.30-30 the ultimate deer cartridge?

[samwithacolt]

So from what I'm learning on here, a cast .30 bullet can't be pushed much over 2200 fps, and higher case density is more accurate. By that rational, a .30-30 should be able to do anything a .30-06 can do with a cast bullet. Action style and sights aside, how is a bigger case more useful?
I'm trying some .308 gas checked 155gr boolits in my wife's .30-30 bolt action savage as soon as I get a chance. I want to load some for my .308, and it occurred to me that the maximum velocity is not a function of the cartridge, but the boolit. Thoughts?

[Jupiter7]

But bigger cases CAN provide room for larger charges, allowing for heavier boolits, at similar velocity. 30-30 and cast are enough for whitetails. But, more can be done with larger cases. Have you slugged that 30-30 barrel? What .308 gas checked bullets you using? I've had better luck with .309/.310 in my 336 and savage 340.

[samwithacolt]

I have not slugged the .30-30, I sized a lee TL 155 .312(mine drop closer to .310) to .309 with a gas check. They are loaded with a middle of the road load of H4895(can't remember exact load right now).
I hope to load the same boolit in my .308, but I see what you mean about going heavier with the same speed. That's why I am buying a .9.3x62!(but not for deer!)

[Larry Gibson]

Larger case capacity means slower burning powders can be used for a longer time pressure curve a mm d less pressure. Rate of twist and barrel length figure in it also. Given all with 24" barrels a 30-30 with a 12" twist is good. A .308W with the same 12" twist is better. A '06 with 12" twist will be even better. However, a .308W with a14" twist 26" barrel will even better. Wi it you can push 2600 fps with excellent accuracy with cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[310bsa]

My 30-30 hunting rifles are a Mod94 Win and a Mossberg which I think is an early manufacture copy of the Marlin complete with micro groove rifling. Both are used to cull feral goats which cause problems on the farm where I shoot. My favourite all round load is CBE 309-162FNGC cast in air cooled wheelweights in front of 22.5gns of Rel 7. Now I know that doesn't fill the case , but it holds under an inch at 100yds from the scoped Mossberg and the alloy is soft enough to expand. I think the reason it performs well in the Micro groove barrel even in softer alloy is that the bullet has a lot of bearing surface 78614. I know that's not very scientific , but it works ?

[jmort]

Talking about the "Ultimate" anything is subjective. I agree with post's 2 & 4.

[samwithacolt]

Cool, I'm not trying to start a 'favourite cartridge argument", I'm just trying to understand the difference in the .30 cals in relation to cast boolits. I'm learning already!

[runfiverun]

just try it, generally the 30-30 is easier to get up to 2400 fps.
usually a better boolit fit is needed to get there but the case shape of the old girl helps a lot.
if the mold you have doesn't work out for you look at something more suited towards the 30-30 rifle.

[303Guy]

I'm glad this question was asked. From my perusing and my idea of what a cast boolit cartridge should look like, I've formed the opinion that the 30-30 is an ideal cast boolit cartridge. So is the 30-40 Krag but I get the impression the 30-30 has about the optimum case capacity for cast. I like heavy for caliber boolits and the slowest powder for the job or that will fill the case. Most of the time I find the 303 Brit case too big and the neck too short (limits the boolit weight).

[310bsa]

Having used hard cast CB's in a 30-06 at 2200fps + I found the effect was similar to FMJ where the bullet could pass clean through and at times the animal showed no indication it was hit. I changed to sub 2000fps velocities with a soft FN CB and found that much more effective although it doesn't reach out as far.

[Digital Dan]

If more folks were schooled with the .30-30 there would be a lot more hunters afield and far fewer shooters.

[krag35]

If more folks were schooled with the .30-30 there would be a lot more hunters afield and far fewer shooters.

+1 :-)

[OnHoPr]

samwithacolt said: and it occurred to me that the maximum velocity is not a function of the cartridge, but the boolit. Thoughts?

It also depends on the intent or function of the boolit also. For higher speeds with lino and hardcast and pushing a 200gr + boolit for target the 30br, 308 are fine for bucking wind with the 30-06 case getting a bit large. But for a malleable hunting boolit to hit soft green ribs of a 150 lb animal the 30-30 is very apt in most cases for getting a 170 something class boolit (give or take 20 gr) to the 2200 fps range or there nears (give or take 150 fps). In some cases faster than jaxketed. Getting to know your alloys, BHN, and toughness is the key. But I am not sure if the 30-30 with cast or jaxketed really creates hydrostatic shock. But for general woods type hunting any of the woods calibers like the 303 savage, 30 rem, 30-30, 307 win, 308, 32 spec, 351 SL, 35 rem, 356 win, 358 win, 38-55, 375 win, 444 mar, and 45-70 should do well with a close to escalating type platform there. (maybe trying to grasp the teachings of crustyoldcoot there). So all that I mentioned had basically smaller than 30-06 volume capacity until the largest cals. Still large enough to put a decent dose of 4350 (or similar) in the case and get good velocity with cast without excess left over case space and be consider efficient.

[Hickory]

Talking about the "Ultimate" anything is subjective. I agree with post's 2 & 4.

You are quite correct, about the "Ultimate" anything is subjective.
The 30-30 may not be the ultimate gun for some, it is about all I can handle anymore.
Having had my neck operated on twice and both shoulders, the 30-30 is not the ultimate, just the maximum for me.

[**oneshot**]

I would not say "ultimate", but it sure was easy for a cast rifle rookie to make a fine cast shooting rifle.

[1Shirt]

I am inclined to agree with 303Guy that the 30-30 and or 30-40 Krag may just be the ultimate deer ctgs. They are both fairly small (meaning less powder requirements), rimmed, long necked, and will with proper cast loads get beyond the 2200 fps without a problem. Neck sized, brass has a decent case life (don't believe in full length sizing but every 5-6 loadings. I read someplace a number of years back that the average distance for whitetail kills was less than 60 yds, and while I have killed a couple of 2-3 times that distance, have killed a few at less than 60 yds. It doesn't matter what cal for deer if they are not hit properly, and a gut shot deer shot with a wizbang Weatherby ctg is still a gut shot deer.
1Shirt!

[Larry Gibson]

Case capacity is not really a good denominator for "ultimate".

Given equal barrel lengths and twists (20-26" & 10 - 12" twists) along with the same cast bullet (311041) and powder type (4895 for example) any other .30 cal artridge of equal or larger capacity will give the same level o accuracy and velocity with very little more powder. All are excellent and equal deer killers.

However if we consider case capacity for 100% load density capability then the 30-30 with a 12" twist 24" barrel pushing a softer cast 311041HP at close to 2300 fps becomes about the "ultimate" .30 cal deer killer in my opinion.

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Anything a .30-30 will do with cast, a larger caliber, such as a .35/.30-30 can do with a heavier cast bullet of larger diameter, which will give better game performance. I've shot maybe a dozen deer with cast loads in the .30-30 and while they "work," they are not quick killers and you will have to follow up even well hit animals.

Higher velocity, hollow-point cast bullets are quick killers, but bloodshot alot of meat. My preference for deer is for a cast bullet to be of .35 caliber or larger, with meplat not less than 1/2 of the bullet diameter, with bullet weight not less than 200 grains, of alloy no harder than 13 BHN, with a velocity not less than 1600 fps. The .35/.30-30, .35 Remington, .375 Winchester and .38-55 Winchester fill the bill nicely.

If shots on game where you hunt are likely to exceed 150 yards, increase your minimum threshold velocity to 1800 fps. If the game you intend to hunt weighs over 200 pounds, increase your minimum bullet weight to 250 grains. I have no academic justification for this, but can say that doing so agrees with successful hunting experience.

[youngda9]

A couple extra grains of powder is cheap.

[Digital Dan]

Getting to know your alloys, BHN, and toughness is the key. But I am not sure if the 30-30 with cast or jaxketed really creates hydrostatic shock.

Never believed any of that myself, but I made an armadillo explode one day with a paper patched .44 Mag. Parts, pieces, chunks etc, raining everywhere. Startling....

[303Guy]

Then again I've had one bullet and load disassemble a smaller critter yet do very little to a larger critter. It seems (I've heard it said) that if the temporary cavity is larger than the critter then disassembly will occur and that is what I have seemingly observed. That armadillo would appear to confirm that theory. It indicates hydro-shock. It takes a lot faster spitzer to duplicate the effect the 44 has. I've shot water containers with the 44 mag and yeah, it blows them! The big fat blunt nose is what does it.

I had something similar with a 22lr shooting soft red brick pieces. Above a certain size and there would be a smallish impact crater while below that size the piece would totally shatter.

The size of the 30 cal boolit does worry me, I tend to think of it as a small bore which needs a little nose expansion and a long, heavy boolit to do the job. No experience with cast in a 30/31 bore on game size critters. They work just fine on small critters. Like a 245gr wide hollow nose on turkey! Velocity was low enough not to disassemble them. Those were my intended pig boolits. Pigs are still waiting and the boolits have shrunk to 205gr.

[pls1911]

yes, I am partial to the 30-30, but if Ol' Ranger Dan can keep his bullets where they belong, it will do the job.


Like most any other caliber though the gutshot-buttshot hunter will go hungry

[725]

digital dan: My .54 BP T/C Scout pistol did the same thing. Stunning on how much force that slow round has. Now, back to our properly scheduled program: A semi-soft, flat nosed .30 at .30-30 speeds, well placed, will do the job. Just what I'm planning to use this year.

[nighthunter]

The 30-30 is the ultimate cartridge to some people. It is not the ultimate cartridge to some other people. When this subject comes up there usually are no winners and no losers. A person has to pick a cartridge that will get the job done when and where he hunts. I shoot some of the same cast bullets in my 30-30 that I also shoot in my 30-06. However the 30-06 will handle heavier bullets and different bullet designs that the 30-30 can not handle. Also, some of the alloys being used today allow much higher pressures and velocities with no detrimental effects. I myself just enjoy hunting and shooting different calibers and cartridges and I'm not in a position to clean out my gun safe except for the one ultimate cartridge I have. Sometimes my mood or just the direction the wind is blowing determine which firearm goes with me. They are all ultimate if they are capable of helping us get the job done in a humane manner. That's my $.02 worth on this subject.

Nighthunter

[Digital Dan]

Then again I've had one bullet and load disassemble a smaller critter yet do very little to a larger critter. It seems (I've heard it said) that if the temporary cavity is larger than the critter then disassembly will occur and that is what I have seemingly observed. That armadillo would appear to confirm that theory. It indicates hydro-shock. It takes a lot faster spitzer to duplicate the effect the 44 has. I've shot water containers with the 44 mag and yeah, it blows them! The big fat blunt nose is what does it.

I had something similar with a 22lr shooting soft red brick pieces. Above a certain size and there would be a smallish impact crater while below that size the piece would totally shatter.

The size of the 30 cal boolit does worry me, I tend to think of it as a small bore which needs a little nose expansion and a long, heavy boolit to do the job. No experience with cast in a 30/31 bore on game size critters. They work just fine on small critters. Like a 245gr wide hollow nose on turkey! Velocity was low enough not to disassemble them. Those were my intended pick boolits. Pigs are still waiting and the boolits have shrunk to 205gr.

You needn't worry about the CSA of a .30 cal bullet when it is backed up with a bit of weight. Nothing in N.A. will survive a properly placed .30 CB from a cartridge of reasonable capacity. After all, I've been whacking hogs for quite a while with .22 CB Shorts. Pop'n flop....

[357maximum]

For the Eastern Ultimate Deer Rifle (E.U.D.R) :lol: I would have to choose the 7TCU with cast 7mm Thors. It can be had in a TC carbine or you can wrench a barrel onto any 223 based bolt gun....and it has some "freak factor" that the 30-30 lacks. A 30-30 is to darn plain for some people. I have (4) 30-30's and they see very little use in the field, I guess that something that old and that reliable just gets BORING for some of us. :mrgreen:

[sergeant69]

For the Eastern Ultimate Deer Rifle (E.U.D.R) :lol: I would have to choose the 7TCU with cast 7mm Thors. It can be had in a TC carbine or you can wrench a barrel onto any 223 based bolt gun....and it has some "freak factor" that the 30-30 lacks. A 30-30 is to darn plain for some people. I have (4) 30-30's and they see very little use in the field, I guess that something that old and that reliable just gets BORING for some of us. :mrgreen:

I complained to an old (er) timer one day at work a few years ago that I was bored w/the job. he said "yea, but are you stressed out"? I said no. he said "good, if ur not stressed you'll live longer". so sometimes boring ain't too bad. I hunt whitetails w/a 1921 94 w/soft cast FPGC. I may be boring em to death, but they stay dead just the same. that being said, I have a 7 mag I tricked out w/a timney trigger, a huge *** scope, bipod, glass bedded custom stock, etc etc that keeps crying out to bust a whitetail. decisions decisions.

[rosst]

maybe its not the one but its certainly heading in the right direction . . . with its long neck, moderate capacity combined with the great rifles its chambered in its close enough for me for what i want, at this stage anyway. recently bought a Marlin 336, with a long receiver to back site scout mount i will try out hunting with a 1X pistol scope on top first, maybe a peep or rifle scope later, the versatility i like very much.
35 caliber would be better i expect . . . but theyre pritty thin on the ground around my way, in a traditional leveraction anyway.
everyone should own at least one or more leveractions, so .30-30 is a natural for that reason alone . .. . cheers

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I would have to say the 30-30 is one fine cartridge. It can be mastered by any hunter I have ever known. But the group of old Michigan deer hunters I grew up around favored the 38-55. None of them ever said anything bad about the 30-30 but they all said better things about the 38-55.
I have never popped a corn cruncher with 30-30. I do know whenever they are hit correctly by a 30-30 they are history.
I have popped whitetails with caliber 38's. I do know when they are properly hit with a 255 grainer cast of 50-50 chugging along at 1600 fps and faster those bean eaters do not go very far. Exit holes are always large and working well. Shoulders get shattered and everything between gets ripped snorted.
In the end I could not say one hole producer is any better than another. I do know some people do not like the recoil of caliber 38 rifles. So it is a blessing to know there is another fine caliber there waiting to lessen my possibility of having to buy a car front end whenever we are up north there.
Mike in Peru

[jhalcott]

I think the neck of the .308 case limits bullet weights a lot. The .30-30 IS a great cast bullet round which I have used in a 14" Contender to take deer at over 100 yards. I've also used the 35 Rem to do this. Lyman's 47th edition has some wimpy load data, and I will not give out MINE. I have tried for high velocity in the .308 and 30-06 for grins. After achieving 2600 +fps in these calibers I tested them for penetration in wetpack. I got it, but there was little in the way of expansion of the bullets. I dropped back to the 2000 fps or less loads depending on accuracy and haven't been sorry!

[quilbilly]

Hunting deer with a muzzleloader for all these years taught me a lot about was is required for the job especially having used 45 PRB for our local black tails. If you use a soft lead projectile with a gas check which expands nicely to over 45, 1800 fps is more than adequate out to 125 yards and even beyond. Your trusty 30-30 will be a lot more fun to shoot for longer periods too if you aren't beating yourself up with high velocity's recoil and vibration.

[John Allen]

It is funny with all the new cartridges out there I still prefer the oldies but goodies. The 30/30 is great cartridge for cast. I have used the RCBC 160 grain flat nose gas check and it worked great. I have more success with the softer lead in my Marlin.

[youngda9]

358 Winchester is the ultimate.

[smkummer]

When I was a teenager in N.Dak. (mid 1970's), it was more of a "poor" man's gun/cartridge because the deer gun up there was a scoped bolt action. This was when about $100 bought a new Win. 94 and then $4 for 20 cartridges at K-Mart. It worked for deer except for the long shots (3-400 yards) of which were fairly common, so up there it kind of got a bad reputation compared to 30-06, 270, 7mm mag. and even 243. Every deer that either I shot or others with factory 30-30 ammo and was hit, expired. And sometimes it was a drop dead hit such as mine as under 100 yard range. I have yet to shoot one with a cast boolit though.

[303Guy]

I would lean toward the 358 Win too. But I like a rimmed cartridge, maybe even a straight walled cartridge. I'm planning on building a 40/303 some day.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

IMHO the 30/30 is fine for deer if you do your part first when loading....If I want something heavier than 170 gr ...I use my 45/70 w/ 405 gr boolit... just my 2cents worth.....each to his own....be happy we have so many choices:redneck::bigsmyl2:

[Lead Fred]

Most of my hunting buds have switched from thier 30 cal bolt guns, down to a 30-30 with FTX running about 2300fps.
This is a bit loud for Mrs Fred whom is used to a 7.62x39.
So using my Ranch Dog 170gr mold, I lowered the powder so it delivers 1600fps out the muzzle. She has not shot he commie gun since.
Using Randy Garretts info about how slower boolits do better damage than faster ones in 45/70s, I used the same thought for the 30-30.
Works like a charm.

FYI the 1895 GG (45/70) is the ultimate, nuttin in north america has a chance

[youngda9]

I would lean toward the 358 Win too. But I like a rimmed cartridge, maybe even a straight walled cartridge. I'm planning on building a 40/303 some day.
Please explain the preference for a rimmed cartridge. I don't understand why having a rim or not really matters. Is it because it headspaces from the rim instead of the shoulder or something like that? please explain.

[waksupi]

I'm just the opposite. I have found some rimmed chamberings to be a problem in cycling. .45-70 in a bolt action comes to mind immediately.

[Digital Dan]

Speaking in general terms both rimmed and rimless cases have their advantages, what one uses is a personal choice IMO. A lot of rimmed cases herald from a time when lead bullets were king and thus were designed so. Straight walls or long necked bottleneck ruled. They were also appropriate to many actions common to the era such as the Sharps, Highwalls etc.

None of that says you can't be successful with rimless cases, but the metrics and approach to success might be different. I've shot lead in both types of cases and my limited experience indicates rimmed cases are easier to deal with. Might be the long necks, might be the lower pressures.

YMMV

[303Guy]

For me it's just the nostalgia factor. That and my preference for the Lee Enfield and desire for a single shot. I use the shoulder for head-spacing anyway but the rim does make fire-forming easy (and fire-forming takes place with most 303's).

[taco650]

I like the 303 British myself and have a ball shooting my #1 Mk3. And it feeds rimmed rounds just fine. Just wish I could the headspace fixed but that's another discussion.

Reading through the comments comparing the 30-30 to 308 & 30-06, I got inspired to make the same comparison for the 35 Rem, 358 Win and 35 Whelen. After reading through my old Lyman 45th edition manual, the velocities achieved with cb's is within 100-150 fps between the three. The only difference seems to be that the longer case allow either use of a heavier slug or lower pressure. I'll also confess that Lyman didn't list the 35 Whelen but they did have data for its ballistic twin, the .350 Rem Mag.

[GabbyM]

If you like a M94 lever gun with cast boolits you can't overlook the 32 Win Special.
Counter argument would be that it's almost the same round.

I have a 30-30 Win 94 AE that I just love. But to get right down to the grit of things a bolt gun in 30 caliber is more gun all around. For deer hunting in woods my Win 94 would probably be the first rifle out of the rack. Since I can shoot it unsupported off hand out to 100 yards better than my heavy scope sighted bolt guns. Due to the light weight and iron sights. Could do as well with a light weight bolt gun with irons in any other suitable caliber.

[samwithacolt]

I have a .32 ws 94, shot a deer with it last year(with J bullets). As I walked away from the truck at dawn with my backpack and binos,
I could'nt believe how nice the iron sighted 94 was to carry. I may have to spend the money for a NOE mold, as Lee molds seem to be permanently out of stock everywhere.

[Redhorse702]

lotsa my buddies in North Florida use a 30-30.. I am quite crippled and cannot walk too far or wade thru much of the THICK scrub and brush and thick swamp stuff we have.. so I opted for a Marlin 336c in 35 Remington. I am happy to say that with a 375 158 gr XTP, a 200 gr Hornady RN and a big fat 357 158 gr gas checked pellet... I do not walk as far as my buds.. my shots are limited to 74 yds or less.. I have Skinner peep sights on the Marlin and I am a "Well, we don;t have to look for that one, boys" kind of shooter.. the fall down boom! I favor the 357 gas check.. found me a load of H-4198 that is devastating.. and the bullets are HARD.. if yo hit the shoulder plate.. they fall down!!! My 2cents

[LeftyDon]

Got my own form of the 30-30, my inherited Remington Model14 in 30 Remington. Copies the 30-30 in load data and the Model 14 pump is slick as all heck.

[Ramjet-SS]

Oh boy I am so stoked just got my 4-cavity brass 170 grain FP GC Accurate mold today. The Henry will be shooting the bulls eye out next week

[Lead Fred]

We treat the 30 WCF (We own a 1949 Winnie) Like a baby 45/70.
Using the same style Ranch Dog mold. I load the 30-WCf & 45/70 no faster than 1600fps. For maximum meat penetration.
The 30 WCf & 30-30 were originally lead boolits to begin with.

[samwithacolt]

I love how easy it is to size and load. I have my wife's Savage bolt .30-30,my 94 .32 ws and my .38-55.
All based off that rimmed long necked beauty. I think a 219 or NEF .30-30 is needed soon!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Not Much Left out there you can't kill with a 30/30.... but if you can't shoot.... A 458 won't fix a poor shoot....IMHO