30-30 Reduced Loads - Poor Man's 357 Lever-Action?

[handyman163]

With the scarcity of 357 lever guns, and that they demand a rather high price compared to the market-saturated 30-30 lever-action rifles, I'm trying to reproduce the price and fun of a 357 lever-action for target shooting with my Winchester 94 30-30. It's still more expensive to shoot than 357 mag due to the availability of lead rifle boolits (bought cast lead since I don't cast currently), but using pistol powders and cast boolits brings the cost down to around 16 cents per shot from 36 cents using rifle powders and jacketed bullets or even 80 cents per shot with factory ammo. Still, 16 cents vs 36 cents is a big decrease, but it's not as nice as 11 cents/shot with 357 mag - though it's close.

I've got a Williams FP sight on my Win 94, and that's definitely required due to the difference in point of aim and point of impact for 30-30 loads ~2000-2300 fps vs ~1400fps loads with 9gr Unique. I've tried 150gr and 165gr lead boolits, and when compared to factory 150gr loads, I'm seeing a 2" drop at 50 yds, 4" drop at 75 yds and 11" drop at 100 yds (reduced loads shoot lower). I'm able to set the sight to the reduced load impact, but I'd like for there to be less difference in POI if possible.

It's still beyond me that even at 20 yards, there is ~1" difference between the factory loads and the 1400fps reloads with 165gr boolits. I'm wondering if it's just velocity difference or if the recoil difference is coming into play bringing the higher-powered loads even higher than I would expect (or the almost non-existant recoil of the reduced power loads letting them impact even lower than expected).

I'm still in the market for a 357 mag lever-action - likely a Rossi if I can hold one and inspect, but I had the 30-30 and really only target shoot these days (no need for it to be dedicated to hunting). What do you all think about this? Would a lighter bullet get my effective range extended so that they're not dropping almost a foot at 100 yds at the same load? Would a 130grn boolit instead of the 165gr I'm using now with the same 9gr Unique loading get the POI up, or is that even worth trying? I suppose I could just adjust the sights even higher to make it shoot high at 50 yds, but this seems like a real rainbow trajectory with the 9gr Unique/165 grn boolit load.

I really wish I had a range in my backyard to test all the variables!

[handyman163]

I had limited it to 1400fps due to it being a plain-base bullet, but also to use pistol powders to keep costs down. I'm reloading 357 for 11 cents/shot and these 30-30 reduced loads are 16 cents (neither are counting brass in the cost).

In looking at a 357 mag trajectory, it seems that with a 75yd zero, it would shoot 1.5" high at 50yd. I may be able to raise the sights to make these reloads hit 1.5" high at 50 yds and be much better off than I am now with it sighted a little low at 50yds.

[Gray Fox]

You might want to see if you could find some boolits for the .32-20. Depending upon your bore diameter you might be able to use them as is or size them slightly smaller.

[Baja_Traveler]

You might want to see if you could find some boolits for the .32-20. Depending upon your bore diameter you might be able to use them as is or size them slightly smaller.

Yep - the Lyman 311008 (intended for the 32-20) is a perfect boolit for light 30-30 use. My silhouette chicken load is the 115gr 311008 over 8 grains of Unique. Virtually no recoil in a 28" Buffalo Bill commemorative. Up the Unique to 10 grains and it will drop the steel pigs @ 100 yards with no problem at all, making it closer to a 357 load...

[smkummer]

10.4 grs Unique, Lyman 311291 (170 gr. rd nose) with gas check sized .311. 1500 FPS and accurate as all heck. I have not tried removing the gas check yet. The bore is spotless and the water dropped ww alloy is perfect. The lyman 311041 works well also but is not as smooth feeding in my pre-64 94 30-30 as the rd nose 311291. The gas check adds 2.2 cents and I thought about finding some aluminum checks.

[leadman]

Have you searched for a lighter gc'd boolit? I have 3 molds that are around 120grs. Should flatten the trajectory and since they are gc'd velocity is not a pressing issue.
Contact me if you are interested by pm.

[Ed_Shot]

I recommend the Lee 309-113-F. I get excellent results with a Marlin 336 and my H&R will hold MOA at 100 yds with it. My favorite 30-30 load with the Lee 113 is 16.0 gr. Alliant 2400 sized .310 w/WL 2500+ lube and a Freechex gc. The Lee soupcan shoots great in 30-06 and .308 also.

[detox]

Here is my 30-30 load: Linotype alloy with RCBS 150gr Cowboy boolit sized .310, lubed with SPG, 8gr of Trail Boss powder, Winchester LP primers. About 1000fps.

30-30 brass is more expensive than once fired 38 special brass...i hate picking up brass. Franklins in Athens, GA has two brand new Winchester .357 lever action rifles (both are different models) about $1200.00 each.

[dbosman]

For anyone who wants to try a light plain base boolit, Midway has this mold in stock for $19.99.
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 311-93-1R 32-20 WCF, 32 S&W Long, 32 Colt (311 Diameter) 93 Grain 1 Ogive Radius

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/453779/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-311-93-1r-32-20-wcf-32-s-and-w-long-32-colt-311-diameter-93-grain-1-ogive-radius

[uscra112]

Red Dot if you've got it or can get it. Promo is a good substitute for Red Dot, so the story goes. I have not had any need to buy any, since my "Dot" supplies are adequate for the next millennium or so. My cheap .30-30 load used 118 grain store boughten "hard cast bevel base" .32-20 boolits. and 6.5 grains of Red Dot. That's 1000 shots per pound of powder, with some left over. Accuracy from a Marlin 336 carbine was 100% hits on a pop can at about 30 yards.

All 1400 fps loads will have rainbow trajectories. I'd just leave the sights set as for your hunting load, then find out what range the plinking load zeroes at with that sight setting. That's what the old-timers did, (or said they did).

[olafhardt]

OK , at 16 cents for 30/30 and 11 cents for 357 that is 5 cents a round difference. I expect that a decent 357 will cost $400 or you might trade your 94 + at least $100 boot for a Rossl. This means you will have shoot 80, 000 rounds to buy the Rossi or 20, 000 to pay for the trade. If you need a new toy go for it but economics is not a good reason. I personally have not been able to find a cartridge that approaches being as good for a carbine as a 30/30..YMMV

[castalott]

Howdy....Great minds think alike ,I guess. I have both 30-30 and 357 rifle. I justified purchase of the 357 Marlin because brass was cheaper and I could load on a Dillon. I like the 357-it's fun and accurate. The 30-30 outclasses it for all my uses though.

My advice ( It is worth what you are paying for it which is nothing...Grin) is to get a Lyman steel peep sight with the instant adjustment ( the slide with the button ) and have at it with your 30-30. Two or three different sight settings are not hard. Light weight boolits can be had to save lead. And if you ever need to step up in horsepower, just add the right load.

I won't sell my 357...But if I had to choose between the 2- the 30-30 gets to stay.

Lever guns are addicting, aren't they? As I think about it, life is short. Buy your 357 and enjoy it. 38 loads are cheaper and still as much fun....

[quilbilly]

Last winter I tried my 113 gr Lee 309 boolits in my 30/30 with Trail Boss (not weighed but about an 85% load) and they shot wonderfully out at 50 yards. The Mv was 1200 as I recall and the group was about 3" offhand which is pretty good for me and my eyes. Felt about like a 22LR. Those boolits did have a gas check since I use them in my T/C 32-20 at a higher velocity.

[detox]

Velocities above 1500fps are uncomfortable for plinking. Especially when using my heavier 150gr Cowboy boolits. I like to keep velocity under 1200fps.

[TXGunNut]

From a practicality point of view a 92 in 357 won't do anything a 94 in 30-30 won't do. OTOH pistol caliber carbines have been around since the levergun was invented so they must be good for something. ;-)

[starmac]

30/30 is the poormans 357, hmmmm I own several 30/30s and have never even had a hankering for a long gun in 357. I must be the poorest of the poor. lol

[TXGunNut]

30/30 is the poormans 357, hmmmm I own several 30/30s and have never even had a hankering for a long gun in 357. I must be the poorest of the poor. lol

I dunno, had a hankering for one for awhile. There's something about a 92 in .357 that tugs at my pursestrings. Only way I can justify it is to come up with a use for all this .38 brass around here but that's a silly reason to buy a rifle. Maybe once I get a mould I'll be able to talk myself into it. :wink:

[Nickle]

30/30 is the poormans 357, hmmmm I own several 30/30s and have never even had a hankering for a long gun in 357. I must be the poorest of the poor. lol

Me too. Got 9 or 10 30-30s, but not a single 357 at this time, handgun or long arm. Might be fun to shoot in a rifle, but frankly, I just don't see a good use for it. Kind of light for deer here, besides, I've got a 44 Mag Marlin, should I choose to go that route. Rebuilding a 788 Remington in 44 too.

[handyman163]

For some clarification, I'm a target shooter and not a hunter, though I am no stranger to hunting. I try to shoot weekly or every couple of weeks, so I shoot more volume than most hunters would and mostly ringing steel at distances under 75 yards. Reloading 30-30 (processing the brass through lubing and resizing, then crimping separately after loading) is far more cumbersome for me on a single-stage press than reloading a straight-walled pistol caliber like 357. Loading non GC bullets in 30-30 puts it in close competition with a non GC bullet 357 as far as power, but the cost of reloading without casting is cheapest for the 357 - bullets are ~$35 per 500 for 357 but ~$28 per 250 for 30-30. Price matters more to me when shooting in volume. Having a rifle and pistol in the same caliber is also pretty appealing, and I'd rather a 357 mag pistol than a 44 mag.

The way I reload 30-30:
1. Tumble the brass
2. Deprime and resize
3. Wipe or tumble brass again to clean off case lube
4. Prime on press and expand mouth
5. Drop powder from measure into cases arranged in a loading block
6. Seat bullets
7. Crimp

357 mag is simpler:
1. deprime and resize
2. Prime on press and expand
3. drop powder in a block
4. seat bullets and crimp (together)

I looked at the ballistics table at Handloads.com, and that suggests that what I'm seeing with POI for my reloads is consistent, and that I just need to raise the POI to zero at 75 yds in order to shoot pretty flat out to 100 yds. The difference in sight setting on the Williams FP peep sight for the reduced loads (~1400 fps) vs the higher-powered loads (~2000 fps) is something like 80-100 clicks (the setting for the rear sight is about 1/4" higher than the setting for full-house loads). I've got to dial that in to be able to switch between them, and then just set it to what I'll shoot that day.

Thanks for all of the ideas.

[Baja_Traveler]

If you want an excuse to get a 357 levergun, start shooting levergun silhouette matches. Pistol cartridge silhouette requires a pistol cartridge, so I got a Rossi 92 in 357, and it is rapidly becoming my favorite gun. I'm just now starting to work up a heavy boolit load using an NOE 180gr and Lilgun. The huge meplat on that boolit is just screaming "Pig Gun" to me...

[fecmech]

The way I reload 30-30:
1. Tumble the brass
2. Deprime and resize
3. Wipe or tumble brass again to clean off case lube
4. Prime on press and expand mouth
5. Drop powder from measure into cases arranged in a loading block
6. Seat bullets
7. Crimp

Simply buy the Lee collet neck sizer for your 30-30 and treat it like a pistol cartridge. With .357 level loads and fast powders there is no need to resize the case. I shoot 9 grs of Herco for 1350 FPS with a plain base 31141 and have loaded the same case with no sizing 5-6 times now. I load them on a turret press.
1. Decap and neck size (turn turret) (no lube)
2. Expand neck (m die) and reprime on down stroke (turn turret)
3. Dump powder (from powder measure on turret) (turn turret)
4. Seat and crimp bullet, remove loaded round and turn turret to neck size die and repeat.

[hworff]

Just starting to reload 30-30 w/ my RCBS Piggy Back 4 (Also have Dillon 550B). The RCBS gives me 5 stations, so #4 is seat w/o crimp. #5 is Lee Factory Crimp. I'm using Xtreme Bullets 150 gr RNFP Copper Plated. I'm going to try 7 gr Unique. I had a problem with 45 ACP 230 gr Copper Plated w/ Seat & Crimp die. It was shaving a small ring of copper that would stick in the chamber of my Kimber Command II 1911 causing the round not to seat fully - no fire - so I used separate dies. Any advice/suggestions on 30-30 Winchester 1894 cast no GC/copper plated & powder. I have two '94's, 1894 Octagon circa 1906(Grandfather's) good condition & a 94 WCF War Era (circa 1944 - 1948) great condition that I refit w/ a crescent stock. Thanks, Herb

[armprairie]

I had the yearn for a 357 or 44 lever action also. I made the mistake of shooting a 357 Marlin at one of our club fun shoots, a real blast shooting steel plates. But then I later tried the 357's of my friends on paper to see how accurate they really were. I shot the Winchester 94, the Marlin, the Rossi, and even the new Miroku-made Winchester 92. I shot Trapper models and carbine length. The common thing I found is that they make great plinking guns. You can get a lot of cartridges in that tube. But they're not that great for accuracy. The 44's are terrible because the twist rates are really poor. In fact my friends would love to get the accuracy at 25 yards that I get with my old Marlin Texan micro-groove at 100 yards with the 30-30.
I'm using the 311466 150 grain bullet gas checked BHN about 15 that I cast myself. I have started using 20 grains of Reloder 7 and haven't run that through the chrono yet. But I can get 1 inch or less groups or less on the hundred yard range at Effingham, IL. Not every time of course, after all I'm only using a Weaver K3.
The satisfaction is immensely greater than what I get shooting the same group with my Remington 700 22-250 with 20 power scope. In fact I'm a little peeved that for so many years I was told by so many gun writers that the 30-30 was only capable of fair accuracy, and so I snubbed my nose at it for years, and just now gained an appreciation of it in my retirement years. Only because I decided to make a poor man's 357 out of a 30-30 with cast bullets. I don't feel poor any more.

[handyman163]

armprarie,

You're making me think twice about the 357 now, and that's really what I needed was a good reason to re-think. A pistol/rifle caliber combo is still something I want, but it really wouldn't help in any practical way since I don't carry, ride, or otherwise need to consolidate ammo while in the field. I have shot a buddy's 357 Win Trapper 94AE, and liked it (though I'd like a 20" barrel better) and was hooked to that idea of pistol and rifle in same caliber. Then I found this 1970 Win 94 with perfect unscratched wood but had some nicked bluing, no rust at a local Gander Mtn store for $250 that I just had to pick up. I really had no use for a 30-30 caliber at the time, but this thing needed some love. But I shoot at places where I can't get 100 yards away from my steel gong, and closer than that with full-house 30-30 loads will ruin the steel for handgun shooting up close, so I need to load it down.

My accuracy at 100yds with my closer-to-full-house reloads is under 3" groups without trying too hard, so this thing is definitely as accurate as I need it - especially since it isn't scoped. I shot a 1.5" group once, but it was 10.5 inches high since the sight was set for the reduced loads. The reduced loads seem accurate enough for my work, but I'm having a hard time understanding the extreme difference in impact at all distances between the 2 loads, but I'm making it pull double-duty and I have no experience with that until now.

I'll test some more (part of the fun, right?), and probably hold off my search (and recent obsession) for a 357 levergun and focus on making this old 30WCF more versatile rather than having to spend $$ on another gun. I can apply those savings to more reloading/shooting.

[mj2evans]

Baja,
Do you know if the 180gr bullet will chamber in the Rossi 357 when crimped in crimp groove? Just worried about the bullet shape. I like the looks of bullet for my 686 and have thought about a lever gun in 357 and want to share ammo.

What is the thought on GC in carbine? Needed? I would like to avoid GC, I don't go nuts on my pistol loads and would like to share bullets between revolver and carbine.

30/30 plinker with PB 30M1 120g bullet has been a lot of fun and CHEAP with 4-6g Unique. I don't "need" a 357 carbine but it sure sounds fun.

[armprairie]

Well if you decide to hold off, that's fine, but don't forget that buying a gun is like taking five twenty dollar bills to the bank and getting a hundred dollar bill. You can always get the five twenties back. Sometimes if your careful you'll get six or seven. My first solution to the yearning for the 357 lever gun arose when I walked into my local dealer's and there was an 1894 CL Marlin in 32-20 like new for $450 2 years ago. I walked it up to the front counter and plopped the money down. Shot like a dream. Do I still have it today? No. Sold it for enough to buy 2 or 3 others.
As much as I love my 30-30's, I know I'm going to end up with a 357 lever gun. I like the 1892 Winchester lever action the best, much slicker than the 1894, so that means in practical terms I will probably buy a Rossi, unless I find an old Winchester conversion. One friend of mine has a $15,000 trap gun (one of those poor farmers) just to show what kind of guns he can afford. He bought a Rossi at a local auction we were both at. He had 2000 rounds of Fiocchi +P+ 38 special and wanted something to shoot it up with. He brought it to the range at Windsor, IL and when I saw him start shooting at the 25 yard line, it was something akin to when a little kid gets turned loose on a bicycle the first time. Water bottles were flying in all directions, clay pigeons were being ground to fine chips. He was having a ball. Well that's his tractor gun now, he leaves the scoped AR's at home. He's a great wing shooter, and that Rossi will probably serve him better in the few seconds he has to pop a coyote. Around his farm they have a terrible plague with them, they've killed almost every dog he's had as well as the neighbors' dogs, even trained coyote killers. He can't find them in the scope fast enough.
Now if that is the kind of shooting your wanting to do, fast shooting at water bottles, clay pigeons and the like, get a 357. We might as well admit we've drunk the Kool-aid, some just fight it longer than others. It's just a matter of time.
My buddy liked his Rossi so much he went back an bought a mare's leg, but boy do they shoot high!
From a fellow victim.

[nanuk]

I admit I am biased against levers, but have recently acquired a couple levers. But if you want REAL fast 357 action, get a pump like a timberwolf or lightning! Fast and Furious!

[Lonegun1894]

I would disagree with the statement about the .357 and other pistol caliber leverguns being inaccurate. I have them in .357 and .45 Colt, and all are just as accurate as my .30-30s out to 150yds with all of them (both the pistol calibers and the .30-30s, which all wear iron sights) giving me 2-3" groups @100. Now the pistol caliber boolits having a lower BC shows up quickly with more drop starting around the 125-150yd mark, depending on caliber, while the .30-30s seem to maintain theirs very well out to about 200-225yds at least. So yes, the .30-30 does have a definite advantage past 150yds, but inside that, or with low velocity plinking loads, you can save yourself the slight cost of the very slightly more powder that the .30-30 uses to do the same thing as the .357s (due to the smaller case capacity of the .357), or the cost of the GC (I make my own for both so not much difference in cost to me), or the cost of the lube to lube the case during resizing (although if we're splitting hairs down this far, we have worse issues to worry about). For full power loads, the .357 is slightly cheaper for me ( I use 14.0grs of 2400 and a 158gr for the .357 and 28-30grs of 3031 for the .30-30 depending on if I'm using 150gr or 170gr boolits for the .30-30 for full power loads), but plinking stuff is close enough on powder and lead that it really doesn't make enough difference to worry about. Now where it does make a huge difference, although I'm not sure I can recommend buying one over the other just based on this, is that my Rossi's in .357 and .45 Colt are lighter in weight than either my Winchester or my Marlin in .30-30 so if you plan on doing a lot of walking with these rifles, the 1892 design makes for a lighter rifle that I appreciate after 10+ miles, although I honestly love shooting them all at the range and all shoot equally well. So I wouldn't buy a .357 just for the cost savings on ammo as it will take A LOT of shooting to even get close to breaking even. But if it is a weight thing, or you just want one, then I would say go for it. I think they're great, but just don't lie to yourself and buy one for the ammo cost savings because you will get frustrated long before you see any of that. Only way I can see that happening, and even this is somewhat iffy, is if you did not reload and had to choose between either buying full power .30-30 or .357 and whatever .38 Spl happened to be cheapest at the time, and assuming prices after this panic settle down to something more reasonable than the current price-gouging going on in many places. Since you load your own, well, while I think you would be happy having both, either will really do anything that needs doing either against paper, coyotes, deer, or most hogs, if you keep your shots inside 100-125yds, and maybe further out depending on your skill and comfort level once you get comfortable with the capabilities of each and get to know the limitations so you're not having to wonder like we all do anytime we get a new toy.