11K to automated and get setup with one mold.
So its a wash between the cost of a Mark 8 commercial caster and the same amount of Automated Master Casters.
Now the disadvantage of the Mark 8 is that its just one machine. If it fails you are dead in the water with NO boolits being made. Also you are stuck doing just one mold design at a time unless you get a separator for $1000 more.
With the Master Caster setup you could have all 5 machines doing different boolits and if one fails, you aren't dead in the water.
Also you could buy just one mold for a certain boolit and be able to cast with one machine.

Your bottle neck on the your plan will be sizing and lubing the boolits.
I would recommend that you do everything in batches.

When i am casting, I cast 1000 boolits or more then switch to something else. When I size its the same way.
Time is wasted when you have to switch molds or switch sizing dies.
You will find out that you will have popular boolits and you would want to dedicate one machine to do one particular boolit all the time.

[hagel]

What state are you in? And just try, it's all you can do..

State? Well I could go with Desperation or Ohio on that one. Both of them are right.

[hagel]

Hatch your pearls of hard won wisdom are always appreciated. It's good to see that you appreciate some of my reasons for going with the automated MCs. Yes, you are right about the dollars invested vs. production with the bullet master. It is the flexibility and the fact that I can have one machine down for whatever reason while the others are chugging along and casting a variety of bullets that I find attractive. I also agree with you on the batching. I hope to set my three MCs up to throw around 504 bullets and then stop and wait for me to change out the bullet catching trays. That way I can pull a few sample to inspect, get a good average weight (I'll tare the trays before starting to fill them and wright the tare weight on a piece of masking tape on the tray - then just do the math) and know that I'm putting 500+ bullets in a box without any counting.

I also agree that the lubing/sizing will be the bottle neck in this plan. That is why I figured on getting the collimator to go with the Starr. I can just dump them in and let it rip while I'm setting up boxes, doing paperwork and shuffling lead into the MCs.

Well, at least that's the plan. Hopefully reality won't bitch slap me too hard on that one.

I would still like to hear from anyone else out there who is running one of the collimators from Magma. Especially someone who bought theirs in the last few years and before I place the order for one. My hope is that they have improved the reliability. In any case it would be good to know what to expect. If the clutches are still the weak link then maybe I could keep a few spare parts on hand and learn how to rebuild them myself.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

the hand caster is what I used for a long time, and thats what paid for the bigger stuff. Then I started making money.
Call MA systems then, see if they will give you some info,

Magma doesn't make them, maybe MA will give you a few names of customers that you may be able to contact directly.
Back in the day, any time we had issues with any of the products I would get an earful about how I didn't know what I was doing or how to use the machine right.....OK.

There was a guy that made the M.C, a flip flop system - automated, so it poured in one mold then it flipped and dropped the bullets and the same time the other side was no pour, SO imagine two molds not one.
IT DID NOT double his production, maybe went up about 25-35% depending on the size bullets.
Oh and the pot was too small could not keep up so he added another pot over the little one to feed that one.
He had a ton of money into that thing. solenoids, relays, motor, contact switches , extra cooling fan, infra red sensors to monitor the mold temps in the pour station and the drop area why?? digital controls, air knockers on the sprue plate knockers on and on....

I paid half the retail price from what Magma charged by buying out another guy (co.) and refurbishing that unit and the next three. I owned one new one, my used ones where just as good when dad re-wired them, change out to bigger pots, drop their controllers and heating elements from 750 to 1000 watts.

Oh I understand what you are trying to make happen.
WE almost did same thing in 1986-87 too much in, too little out.

[HATCH]

The star sizer can be automated to do one boolit every 2 seconds. That's about 1200 a hr.
In not sure what the speed of the collator is but i would assume that its gonna be faster then 1200 per hr as it's the same one they use on the commercial pub sizer.

Keep in mind that the star will be wanting lube at least once every two hrs at that rate.
I can help you with whatever help u need

[HATCH]

Also please forgive any misspelling or shorthand phone speak sometimes as I respond from my phone most of the times.

[hagel]

You are a gentleman and a scholar Hatch. I will go ahead and order the Starr and all the toys that go with it.

[HATCH]

I know you want to use your 'students' to automate the star but I would just do what has been done as it works and is easy

[ffries61]

Hope this isn't too much of a thread Hijack, but I'm setting up my Star for automated operation also, and was wondering if you (Hatch) had any tips on keeping the bullet feeder (I have the Magma version) running smoothly, set up tips also.

thanks, Fred

[hagel]

I know you want to use your 'students' to automate the star but I would just do what has been done as it works and is easy

The ME students are assembling their version right now. I hope to see it run soon. As I have said before, it will be interesting to see how well it works. I know that they have put a lot of effort into it.

Of course now Hatch, you do know that I have two more machines coming.

[HATCH]

Hope this isn't too much of a thread Hijack, but I'm setting up my Star for automated operation also, and was wondering if you (Hatch) had any tips on keeping the bullet feeder (I have the Magma version) running smoothly, set up tips also.

thanks, Fred

Start a new thread and we can discuss it.

[xman777]

Why not just use a MR Bulletfeeder? Mine has lasted at least 200,000 rounds with zero hicups. I run mine on a Dillon, but the principal is the same?

[HATCH]

Mr Bulletfeeder doesn't offer a nose first unit or didn't last time I looked.
Sure you can get top punches and do base first sizing with the star but thats not how it was designed.

A couple different people (MORRIS FOR ONE) built a flipper to flip the boolits over to nose first.
Its not that hard to design a flipper, I just haven't had time.

[ffries61]

I emailed Rick at MR Bulletfeeder about a collator, here's his response about nose down configuration, back in Dec of last year.

"Yes, I sell the collators separately. Incidentally, fairly soon I’m coming out with an option that outputs the bullets in point down orientation for delivering bullets to a lube/sizer. I’ve attached a short video that shows how it works. The video shows an older version collator modified for this option, but it will be available for the new version collator.

The standard collator setup outputs the bullets in base down orientation in order to properly feed the bullet dropper tube. Sometimes people use it to fill tubes that they invert to feed the sizers. The point down option will feed the sizer directly.

Thanks for your interest in my product.

Rick Koskela / RAK Systems, LLC / Mr.Bulletfeeder® / 480-235-8864"

[xman777]

I assumed such. I'll have to see what I can come up with. My Mr. Bulletfeeder rocks. Not one issue to date. I'm just surprised I haven't seen anyone attempt it.

[Tazza]

I'd love to build one of those, they look pretty simple from the outside, but i'm sure there is something i'm not fully getting with how it makes the ones that are nose first flip over. Something to add to the list of things to try and build......

Now to get time to finish the work on automating my MC..... It still has not really progressed much *sigh*

[hagel]

I'd love to build one of those, they look pretty simple from the outside, but i'm sure there is something i'm not fully getting with how it makes the ones that are nose first flip over. Something to add to the list of things to try and build......

Now to get time to finish the work on automating my MC..... It still has not really progressed much *sigh*

Right there with you on....well, pretty much everything you just said. This damn weather just won't let up. Worst winter we've had in a few decades. Really wanting to catch a break so I can get my end of the work done on the power drop to the garage. I can't run squat out there without it. This **** is just driving me crazy.

On another front: the wife just proclaimed that another one of her killer home made pizzas just went into the oven and the Red Stripe is cold. Happy Bob Marley day to you all.

[Tazza]

Yeah, i understand that too. The sorts part is when you need to rely on someone else to get something done, being power you need an electrician to do it. With the horrible weather you guys are having, i'm sure not a lot of people are really in the mood to dig a trench and lay new copper.

Stay warm!

[Frozone]

I was ruminating on this tonite ( slow sermon from the pulpit, and this keeps me from snoring)

I believe it was hagel who ask me about reading mold temps.
I provided a chip that would do that and easily interface with the microcontroller that does the automation.

I then got to thinking about current attempts to automate. and those have an adjustable times for pour and cool. right?

Well, with an instrumented mold the cool time can be PID controlled to adjust cycle time to maximums.
The pour/wait time could also be adjusted to add/lessen the heat put into the mold.

Now, this May not be a shock to those that asked about the chip, but if you hadn't considered the possibility, I have a few extra ideas also.

[HATCH]

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the commercial casting machines factor in mold temp in casting. They use a set of semi-fixed timers.
I have thought about adding a temp sensor to the mold and adjusting the cycle to keep the mold on the sweet spot but I haven't found the need.
With the basic unmodified plc program I have cast 115 gr 9mm and 250 gr 45 colts. Using the same timing (with the exception of lead pour)

[Tazza]

I'm just wondering how long a temperature sensor would last from the impact when the mold hits the end of the stroke to knock the projectiles out. It is a good idea, it would automatically compensate for hotter weather, but turning a knob to adjust it seems to work too.

I'd like to hear how a sensor on the mold worked out, especially for it's life span.

I too was under the impression the commercial machines were just set and forget, no automatic adjustments with respect to mold temperature.

[ProfGAB101]

Hatch your pearls of hard won wisdom are always appreciated. It's good to see that you appreciate some of my reasons for going with the automated MCs. Yes, you are right about the dollars invested vs. production with the bullet master. It is the flexibility and the fact that I can have one machine down for whatever reason while the others are chugging along and casting a variety of bullets that I find attractive. I also agree with you on the batching. I hope to set my three MCs up to throw around 504 bullets and then stop and wait for me to change out the bullet catching trays. That way I can pull a few sample to inspect, get a good average weight (I'll tare the trays before starting to fill them and wright the tare weight on a piece of masking tape on the tray - then just do the math) and know that I'm putting 500+ bullets in a box without any counting.

I also agree that the lubing/sizing will be the bottle neck in this plan. That is why I figured on getting the collimator to go with the Starr. I can just dump them in and let it rip while I'm setting up boxes, doing paperwork and shuffling lead into the MCs.

Well, at least that's the plan. Hopefully reality won't bitch slap me too hard on that one.

I would still like to hear from anyone else out there who is running one of the collimators from Magma. Especially someone who bought theirs in the last few years and before I place the order for one. My hope is that they have improved the reliability. In any case it would be good to know what to expect. If the clutches are still the weak link then maybe I could keep a few spare parts on hand and learn how to rebuild them myself.

Time to burst a few bubbles and set rational expectations:

#1 - a less than 1% failure rate on small batches isn't going to happen. ANY break in the workflow which disrupts the pace will likely cause a few failures. Even running 100% factory allowed ingots will sometimes introduce dirt/dust etc. into your pot. It just happens.

You will need something like a 2' x 3' short nap carpeted table top with a low hanging bright light to roll the as cast bullets on for visual inspection prior to lube & sizing. I knew of 3 casting companies that used this method and a forth that hand inspected each bullet as the tubed them up for the luber. BTW those MA Systems collators make a whole lot of noise when you have 3 running in one room at the same time. The same inspection table works for final product inspection assuming your running harder non-sticky lubes.

One table I saw (3' x 6') had the raw (un-inspected) side painted RED and the PASSED side painted light blue and in the corner of the un-inspected side was a 8" funnel which was used to drop the rejects into a catch coffee can. Nothing was ever placed on the table unless ready for inspection and never on the blue side. I mentioned that the table took up alot of floor space for a surface that is only used for inspection. The owner told me it saved him a small fortune in business insurance because its use showed exercised due diligence on quality control.

#2 - As to counting by weight - errors waiting to happen, again and again. Get some 1" board, drill a 10 x10 grid of 1/2" holes 1/2" or so deep. These almost auto fill by pouring a handfull of slugs on top and spread them around. 5 plates and you have a perfect visual count of 500 ready to box. These boards will work for 30 cal to 46 cal (likely more than 95% of your production). Another board with 3/8" holes will handle the sub 30 cal unless your going to try doing .177" So when you are tired and feeling overworked this saves you from making mistakes.

RE - collators - if you can get a hornady or RCBS to feed un-lubed bullets that would be a cheap and simple way to use one collator to tube up bullets for several lube sizers.

This IS a hands on operation even when automated, as one guy put it, you never go farther away from the machine than you can with 100% accuracy throw your keys and hit the Big Red ESTOP. As for paperwork, that is done at the begining and end of shift while its quiet and the machines are either heating up, or cooling down.

[HATCH]

I don't cast commercially but for myself I know that the boolits gets inspected two to three times prior to being loaded.
I inspect them after they are cast and hey go in a coffee can.
Then they get inspected when I load them into the tubes for sizing.
Then lastly they get inspected when I load them.
Even with physically touching and ooking at them three times I still get a bad boolit in a loaded round.
IMHO, its too late to get into the commercial casting business.

[Tazza]

There are always some that will get through that aren't quite rite. I know I get the odd one or two that get through the coating and sizing, but it is rare. I coat mine with a teflon type coating and spin the excess off. One or two stick, they get re-melted later

[hagel]

OK, couple of things to throw out there:

1. The ME students postulate that running the MC at a rate that maintains ideal mold temp is the way to go. They are basing their whole approach on this idea. To that end the have secured an industrial thermocouple and modified a mold (I think they modded the 45 cal mold I gave them) to attach said thermocouple to.

So, any day now, we should have some proof as to whether this idea works or not. Of course, we may inadvertently discover that the thermocouple may not survive the end of stroke whacking it will be subjected to. In either case I assure you that I will post the results. In the case that it works I will also post a video of it doing so.

Now Hatch, just to hedge my bets I had them set up the PLC so that I can switch back and forth from the "Temp driven" approach to the original program from 45nut. I am seriously rooting for the ME team but I also know that you have ample proof that the "timed " approach works.

2. As for bullet inspection I just finished putting the wheels on a long table for that purpose. Thanks ProfGAB101 for the tip on the carpet though. I really hadn't figured out how I was going to keep them from rolling off onto the floor.

Once again, I want to thank all of you for taking the time to impart a little knowledge on me. I can use all of it I can get.

[Tazza]

The thermocouple i installed in my MC pot was the type you thread a hole and screw the tip in, if they used the same idea, i wonder if installing two of these thermocouples into the mold, maybe one per side so that if one was to fail, it could notify you of the failure so you can swap it out. The one i got was pretty cheap from china, it was bought to match the PID i also bought to control the pot.

It is an interesting concept, and takes out a lot of the guess work. The thing that may be the hard part is getting the 'set' point of the lead rite. Different batches may have different melting points, i don't know how much that may vary, but it's possible it's enough to be an issue.

I know that when i was trying to cast a little too fast, the sprue was still slightly wet, or wet enough so when it was cut, it would brush slightly molten lead across the top of the mold surface and create two lines of lead stuck to it. This would eventually push the sprue out from the mold creating a ugly bump on the base of the projectile. This did take quite a few drops for this to build up enough, but once it was built up, you needed to stop and scrape the excess off.

What sort of lead will you be using? if it's blended the same way every time, this will not be an issue, but if you use different blends and just keep the hardness up, you may need to keep a close eye on solidifying points of each batch you get.

[hagel]

The thermocouple i installed in my MC pot was the type you thread a hole and screw the tip in, if they used the same idea, i wonder if installing two of these thermocouples into the mold, maybe one per side so that if one was to fail, it could notify you of the failure so you can swap it out. The one i got was pretty cheap from china, it was bought to match the PID i also bought to control the pot.

It is an interesting concept, and takes out a lot of the guess work. The thing that may be the hard part is getting the 'set' point of the lead rite. Different batches may have different melting points, i don't know how much that may vary, but it's possible it's enough to be an issue.

I know that when i was trying to cast a little too fast, the sprue was still slightly wet, or wet enough so when it was cut, it would brush slightly molten lead across the top of the mold surface and create two lines of lead stuck to it. This would eventually push the sprue out from the mold creating a ugly bump on the base of the projectile. This did take quite a few drops for this to build up enough, but once it was built up, you needed to stop and scrape the excess off.

What sort of lead will you be using? if it's blended the same way every time, this will not be an issue, but if you use different blends and just keep the hardness up, you may need to keep a close eye on solidifying points of each batch you get.

The plan right now is to purchase my alloy from Victory White Metals. They have a pretty good reputation for quality and consistency. They supply their bullet alloys in 8 lb ingots which, according to Paul at VIctory, are a good fit for the MCs pots. Don't know about that and I won't until I try it. It seems to me that tossing 8 lbs into a half empty pot will drop the temp too much. I'll just have to work that out. It could be that I'll add an ingot to the pot after running three 500 bullet batches and wait for the temp to stabilize before starting back up. Of course, there really isn't much sense in wasting time speculating on how this will work. Once I have a machine working I'll just have to try it and see what actually works.

In the long term I am thinking of casting the alloy into long relatively thin rods and feeding those into the pot. That might alloy for a more consistent pot temp. Once again, I'll just have to try it and find out.

Seriously, I'm getting pretty tired of speculating. Can't wait to get everything set up and start the long process of learning from actual experience.