Poured Concrete Safe

[bogorman]

My wife and I are looking at putting an addition on the house with a poured concrete basement, which will be my new reloading/casting/etc. room, and I got to thinking about possibly having a few more forms set and pouring two walls in a corner with an opening for a door and making a built in gun safe. I'd have to find a vault door or some other reinforced door, but the additional concrete cost would be considerably less than a good safe and I could make it any size I want. Anyone have any experience or thoughts on doing something like this, pros and cons. Thanks

[GRUMPA]

I saw the header and just had to find out how you can pour concrete in an unsafe manner. Oh well.....

[badboyparamedic]

Have also been thinking about doing the same thing, gonna have to follow this thread.

[dnotarianni]

Nice idea but plan on a couple holes in the concrete for air ventilation in and out and also what are you planning on using for the top of the concrete safe or can I come by with a chainsaw and cut a hole in the floor overhead and help myself.

Dave

[dragon813gt]

Many companies sell vault doors so they're easy to find. But they aren't cheap. To make it secure I would reenforce the exposed walls and pour them out of high psi concrete. You will have to pour a celling as well. Which is rather easy if you're doing it at the time of construction. Again make sure it's reenforced and poured of the same high psi concrete. You are going to need to make sure you have power in the room. And since most basements leak, eventually, how do you plan on removing any water that could potentially enter the room?

[williamwaco]

Many years ago, I built a records vault exactly like you are talking about.
It worked out very well and cost very little compared to other alternatives ( at the time ).

[Randy C]

It would make a good safe room / tornado shelter have a generator set up for power and video cameras wireless computer hook up's CB / ham Radio, beer mister what the heck TV and a grill if you get hungry, you may never leave I think you will have a lot of new friends. OOOOO don't forget it is a reloading / gun safe.

[Bored1]

Sounds like a great idea, especially since you are looking at if from the construction time. What about just adding a drain to the middle of the floor like in the laundry rooms of basements to deal with any future leaking?

[jeepyj]

Great idea but as others have mentioned ventilation is the key. Concrete will wick water a dehumidifier would likly be a help. Our home has a air exchange and that helps a lot but I still wouldn't store my firearms there certain times of the year. As far as a door goes one could easily craft something that would pin into the concrete on both sides with stele rods. Good luck!
Jeepyj

[Cosmiceyes]

Did you think about just pouring a separate room out side of the basement? Then a entry through the wall use plenty of rebar all around,attract few questions,and is more invisible.

[wv109323]

Guns in a basement need some special consideration. First is humidity. You will probably need a dehumidifier under normal conditions. The second is flooding. Is there any chance that the basement can flood from outside conditions.(Rain ,High Water, Flood Plane). Can the basement flood from internal sources? (Burst water line, Washing machine leak Roof Leak)
Also if there is a house fire all the water used to fight the fire ends up in the basement.
I would never put long guns on the floor. I would keep them up as high as possible and size the room so that all guns are kept up off the floor. This amounts to wasted space but something I would do.. I might consider a door that is up off the floor. (a step through door). That way with solid walls 2-3" of water in the basement should not be able to run in under the door. I would also think about disguising the room to look like a basement cellar to the unknowing.

[GabbyM]

Your door frame is set in before pouring the concrete. Rebar is welded onto the frame.

[pmer]

Maybe hit up a few Lock and Safe shops in your area and see if they have any vault doors. A old Diebold Lock and Safe Co. or Herring Hall Marvin door would look really cool. Even a door for a file vault would work, they are not as heavy and usually have a handle for opening from the inside.

[smoked turkey]

I know of at least three fortunate guys who have that set up. One in particular has the Fort Knox door. I believe you are on the right track and won't regret it. I second or third the idea of running your duct work into the room for comfort control as well as some humidity control. I think you should also do the drain idea to carry off not only your dehumidifier water but also in case of water in the area. One of the guys just left the 4x8 sheets of plywood up he used to contain the concrete and painted them. He used lots of 2x12s with 6x6 posts for bracing during the pour. Lots and lots of Rebar with emphasis on a layer on each side, bottom and top. I would put in some conduit sleeves near the top for later entry of electric lines and you might want to consider hard wired telephone and computer lines as well. One last thing..make it bigger than you are thinking because you will quickly run out of room if you are not careful. Good building to you you fortunate stiff.

[gmsharps]

If you plan on using it as a safe room as well make sure you have a ventilation tube and when choosing a door make sure you have the type that has a way to open it from the inside.

gmsharps

[Iowa Fox]

Several of my neighbors have vaulted door gun rooms in the basement. My Brother got the vault door from a company that was being torn down for $25 in excellent shape with combination. These doors are made to be poured into concrete walls. You have to have the equipment for the salvage operations. His plans are to vault a room in the basement if he ever builds a house. Another one of my neighbors put an underground shooting range in off his basement. The first 25 yards is 8X8 then he used 36"concrete pipe out to 100 yrds. Noise is a big thing for him and he is trying all kinds of stuff to reduce it. Talk about a lead mine at the end of the tunnel.

[Just Duke]

An aquaintence of our owns a gun shop in OR and he dumps a bucket of water a day from his dehumidifier. He's at ground level. He said the concrete vault was the biggest mistake he ever made.

[mikeyjones]

An aquaintence of our owns a gun shop in OR and he dumps a bucket of water a day from his dehumidifier. He's at ground level. He said the concrete vault was the biggest mistake he ever made.

Seems that can be avoided with a sump pump setup.

[dragon813gt]

An aquaintence of our owns a gun shop in OR and he dumps a bucket of water a day from his dehumidifier. He's at ground level. He said the concrete vault was the biggest mistake he ever made.

But that's the point of a dehumidifier. If it's in his vault he should have made provisions for it. Having a bunch of penetrations through the concrete isn't very good for fire protection. But some forethought would have helped. Placing the dehumidifier on some blocks(so the condensate will gravity out) and running a hose out of the vault into a simple condensate pump saves having to empty it manually.

I know they're more money but if I was going to build a vault it would have a ductless split in it. Dehumidifies can heat rooms up to uncomfortable levels if they're in a humid environment. A ductless split would give you temp control along w/ dehumidification. They're also cheaper to run as it won't be running nearly as much as a dehumidifier. The dehumidifier in my basement costs an average of $40 a month to run in the summer. And it heats my basement up to 85 degrees.

[Just Duke]

I'm just the messenger.....

[wallenba]

Many factory floors use a mix of concrete and steel to resist wear from hilo's and equipment. Might be worth looking into.

http://www.quality-concrete.net/library/class/Concrete_Industrial_Floors.pdf

[OuchHot!]

Sturdy Safe sells a door and I recall following a thread from their site to a forum where a fellow documents his vault room. He put drainage in the floor to a sump pump in a corner that could also be run off battery in case of a power outage. This was a fairly informative thread. Do not set a safe directly on concrete...it will eventually rust out.

[OBIII]

Send a PM to winelover. He kept us regaled with tales and pictures of his home building adventure, and I believe he did the same thing in the basement of the house he was building. I am not a concrete expert, but I would think that you could have an "extrusion" out of one of the walls (as someone said earlier), it could be fairly wide, and have rebar set in the sides so that when you decide on a door, you can pour additional concrete around the rebar areas to fit the door. Hopefully an expert will set me straight on this.
Good Luck. (I have no basement. :sad:) But I am thinking about building into the back hill behind my house. :p
OB

P.S. Don't forget about the top. Plywood is easy to cut through. :idea:

[xs11jack]

I have a poured concrete basement here in Mo. near St.Louis. My humidity stays around 50% year round. I think it would fluctuate a lot more if the concrete was in the form of blocks, which can be more pourius. I don't know much about humidity in vaults but in computer labs I worked in, the humidity was kept at 50 or 55%.
Ole Jack

[mroliver77]

Outside drainage is one of the first things to consider. Here in Oh we live in what was a swamp 200 years ago. We a,ways put tile around the perimeter of a basement and hopefully have had the forethought to have a natural drainage situation(fall to a creek or farm (tile). If there is no fall we use a sump pump but when power goes out for a long time your screwed.

http://www.smithsecuritysafes.com/
A friend used to weld here. This fellow is a good guy and will work with you.
Jay

[Ramar]

Consider a vault door that swings in if the room is going to double as a tornado shelter. A door that swings out can easily be blocked by fallen debris from up above and a chain saw can be real handy if stored inside. Don't forget to let a trusted person know where your shelter is in case no communications from you.

Plywood on sleeper 2X4s make for a good floor. It can cost you a bundle to waterproof the the exterior walls but it's well worth it and it really cuts down on the moisture inside. Can't make it too big and a bed helps when there's over night sirens going off.

[willie_pete]

I built a concrete house in 2009 using ICF's ( insulated concrete forms ). The builder also used them to make an in house vault/tornado/safe room. I have a Ft Knox door in the vault that can be opened from the inside. The master bedroom and entry hallway is also concrete. The house has about 330 ft^3 of concrete in it. I use a small room humidifier in the vault and have not had any problems with it since it was built.

WP

[Randy C]

I would have a dehumidifier for you vault / safe, that was hooked to a drain that way you don't have to worry about it if you are out of town. I know my basement will rust my presses if I don't keep them oiled I need to buy a dehumidifier for my gun room.

[fouronesix]

I built a concrete house in 2009 using ICF's ( insulated concrete forms ). The builder also used them to make an in house vault/tornado/safe room. I have a Ft Knox door in the vault that can be opened from the inside. The master bedroom and entry hallway is also concrete. The house has about 330 ft^3 of concrete in it. I use a small room humidifier in the vault and have not had any problems with it since it was built.

WP

Did the same thing in my ICF house. But it's a one story and the humidity here is usually very low. Have a couple of the large silica gel boxes in the built-in vault that keep it between 25-35%.

bogorman,
Like a few others have posted, if your usual humidity is high or the ground around the foundation is usually wet or it is in a basement.... look out! Basements are notorious as humidity traps and turn into swimming pools during floods, water leaks or the result of fire fighting efforts. Not impossible to prevent/mitigate correctly but plan accordingly.

[WilliamDahl]

"Basements"? Around here, we call those "indoor swimming pools".

[merlin101]

I saw the header and just had to find out how you can pour concrete in an unsafe manner. Oh well.....

Ask Jimmy Hoffa!

[sparkz]

Might try salvage companys who my be reworking small town banks for vault doors the humidy will be a killer but you can run it right into a drain so dont have to dump water, A small resistor aray will keep that down too (we use to use a system like that in elect. controls outdoors, they stay warm 24/7) might also look a CC system for whole house and kept in this room so you have recordings of any bad guys if needed, just be carful to not keep tools in basement to open door, ie; grinder, torch, ect.
better to get wet in a fire then be heat damaged or gone, I also poured a footing for a room like this in my house just never did walls as of yet but footings are under slab now in corner,
So I am all for it,, haha

Patrick

[mold maker]

Saturday, two weeks ago, we got 10-13" of rain in 8 hrs according to which part of town you live in. Everyone I have talked to, (with a basement) had an indoor swimming pool.
I'm accustomed to a little water, and have 2 floor drains and a pump. I still had several inches that the drains, and pump, couldn't handle. Both my Son and SIL had about 7" in their basements for the same reason. There are still 11 out of 27 roads closed due to washouts.
All this is to say that when you put valuables in your basement, don't think they are safe, and unless you have FLOOD ins, it's all on you.
I don't think you can make enough provisions to totally eliminate the danger of water. It will creep places that air can't. It can and will wick through concrete.
Build your shelter in the basement, and use it as the foundation for a concrete safe upstairs. Regular locked interior doors can hide your safe door. It will be much easier to waterproof, than below grade, and just as fire and theft proof.

[remy3424]

"Consider a vault door that swings in if the room is going to double as a tornado shelter. A door that swings out can easily be blocked by fallen debris from up above"...Ramar, that is great thinking! and some ******* couldn't block or wedge you in easily. I have to friends who have concrete gun/reloading rooms, but they are not below grade. One used a commerical fireproof vault door and the other got a old vault door from the local elevator when the rebuilt they office building. Not too sure why they had that big of a walk-in vault, but they did.

[WilliamDahl]

Saturday, two weeks ago, we got 10-13" of rain in 8 hrs according to which part of town you live in. Everyone I have talked to, (with a basement) had an indoor swimming pool.
I'm accustomed to a little water, and have 2 floor drains and a pump. I still had several inches that the drains, and pump, couldn't handle. Both my Son and SIL had about 7" in their basements for the same reason. There are still 11 out of 27 roads closed due to washouts.
All this is to say that when you put valuables in your basement, don't think they are safe, and unless you have FLOOD ins, it's all on you.
I don't think you can make enough provisions to totally eliminate the danger of water. It will creep places that air can't. It can and will wick through concrete.

Back in June of 2001, the Houston/Galveston area was hit be a tropical storm that just popped up off the coast of Galveston one day -- Tropical Storm Allison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Allison). It was a slow moving storm that went up to East Texas and then doubled back and hit us again. At one point, 28 inches of rain (http://www.hcfcd.org/F_tsa_overview.html) fell within a 12 hour period near downtown. Houston has an underground tunnel system that links many of the basement levels of the various buildings downtown. There was quite a bit of flooding in there.

http://automodia.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/tsa4.jpg

And this wasn't even from a storm surge, just from a lot of rain.



Build your shelter in the basement, and use it as the foundation for a concrete safe upstairs. Regular locked interior doors can hide your safe door. It will be much easier to waterproof, than below grade, and just as fire and theft proof.

Or build a room on the 1st floor that you put your safe in, but make it accessible only from the vault that is in the basement.

[3006guns]

Two points:

1.) Get a contractor to do the basement pour for you as this will involve installing plastic under the floor prior to the pour and coating the outside of the walls with waterproofing after the forms are removed. This is standard practice and all but eliminates most water problems, although if you have water problems in your area like the post above.............:(

2.) Assuming the "outside" water can't get in, build your inside walls with a couple of small screened vents at the top of the vault and a couple more at the bottom. Not big ones, some 2" ABS set in the walls should work. Since you've installed electricity (right?) place an ordinary big box fan in the vault and turn it on low. All you have to do is keep the air circulating and everything should remain dry. It doesn't take much movement to prevent condensation.

I have about 15 antique flywheel engines stored in a cargo container that exhibited rust the first winter. I was panicked as I put a lot of effort into those babies. There is no power and frankly I didn't know what to do. A fellow engine nut suggested a wind powered turbine ventilator like you see on barns, which I installed. That gentle moving air pretty much cured the problem in a scenario that's far more difficult to solve than being in a nice warm house! :)

[bogorman]

Guys,
I really appreciate the plethora of responses. I haven't checked back in a while and was amazed. As for a couple of issues that were brought up. Obviously a plywood top defeats the purpose, I was figuring either poured concrete or a permanently attached piece of 3/4 or 1 inch steel plate. The house is situated fairly well as far as drainage, and has easy access for basement drains to a large ditch that also serves as an overflow for my pond. Additionally elevation wise we are not in a flood prone area. Moisture I was hoping to deal with by properly waterproofing and installing perimeter drains. Not sure at this point as far as size, I was initially thinking primarily large gun safe rather than fallout/tornado shelter. But will have to consider both options. I figured on leaving the door out for now with an oversize opening, as I have seen a number of vault doors at auctions and have a friend that follows them closely. If i could pick up one later fairly cheap it could be poured or pinned in place at that time.

[Ramar]

bogorman,
A steel buck door and metal frame is real inexpensive and has to be installed during the concrete pouring for maximum strength. The "in swing" hinged steel door can be left off until needed for security. Any vault door can be breached in time and a basement vault probably would be out of the way and not likely be insight of neighbors view aiding to its invasion.

Your out of sight location is its strongest point and for that reason you might consider a security compromise with saving on the cost of construction with a double layer of 3/4" T&G plywood installed perpendicular in place of a concrete ceiling/floor.

Every basement can be made water proof and the humidity level controlled. My relatives come from Holland where living below sea level is the way of life.
Ramar

[willie_pete]

The top of my safe room is poured concrete. It was built as the one floor house was being built and was poured before the roof trusses were on.

WP

[schutzen]

I have a concrete vault room. Here are some of the mistakes I made and some of the good ideas I had.
1) Have a floor drain in the vault. I have only need mine when I clean up, but did you ever try to mop a tile floor dry? It is a lot easier with a floor drain.
2) Tie a separate 3/4" condensate drain to the floor drain line for a dehumidifier. I ran mine back to the upper downstream side of the P-Trap for the floor drain. This keeps the P-Trap full of water and seals sewer gas from your vault. Yes, the dehumidifier will dry the P-Trap out ans you are recycling the water, but mine works well. I have not had a gun rust in the vault in 20 years.
3) Run at least 2 120V A/C circuits into the vault. A separte circuit for the dehumidifier is a good idea. The second will power your lights and any general convience recepetacles you want.
4) Ventilation is required for larger rooms. My guess is if you exceed 500 square feet you need a vent. If you install a vent insure it has a fire damper. This is usually a damper with a fuseable link that closes when the link melts.
5) Make your room a least twice the size you think you need. This was my biggest mistake. You will be surprised the things you decide you want to store in your vault beside your firearms. Archived family photos, the wife's silver, emergency cash, I keep my emergency tornado supplies in there; the list is endless and your family will help add to it.
6) The inward opening door sounds good, but I have never seen records vault door that opens in. This is not really compatable with the normal construction of this type door. My answer was to place a 10 ton hydralic jack and several 4X4's in the back cornor of the vault. If the house were to fall in and block the door, I hope to be able to force the door open with hydralic pressure. My not be the best idea, but it was the only one I could come up with. I also have several trusted friends that know to come check on us in the event of a major storm.
7) Most records vault doors (you do not want a bank vault door est 5-6 tons vs a records vault door at 1/2 -1 ton) are made to install in 12" thick walls. I had mine poured 12" thick with a double mat of #5 rebar 6" on- center. (3" concrete, rebar mat, 6" concrete, rebar mat, 3" concrete).
8) Place firestop putty in your conduit leading into the vault.
9) Install an acoustic tile ceiling in the vault. It is surprising how loud sounds are in a concrete room.

Good luck

[markshere2]

I have experienced hydraulic jacks that do not work in the horizontal position.
I would conduct a functional test if I were going to bet my life on the equipment.

[JKH]

Bogorman,

Anywhere near Cuba in the souhern tier?

Jeff

[rondog]

Man, you guys are talking about one of my fondest pipe dreams! Our house has a big L-shaped concrete patio, if that was removed and dug up we could put in a huge addition to our basement. I'd want a BIG gun room, not just a small vault, but a big room with a vault door. A place where I could keep everything and do my reloading, and have my rifles mounted on the walls for display.

I wouldn't even consider this without having it done professionally, I'd certainly want it dry as a bone, ventilated, yadda-yadda. But since there's no way I could ever afford it, it's just a dream. Besides, I'd still have to schlep everything up the stairs whenever I wanted to go shooting, and I HATE doing that. My knees and my back hate it even more. So, I'll have to settle for a big safe in the garage someday. Someday..... Sucks being 57 and unemployed.

[bogorman]

Up in southern Erie county

[WilliamDahl]

So, I'll have to settle for a big safe in the garage someday.

The problem with putting a safe in a garage is that you make it too easy for the criminals. Garage doors are not very secure and once they get in there, they can just back a truck up to your safe and put the safe in the back of it. Even if you bolt it to the slab, they can use their truck to break the anchor bolts. If you put it in your house and bolt it to the slab, they have to do a bit more effort to break the anchor bolts and even after that, they would have the maneuver the safe out of the house.

[rondog]

The problem with putting a safe in a garage is that you make it too easy for the criminals. Garage doors are not very secure and once they get in there, they can just back a truck up to your safe and put the safe in the back of it. Even if you bolt it to the slab, they can use their truck to break the anchor bolts. If you put it in your house and bolt it to the slab, they have to do a bit more effort to break the anchor bolts and even after that, they would have the maneuver the safe out of the house.

Thank you, but I know all that. There isn't any place in our house to put a large safe, I have to play with the cards I was dealt. Thankfully we live in a very nice neighborhood. And FWIW, when I finally do get a big safe in the garage, it will be bolted down and I plan to build a painted wooden cabinet around it. Nobody will see the safe, just a big gray storage cabinet.

[dnotarianni]

The problem with putting a safe in a garage is that you make it too easy for the criminals. Garage doors are not very secure and once they get in there, they can just back a truck up to your safe and put the safe in the back of it. Even if you bolt it to the slab, they can use their truck to break the anchor bolts. If you put it in your house and bolt it to the slab, they have to do a bit more effort to break the anchor bolts and even after that, they would have the maneuver the safe out of the house.

Once you open any door in my house or anything bigger than the Yorkie moves in any room the alarm goes off. Nobody's backing up to my safe! Have been considering a moat around the house also but that doesn't quite fit the description of a swimming pool.

[novalty]

My father-in-law runs a garage, and one of his customers had a poured vault in his basement. Said when he had a house fire it cooked and ruined the guns in the "safe." Probably a result of poor planning, but I would think that would need to be a big consideration in the construction.

[geargnasher]

12" of concrete with several sides backed with earth takes a LONG time to get hot, especially if the fire is above and the room intrusions appropriately fire-sealed per some of the excellent recommendations here.

Gear

[justashooter]

Or build a room on the 1st floor that you put your safe in, but make it accessible only from the vault that is in the basement.

A friend of mine did a "to the walls" renovation of an older house. he designed in a room on the first floor that you cannot tell is there. it is accessible only from the basement thru a trapdoor, with a ladder. i helped him wire the house in framing, so i know it's there. nobody else does. sometimes i think i'm gonna wake up dead one day.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I can't speak of pouring cement for basements our how to keep the water out. I remember we could never keep it out of our basement where I grew up in southeast Mo. I can talk a bit about walk in safes. I took one home once complete with door frame and I saw many more in old buildings that where being torn down. If you live in an area with old abandonded warehouses or factories then you can usually find one. They all had them. When I got the door home I checked on the price of steel for alls of the safe. I found I could buy a new safe cheaper than I could buy the sheet steel. I sold the door for two hundred dollars.