Help with Paper patch bullets

[Black Prince]

I want to try paper patch bullets in my 40-65 Winchester high wall but I don't know anything about them. Is it required that they have a flat base? Do you also use a card wad with them like a normal loaded bullet when using black powder charges? Would a "cupped" base be of value because of the paper twist on the paper patch on the base of the bullet?

Some of you boys who know about paper patched bullets hep me heah.

I'm also thinking of swaging my bulets instead of casting. Casting means I have to take half a day or more to get all my stuff ready and then clean it all up. With swaging, I could just put a lead core in the die and pull the handle. I could easily start and stop at any time. I would have nothing hot in the room. I would not be breathing lead vapors. The bullets would be more consistent. Have any of you boys done any swaging and if so, what advice and counsel do you have for me regarding it?

[jhalcott]

Well mr prince, that is a lot of questions that have a lot of DIFFERENT answers. NO they do not have to have a flat base. Some are cup based, to allow you to tuck the paper tail in. Some people LIKE a card wad ,some use a gas check some just the paper tail.Some even use a GREASE wad between the bullet and card wad. Swaging requires a lot of pressure and exact timing to form exact bullets every time. Casting should be done out of the house,like in the shed or garage. That way you can start and stop any time . Just turn the pot on or off. Casting paper patch bullets can be a litttle more costly than casting non paper patched bullets due to the cost of the mold/s. Few companies are making them for off the shelf buyers. This means a custom order. How ever you decide to go I wish you luck!

[Buckshot]

............Black Prince, just so ya know, there is a Paper Patching forum here at Cast Boolit's!. If you want to try your hand at PP'ing you don't really need to go out and buy a special mould right away. Just take some of your 40 cal GG slugs and roll'em on a case lube pad, then send'em up through a .403" push through die. That is if you're going to use 9 lb airmail paper and want them at .410".

I'd recommend that paper and if you want them to finish up smaller use a smaller push through die. After removing the residual lube from the slugs, patch'em up. Sizing 8-10 thousandths is no big deal and especially on a 40 cal boolit. The remaining GG's will actually help hold the patch better and you could also roll the leading edge of the patch into the top LG, instead of over the ogive.

.................Buckshot

[Black Prince]

Thanks Buckshot and jhalcott. But let me be clear here, you are talking about the sort of sizing dies made by Lee that push the bullet up through the die to size it down to .403 or whatever??

What do you mean using the GG abreviation? I don't know what that means.

And somebody told me that I ought to size the finished bullet at bore diameter instead of groove diameter when paper patching. Whutz tha story on that business? I've also been told that the bullet needs a shoulder to start the paper patch on it. There is so much information out there about the subject that I don't know what to believe but it was the same way when I first started shooting black powder loads. There is more BS said about that process than you can haul in a 13 yard dump truck.

And THAT gentle readers, is why I come here to get the straight skinny from you boys without the usual scuttlebutt.

[MT Gianni]

GG=Grease Groove

[powderburnerr]

black prince Look for a personal message in your mailbox here....Dean

[scrapcan]

Balck Prince,

You have a pm from me also.

[EDK]

Get a copy of LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright from Shiloh Sharps or Buffalo Arms. Profusely illustrated and full of information. Orville Loomer also has a booklet on paper patch available from Shiloh. These two will get you going. I pm'd Orville at the Shiloh site and he replied in detail to my questions. Paul Matthew's THE PAPER JACKET is a classic, but allegedly out of print.
If you go to Shiloh's web site, look for powderburner and Kurt's posts. There's also a guy named cas who is shooting some excellent groups with my favorite, the 50/90. All of them have shared information with me. There is rapidly growing interest in shooting paper patch over the last year or so and information is flowing. There were a fair amount of paper patch shooters at the Quigley Rifle Shoot in Forsyth MT this summer. That buffalo target doesn't look very big at 800 yards--and a 40+ mph crosswind will make you curse. The pp shooters who knew their guns and sight settings did as well--or better!--as anyone else.

:castmine:

[Black Prince]

I'm ordering books like a bandit right now fellas. Thanks to you boys that sent me a PM. They were a lot of information and I REALLY appreciate it.

[jcadwell]

The other downside to swaging is that you need to use really soft lead, which is more pure, and usually more expensive.

[John Boy]

Prince, here's some reading material to get you started:

http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_52/ai_n16741371/pg_1
http://www.lrml.org/technical/ammunition/patching.htm
http://www.utrechtart.com/dsp_view_products.cfm?classID=1612&subclassID=161211&brandname=Clearprint
http://www.corbins.com/dc-1003.htm
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/board,47.0.html

I shoot the 1874 Sharps PP bullet in my 45-70 using BP ... the whole process is just the thing for a retired caster - reloader - shooter! Just cast 300 (1:20 - 550grs) - rolled 300 and loaded 100. Sure was nice sitting on the back deck, sun and a great breeze, tall glass of ice tea and roll'n - roll'n and roll'n. Believe it was all done on a Tues-Wed and Thur, if ya follow my hint! [smilie=1:

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpg

The above 2 photo's are of boolits from the same swage die, just different weights. The ones on the right are 560grs and just to show the 'Before'. You'll see there is no ledge or groove to roll the leading edge of the paper into. These are boolits to be fired from Whitworth and a Gibbs long range muzzle loaders.

Since they're loaded from the muzzle and not fired from a cartridge, through a throat and into a leade there is no danger of the leading edge getting messed up. If they were to be fired from a cartridge, you'd need to protect the leading edge somehow.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

These 577-450's are loaded with PP'd Lee 457-405F's. Naturally it's a GG boolit. Since it WILL be fired from a cartridge, the leading edge of the patch is over the front drive band so it's angled down. As it enters the leade the lands press the paperdown into the boolit. Some way or another the front edge has to be protected from getting peeled back or otherwise messed up.

http://www.fototime.com/4B4F8E45FDF3C1C/standard.jpg

The above selection are also ones to be fired in the 45 cal long range ML'ers. However there is no reason they couldn't be fired from a cartridge rifle. The 2nd from left slug, the Lyman 457121 P-H is patched over the front band so it could be fired from a cartridge as it is. The big Lyman next to it would have to have it's patch turned into a lube groove or have the patch wide enough to reach just beyond the turn of the ogive.

While I believe the soft lead PP'd slug is the finest hunting bullet there is. However for competition a patched slug is seldom used. The issue here is that the patch is another variable to be contended with, and they feel those are to be avoided :-)

http://www.fototime.com/7F892387129D594/standard.jpg

This is a target fired from the Whitworth at 100 yards. It was with some of those 530gr PP'd slugs above, over 85.0grs of Elephant 2Fg and a lubed felt wad. There are 4 rounds in a scant 1-1/2", but what about that one up high? :-) Was it the patch that didn't release the same as the others? Did the wad stick to the base? Since the slugs were swaged and were all within a total varience of 0.3 gr total spread (NOT 0.6 gr) I doubt the boolit was at fault.

................Buckshot