Happy Day MOA

[Cane_man]

here is my happy dance :happy dance: as I finally found a load that shoots moa on my new 6s point forming die… this was my goal for making this .224 die set and i finally did it after about 8 versions of my point forming die! sorry for spiking the football but this was very hard for me to achieve this and was almost the end of me

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final3001_zpsaa2e92bd.jpg

latter tested loads to find a node, and the groups tightened up at 24 grains of Varget, probably about 2700 fps… I am not a BR shooter just hunting and plinking so these are just right for me… i know for many of you this is average to mediocre, and 3 shots does not necessarily confirm an accurate load, but i am not the best shot so for me this is doing pretty well... i have used this procedure to find accurate loads on several different rifles and i am confident that i am right on it... the groups start out wide then slowly tighten up as i progress on through the incrementally increasing loads and reach the smallest group as the node is hit then the groups start to widen out again :guntootsmiley:

here is the final product, pretty close to the Sierra production bullet (standing up on the right), not quite as a small a meplat but the profile is close enough, but i am pleased that the 0.047" meplat worked out as i tried it on a whim... some may not like that the case was not derimmed to remove the line but i left it like that on purpose so as to have a more robust case that is a little thicker:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final3006_zps717ff2e7.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final3008_zps88852217.jpg


for point forming a couple of things that made a really noticeable difference was 1) tumbling cases shiny new looking before point forming, and 2) moly treating the point forming die

tumbling cases – 1 tbsp of Lemishine, drop of Dawn, hot water, and some 6mm and 3mm ceramic media balls in a small container placed inside the vibratory tumbler, 2 hours and they come out looking like new, gets all the scale off from annealing:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final3010_zps0ca8931f.jpg

also, per a tip from Forrest r I moly treated the inside of the die and it was noticeably easier to use, you can think of the moly treatment as a poor man’s nitriding, this is from Brownell’s for about $17:

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/l_080916002_1.jpg

these two things contributed significantly to having the cases pop right out when ejected, no stuck cases

even got me some 22LR range brass on the way out, the range boss wasn’t too happy with me though, oh well: :shock:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final3002_zps08927a6a.jpg

got a nice supply of swaged 10mm and 223 now, and I am putting away the dies as summer closes here on me and deer season is just around the corner… if my wonderful wife allows it I plan to get a 30-06 at the end of the year so I can hunt with my son next year who will be in Wyoming, and I also try to make some 30 cal dies for it…

as I put the dies away there are lots of little improvements and upgrades to make during winter and early spring… thanks guys for your help and letting me share this with you! :2_high5:

[JRPVT]

Well Done! I have been following your exploits and am glad you made it!

[MOcaster]

Those look beautiful! Congrats.

[supe47]

24.5gr Varget is my Happy Load. Very nice! You should be especially proud. It was easy, wasn't it? You even got a plug in for Ziploc containers.

[bmiller]

Congrats on a job well done!

[BT Sniper]

Nicely done! A lot of work wasn't it! Imagine making 100 sets of them! But I know exactly how you feel with the spiked football and happy dance!

So the moly coat made a difference? Interesting? I thought I read somewhere that the molly when left on a steel surface for a long time might have some adverse effect?????? Not positive but any thoughts?

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[BT Sniper]

One last thing, when you go out shooting to test your bullets be sure you have a "control" to really see how they do. for example.... the same time you are shooting your home made bullets be sure to shoot a group with some factory bullets in the same weather conditions. Then you can see how they do in fair test of same conditions if you where curious. MOA is good to go!

[plus1hdcp]

Congrats and you earned the right to have a happy dance. Very nice write up also.

[supe47]

I think we need a video of "the happy dance".

[Forrest r]

That's extremely impressive!!!!! All's I can say is WOW!!!! Those bullets are over the top, I've bought/shot 1000's of 223's that looked like the cat played with them compared to yours.

Very nice!!!!

Just a small word about moly:
There's a difference between coating steel with moly & impregnating the pores with it. Coating the steel, yes there can be long term problems. Heating the metal & using a oil or grease as a vehicle to carry into the pores of heated metal is different. The excess is wiped off so it can't absorb moisture.

IE: A new car engine is filled with oil & is started and let run to it reaches operating temperature. The moly is added to the oil, it goes into the pores of all the moving parts/metal. The engine is run until the rpm's pick up & then it's shut off & the oil drained & new oil is put in it. The rpm's of the motor increased because the not metal absorbed/got impregnated with the moly. Moly is an extreme lube at the microscopic level. Less friction ='s less heat, parts that move/mesh easier, less wear.

Motors don't rust, don't need breakin periods & use lighter weight oils then in the past (5w-20/5w-30) because of the moly.

I've used moly on bbl's, trigger groups, actions, slides, reloading dies, sizing dies, swagging dies & different tools for 7 or 8 years now & have not seen any rust on anything I've treated with moly yet.

I'm glad the moly worked for you can man & allowed you to take your die making skills to the next level.

[customcutter]

Cane,

Those are some awesome looking bullets. I'm glad you've got a load that will shoot sub MOA. I've been "figuring" all week trying to calculate my next move on the ogive fixture. I'm going to try a pencil grinder, and see if I can modify my fixture to hold it. If not I've got a couple more pieces of 1/2 Al I can sacrifice to the cause. Picked up the pencil grinder last week thinking I could possibly use it for lapping. Went and got some diamond wheels tonight from HF. Just got to get busy in the AM and see what I can piece together.

Again those are some SWEET looking bullets.

CC

[Lizard333]

Very cool. I only wish I had the skill to produce dies. Sure would save on the coin, but I have no problem forking out the coin to those that are "skilled". Very nicely done!

[Cane_man]

thanks guys i appreciate it!

cc, i am thinking that the most important part of the point forming die is the laps... you 'rough profile' the ogive with your reamer, then finish it with the laps... not sure how you can get better laps than to use production bullets! so maybe you dont really need the radial cutter? only thing i know is that you will get these dies completed :)

supe, no way was it easy but i like challenges and i dont give up easy, but i have to admit i was tempted to chuck it all in the trash a few times... its seductive because the other dies are fairly simple to make and you have no idea what you are getting into once you start that point forming die! good tip supe on using the plastic containers with the vibratory tumbler, makes cleanup a breeze...

BT, no way would i want to make 100 sets of these! i had a hobby before that i turned into a business, it was as equally time consuming to make and lucrative as swaging dies (bamboo fly rods, about 50 hours of production time per rod spaced over 4 to 6 weeks) and in the end the money was nice but it burned me out and i eventually decided to quit... kind of soured me on it and 10 years later i have not touched any of my rod making tools :( my steel forms sit in a corner of the garage with a light rust on them...

Forrest r, thanks for the kind words... dude, you really think out of the box and gave me some good solutions on some of the critical challenges of this project- so a special thanks goes to you :2_high5:

alright, you guys sitting on the sidelines have no excuse now... quit waiting for the ups truck to arrive some day and if this middle aged, overweight, unskilled, half tarded, ex-chick-magnet can do this you can too!

[303british.com]

Great looking bullets. Sometimes I polish mine up because they look like gold. In fact, that's why I call them Coyote Gold. I haven't met a coyote yet that will argue. :smile:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullets/Varmintbowl.jpg

All the best.

[customcutter]

Cane,
You might be right about using a production bullet for a lap. I've spent all morning working on my "grinder" and still haven't figured it out. But I'll start another thread on that one.

[customcutter]

Forrest r,

How would you "properly" treat a die, bbl, trigger group, etc with moly? How hot would the parts have to be? What ratio of oil to moly? I know the de-rimming die warms up as I'm popping jackets through it. Just wondering if a little moly in the lubricating oil would work for treating the point forming die?

Sorry if I derailed the thread, back to your normally scheduled event.

CC

[Cane_man]

cc i like threads to run like water let it be where it goes!

i just put the die on top of my toaster to heat it up, then chucked it in the lathe, and put the moly paste on a cloth patch and used it like it was lappping compound... loaded the moly on the cloth patch maybe 5 times, then wiped off the inside and was good to go

[BT Sniper]

Bamboo rods! Cool! From scratch I'm sure. I have made a few of my own fly rods too a Sage and a Lamiglas. Like minds think alike I guess. Actually refinished with new guides and handle a few nice bamboo poles for my dad as well. You must have tied your own flies too? Started tying flies when I was about 10 I suppose. Took me two years to ever catch a fish on anything I created back then. Self taught in making the flies and fishing with them, yes that had a lot to do with taking so long to catch anything :) Well I suppose that is another thread altogether!

Making swage dies now allows me to stay home with the girls. The 9-5 job I had sucked! Airline career was nice for a guy without family but now I will be keeping at it with the swage dies, can't let myself burn out, been 5 years now and don't want to go back to either previous career.

Swage On!

BT

[plus1hdcp]

Making swage dies now allows me to stay home with the girls. The 9-5 job I had sucked! Airline career was nice for a guy without family but now I will be keeping at it with the swage dies, can't let myself burn out, been 5 years now and don't want to go back to either previous career.

Swage On!

BT

I bet the airline job was great while it lasted. My aviation career is in its twilight.

[BT Sniper]

Not to worry +1, your swaging now! :) Yep whole other story. Great job, not what it used to be, not a good job for married or pilots with family and small kids, takes a long tome to make any real money and even longer and more money to obtain the training to get there.

I'll let the thread get back to Cane's good looking bullets!

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[Cane_man]

ya BT making cane rods from the raw bamboo culm all the way to the finish coats of varnish... make the cork grips, reel seat, fittings, wrap the guides, make the ferrules (that is why i already have a lathe, ferrules are much easier to make than point forming dies!), sew the bag and make the tube, dip the rod in many coats of varnish, then polish and wax...

and why buy flies when you can tie your own, of course! started tying flies when i was 12... LOL, similar paths

[BT Sniper]

YEP! COOL! Man.......! Bamboo rod from raw bamboo! Nope you got me there! Did you build and fly RC airplanes too? Take several years to catch a steelhead? Ahhhh..... the stories! Similar pathes indeed!

Swage on!

BT

[customcutter]

Well, being this has gone off topic. Yep, I've built a few custom rods as well. Used to take 9' 10 wt fly rods and make spinning rods out of them. You can throw a jumbo shrimp about a 100 yds with one. Great for snook fishing. As the name implies used to also make custom knives from ATS-34. Made a couple hundred then got promoted from shift supv. to asst supt. No time for it and it kind of sits on the side now. Used to make about $5/hr making them, but it was fun. Hopefully BT is making more than that making dies.:)

CC

[Prospector Howard]

I'll say congrats too. They do look good, and you did this on a crummy chinese lathe; imagine that. One thing that I'm curious about, did you sort the brass by manufacturer, or make them up without sorting and then shoot your groups also without sorting? From the pictures and what you wrote in a previous post; you said you were using one derim punch at .195. It looks like some ironed out the rim flatter than others, (some have that little line and some don't). I'm sure you know this already but, sorting does make a difference in accuracy; especially when shooting groups. If you are using only one punch, may I suggest to try making another one 3 thousandths smaller diameter and use that for the thicker cases (Fed and CCI). I think you'll find that you'll get more consistent results and as you say "leave a more robust case that is a little thicker". Again good work, there's nothing more gratifying than making something yourself from scratch that actually works really well.

[Cane_man]

Howard, i used only Federal brass for this test...

[monmouth]

Congrats, those are great looking projectiles. Did you wet tumble the cases before derimming?

[Cane_man]

hey monmouth, i used the HF ultrasonic cleaner before derimming... tbsp of Lemishine and a few drops f Dawn dish soap in hot water, in the clearner for about 20'... anneal, then used 6mm/3mm ceramic media with Lemishine/Dawn in the vibratory tumbler for 2 hours to remove all the scale before core seating and point forming...

[monmouth]

hey monmouth, i used the HF ultrasonic cleaner before derimming... tbsp of Lemishine and a few drops f Dawn dish soap in hot water, in the clearner for about 20'... anneal, then used 6mm/3mm ceramic media with Lemishine/Dawn in the vibratory tumbler for 2 hours to remove all the scale before core seating and point forming...

Thank you for the response.

[Nickle]

I use an RCBS ultrasonic cleaner myself. A couple packets of lemon Kool Aid (main ingredient - citric acid) and a squirt of Dawn or two.

[supe47]

Lemi Shine at Walmart, under $4. Lasts a long time.

[Theditchman]

nice bullets