Homemade Swage Die Questions

[GASwager]

I am planning on making my own pistol caliber swage dies. I plan on getting a custom bit made to chamber my dies for one step swaging. I will then drill and tap the top of the die to accept a punch to form the hollow point. When choosing the right diameter chamber size, should I simply, for example, use .400 for .40SW or should I go .399 to account for springback? I will be annealing 9mm brass for jackets, but may want to use copper/brass tubing as well.

Also, would I need to make a special punch for the ram to form the base of the bullet in the event that I just use tubing? As you can tell Im still trying to wrap my head around the finer details.

Given the fact that a custom bit for drilling tool steel will be expensive, I definitely need to get this right the first time around!

I have been reading applicable threads but cant seem to put this in concrete. Thanks for any help you can provide!

[Cane_man]

I am planning on making my own pistol caliber swage dies. I plan on getting a custom bit made to chamber my dies for one step swaging. I will then drill and tap the top of the die to accept a punch to form the hollow point. When choosing the right diameter chamber size, should I simply, for example, use .400 for .40SW or should I go .399 to account for springback? I will be annealing 9mm brass for jackets, but may want to use copper/brass tubing as well.

Also, would I need to make a special punch for the ram to form the base of the bullet in the event that I just use tubing? As you can tell Im still trying to wrap my head around the finer details.

Given the fact that a custom bit for drilling tool steel will be expensive, I definitely need to get this right the first time around!

I have been reading applicable threads but cant seem to put this in concrete. Thanks for any help you can provide!

oh man, this road you are going down is addicting, making your own dies :) answers to some of your questions as best i can:

when you say "chambering" do you mean drilling, boring, and/or reaming?

custom reamers are expensive, but i assume you have a lathe and you might want to learn how to make your own... for pistol swaging dies all you really need is a D-reamer and these are fairly simple to make using some W1 or O1...

or, if you want to avoid the time consuming and much more difficult point forming die for now, you can use a Lee 220 Swift case sizing die which will make a real nice truncated cone ogive... it has its short comings but for range practice and plinking it is a simple solution... however, if you want a real challenge then tackle the point forming die now, it is easier to make for pistol than rifle due to the fact that is is basically a thru hole die because of the larger meplat and rifle point dies are blind hole because of the tiny meplat...

what type of press are you using, a reloading press? not sure about threading the top of the die for a top punch, if you do this how will you eject the bullet after point forming?

allow for springback, this is a good idea... for my 0.40SW/10mm dies i size to 0.3995 for final sizing... if you don't have one already a quality micrometer (not caliper) is a must imo if you are making dies at home if for nothing more than giving you some sense of peace that you are not over-sizing your swaged bullets...

swaging tubing, i have not done this as it is more involved than using 9mm jackets but there are some good threads on how to do this...

"cant seem to put this in concrete" - i can relate to this, took me several weeks of pretty involved study to understand what the heck is going on... here is a quick snapshot of what you will be doing for your 0.40SW dies:

1) size cores - whatever lead cores you use (cast boolits, lead wire, etc.) you need to make sure it is the right length and diameter and have a process to do this consistently

2) seat cores - squish the core inside the jacket so that the final OD is about 0.001 to 0.002 of your point forming OD... the cores are seated with the mouth of the 9mm case on the punch and enter the die head first and sized to 0.398 to 0.399

3) point forming - put the ogive on the bullet and size to final OD, the head of the 9mm jacket is on the punch to do this and enters the die mouth first

4) final sizing - some do this and some dont but for peace of mind i put all my bullets thru a final sizing die to make sure they are not oversized and aim for 0.3995 to 0.4000

some things to look into:

-what material will you make your dies out of?
-how will you heat treat the dies?
-what material will you make you punches out of?
-how are you going to size your cores? (many of us just use 9mm or 357 Mag cast boolits)
-if you buy a reamer for the pointing die how are you going to lap it, and how will you make the laps? (the lapping is where the money is made with the point forming die)

[customcutter]

Only 1 thing I can add to Cane Man's breakdown. Make sure you are using pure (soft) lead, for your cores. Easier on your dies. Keep us informed of your progress.

CC

[GASwager]

Thanks for the run down Cane.

I am actually going to use a drill press to chamber the dies. But really what I need to know now is how to go about setting up the tip punch and retaining it while allow it to be sprung for ejection. Any ideas?

I dont own a lathe so I may end up finding someone who does to thread them. Or just use a pipe threading die.

Oh and as far as heat treating, I will be using tool steel. How does that work for that?

[customcutter]

Gas,
Here is a link for you. http://www.rtconnect.net/~wjmanley/SAS_Die_making/SASswagedie.pdf

Also check out post #27 in the "Sticky" on this page concerning a "Rifle Magazine Article" IIRC, there are a couple of good articles there also.

Pipe threads are different from machine threads (bolts).

"Tool Steel" covers a wide variety of steels. It is basically a steel with a higher carbon content, that can therefore be hardened. You will not be able to machine it unless it has been annealed, or drastically tempered back from full hardness. You will want to machine it in the annealed state, including reaming, then harden it before doing the final lapping. That will give you a chance to clean it up after heat treating, plus remove any warpage due to heat treating.

Hope this helps,
CC

[williamwaco]

Gas,
Here is a link for you. http://www.rtconnect.net/~wjmanley/SAS_Die_making/SASswagedie.pdf

Also check out post #27 in the "Sticky" on this page concerning a "Rifle Magazine Article" IIRC, there are a couple of good articles there also.

Pipe threads are different from machine threads (bolts).

"Tool Steel" covers a wide variety of steels. It is basically a steel with a higher carbon content, that can therefore be hardened. You will not be able to machine it unless it has been annealed, or drastically tempered back from full hardness. You will want to machine it in the annealed state, including reaming, then harden it before doing the final lapping. That will give you a chance to clean it up after heat treating, plus remove any warpage due to heat treating.

Hope this helps,
CC



I used to own one of the Mity-Mite presses he is talking about.
It was really easy to use and made fantastic bullets.
They were every bit as accurate as Sierra or Speer.

.

[Cane_man]

Thanks for the run down Cane.

I am actually going to use a drill press to chamber the dies. But really what I need to know now is how to go about setting up the tip punch and retaining it while allow it to be sprung for ejection. Any ideas?

I dont own a lathe so I may end up finding someone who does to thread them. Or just use a pipe threading die.

Oh and as far as heat treating, I will be using tool steel. How does that work for that?

that is going to be a pretty good trick if you can do all of this for pistol dies with just a drill press... i think CB member here "Forrest r" is doing it this way but I am not exactly sure how...

this is how i am doing my top punch right now for 0.40SW, but it is not a conical hollow point, it is flat but works fine:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2234496&viewfull=1#post2234496

you can pipe thread dies or make inserts that drop into a Lee expanding die as i am doing and this way you don't have to thread anything...

heat treating tool steel is not too difficult at home, just know if your material requires quenching in water/oil/air, this is how i am heat treating O1 tool steel at home:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2234496&viewfull=1#post2234496

if you can afford it, a bench top lathe at the very least will make this project much more doable at home... lots of fun :2gunsfiring_v1:

[GASwager]

Excellent information there. Thank you very much. I have a friend who is what I would consider a professional machinist. He is going to help me through this. I am going to start with a set of dies for swaging .40. Once I get it down and have made a few boolits for proof, would there be any interest in buying some? I am already in the process of producing some presses so that will be available first.

[Cane_man]

be careful with the Obammy marxist regime as you need an FFL to sell swaged bullets as you are now considered a "manufacturer"... there are guys on here doing this with an FFL but you have to be government approved $$$ i am sure your machinist friend will help you through the hard parts of this project... good luck it is very gratifying to shoot bullets you swaged on our own dies...

[GASwager]

I would be selling the dies not bullets.

[GASwager]

oh man, this road you are going down is addicting, making your own dies :) answers to some of your questions as best i can:

when you say "chambering" do you mean drilling, boring, and/or reaming?

Ihave decided on purchasing a lathe. Probably going for a benchtop grizzly model.

custom reamers are expensive, but i assume you have a lathe and you might want to learn how to make your own... for pistol swaging dies all you really need is a D-reamer and these are fairly simple to make using some W1 or O1...

Noted. Thanks!

or, if you want to avoid the time consuming and much more difficult point forming die for now, you can use a Lee 220 Swift case sizing die which will make a real nice truncated cone ogive... it has its short comings but for range practice and plinking it is a simple solution... however, if you want a real challenge then tackle the point forming die now, it is easier to make for pistol than rifle due to the fact that is is basically a thru hole die because of the larger meplat and rifle point dies are blind hole because of the tiny meplat...

This is where it will get really redneck. I want to make a point forming die that will create a flat/soft point as well as a hollow point. I figured I could use the point forming punch coming through the top of the die as ejection as well. The punch would simply max out to impact the point of the jword and form the cavity for the hollowpoint. Atleast thats what sounds right in my mind. Maybe you could shed some light on this idea? It would need to be depth adjustable as well.

what type of press are you using, a reloading press? not sure about threading the top of the die for a top punch, if you do this how will you eject the bullet after point forming?

I will be making a press, but will want to be able to use a Lee Classic Cast or Rockchucker.

allow for springback, this is a good idea... for my 0.40SW/10mm dies i size to 0.3995 for final sizing... if you don't have one already a quality micrometer (not caliper) is a must imo if you are making dies at home if for nothing more than giving you some sense of peace that you are not over-sizing your swaged bullets...

.3995... I am a fan of splitting the difference whenever possible. That sounds like a good idea there.

swaging tubing, i have not done this as it is more involved than using 9mm jackets but there are some good threads on how to do this...

From what I understand it requires forming the base whereas the casing jacket method has that taken care of. Not a big deal. I will mostly use 9mm casings anyways.

"cant seem to put this in concrete" - i can relate to this, took me several weeks of pretty involved study to understand what the heck is going on... here is a quick snapshot of what you will be doing for your 0.40SW dies:

1) size cores - whatever lead cores you use (cast boolits, lead wire, etc.) you need to make sure it is the right length and diameter and have a process to do this consistently

2) seat cores - squish the core inside the jacket so that the final OD is about 0.001 to 0.002 of your point forming OD... the cores are seated with the mouth of the 9mm case on the punch and enter the die head first and sized to 0.398 to 0.399

3) point forming - put the ogive on the bullet and size to final OD, the head of the 9mm jacket is on the punch to do this and enters the die mouth first

4) final sizing - some do this and some dont but for peace of mind i put all my bullets thru a final sizing die to make sure they are not oversized and aim for 0.3995 to 0.4000

some things to look into:

-what material will you make your dies out of?
-how will you heat treat the dies?
-what material will you make you punches out of?
-how are you going to size your cores? (many of us just use 9mm or 357 Mag cast boolits)
-if you buy a reamer for the pointing die how are you going to lap it, and how will you make the laps? (the lapping is where the money is made with the point forming die)

That clears it up. In fact, your thread helpedout ALOT. Big thanks and props. I will be consulting the internet, this forum search, and my friend for the final decision on that. Probably use your method as a starting/vantage point for creating a one step die with different point options.

Thanks!

[DukeInFlorida]

I, for one, would NEVER buy anything from you IF you are using a drill press to try to do the work of a lathe. And, the questions that you are asking leads most of us to believe that you don't know much about machining, to even start with.

If you were inquiring to make a set of dies for yourself, fine. We would help you all we can!

But, you have already indicated that you are looking to make die sets for sale. Ummmmmmm, either you are yanking our chains (you wouldn't be the first one), or you have big pipe dreams. Not even sure what kind of pipe.

I'm off my soap box now.

Damn, where are these people coming from?


Thanks for the run down Cane.

I am actually going to use a drill press to chamber the dies. But really what I need to know now is how to go about setting up the tip punch and retaining it while allow it to be sprung for ejection. Any ideas?

I dont own a lathe so I may end up finding someone who does to thread them. Or just use a pipe threading die.

Oh and as far as heat treating, I will be using tool steel. How does that work for that?

[Cane_man]

^^^ u being a little harsh? LOL... i know you are BT's #1 fan, but just remember that BT started exactly the same way GASwager is right now on this very forum... knowing very little of die making, reading the forum, asking questions, and making prototype dies to see what he could do and how far he could take it...

instead of giving him a smack down maybe you should give him some encouragement and share your knowledge and experience with him, as i for one respect you as one who has a lot of good die making/using advice to share here...

[Cane_man]

Thanks!

any way i can help just ask, others will chime etc. the guys who really know (and i dont really count myself as that) won't usually offer advice unless you ask them! who really knows and who doesn't? well just pm them and see what happens...


This is where it will get really redneck. I want to make a point forming die that will create a flat/soft point as well as a hollow point. I figured I could use the point forming punch coming through the top of the die as ejection as well. The punch would simply max out to impact the point of the jword and form the cavity for the hollowpoint. Atleast thats what sounds right in my mind. Maybe you could shed some light on this idea? It would need to be depth adjustable as well.

you got it right... shape the top eject punch to what you are looking for inside the bullet... you want a conical cavity hollow point then shape the punch accordingly, as the lead flows up during point forming it will flow around the punch and form the shape you are after...


From what I understand it requires forming the base whereas the casing jacket method has that taken care of. Not a big deal. I will mostly use 9mm casings anyways.

that is how i understand it... a die is used to make a cone shape out of one end of the tubing, then another die flattens it out as the base, then it is drawn (sized down) or swaged (sized up) to whatever jacket size you are looking for... i like the idea of using brass as my dies are for making bullets during supply shortages, and because i am a cheap ***... so it is not beneath me to bend over and squat down to pick up free range brass and i am not a fan of spending $$$ on tubing, although i think it is a good option for sure...

welcome to this hobby of die making, i am sure you will figure out how to make some of these dies easier, faster, and cheaper :) be sure to share your progress and if you can post pics that is the best way to do it...

[Reload3006]

Duke tends to be a bit over the top in his support of BTsniper and his swage business. However in all fairness to Duke there has been a couple flash in the pans who have come on this site promising the world and stealing a lot of money form forum members Such as a guy named Colt. Unfortunately for GASwager who may be completely on the level and honest all that he by his own admission doesn't know how to make swage dies and he is already offering them for sale? This raises several red flags for me too. Colt almost had me biting on his scam too. I am glad I didnt as several swaging friends of mine did one even losing his own press.

[nhrifle]

GASwager, I'm interested in seeing the results you come up with for this project. When people tell you that you can't do something with a drill press, I say just go ahead and try. It will be more difficult than with an actual mill or lathe, but I do things at work all the time that my boss says won't work. Sometimes my ideas don't pan out, but they often do and then the boss huffs back into the office and leaves me alone. There's lots of ways to cut metal, so if you have an idea run with it. However it turns out you will learn something.

Folks here seem to jump on Duke for his support of BTSniper's products. In his defense, I have some of Brian's dies and Duke's enthusiasm for them is not unfounded. Yes I did wait for quite awhile to get them, but quality takes time (especially working solo and having a pile of orders come in) and they are nothing short of awesome.

Just my .02, which probably won't be worth .01 after the gubment prints its daily allotment of money.

[GASwager]

Yes. I have heard about Duke. Ive been lurking long enough to know that his arrogance and fanboyism for a certain die maker is palpable enough to be nauseating. I will just pretend he didn't post here.

I have clearly decided not to use the drill press. Too expensive, and would be a road less traveled. Plus, I have always wanted a lathe. Figured once I get this down pat (and figure out which pipe to use for this pipe dream!), I might could recoup some startup costs by selling a few dies. If demand is there I will make more. Nothing more or less is being implied.

No doubt BT has precision and quality on his side. He deserves and has earned my respect. But to say he is the only one who can achieve such quality is absurd to say the least. Where there is a will theres a way!

Only time and fair trading and honesty will prove my my trustworthiness. Such is life. Im no stranger to proving myself. I appreciate those supporting the idea.

Cane, you have been and hopefully will continue to be a huge help. I really appreciate it! I am off to work now. This weekend I will be making more progress and will no doubt have more questions! I will post as many details as possible throughout this journey! Cant wait to start feeding my Glock a steady diet of homemade jword boolits!





I

[BT Sniper]

Welcome to the site.

If I may offer a few words of advise, caution or wisdom if you wish to call it that....

You may have been lurking a long time but you still have very few posts here to establish your credibility and reputation. Already you are calling out long time members of the forum, "Duke". Is this the type of reputation you wish to establish in the first few posts here for yourself? I must admit it isn't the professional way of doing things no matter what Duke's actions.

You have some hurdles to get past on any new business venture offering swage die products here. Yes there is a great market and demand for quality tools and obviously the more interest and quality products available the better. It has already been mentioned in your thread here of previous attempts that sound very similar to your offer. Many got burned with loss of money and/or expensive swage presses. Scams like that have left a black eye on those of use that do offer quality swage die equipment and those that wish to venture into offering future swage die equipment. Customers are more carful to get into swaging with new purchases from unknown suppliers as well they should be.

Yes I was able to succeed in my venture and now stay very busy. It was a very long, difficult and expensive road. Yes it can be done. Yes I started out with limited knowledge or tooling but my Business did not start "exactly" like what you are attempting here. There are those here that may not be aware or may have forgotten that I had nearly 1,000 posts here and had already perfected making these bullets and improving already available CH-4d swage dies long before I ever offered anything at all for sale. When I offered my first improved CH-4d 40 cal one step swage dies customers already had a pretty good idea what to expect from my long list of previous success with the very same dies.

Anyone now days offering products on this site or any site should at a minimum atleast have a product to show and an established reputation with a few posts other then "Hi, I'm going to make a press and dies, who is in?" Even then we are not garenteed a quality product as history here has shown.

Colt with Edgedies took my advise, showed pics of the dies he had to offer, the bullets and targets he had supposedly shot with them yet proceeded to scam a lot of members here out of their money.

You have come in out of the blue to this great site the same as others before you, you may be an honest stand up guy, may be able to make a great bullet, press or set of dies, may be able to shoot a one hole group at 200 yrds but you should be aware of the history of such similar attempts here and be very carful not to repeat it. I have said it many times, anything is possible but starting off by dissing other members here on the site no matter their actions, character or who's dies they prefer certainly doesn't show much professionalism.

I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a die that will make a projectile you will have no problems shooting but to sell such a die to the public, it needs to be pretty darn good. It took me a long time to perfect what I felt was a die worthy of sale to the customers and remember I started out just offering improved CH dies. It was a couple years after that before I had a die of my own to offer.

Good luck on your endeavors, welcome to the site, there is a lot of good guys here with a lot of great info, treat them well and they will have a world of wealth to share. Make yourself comfortable and share a bit more of your experiences with us all.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[plus1hdcp]

Good advice from NH and BT. I look forward to following your progress and see how your dies turn out. My hope for you is yours is a successful venture and we all have another quality die maker. Keep your head held high and your standards higher. Please share both your successes and failures as we all learn from each other. And like NH, this is coming from a BT die owner but there are others on here who have Corbins, CH, and other dies including home made who most likely are interested in your progress. Good luck!

[DukeInFlorida]

BINGO! You hit it right on the head.
We have a younger crowd that always wants "it" NOW! They don't want to wait, and sometimes money is no object. And, guys like Colt are eager to take their money and their presses, etc. And, the minutes I see new guys show up, and say that they will start taking orders for dies made on drill presses, all the alarms start going off.

It's not that I am over zealous in supporting BT Sniper. It's that I waited, and watched from the sidelines... and saw this BT Sniper guy deliver good product. And, saw that he was honest, and stood by his product. And, that he's still here. He didn't deliver shoddy stuff, and sneak off into the dark night with anyone's money.

I don't have any Corbin stuff, but if I did, I would likely be supporting them also. Their reputation is also good.

My previous post wasn't intended to be a plug for anyone. It was intended to be a WARNING for one and all. Some of the guys here have been totally ripped off by fly-by-night wanna be tool makers, who didn't know what they were doing. So, Reload3006 has it dead nuts on the button: Be careful spending your money. Don't be the first ones to buy from an unknown entity. Let them PROVE they are worthy of your money before sending it off. Remember the lessons of the past, lest you are likely to repeat them.




Duke tends to be a bit over the top in his support of BTsniper and his swage business. However in all fairness to Duke there has been a couple flash in the pans who have come on this site promising the world and stealing a lot of money form forum members Such as a guy named Colt. Unfortunately for GASwager who may be completely on the level and honest all that he by his own admission doesn't know how to make swage dies and he is already offering them for sale? This raises several red flags for me too. Colt almost had me biting on his scam too. I am glad I didnt as several swaging friends of mine did one even losing his own press.

[Nickle]

Oh, I do have a fair amount of Corbin gear. So, I will talk about it.

Yes, the stuff is pretty good, and I've got pretty tall standards, as I look to make competition grade bullets.

But, Corbin is still slower than warmed over death. He's got tons of business, and an awful backlog. Your order gets finished when it's finished. I have seen one deliver less than a month, and it was 2 1/2-3 weeks. Backlog can go to a couple of years. I'll wager that's how long some of my back order will be, as it's very non-standard.

So, near everybody is back logged. Especially if they're well established and good.

So Duke is rightfully a bit testy about a lurker coming forward and promising a quality product in short order. Folks have been scammed in a like manner before, and I'm sure it will happen again.

You may be totally honest, just that we really don't have a way of knowing that, and a few previous crooks make folks cautious.

By the way, I've found it a good rule to keep my negative opinions to myself (and sometimes the person I think them about). It tends to make you not look like the bad guy, when the other party is a troll. Duke is testy about scams and people getting burnt, and he is a big fan of someone, but, he is not a troll. Not even close.

I'm bashing nobody, just pointing out a little proper internet etiquette.

[Randy C]

Has anybody seen GASwager or did this thread run him off. Like many before me it takes time to earn a reputation I'm still working on mine here, and in the local shooting community. A little proper internet etiquette goes a long way with people that know nothing about you. I was looking forward to seeing his work normally when you go there, You back your words up with the goods. I have put my foot in my mouth many times some in rage or with my ego the worst is when I do it and don't relies I did it until I look back or my wife tells me and stay of the keyboard if your having a few beers.

[GASwager]

Has anybody seen GASwager or did this thread run him off. Like many before me it takes time to earn a reputation I'm still working on mine here, and in the local shooting community. A little proper internet etiquette goes a long way with people that know nothing about you. I was looking forward to seeing his work normally when you go there, You back your words up with the goods. I have put my foot in my mouth many times some in rage or with my ego the worst is when I do it and don't relies I did it until I look back or my wife tells me and stay of the keyboard if your having a few beers.

I am still around and still working on the project. I am just very busy with work right now and that's keeping me from working on these dies as much as I'd like to.

It's just a situation where once I have a product that has been tested and "perfected", I will then have the pudding for the proof. Until then, I have taken the response here as constructive and will not be discussing it further until I have something to show.

[Randy C]

Glad to see you are here, I'm wanting to get into learning to use a mill and lath I have looked at some local. I might buy new I think the problem with buying new is the price you get what you pay for and there is no extras. They carry JET at ACME Tool here I think it is about 6000 dollars just for the machines they carry This is little ways down the road my neighbor has both.
Randy

[Cane_man]

+1 good to see you are still here GA and did't get bullied away