first ladder test for .243

[grampa243]

this is my first ladder test with the .243 win. shooting the RCBS 243-95-SP lubed with ''ben's red''

using IMR-4198 test from 16.2gr to 22.5 gr in .9gr increases. 2 rounds each. At 100 yards.

gun was sighted for 100 yard with my deer load. so this test was more for getting the same POA then anything.

the 18.9 and 19.8 look good for mor testing :)
784897856178562

[sthwestvictoria]

I would have said it was 20.7 and 19.something. With a ladder test isn't what you are looking for the shots with the smallest vertical dispersion, not necessarily the closest to the bullseye?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK, someone please explain to me what is meant by a "ladder test".

From what I see on the target which is posted, I see no way to get any real meaningful info from what I see.

Just the normal dispersion of the shots within any group - speaking typical rifles here - would give enough variation to cloud the picture.

If a group had been shot with each and every different powder charge, then the center of each group would maybe provide a relationship of one group to another as the powder charge is increased.

I have "worked up" loads since the 60s, and have only recently seen references to the, "ladder TEST" so someone pLease help the ol'guy out here.

What do your mean and what is the reason?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[grampa243]

OK, someone please explain to me what is meant by a "ladder test".

What do your mean and what is the reason?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

ok.. there are a few reasons to ladder test.

#1 is to find the powder charge with the smallest vertical dispersion. which would be shot in groups of 3 at the longest range you plan to shoot.
here is a good article about it. http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

#2 is to find and match POA (point of aim) for a known load and/or range.
(this is what i was mainly working on this time.)

#3 to check for signs of high pressure in the loading range for the given powder. or to find the speed that you get boolit failure.
( my test didn't show any sign of ether.)

[grampa243]

I would have said it was 20.7 and 19.something. With a ladder test isn't what you are looking for the shots with the smallest vertical dispersion, not necessarily the closest to the bullseye?
i uploaded better pictures today.. hope it makes it clearer to see.

i would say the best vertical dispersion was 16.2; 18.9; 21.6. (but i had forgot my sandbag for the butt stock so it's not my best shooting anyway.)

i was mainly trying to find the load that would shoot the same place as my hunting load at 100 yards. i will be loading ten more for group testing.

i was also looking for signs of leading at the higher end. alloy and lube seam to be good.

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for posting the link about "Ladder Testing." I found it quite interesting and while I follow a more traditional route for my long range match loads (CMP and NRA Hi-Power) I found it well worth consideration in the future.

That's some rifle the author is shooting. While bench rest is not my cup of tea, any rifle that shoots .2 MOA at 1,000 yards is worth bragging about.

Keep us posted on that .243 and your cast bullets.

[GabbyM]

I found I can shoot just as fast with my 243 AI using Unique powder as RL7 rifle powder. Using a 1:10" twist barrel my accuracy falls of much past 2,000 fps. Unique builds enough pressure to seal the case and burns shinny clean. 11.0 grains under Lyman's 84gr Loverin. Shoots just under an inch at 100 yards all day. 2400 is popular in the 243 also and I'll give it a try someday.
My best load with RL7 was 18.0 grains under a Saeco 87 grain for 2,040 fps and 1 inch at 100 yards. cases and action get blackened from lack of case seal in chamber and the bore is left dirty. Half grain up or down and groups shot gunned. E.S over Chrony goes up with charges under 18.0 grains and velocity is to high for accuracy over 18.0 grains. Narrow window is not confidence building.

Your heavier bullet should help a bit with the rifle powder and 4198 is probably a little easier to get burning.

[grampa243]

tested 19 gains at 100 yards today.

10 rounds from cold to hot in 4 min. the lower ones to the left where cold start..
the hot ones grouped a little tighter. might bring the load up a little and shoot it slower. :)

78929

[grampa243]

before i check; size and lube the next batch i'm going to weight them. all the boolits i shot so far were done before i got an electronic scale.

[Love Life]

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-reloading/44763-hand-loading-long-range-4-powderin.html

A very good read on ladder testing correctly.

[kbstenberg]

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot you beat me to the punch. I have tried finding out what a ladder test is. An now I know

[Love Life]

The ladder test is awesome. I do my 1st ladder at 300 yds (after I get my 100 yd zero with the starting charge) going up in powder charge in 10% increments. I'll find the node, or nodes, and then work it/them at 500 yds in .3 gr increments. After the 2nd ladder I will work the node at 600 yds in .1 gr increments. That gets me where I need to be 99% of the time.

Velocity is not always king. A very useful method for finding THE load as long as your brass is match prepped (or not). From there I can play with things like seating depth and primers.

Fun Fun.

[Muddydogs]

First off I am not trying to be a jerk just pointing out what I see. I don't see any meaningful data on the target except a bunch of holes. You shot 2 rounds for each powder weight but no 2 rounds are within 1/2" of each other and most appear from the pictures to be over 1" apart. From your post showing the dirty bird target, that is not a 100 yard group at all and shows that the load has little merit.

Two things to look at are the shooter and the bullet. Yes defiantly weight the bullets and check to make sure they are getting sized to the size you think they are. Do the bullets fit your barrel? Are you seating them to deep?
What rifle are you using? Scope or iron sights at 100 yards?

[grampa243]

the gun is a T/C encore with prohunter 28 inch barrel. and the scope is a 3-9x40 leapold.

with jwords it will shoot sub-MOA

as for the drty bird target after the barrel was hot the boolits fired grouped at 1.5 inches
the one in the red was shot by holding off(kentucky windage)

i'll admite it is still a work in the making.

[Larry Gibson]

Grandpa243

That 10 shot group is exactly why the ladder test is a waste of time and components, especially with cast bullets. There are too many other factors at play with cast bullets as far as accuracy goes. Far better to use the old tried and true method of working up an accurate load. Use 5 - 10 shot groups (10 being best) at 100 yards. Start low and work up. The group size will tell you what the accuracy load is. With the ladder you will most likely chase your tail........

Larry Gibson

[grampa243]

as for the drty bird target after the barrel was hot the boolits fired grouped at 1.5 inches
the one in the red was shot by holding off(kentucky windage)


79944

[grampa243]

Grandpa243

That 10 shot group is exactly why the ladder test is a waste of time and components, especially with cast bullets. There are too many other factors at play with cast bullets as far as accuracy goes. Far better to use the old tried and true method of working up an accurate load. Use 5 - 10 shot groups (10 being best) at 100 yards. Start low and work up. The group size will tell you what the accuracy load is. With the ladder you will most likely chase your tail........

Larry Gibson

i'm sorry but i don't see it that way. check out post #4 reason #2..

the ten shot group showed me i have to watch the temp of the barrel on this gun.

all this was done before my new scale came so the boolits are not weight matched; which might be playing a part in the grouping..

[Muddydogs]

What Larry was getting at is you did the ladder test, picked what looked good and then shot a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards, most of us would not be happy with a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards with your rifle scope combo. Another reason for not using the ladder test is your ladder test results, nothing is close even 2 of the same powder charges are not close to the same POI, the load you choose to shot again has a 2 shot spread of 2 inches as I'm guessing your aim dots are 2 inch dots? If you would have shot 5 or 10 round groups you can rule out the occasional flyer or other weird shot that might fall outside of the main group and this would have still shown you that the barrel has a heat issue. With the ladder test a couple of off shots due to the shooter or the load can give you totally wrong data.

You don't need to shoot 10 rounds for every powder weight. If you are wanting a good velocity load then start out at the book minimum and load 2 or 3 rounds just as pressure checking rounds, as you get to where you want to be in the load data then start loading 5 rounds of each powder weight. I like to shoot 5 shot groups. If I don't plan on going over a certain charge weight which is below book max I will still load up 3 rounds at certain intervals until I get to the book max in case the rifle doesn't perform with the other loads I can check hotter ones and I like to know when I start seeing pressure signs so I can make sure my load is not right on the edge to begin with.

[grampa243]

Muddydogs and Larry,

i think you guys have missed the point.

#2 is to find and match POA (point of aim) for a known load and/or range.
(this is what i was mainly working on this time.)

#3 to check for signs of high pressure in the loading range for the given powder. or to find the speed that you get boolit failure.
( my test didn't show any sign of ether.)

i also shot this ladder from cold to hot without giving the barrel time to cool.. (stopped at the range on the way home from work didn't have a lot of time..)

also as this is the first gun/boolit/caliber that i'm even trying to shoot past 50 yards.. [i only shoot my 45-70 off hand and have not grouped it pass 50 yards.] i think a 1.5 inch group is a good start.. not the End of the Road.

[btroj]

The sole purpose of the original ladder test was to find a load where small charge variations lead to little, if any, vertical on the target. I doubt it is of any se at ranges sort of 600 yards, certainly no use below 300.

With cast there are so many variables that a ladder test is of very little use in my opinion. Lube issues, casting issues, and load issues all can cause vertical. How do you ever know what the real issue is?

Shoot 5 or 10 shot groups and you will learn as much, or more.

[Muddydogs]

Muddydogs and Larry,

i think you guys have missed the point.

#2 is to find and match POA (point of aim) for a known load and/or range.
(this is what i was mainly working on this time.)

#3 to check for signs of high pressure in the loading range for the given powder. or to find the speed that you get boolit failure.
( my test didn't show any sign of ether.)

i also shot this ladder from cold to hot without giving the barrel time to cool.. (stopped at the range on the way home from work didn't have a lot of time..)

also as this is the first gun/boolit/caliber that i'm even trying to shoot past 50 yards.. [i only shoot my 45-70 off hand and have not grouped it pass 50 yards.] i think a 1.5 inch group is a good start.. not the End of the Road.

No I don't think we did. I just did what you were trying to do the other weekend. I wanted to get some cast 30/30 loads to shoot at the same POI as my hunting loads at 50 yards. I loaded up 5 rounds of each powder group, shot 3 of the first group, which shot low, checking for pressure signs. Shot 3 of the next group which were low again but pressures still looked good. Shot 3 of the next group which where close to POI I wanted so I shot the last 2, group was 1.5 to 2 inches. Shot all 5 of the next group which gave me the POI I wanted, pressure looked good and grouped under an inch at 50 yards with iron sights. I had 2 more groups above the last one but after shooting the next load a couple times it printed higher then I wanted so I tried the last powder group to check for pressure signs which there was none. Since I was happy with my results I turned my attention to the 100 yard steel plate and shot the left over ammo.

What I accomplished in 30 rounds was a load that shot to a POI I wanted, no pressure signs and a good group plus some extra plinking at the 100 yard steel. I have since shot this load at 100 yards and it is right in there with my hunting load, groups are ok for shooting 100 yards with factory Win 94 sights.

[Larry Gibson]

Don't think I missed the point either. If your rifle is zeroed for your hunting load what part of the very large 10 shot group matched the zero? One or two shots may have come close but that was after the barrel warmed up? Not trying to hard a$$ you, just trying to help. The size of that group and the load used tells me very quickly the velocity is too high for any kind of accuracy.....for me anyway. The point is if you wat accuracy you will probably find what most all of us have found; the odds of finding an accurate cast bullet load that will hit to the same POI as a jacketed top end load in a high velocity cartridge like the .243 at 100 yards are slim to none with slim being gone.........most of us have gotten used to the idea of sight corrections or using hold over/off. Just trying to help......

Larry Gibson

[grampa243]

thanks for explaining your points more in depth. i thought you were telling me i was wasting my time.

i'm going to try a slow fire cold barrel group. as that is what the gun will be asked to do most of the time anyway.

i may have to change my zero but i would like to get close as possible.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Glad I'm not the only one not seeing a lot of point or good with the "ladder test".

However, even though I see little reason to do such a thing, and agree with Larry, it is to each his own and it is sure nice to be able to do such things if it rings our bell/floats our boat.

Be safe and enjoy this great past time!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot