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KYShooter73
08-06-2013, 05:15 PM
Electrostatic spray method only. No comparisons with other methods please. I know the reading is daunting on the main threads, so I wanted to give a little bit back of what I have learned from others and a very small portion of my own experimentation. I am sure improvements can be made. The following is the electrostatic method I have learned:

Equipment needed:

Safety equipment
Casting pot, mold, sizing equipment
Powder coating gun and compressor
Air nozzle
Powder
Acetone or other no residue solvent
Nitrile gloves
400f Oven (toaster oven or better)
Oven tray or jig

I begin with a Lee .356-125 hollow point mold by Erik at hollowpointmolds.com. I am using COWW adding 2% Tin solder, water dropped. These boolits are then sized to .356 using a Lee push through die using no lube. If lubrication becomes an issue, I use my standard case sizing lube, 8 parts 91% isopropyl alcohol to 2 parts Lee resizing lubricant.

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After sizing, I put the boolits into sealed container with acetone.

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I strain the boolits through sieve to remove the excess acetone. The excess acetone is then poured back into the sealed container for reuse. While in the strainer I blast the boolits with some compressed air to dry out the acetone.

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I have designed a jig using machine screws, 2 washers, a lock washer, and a nut. These are set in the baking pan that came with my second hand toaster oven. If you are not using a hollow point design, you can sit the boolits base down on any non-flammable conductive surface that will fit your particular oven.

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I then glove up and sit the boolits on top of the screws. it is easier than it sounds. I am doing 68 at a time, but this could easily be ramped up. The whole purpose of using the acetone is cleaning all oils from the boolit, so don't touch them with your fingers. Many people set them on flat trays covered in non stick Reynolds wrap.

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Here is the finished tray.

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I preheat these for about 5 minutes to get my boolits up to coating temperature and evaporate any lingering acetone.

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Using my air nozzle, I clean off any dust from my spraying area.

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I then transfer about one inch of powder into the reservoir of my Chicago Electric (Harbor Freight) powder coat gun.

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There is a 4x4 sheet of plastic drop cloth over my coating area. I place the tray of hot boolits on a riser above the plastic to prevent melting and make for easy cleanup. The ground clip is then connected to bare metal on the boolit tray.

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Continued in next post.....

KYShooter73
08-06-2013, 05:30 PM
While holding down the pedal control, I spray a generous coat of powder over the boolits .

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Time to cook at 400f, or as directed by your powder coat supplier.

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I normally set a 25 minute timer, but I was taking pictures and didn't set the timer. After 10 minutes I'm starting to get good flow and adhesion from the powder coat. Nice and wet/gloss looking.

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Hard to tell from the pic, but boolits are mostly dry and no longer glossy. Time to come out of the oven.

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Removed from jig. You can water drop again at this point to counteract the annealing from baking.

78472

Now, if you would like you can resize again, gas check, or load and shoot. A nice coat of powder will add about .002 to boolit diameter.

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Clean your equipment with the air nozzle. It is super easy, just blow the powder off your gun. You can salvage the overspray on the plastic and reuse for the next batch.

78474

Right here I would let the boolit age for a week or so to finish curing and hardening.

78475


Load with a generous bell to prevent scraping off your powder coat.

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Crimp if you would like, but I get better accuracy by just closing the bell with no crimp.

Feel free to test some with a hammer. Beat it flat and very little coating will be lost.

That is my process. Your mileage may vary. Hope I helped some people out.

smokey496
08-06-2013, 05:52 PM
Good job!!!

bangerjim
08-06-2013, 06:24 PM
I recently switched to Reynolds "Non-Stick" aluminum foil. OMG!!!!!! No sticking at all. I can reuse the same foil at least 5 times for the same cal. Just make sure you have a good electrical contact to the boolit.

Yes, it costs a bunch more than the cheap crapola sold at Walmart, but there is absolutely NO sticking. I just rake the slugs off the pan into my collection pan. Any "flash" on the base comes off in the sizing process. Then just reload the oven pan again and spray away. Saves time, money and frustration in the long run!!!!


bangerjim

xacex
08-06-2013, 07:02 PM
Great write up!

I would like to mention that acetone may not be necessary for freshly cast boolits. Also, be cautious about the acetone in the oven. I did have a flash from it before I stopped using it, and it blew the door off of my toaster oven. I would recommend letting the acetone air dry before placing boolits in the oven for pre-heating. Tip size you use, and PSI to set the P/C gun at in the write-up would be helpful. I use the medium tip, and set my regulator to 25PSI when the trigger is not being pulled.

KYShooter73
08-06-2013, 07:16 PM
I usually hit them with some compressed air before I put them on the rack. Forgot to put that in, I'll go back and add that. I use about 25-30 psi, but have not experimented with the different tips.

w0fms
08-06-2013, 08:28 PM
Be careful if you are not running a convection oven with the black coating! I left mine set at what worked great with electrostatic Yellow coated 45-230gr with my 38-158 and 9mm/358-125s and melted the boogers because of the increase in infrared heating. I like the screw tray. I made several trays out of hardware cloth and I'm not convinced they do not damage the boolits... But coating them ball down is the way to go to get an even coat on the lube grooves...

destrux
08-10-2013, 09:53 AM
Excellent write up. This should be a sticky.

I'd like to add that even with the fresh cast bullets the solvent wash is a good idea. I noticed I get some blemishes around the base when coating fresh cast bullets. I think it's from some sprue plate lube being on the base.

jmort
08-10-2013, 11:14 AM
Excellent graphics and info. I am convinced that electrostatic powder coat is the best method, and for sure will get the best looking results. Your set-up using screws and HP boolits is really smart. In the end it is the performance that matters. It would be nice to know what results you get at the range. Also, why not just size after the PC application? Finally, it is sacrilegious to put Black PC over Lee Precision Red.

KYShooter73
08-10-2013, 02:13 PM
Finally, it is sacrilegious to put Black PC over Lee Precision Red.

I got that little loader when I was 17. I'll be 40 next month. Works just as good as the day I bought it. If I had a good way to get all the paint off, I would powder coat it back red.

MacFan
08-16-2013, 12:46 PM
Too easy. Wife is out of town for 3 days visiting daughter and family. Picked up a Harbor Freight gun this morning. Put RN 45acp bullets on a cookie sheet over 1/4-20 nuts and aluminum foil. Preheated kitchen oven to 400F, powdered bullets out in garage at 15psi with red HF powder. Balanced cookie sheet 50 feet back to the house avoiding Gabby's pitbull piles (I'm supposed to be cleaning up), up the back stairs and in the oven for 20 minutes. Results are gorgeous on the first try. I'll load 'em up over the weekend and go shooting next weekend. Below is a pic of a couple from the first batch of 10.

Sorry I didn't use more abbreviations, I usually can't figure out half the stuff you guys are writing about. ;-)
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jmort
08-16-2013, 01:10 PM
"Results are gorgeous on the first try."

Yes indeed. Nothing is better than the electrostatic powder coat. You make it seem easy. I'm still stuck on trying to make Klass Kote work.

MacFan
08-16-2013, 01:24 PM
Preheated kitchen oven to 400F DO NOT USE HER OVEN FOR COOKING BOOLITS OR COATING. It outgasses toxic fumes and will discolor and contaminate the oven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoa, it's just a test popper, relax. There aren't enough toxic fumes to hurt anyone. I've got a bit of polymeric chemistry education behind me. Now the over-spray on her cookie sheet could get me killed.

Just a side note, my wife is pretty accustomed to me. Many years ago ('74) I was baking the wrinkle paint finish on to a Harley engine case half. Wet paint+gas stove=door blown off hinges. Yup, she's beautiful and still married to me. Ask her about me passivating stainless steel scooter parts in the kitchen around the same year as the oven door mishap.

KYShooter73
08-16-2013, 09:37 PM
Very nice MacFan. I've not done red yet. Going to get some gloss black from powder by the pound next time.

L1A1Rocker
08-27-2013, 08:33 PM
Looks good. I'm very tempted to try this.

fastglock
08-27-2013, 09:08 PM
Anybody uses the screen with 30 cal boolits? Just wondering how you keep it standing while getting it to the oven.

Ausglock
08-27-2013, 11:11 PM
When you are coating the bullets on the tray, how much of the powder falls onto the tray?
Can you reclaim this powder before you bake the tray with the bullets, or does the overspray on the tray get baked as well?
Great post and great photos..

Echd
08-27-2013, 11:52 PM
Here's a question probably covered in the megathread that probably doesn't merit its own, but which I can't find-

What do you do with throwbacks, or damaged bullets you coated?

Safe to toss back in the pot, coated?

Throw away in the trash?

bangerjim
08-28-2013, 12:04 AM
Just throw 'em in the pot. The PC ends up in little black balls on the surface you skim out. Avoid the smoke, as it is probably not good for you!

bangerjim

bangerjim
08-28-2013, 12:06 AM
Anybody uses the screen with 30 cal boolits? Just wondering how you keep it standing while getting it to the oven.


I did a post in the megathread on how to coat 30 cal GC's easily.

If you cannot find it, let me know and I will post it here again.

bangerjim

KYShooter73
08-28-2013, 12:17 PM
I just throw any bad ones back in the pot and re melt. I don't know of any good way to reclaim the powder that winds up on the tray.

Dedley Accurate
08-28-2013, 04:30 PM
The powder on the tray is such an insignificant amount, reclaiming would be pointless. My question to the OP: what has your experience with the Harbor Freight/Chicago powder coating gun? Is it worth the money?

500MAG
08-28-2013, 04:39 PM
Great thread. Thanks

bangerjim
08-28-2013, 07:43 PM
The powder on the tray is such an insignificant amount, reclaiming would be pointless. My question to the OP: what has your experience with the Harbor Freight/Chicago powder coating gun? Is it worth the money?

Are beautiful, perfectly coated, easy-to-coat with 1 coat, hard as nails, leading-free, no lube mess boolits worth $59 - 20%?

HECK YES!

bangerjim

500MAG
08-28-2013, 08:35 PM
Just ordered the Powder coating Gun System from Harbor Freight and I used a coupon code I found and it saved me 25% the code is 65149244

Dedley Accurate
08-28-2013, 09:01 PM
Are beautiful, perfectly coated, easy-to-coat with 1 coat, hard as nails, leading-free, no lube mess boolits worth $59 - 20%?

HECK YES!

bangerjim

Well I guess I know what to add to my birthday Wish list for Oct 18!

KYShooter73
08-28-2013, 09:53 PM
I've used it for 3 months without a problem. I'm sure the high end guns are better, but for this purpose the HF gun works just fine. I did put too much pressure to the gun and popped the little gadget that keeps water out of the air. I also attached one of the little pressure regulators to the gun itself. It's easier to adjust than the brass knob on the gun.

bangerjim
08-29-2013, 01:01 AM
I've used it for 3 months without a problem. I'm sure the high end guns are better, but for this purpose the HF gun works just fine. I did put too much pressure to the gun and popped the little gadget that keeps water out of the air. I also attached one of the little pressure regulators to the gun itself. It's easier to adjust than the brass knob on the gun.

HF sells a little REAL pressure regulator (not just a flow regulator) with a gauge for around $6. Works great for this gun.

bangerjim

NTD
08-29-2013, 12:25 PM
The uncoated base won't cause a problem if you lay round nose bullets flat on a pan?

bangerjim
08-29-2013, 02:39 PM
The uncoated base won't cause a problem if you lay round nose bullets flat on a pan?

Not quite sure what your are asking, but uncoated bases are NOT a problem if you are sub-sonic. All standard lead alloy boolits using conventional lube methods are ALL bare bottom....sides...ends....nose....everthing. If you are pushing high velocites, then you need to GC your coated slugs just as you would with any standard lubed lead.

But laying a previously baked slug on it's side and baking again will not re-liquify the coating.

Let me know if that answers your question.

bangerjim

NTD
08-29-2013, 02:41 PM
It does answer my question, and makes sense. If I had thought it through before clicking reply I would have realized that. Thanks.

fastglock
08-29-2013, 02:56 PM
bangerjim , you beat me to it.

I have an IPSC race gun that I used to shoot jacketed with exposed lead core base that would lead my muzzle brake pretty bad

mo_bio
08-31-2013, 05:52 PM
Can't wait to try this. Going to HF next week. Thanks for the good "how to"

rlb
08-31-2013, 11:30 PM
Ok, so I got the Eastwood Hotcoat setup. The two guns I was having trouble with are a 454 with Mcgowen barrel and a Dan Wesson 357. Worked great in the 357, but failed in the 454. The last 3" or so of the 454 starts building lead within as few as 5 shots. The alloy is water dropped clip on wheel weights. Load is 300 gr Lee flatnose with 30.5 gr of H110 pushing it. Cured the powder at 425 for 20 min. Is there something I am doing wrong? If I missed something please let me know.

Thanks.

bstone5
08-31-2013, 11:55 PM
Lead in a barrel usually means the gas is passing the bullet as it travels down the barrel.

Try a bullet about .002 " bigger in diameter, or install a gas check, if it is a plan or bevel base a cola
can thickness .004" might work.

A gas check wold be the best solution.

rlb
09-01-2013, 12:16 AM
Sorry, I missed that. They are checked. I do get little rings of PC in the cylinder right at the start of the throat also. This kinda tells me that it might be pealing off in the throat also. I am already sizing to .452" to get them through the throats. Maybe too much preassure spike and obturation in the case? These loads do feel much snappier than with regular lubed bullets. Keep the suggestions and theories coming. I would like to get the 454 shooting these things with all of the investment.

KYShooter73
09-01-2013, 01:23 AM
Take a couple of your boolits and pound them with a hammer and see if the powder coat flakes off. It should crack some as the lead flattens and stretches, but very little should come off. I have just a suspicion that over cooking can make the powder coat more brittle, and reduce adhesion. If you get flaking, try dropping your bake temp a little. Nobody is an expert at this stuff yet. What kind of powder are you using?

rlb
09-01-2013, 01:31 AM
I'm using the Eastwood powder. I might just try that. It does seem kinda brittle when I am popping them off of the foil.

waksupi
09-01-2013, 01:34 AM
Ya know, I am going to advise you guys to patent these methods, before some major manufacturer snatches them. Think about it. They could save millions in production cost if they can eliminate jackets in manufacturing.

Russel Nash
09-01-2013, 03:47 AM
Ya know, I am going to advise you guys to patent these methods, before some major manufacturer snatches them. Think about it. They could save millions in production cost if they can eliminate jackets in manufacturing.

That's why I was talking about "fluidized beds" in the huge powder coating megathread. The fisherman are making their crappie jigs one at a time at home with fluidized beds made out of PVC fittings.

The only other videos I could find were of huge machines meant to powder coat fencing. The one medium size application was for the grill around an oscillating fan. The grill was put into something that looked like the freezer case for the drumsticks, klondike bars, and frozen snickers you see down at the quickee mart.

My conundrum is how do you go from fluidized bed apllication process to the baking it on stage without some metal conveyor leaving marks in the finished powder coat.

Also in that megathread somebody posted pics of Federal Nyclad ammo. So somebody at Federal had figured out how to apply the "nylon" in bulk without leaving marks.

rlb
09-01-2013, 09:04 PM
Take a couple of your boolits and pound them with a hammer and see if the powder coat flakes off. It should crack some as the lead flattens and stretches, but very little should come off. I have just a suspicion that over cooking can make the powder coat more brittle, and reduce adhesion. If you get flaking, try dropping your bake temp a little. Nobody is an expert at this stuff yet. What kind of powder are you using?

Smashed a couple. Nothing flaked off. I'm still going to drop the temp back to 400* though. Just to see what happens. I might drop some right in the water from the oven and see if that helps a little.

KYShooter73
09-03-2013, 02:54 AM
Hmmm, I don't know if hardening/quenching would help or hurt. Seems like a harder boolit would make the boolit harder to compress into the grooves, and make the coating come off easier. But then again, rifle casters use some hard alloys. I don't know, you are plowing new ground my friend, keep us posted.

Maximumbob54
09-03-2013, 12:14 PM
Is anyone getting decent rifle accuracy from their coated either powder coat or epoxy? I've not been able to get anything close to acceptable in a group powder coated or epoxy.

bangerjim
09-03-2013, 12:41 PM
Ya know, I am going to advise you guys to patent these methods, before some major manufacturer snatches them. Think about it. They could save millions in production cost if they can eliminate jackets in manufacturing.

It's been done before by major manufacturers and they dropped it. It is now in the hand of us plinkers!

And the military is going with "green" ammo anyway to eliminate that dangerous lead from contaminating our enemy's lands! Solid copper bullits? No spead or kill power.

Environmentalists.............can't live with 'em.........and they run too fast to hit 'em!

bangerjim

Russel Nash
09-03-2013, 01:57 PM
Is anyone getting decent rifle accuracy from their coated either powder coat or epoxy? I've not been able to get anything close to acceptable in a group powder coated or epoxy.

I'd be curious what your definition is of "acceptable accuracy". I still haven't bought a rifle mould yet, so I am just kinda talking out of my rear end. :-)

My guess is that if you get the powder coat uneven, it's like having a tire out of balance on your car, or clothes washing machine with an unbalanced load....That bullet is trying to spin...to gyroscopically stabilize, but instead it is going THUMP! THUMP! THUMP! THUMP!

So it isn't very aerodynamic with that nose wobbling all over the place.

But like I said, I don't have any rifle moulds yet, and actually haven't even loaded up and shot any of my powder coated boolits yet. So I'd gladly defer to folks who have more hands on experience.

xacex
09-03-2013, 03:36 PM
Is anyone getting decent rifle accuracy from their coated either powder coat or epoxy? I've not been able to get anything close to acceptable in a group powder coated or epoxy.

Depends on what you consider good rifle accuracy. In comparison to a standard cast and lubed boolit, or jacketed? Generally I get better accuracy out of cast in my 300 Blackout with traditional lube, so I was curious as well. In my comparison last week I tried a 125 Sierra prohunter bullet, against my powder coated 125 grain hollowpoint 311410 boolit, and the same mold with a few grains more with the shallow H/P pin. The 125 cast did as well as jacketed, and the 128's with the shorter H/P did better. Now this was with a starting load, and slightly less than Hodgdens starting load was for a 125 grain bullet, so there is a ton of wiggle room for improvement. Without a doubt with this load, and the same boolit in my 54R I can get the accuracy of a non-premium jacketed bullet, and most likely better. If I were to bet on it I would say you could, with a lot of work, get accuracy of a premium jacketed bullet. But, to be honest how accurate do you need your boolit to be? I can hit 4 inch clays at 100 yards right now with my starting load with boring accuracy, and knock the centers out in most cases. Can I make it better, you bet! Do I need to? Well, in 300 Blackout, or a 13 grain load of red dot in the 54R I am as accurate as I need to be out to 200 yards for any game I might want to take. That is about the effective max distance to kill small to coyote size game with this boolit anyway. Try it, and compare for yourself. If it doesn't work for you what have you lost? An hour of your life enjoying something that is fun, and challenging?

Mike Hughes
09-03-2013, 06:49 PM
The 125 cast did as well as jacketed, and the 128's with the shorter H/P did better.

This is music to my ears. What powder? I have Lil Gun, H110, and 4227. After looking at Hodgdens data, looks like 16 gr would be a good starting point with all 3 of these powders. I have that same 311410 mold and just picked up a PC gun at Harbor Freight. Coated some during the weekend and hope to get some loaded and tested this week. The coating seems to be very durable.
8095780958

KYShooter73
09-03-2013, 09:21 PM
Very pretty Mike. I want a blackout barrel, dies and molds so bad I can taste it. What mold is that?

Mike Hughes
09-03-2013, 10:28 PM
Very pretty Mike. I want a blackout barrel, dies and molds so bad I can taste it. What mold is that?

311410 It is a Mihec mold from a recent group buy. These are with the shallow HP pins, with the gas check they weigh 129 gr. Miha may have some more of them, he usually makes a few extra.

rlb
09-03-2013, 10:44 PM
I still get a little lead at the end of the barrel, 2" or so, but it doesn't seem to be effecting the accuracy as bad. Dropped the temp back to 400* and dropped them in water right out of the oven. I'm going to try to do some for my 44 and see how they work since I push it just as hard. I'm waiting on a new handle for my 4500 before I can do anything else.

el34
09-03-2013, 10:58 PM
Sunday I went to HF and got the PC gun and the red, white, and yellow-orange powders. Monday I tried it out. I had planned to cook them in my bbq grill but saw that it might blow up. I used a Rival electric frying pan with lid I got at WM for making Recluse lube, its thermostat goes to 400 but it only made it to 350. Maybe that's hot enough, don't know, so I successfully fooled it by placing a small fan pointed right at the thermostat and it got up to 400 and stayed there.

Gotta say, it was a pita but it was my first go. The first shot, about 20 boolits, were all sitting on regular aluminum foil. They were very hard to pull off and most wound up with unintended aluminum bases. I took advice from 2 earlier posters and used non-stick foil and sat the next batch on hex nuts. Much better.

80985 80984

rlb
09-04-2013, 12:00 AM
Only one way to find out now. Down the barrel they go! Look good.

xacex
09-04-2013, 12:35 AM
This is music to my ears. What powder? I have Lil Gun, H110, and 4227. After looking at Hodgdens data, looks like 16 gr would be a good starting point with all 3 of these powders. I have that same 311410 mold and just picked up a PC gun at Harbor Freight. Coated some during the weekend and hope to get some loaded and tested this week. The coating seems to be very durable.
8095780958

I started with 17.2 grains H110, CCI 450 mag primer, loaded to 1.905" OAL. That was LC converted brass, not factory. The alloy was straight air cooled w/w. Gas checks were hornady, and I sized to .310. Today I loaded the same but .311, and also bumped the powder to 17.7 to see where I am at with the 125's. I think I got a better burn with the 128's or short pins so loading a little more powder may help. I will find out tomorrow.

It is an awesome boolit for a great caliber! Great job on the jig, and the coating! I think you will like the results. Jugs pop great with this one.

Russel Nash
09-04-2013, 01:01 AM
The red color makes 'em go faster (wink, wink)

Mike Hughes
09-04-2013, 07:58 AM
I started with 17.2 grains H110, CCI 450 mag primer, loaded to 1.905" OAL. That was LC converted brass, not factory. The alloy was straight air cooled w/w. Gas checks were hornady, and I sized to .310. Today I loaded the same but .311, and also bumped the powder to 17.7 to see where I am at with the 125's. I think I got a better burn with the 128's or short pins so loading a little more powder may help. I will find out tomorrow.

It is an awesome boolit for a great caliber! Great job on the jig, and the coating! I think you will like the results. Jugs pop great with this one.

Thanks xacex for the load details. I think I will try the 1.905 OAL and start with 17 gr and go up from there. I will probably focus more on the Lil Gun, I stocked up on it to feed the hungry Beowulf.
My jig is just a quickie that I put together for testing. Just screwed a piece of roof flashing to a scrap piece of OSB wall board and shot about 50 2" finish nails through the back side. Spent about 5 minutes putting it together.
I made another jig, using a piece of 16 gauge steel plate and tacked some larger nails (6 rows of 12=72) to it with my wire welder. It took a little more time, maybe 30 or 40 minutes. I used this one for 44's
810178101381016

rlb
09-04-2013, 07:38 PM
Has anybody noticed a considerable difference in toughness between the HF powders and other brands? I use the Eastwood powder because I got it in the kit, but wonder if it is going to withstand the pressures of the 454.

Thanks.

xacex
09-05-2013, 12:08 AM
Another day, another try. My best wasn't with me today. tried the increase of powder, and it did not make a difference. All groups were horrible with the Blackout. Best I could do today was 6 inches at 100 yards. Still good enough for clays at 100 yards, but the targets I was using just had dots so I was not able to use the lines to get the target acquisition I am used to. The Beowulf did better than that today. On a better note, I was able to keep it good with the G30 with PC Mihec 200 grain 45 acp. I actually hit a clay out at 50 yards with it, and almost all were on a plate out to that distance. I had a few strange flyers that were way off. Like 3 feet!:shock:

Maximumbob54
09-05-2013, 09:56 AM
Another day, another try. My best wasn't with me today. tried the increase of powder, and it did not make a difference. All groups were horrible with the Blackout. Best I could do today was 6 inches at 100 yards. Still good enough for clays at 100 yards, but the targets I was using just had dots so I was not able to use the lines to get the target acquisition I am used to. The Beowulf did better than that today. On a better note, I was able to keep it good with the G30 with PC Mihec 200 grain 45 acp. I actually hit a clay out at 50 yards with it, and almost all were on a plate out to that distance. I had a few strange flyers that were way off. Like 3 feet!:shock:

You are getting far better results with your rifle ammo than I have so far. But as for your pistol ammo, the next time you are out and you see a three foot crazy off taget stop and pull the barrel and check for heavy leading. I bet you just had a coating fail on either the very last or next to last and then the next good one is cleaning the lead out the bore for you correcting the problem. Are you using a stock Glock barrel? Maybe the polygonal rifling is letting the coating slide through instead of gripping it enough. Just thinking.

xacex
09-05-2013, 12:40 PM
You are getting far better results with your rifle ammo than I have so far. But as for your pistol ammo, the next time you are out and you see a three foot crazy off taget stop and pull the barrel and check for heavy leading. I bet you just had a coating fail on either the very last or next to last and then the next good one is cleaning the lead out the bore for you correcting the problem. Are you using a stock Glock barrel? Maybe the polygonal rifling is letting the coating slide through instead of gripping it enough. Just thinking.

It is a stock Glock barrel. This time out I gave it a fresh cleaning so I could tell if there was coating failure. I will pull it today and see if there is an issue that I was not having with the 1911 vs polygonal in the Glock. The 1911 did the same thing I noticed.


few strange flyers Had a few of those also, just thought it was failed (shaved) coating or a base problem but they all seemed to just go to the right about 6" @ 50. Only thing I can figure is a rough spot in the bore collecting junk till it gets purged. I have to WD from the oven for rifle loads to get any accuracy. The cooking just makes them like pure.

Funny you mention it, but all of my flyers were up, and to the right, or just to the right. I haven't water dropped yet, but I may give that a shot. I know these hollow points open real nice with this soft, annealed lead. On paper these look great at 21 feet with one flyer opening the group every 5 rounds, but at 50 yards the problem is very apparent. My thought is that it is a base that is not perfect from the sprue cut, or there is a void. I don't use a PID or anything to keep my pot consistent, so I assumed that the annealing would even out any of the faults from casting temperature. Apparently not. I hate the idea of having to inspect, and weight each one again after PC, but I may need to to catch this.

xacex
09-05-2013, 02:27 PM
Just cleaned my barrel. It was just burnt powder except for a small amount of PC residue at the throat in the lower left corner. The rest of the barrel was perfect. This is with the H/F flat black. I bet if I just did a mild tumble after PC with a tiny amount of JPW it wouldn't be there.

bangerjim
09-05-2013, 05:09 PM
Just cleaned my barrel. It was just burnt powder except for a small amount of PC residue at the throat in the lower left corner. The rest of the barrel was perfect. This is with the H/F flat black. I bet if I just did a mild tumble after PC with a tiny amount of JPW it wouldn't be there.


I believe you will be the first one to use JPW on PC's slugs. I have thought about it but not sure what the reaction would be in the coating. Soften/dissolve over a period of time?

Please .......let us all know your results!!!!!! That little bit of lube may be the trick.

bangerjim

xacex
09-05-2013, 07:16 PM
I believe you will be the first one to use JPW on PC's slugs. I have thought about it but not sure what the reaction would be in the coating. Soften/dissolve over a period of time?

Please .......let us all know your results!!!!!! That little bit of lube may be the trick.

bangerjim

Good point. I had not thought about any reaction because of the epoxy's ability to resist them seems "good enough" to fight off the solvent in JPW. But I could have it wrong, and it does need to be tested. I need to cast more Mihec 200 grain 45's to test it out in the Glock, but I do have some of the Mihec 125 grain 9mm's here that I can coat with JPW tonight, and leave them for a week or so. The amount I am going to use will be just enough to skin the boolit PC, not really as a lube as much as a friction modifier for the first cm or so down the barrel.

KYShooter73
09-06-2013, 12:20 AM
I thought about it too after watching the auto epoxy guy on YouTube a few months back. Have not tried it yet. Worst it could do is a little smoke....please do tell on results.

500MAG
09-07-2013, 01:36 PM
81249

First batch!

btroj
09-07-2013, 02:38 PM
Zombie killers?

500MAG
09-07-2013, 04:49 PM
Zombie killers?

Yeah, you'll see soon enough.

el34
09-07-2013, 06:42 PM
Damm those are purty 500! Just today I received a pound of PBTP candy lime green, I hope it's what you used!
Are those white noses? How'd you do that?
Bill

500MAG
09-07-2013, 06:45 PM
Damm those are purty 500! Just today I received a pound of PBTP candy lime green, I hope it's what you used!
Are those white noses? How'd you do that?
Bill
No, just light reflecting off the gloss. I got this color off of eBay. It's a neon green. I'm going to be trying some crazy things with the colors. I have to say that it has turned out to be a rather easy process.

el34
09-07-2013, 07:23 PM
My first time was last Monday, I did 3 small batches. The first one left stuck-on foil and I threw most back in the pot. For the next ones I used the non-stick foil (bangerjim I think) and set them on 6-32 nuts, somebody else's tip. Those came out great. Later today I'm going to WM and get the big Black&Decker convection toaster oven I checked out, $50. Then try to figger out how to put 3 layers in it. Tomorrow I plan to try the candy neon green and the hot candy blue that came today. Someday I'll shoot some, after getting over the new fun of it.

It'd be interesting to know how they work for you, and when or if you size them.

Bill

500MAG
09-07-2013, 07:27 PM
My first time was last Monday, I did 3 small batches. The first one left stuck-on foil and I threw most back in the pot. For the next ones I used the non-stick foil (bangerjim I think) and set them on 6-32 nuts, somebody else's tip. Those came out great. Later today I'm going to WM and get the big Black&Decker convection toaster oven I checked out, $50. Then try to figger out how to put 3 layers in it. Tomorrow I plan to try the candy neon green and the hot candy blue that came today. Someday I'll shoot some, after getting over the new fun of it.

It'd be interesting to know how they work for you, and when or if you size them.

Bill
Picked up my toaster oven at the thrift store for $5. Cut a couple of cookie sheets in half and covered with nonstick foil. While one set is in the oven I'm powdering and getting other sets ready. It goes pretty quick. I sized with the lee sizer before coating and don't intend on resizing. Funny, I was close to giving all my push through sizers away because I haven't used them in years once I got my 450.

Maximumbob54
09-07-2013, 07:48 PM
I'm trying to find more toaster oven pans. The one pan mine came with is 11" by 13" and it seems to be an impossible to find size.

Can anyone point me to some?

I did find a place that wants $25 for them and that seems ridiculous. If I keep baking boolits then I wanted to add a second oven with both running three trays at a time. No way am I paying $100 for pans... :|

500MAG
09-07-2013, 07:52 PM
I'm trying to find more toaster oven pans. The one pan mine came with is 11" by 13" and it seems to be an impossible to find size.

Can anyone point me to some?

I did find a place that wants $25 for them and that seems ridiculous. If I keep baking boolits then I wanted to add a second oven with both running three trays at a time. No way am I paying $100 for pans... :|
Like I said. I took a large Walmart cookie sheet and cut it into two halves that fit perfectly.

el34
09-07-2013, 08:30 PM
I took a large Walmart cookie sheet and cut it into two halves that fit perfectly.

10-4. Maybe or maybe not a few 1/2" holes poked in them for the air to spread around.

Did you size them dry? The only time I tried it was apparent Lee's instructions to lube first were probably right. But then you'd have to clean it off. I tried sizinga few after the PC but it took a lot of force and a little coating came off, maybe along with lead rubbed off by the sizer.

500MAG
09-07-2013, 10:04 PM
10-4. Maybe or maybe not a few 1/2" holes poked in them for the air to spread around.

Did you size them dry? The only time I tried it was apparent Lee's instructions to lube first were probably right. But then you'd have to clean it off. I tried sizinga few after the PC but it took a lot of force and a little coating came off, maybe along with lead rubbed off by the sizer.

I put a little dab of mystery oil on a rag and wipe them over the boolit before I run it thru, the acetone cuts that right off after sizing.

Maximumbob54
09-07-2013, 10:13 PM
I toss back anything that fails sizing. If the coating can't handle sizing then I figure it's not going to handle shooting either. I try to let both the epoxy coated and the powder coat coated stuff set for at least a day to allow either coating to fully cure before sizing. I've only once tried adding a bit of JPW to some that were still warm and tumbled them and yes it did help the sizing a small bit but I'm trying to avoid anything that will cause buildup in the seating die.

bangerjim
09-08-2013, 01:04 AM
10-4. Maybe or maybe not a few 1/2" holes poked in them for the air to spread around.

Did you size them dry? The only time I tried it was apparent Lee's instructions to lube first were probably right. But then you'd have to clean it off. I tried sizinga few after the PC but it took a lot of force and a little coating came off, maybe along with lead rubbed off by the sizer.

I size DRY after casting AND after powder coating (ES gun). My molds drop slugs almost perfect, so there is really no drag on the 1st size, but I do it just to make sure there are not any "ringers" in there. The 2nd size after the coating has a bit of resistance but does NOT remove any of the flat black coating. It only makes it slightly shiny on the tops of the grease grooves.

I do not use ANY lube for sizing, as it will keep the coating from sticking in the 1st place and I have done absolutely no research if it will soften the PC coating over time when left in the grease grooves.

Remember, your sizing die is MUCH harder than the lead or coating.....you are not pushing it thru at sonic velocities.....so you will NOT "lead" your die!

Forget about the Lee directions that came with the sizing die and the bottle of Alox! If you are doing gun PC'ing, you have moved way beyond using that "burnt grease" (alox) on your boolits!

bangerjim

KYShooter73
09-08-2013, 01:18 AM
I do exactly the same as Bangerjim. First time through, Im just removing any imperfections in the boolit, 2nd time Im actually sizing. Nothing should come off, and there is very little effort the 2nd pass.

el34
09-08-2013, 02:39 PM
I size DRY after casting AND after powder coating (ES gun). My molds drop slugs almost perfect, so there is really no drag on the 1st size, but I do it just to make sure there are not any "ringers" in there. The 2nd size after the coating has a bit of resistance but does NOT remove any of the flat black coating. It only makes it slightly shiny on the tops of the grease grooves.

I do not use ANY lube for sizing, as it will keep the coating from sticking in the 1st place and I have done absolutely no research if it will soften the PC coating over time when left in the grease grooves.

Remember, your sizing die is MUCH harder than the lead or coating.....you are not pushing it thru at sonic velocities.....so you will NOT "lead" your die!

Forget about the Lee directions that came with the sizing die and the bottle of Alox! If you are doing gun PC'ing, you have moved way beyond using that "burnt grease" (alox) on your boolits!

bangerjim

Thanks jim, that was solid advice. Lee says to size lubed or the die will lead. My "question everything" attitude made me try but it was tough so forevermore I Recluse'd before and after sizing.

I don't want to worry about lube screwing up the ES PC so based on your experience I'll try dry sizing some tonight. At worst I can try the mystery oil w/acetone cleanup.

I didn't plan to size after the PC but I'll measure final diameter and stay under 0.002 over.

Bill

bangerjim
09-08-2013, 04:37 PM
Thanks jim, that was solid advice. Lee says to size lubed or the die will lead. My "question everything" attitude made me try but it was tough so forevermore I Recluse'd before and after sizing.

I don't want to worry about lube screwing up the ES PC so based on your experience I'll try dry sizing some tonight. At worst I can try the mystery oil w/acetone cleanup.

I didn't plan to size after the PC but I'll measure final diameter and stay under 0.002 over.

Bill

The dia should only be about a thou or so larger after PC. But I size that 2nd time as a check on the "solidity" of my PC coatings. You never know if a few could get loaded on the spray rack with some stray grease from your hands that will prevent the PC from sticking. You will never know unless you run them thru the die. I HAVE found a few......not many....that the coating DID come off in spots that were caused by grease non-adherence and not from wear/scraping simply from the die.

And it only takes a few minutes to size them that 2nd time!

bangerjim

500MAG
09-08-2013, 05:50 PM
I wasn't going to size a second time but changed my mind. The second run through also helps to take off any burrs from where they stick to the foil. Didn't get any rub off with second sizing.

el34
09-08-2013, 06:33 PM
The dia should only be about a thou or so larger after PC. But I size that 2nd time as a check on the "solidity" of my PC coatings. You never know if a few could get loaded on the spray rack with some stray grease from your hands that will prevent the PC from sticking. You will never know unless you run them thru the die. I HAVE found a few......not many....that the coating DID come off in spots that were caused by grease non-adherence and not from wear/scraping simply from the die.

And it only takes a few minutes to size them that 2nd time!

bangerjim


I wasn't going to size a second time but changed my mind. The second run through also helps to take off any burrs from where they stick to the foil. Didn't get any rub off with second sizing.

I'm following your lead. I had planned to PC another test batch tonight, got two new powders from pbtp and a convection toaster oven today, but I'm getting hit with the Sunday afternoon lazy.

bangerjim
09-08-2013, 08:41 PM
I wasn't going to size a second time but changed my mind. The second run through also helps to take off any burrs from where they stick to the foil. Didn't get any rub off with second sizing.

Glad you brought that up.

I forgot about the 2nd pass also removing any flash that can exist at the base. I have found the 1st and 2nd coating usually does not create any flash. But, being me and trying to stretch things, I try using the same N/S foil for 3 & 4 batches. Nice thing about using it again is the places to set the boolits are right there......little silver circles, and makes it faster setting them in rows. But the coating does build up and will create the flash at the bottom. 2nd sizing easily breaks all that off!

bangerjim

HDS
09-09-2013, 04:54 AM
Is there a difference between using glossy and matte powder coat finishes? I think a matte black could look real nice for .223 and similar rifle bullets.

Maximumbob54
09-09-2013, 07:54 AM
Am I to understand that pushing a lead boolit through the sizing die will NOT lead the die if there is no lube present???

I'm not sure if galling is the right term or not but yes you will lead the die from sizing. You may not see it but it's there. I didn't even know I had some in my die but pushing through some powder coated boolits showed me some leading I didn't know I had.

bangerjim
09-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Am I to understand that pushing a lead boolit through the sizing die will NOT lead the die if there is no lube present???

I'm not sure if galling is the right term or not but yes you will lead the die from sizing. You may not see it but it's there. I didn't even know I had some in my die but pushing through some powder coated boolits showed me some leading I didn't know I had.

Well, if your molds are dropping waaaaaaay out-of-spec slugs, then yes, you probably could get some lead deposits. I have shoved thousands and thousands of DRY rounds thru my 9/30/38/40/45 dies and not one speck of lead ever stayed behind. And that is inspecting with high power magnification equipment.

It all depends on your mold size vs your die size. If you are off by several thou, you probably gotta leading problem!

Leading could occur, but a brass wire brush will easily remove it. Removing lead from a short sizing die is sure a lot easier than a 24" rifle barrel!

Gauling typically occurs when you have two very similar or same hardness metals in friction contact, such as brass to brass, alum to alum, steel to steel. That is why bushings are used and are made of dis-similar (and softer) metals than the shaft that runs inside them. Even then, gauling can occur over time with the lack of proper lub (dry bearing squeal...we have all heard it). But I am talking about many Feet Per Second/RPM continuous contact, not just simply pushing a soft(ish) lead slug slowly thru a (much harder) polished steel die by hand.

Only you can decide if dry sizing is right for you...........and if you want the tons of extra time needed to clean ABSOLUTELY ALL the lube off the slug & out of the grease grooves B4 PC'ing. If you lube to size, you might as well just stick with olde-fashioned grease all the way.

bangerjim

bangerjim
09-09-2013, 12:17 PM
Is there a difference between using glossy and matte powder coat finishes? I think a matte black could look real nice for .223 and similar rifle bullets.

I have tried all 4 colors HF sells and have found the matte black sticks better, will not come off (easily) with an acetone wipe test, and just looks cool.....on any cal slug. Reminds me of "black ops" ammo! That is the only color I use now. And I just cannot see paying $15-20/# for powder thru the internet! After all, it is the protection of the gun bore we are after, not a technicolor beauty pagent. If you want fancy colors, the black is perfect for spraying paint on, as it really sticks to the matte surface. Most paint will NOT stick to gloss.

("No warranties or guarantees expressed or promised by the writer if you spray regular "paint" on your black boolits and shoot them. Can you say "painting" in the barrel?")

The red, especially in 45LC RN, looks like tubes of lipstick! The yelow does not cover the darker lead well at all. White........no comment.


bangerjim

Maximumbob54
09-09-2013, 06:09 PM
I actually like to do a thin coat of the matte black and then a second thin coat of the gloss red but I'm doing the Piglet method. I keep lurking here because I'm on the fence of trying to use the spray gun but it just looks so slow. But they do come out looking better. With the black and then red mine turn out looking like they are a very dark red. They have a satin sheen to them.

Echd
09-09-2013, 06:11 PM
I have tried all 4 colors HF sells and have found the matte black sticks better, will not come off (easily) with an acetone wipe test, and just looks cool.....on any cal slug. Reminds me of "black ops" ammo! That is the only color I use now. And I just cannot see paying $15-20/# for powder thru the internet! After all, it is the protection of the gun bore we are after, not a technicolor beauty pagent. If you want fancy colors, the black is perfect for spraying paint on, as it really sticks to the matte surface. Most paint will NOT stick to gloss.

("No warranties or guarantees expressed or promised by the writer if you spray regular "paint" on your black boolits and shoot them. Can you say "painting" in the barrel?")

The red, especially in 45LC RN, looks like tubes of lipstick! The yelow does not cover the darker lead well at all. White........no comment.


bangerjim

Does white not work? I've used a lot of black and red successfully, and several people have hinted that the yellow is sub par.

Is the white like yellow, or have you tried it?

500MAG
09-09-2013, 06:27 PM
Like Bangerjim said, the matte black looks really nice. I do like the zombie green ones I made but there is something about that matte black.

btroj
09-09-2013, 06:36 PM
Question for all- how or do you bake the bullets?

Has anyone tested hardness before and after powder coating and baking?

I got some Hi Tek coated bullets back today and the baking had annealed them significantly. Just wondering if the powder coating does likewise. The annealing would be time and temp dictated.

Echd
09-09-2013, 06:42 PM
I bake mine in a toaster oven in the garage.

I water drop the bullets out of the oven to hopefully harden them up a bit. Either way I haven't seen any problems.

500MAG
09-09-2013, 06:45 PM
400 degrees 20 minutes in toaster oven. Water drop them immediately out of oven.

rlb
09-09-2013, 08:17 PM
Same here. Just put 30 rounds through the 44 that were full tilt+ and the bore is still squeaky clean.

btroj
09-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Ok, water dropped from oven at 400 will keep em reasonably hard. Good to know.

500MAG
09-09-2013, 08:26 PM
I did make a huge mistake while coating a batch this weekend that may help. Don't ever attempt to adjust the flow nob on the powder gun tip while you are standing on the pedal. The shock made me feel like a lightning bolt shot out of my &$$. I must have looked like the cartoon when they get shocked and you can see their X-ray. :groner:

bangerjim
09-09-2013, 08:32 PM
I use a Wellbilt convection/toaster 1200w oven I stole from the wife to bake outside my back workshop. I bought her a much bigger and nicer digital one to replace it! It works very well and I have 8 racks for it and can load 4 at a time while filling/spraying the other 4.

Bake @ 400F for 10 min ONLY in a preheated oven. I let them cool to 180F in the oven and then take them out. I use a HF laser temp gun.

You can tell when the matt black is pretty much done......it turns real shiny at about 320F and then after about 6 min they all turn matte finish.

All the directions on all powders I had seen say 400 for 10 min. That allows the molecular bonds to adhere with the substrate (lead) and form that cool hard shell we are after. Baking for too long may weaken that bond, but I have not documentation about that. I know you can bake multiple times at 400 without degradation of the 1st coat.

I never worry about lowering the bhn by baking them. I have LOTS of 15-22+ bnh alloy to mix, and even though I water drop at casting (to prevent burnt fingers!! not harden), I am sure if you are relying on water dropping to increase hardness, you are loosing some.

But........remember, we PC to allow us to shoot softer lead and not really worry about all that hardness and water dropping whoop-la stuff anymore!

My slugs all end up around 12bnh on my Cabine after PC'ing and air cooling.

And if your mix does not have any antimony in it, water dropping will gain you really nothing but cold boolits real fast. Lead + tin do nothing in water quenching.

bangerjim

btroj
09-09-2013, 08:47 PM
Jim, my alloy is roughly 2.5 Sb, 1 Sn, rest Pb. Water dropped and aged it tests at 24 BHn. Heated to 400 for even 10 min the cooled will anneal the bullets a bit. Only testing will say exactly how much.

Not a huge issue, just something I am concerned about. I like to know what variables exist so I know what to look for.

el34
09-09-2013, 09:53 PM
Based on a couple of forum comments and speculative reasoning, BHN might not be that much of an issue. Might be possible to PC boolits cast from very soft alloy, maybe improve expansion in handguns at least with HP's.

35 shooter
09-09-2013, 10:37 PM
Cooked at 475 degrees for i hour with another type coating then water dropped and the next morning had to hit 3 times hard with about a 3 pound hammer to reduce it to half diameter. Usually takes 2 days to a week for them to harden up but with the coating maybe it worked quicker? I would have thought slower but that's what happened.Sorry i didn't have bhn tester but they definitely hardened up. (This was'nt pc coating so i don't know if that makes a difference)Alloy was straight ww.

bangerjim
09-10-2013, 12:07 AM
Already finished my jug of HF white, works fine. I WD after casting due to my coating method, my alloy is ~ 1% Sb, I coat, cook 30 min @ 400, WD immediately. Hopefully I'll make it to the range with a little harder alloy, trying for 1MOA @ 100, 2400+fps. If that works, I'm set. My home made tester gives a 12# reading for the WD uncoated, 1-2# for H-T coated. Big hardness difference. Don't clean the 308 often & usually shoot 40-80 rnds a trip. Nothing to clean, not even the BCG.

That is what counts! Where the rubber......er....lead meets the road!

The proof is in the shooting and lack of leading.

Keep us informed as to what you find from range tests and WD'ing after PC'ing.

You are pushing the FPS up way beyond what I do for now. The indoor range I use will not allow my 30-06! So I need to go the hills someday and try it. There I can recover my slugs for analysis.

bangerjim

500MAG
09-13-2013, 05:40 PM
81745
First trial with PC in my P94 40 cal at 15 yards .Ran to the range on my way home from work and literally ran in to shoot one magazine. I'm pretty happy with them. Now I need to try them in my match pistol.

btroj
09-13-2013, 05:54 PM
500 mag, I just sized some of the bullets you coated for me. The shiny green sure sizes down smoother than the matte black. I had to use some case lube on the black to keep them from seizing in my Lyman sizer, the green went thru with no lube.
I wonder if that makes a difference in the barrel too?

Has anyone noticed any differences in performance based on matte vs shiny coat finish?

500MAG
09-13-2013, 05:59 PM
500 mag, I just sized some of the bullets you coated for me. The shiny green sure sizes down smoother than the matte black. I had to use some case lube on the black to keep them from seizing in my Lyman sizer, the green went thru with no lube.
I wonder if that makes a difference in the barrel too?

Has anyone noticed any differences in performance based on matte vs shiny coat finish?
Wow, that's surprising. They resized fine for the 40 cals. I am going to be doing some of the 312-155's and see if there is a difference. Wish I would have done more of the green for you.

btroj
09-13-2013, 06:13 PM
Not a problem. I was surprised too. Both seem to have the same thickness coating, it must be the surface finish.

I was happy to see that the bullets were only very slightly annealed in curing the coating. They started at 25 BHn and are still at 22. Tha should help them handle some speed better.

Rifle shooting bring a whole different set of requirements. Alloy strength is more important as speed get higher but a hard, brittle bullet is worthless for most hunting.

rlb
09-13-2013, 06:45 PM
Oh Brad, you're getting sucked in. You'll never be the same and it'll be years before you can get back to normal.[smilie=l:

btroj
09-13-2013, 08:06 PM
Rich, I am afraid of just that!

I am very intrigued by this stuff. Heck, even if just for pistol the ability to get rid of the grunge from bullet lube. I can have pistols stay cleaner, longer.

I hope the other amigos don't kick me out for this.......

rlb
09-13-2013, 08:40 PM
They won't. Ian is thinking about it already and Lamar's gears are turning also. You're safe I think.

btroj
09-13-2013, 08:44 PM
Yes! I am ahead of the curve! For once

This stuff has mucho promise, it just needs more testing to see what it can really do

rlb
09-13-2013, 09:01 PM
I don't do the rifles yet, but my pistols, 357, 44, and 454 love it. I have a 475 Linbaugh coming in a couple of weeks that will get some testing also. I have been packing a couple of PC bullets in my pocket for better than a week with keys, change, and a couple of knives and the coating is still like I just did it.

jonp
09-21-2013, 07:04 AM
This is very interesting. Has anyone compared powder to epoxy coating as I was going to try that

bangerjim
09-21-2013, 11:32 AM
This is very interesting. Has anyone compared powder to epoxy coating as I was going to try that

Been there..................done that!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?210666-10-epoxy-coat-can-it-be-done-lets-find-out

I will stick to ES PC.

bangerjim

xacex
09-24-2013, 06:07 PM
Noticed when cleaning the AR that there is a pretty good buildup of PC at the crown inside the flash hider. Can't be good for accuracy. I'll try a dental pic to get it out. Got to drop back on the load so I don't get more buildup.

I took the flash hider off the blackout for that reason. It wasn't even the PC boolits as much as it was the lead. Put a thread protector on the muzzle. It was worse with a muzzle break. Put the muzzle brake on the 6.5 Grendel.

xacex
09-25-2013, 12:15 AM
I don't see why not if you have a 16 inch or longer barrel. They don't need to be pinned or welded after the assault weapons ban sunset if your barrel is long enough. I picked up my thread protector from borwnells, but any 5/8x24 tread protector will work. I actually got my thread protector before my flash hider because it was cheaper when I built the rifle.

KYShooter73
09-25-2013, 11:19 PM
Planned on a baking session tonight, flipped on the compressor....motor seized immediately. Had an 8 gallon. I'm thinking one of the little 1/3hp 3 gallon should fit my needs. All I do is PC and pump up tires. This little guy maybe: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Campbell-Hausfeld-3-Gallon-Compressor/12534870. Funds are pretty tight right now.

bangerjim
09-26-2013, 12:42 AM
I use a $39 pancake compressor from Harbor Freight. Works just fine. They have them on sale almost every day! Nothing you would use for your daily job, but perfect for our powder spraying every so often!

bangerjim

xacex
09-26-2013, 01:42 AM
Popper,Here is a few...

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=5%2F8x24+thread+protector

Garythegunnut
10-03-2013, 12:07 AM
Popper, make sure to put your blocks on the barrel as close to the FH as possible. V- notch wood blocks work fine. Some will tell you to use receiver blocks instead, but this is wrong. Double check to make sure it's not welded, soldered or pinned and FWIW, I have found some flash hiders on way tight so go slow with steady pressure.

MacFan
10-06-2013, 12:01 PM
Just in case anyone doubts the tenacity of ES gun applied powder coat sticking to lead.
45acp 230gn RN, TL grooves coated with gloss black PC. (sized to .451, crimp .468/.469 and I use a Lee FCD)
Shot through 24 inches of red rubber mulch and hitting a 3/8" steel plate. Accuracy at the range is as good as I can get with my Colt Gold Cup. No leading at all in my GC or Mac semi auto clone after many hundreds of rounds.
Also no leading in my XDS... before it was recalled.



83580

bangerjim
10-06-2013, 12:43 PM
Just in case anyone doubts the tenacity of ES gun applied powder coat sticking to lead.
45acp 230gn RN, TL grooves coated with gloss black PC. (sized to .451, crimp .468/.469 and I use a Lee FCD)
Shot through 24 inches of red rubber mulch and hitting a 3/8" steel plate. Accuracy at the range is as good as I can get with my Colt Gold Cup. No leading at all in my GC or Mac semi auto clone after many hundreds of rounds.




83580

A picture is worth a thousand words!

Now mabe some of the "classic" greasy lube nay-sayers will start to admit that ES PC does work.....very well! I have no way of recovering my spend slugs (indoor range) and welcome any pix you guys can share of what you are finding!

I know I get no leading and no PC residue in my guns. And no lube grease smoke!

THANKS for sharing.

banger

KYShooter73
10-06-2013, 01:14 PM
New tip...I got the bright idea to powder coat over my pop can gas checks sitting upright on non-stick aluminum foil. I thought it would lock down the check better. Now I have 500 paper weights. The excess pc flashing that normally comes right off in a push through sizer mangles the gas check and causes major sticking issues in the sizer. Won't do that again.

bangerjim
10-06-2013, 03:51 PM
Do NOT PC GC's. I have tried it and they come off and get really messed up. It it a tight enough squeeze to get the GC's thru the sizer to lock them on anyway. Adding the PC thickness will create way too much thickness for success.

And I think my matte black boolits with shiny copper GC's look really cooooool! So do others.

banger

drysound
10-12-2013, 11:32 PM
Hi Powder Coaters! After reading this and other threads here at Cast Boolits, I decided to give PCing a try. I want to thank all of you for all the posting. Sharing your ideas, successes and an occasional failure is like taking a class or buying a book but here it's all free. I jumped in today with a HF unit. I bought yellow, red and flat black powder. I tried a few yellow first and it was a spectacular failure. Just didn't get very good coverage. Then did a some red and am blown away by how good they look. everyone has a good solid coating. Now to my problem Next was flat black. Has anyone had any problems with the black powder coming out of the jar in clumps. My new jar of flat black was foil sealed but when I broke it open and poured the powder into the spay cup I noticed it seemed to be coming out of the jar in clumps. I closed the spray jar up tight and shook the heck out of it and in looking into the jar, it looked like the clumps had broken up but then when I tried to spray, rather than the nice cloud of powder I got with the yellow and red, the powder puffed out and then the gun seemed to be stopped up. I could hold the gun upside down and shake it and then with the pedal depressed, get one burst of powder and then it seemed plugged up again. Repeated this two or three times and finally had what I thought was good coverage but after curing in my yard sale special $5 toaster over, I discovered that several of the bullets looked great on one side but light, thin coverage on maybe of third of the surface of the bullet. Air pressure, ground connection to the tray, stepping on the pedal, all seemed to be right. Have any of you experienced an issue like this with black or other colors of the HF powder. Any suggestions to resolve the clumping. Shake or stir? And finally, if I missed this answer, please forgive me but can I take the black ones with the light coverage and give them a second coat of powder or should I just melt them down and start over?

Thanks again for all the great info you guys have posted. Great help for a newbie.

500MAG
10-12-2013, 11:44 PM
Drysound, I have used a few different colors with no problems. I have the flat black from HF but have not had an issue. I do sometimes tap the plastic bottle while applying for a stronger flow of powder. I have my setup on a small table in the middle of my garage and am able to walk around it while applying to get full coverage. I have never applied a second coat but suspect that it won't matter as long as you are resizing after coating.

bangerjim
10-13-2013, 12:31 PM
Roll the storage bottle SEVERAL times before you open it and pour an inch or two (NO MORE) into your gun jar. That "liquifies" the powder. During your spray session, lightly bump the jar with your palm to keep the powder stirred up. What you have in there is a "fluidized bed" and you must keep it in liquid form. You just have to play with air pressure and the gun flow valve to get the feel that is right for you. Use the smallest nozzle in the box.

I have gone thru 3 jars of the HF matte black and am on my 4th with ZERO problems! Yellow sucks....it will not coat well....even after 3 coats! I do only ONE coat using red or black. Red is nice but in 45LC, it looks like tubes of lipstick! White is too pristine for me. And changing colors is a pain, especially from black to white. I may buy another gun system for alternate color. I have mixed red, black, and white to come up with an earth brown-ish look. I have not mixed the yellow with anything because of the poor coating it exhibits.

I cannot see paying $15-25/pound for powder thru the net when the ONLY functions of it are to eliminate greasy lubes and barrel leading. Not a technicolor beauty pageant!

Good luck ..............and welcome to the addiction!

banger

MacFan
10-13-2013, 01:25 PM
Drysound, I would worry the jar of HF black you have may be old or had been sitting in a hot truck or warehouse. I've never seen clumps in HF powders.
When I use it I just shake the original jar a few times, pour a couple ounces in the gun jar and shoot. It does settle, so shaking the gun jar sideways or bouncing on my hand keeps it moving as bangerjim points out.
I shoot at 20 psi. I point the gun away from my bullets for the initial quick puff, then shoot.

bangerjim
10-13-2013, 02:50 PM
I do not think the ambient temp even here in AZ in the summer in a warehouse would cause the stuff to clump. Humidity.........That's a different story! Your listing does no state where you are so I am only guessing. Really helps to at least put a state in your description. "State of Confusion" does not count! HA.....ha. We are all there!

banger

el34
10-13-2013, 09:33 PM
Use the smallest nozzle in the box.

I cannot see paying $15-25/pound for powder thru the net when the ONLY functions of it are to eliminate greasy lubes and barrel leading. Not a technicolor beauty pageant!

Good luck ..............and welcome to the addiction!

banger

Your posts inspired me to try ES PC. But I like adding more than 13 pieces of flair, going to 11, so I couldn't resist the beauty pageant part. The price is stupid but 1lb covers a lot of boolits.

When I got my HF gun I put on the smallest diffuser cone but later just removed it altogether. I point the gun straight down just high enough to prevent arcing, and move across each row of boolits slowly, boolit at a time watching for it to get coated. More like mowing the grass than spray-painting.

bangerjim
10-13-2013, 09:44 PM
"Excellent......my plan is coming together nicely!" (MR.Burns...TheSimpsons)

I left the small one on to get enough diffusion to cover on & around the boolits I coat. But sounds like the diffuser is not even needed.

Thanks for the update.

I am glad I cause inspiration.....rather than perspiration!


banger

KYShooter73
10-14-2013, 03:56 AM
Drysound, I have never had your problem, but have read other guys running the powder through a sifter to break up any clumps.

freebullet
10-14-2013, 08:25 AM
Dang it. You guys have me about to stop at hf. I found myself eyeballing a toaster oven at the thrift store. Trouble is I would be coating everything in sight

MacFan
10-14-2013, 12:23 PM
I do not think the ambient temp even here in AZ in the summer in a warehouse would cause the stuff to clump. Humidity.........That's a different story! Your listing does no state where you are so I am only guessing. Really helps to at least put a state in your description. "State of Confusion" does not count! HA.....ha. We are all there!

banger

I dunno Banger. The epoxy based PC's are chemical reactions waiting to happen. I once worked at a harbor Freight for a few months while I waited on a decent tool maker job to come through. Even here in IL. it gets really hot in those HF semi trailers sitting in the sun. I wouldn't discount prolonged hot storage conditions messing up the powder. Anyhow, I'm off today, gotta go do some powder coating. The toaster oven is calling... :)

el34
10-14-2013, 02:23 PM
Dang it. You guys have me about to stop at hf. I found myself eyeballing a toaster oven at the thrift store. Trouble is I would be coating everything in sight

You'll have fun. I've looked all over the house for something other than boolits to PC. It has to fit the toaster oven, and has to have a spot to attach a ground wire and a spot it can sit on (maybe just hang). I had a couple ideas but they were too dumb to try.

BTW, when shopping for a toaster oven, it's reportedly wise to get a convection type. All that means is that it has a little fan inside to circulate the air and it prevents hot spots. However, I haven't tried a non-convection unit.

bangerjim
10-14-2013, 06:02 PM
Dang it. You guys have me about to stop at hf. I found myself eyeballing a toaster oven at the thrift store. Trouble is I would be coating everything in sight

I made all of my own quick-change lathe carbide tool holders + the post in the shop and got tired of spraying them with matte Krylon paint, just to have it come off with normal usage. Now I am PC'ing all 25 of them as well as some of the other lathe tools that get used a lot.

Ant that is only the tip of the iceberg!

Also will be coating my wife's garden hand tools. Gloss red for those.

banger

500MAG
10-14-2013, 06:08 PM
Dang it. You guys have me about to stop at hf. I found myself eyeballing a toaster oven at the thrift store. Trouble is I would be coating everything in sight
I've been thinking about pimping the brake calipers on my truck. Lol

drysound
10-14-2013, 09:33 PM
Thanks for the advice to deal with the powder clumping. I will try shake, stir and sifter when I break out the powder coating this weekend. Bangerjim I am in central Florida. Been a hot, humid summer, who know how long the powder sat in a hot HF warehouse. Also gun came with the large diffuser cone on it. I am switching to the small cone and may try el34's no cone method. I'll post an update this weekend.

wb_carpenter
10-15-2013, 12:37 AM
Any advice to someone looking to do this for .223 working up a cycling load for an AR15?
Cost effective vs buying FMJ assuming i'd enjoy doing it and not taking time into consideration?
Possible to get below 2moa with a very accurized ar15(match barrel,2 stage trigger,free float etc)?
Do you still need gas checks?
I cast for 9mm and .45 and have been considering .223.

xacex
10-15-2013, 01:39 AM
I tried but could not get any better than 6 MOA at 100. My problem may be the powder choice. I would like to try with H4895 but ran out about 8 months ago and have not been able to get any more. My results were with H335. I have some other powders to try, but haven't played with loading anything new since deer season started. Got my buck, but I am working on another load before elk season starts.
Next year I should have a PC boolit ready for prime time. This year it was jacketed due to what I had loaded and had not shot during testing.

500MAG
10-21-2013, 06:53 PM
I made these yesterday to deal with the "sticking" issue. I used JB Weld to attach to cookie sheets. JB Weld has a max temperature threshold of 600 degrees. I'm going to put the foil over this and push it down around each nut.
84943

w0fms
10-21-2013, 07:15 PM
I finally got around to casting some short ("Kurz", right?) Lee 356-102-2R's for my 380s, and I decided to black powder coat them pretty much right after the casting session. Yeah, it took me almost two months to get back to PC'ing and casting...

This time I turned down the heat a bit on my non-convection toaster oven and kept a close eye on the process, used the upside down wire mesh tray then flipped it over and re-coated the top. I didn't melt them this time! The 100 "test run" was okay.. but I need to use either another wire mesh rack or the non-stick for when I flip them on the re-coat.

I didn't attempt to size them first, and they are a little big after PC.. about .3585 on the MIC. When running these through a Lee sizer (I have a .357 sized one that works well for 9mm cast with Alox, anyway), what do you lube these with? Should I just Alox them too and call them good, or standard sizer/case lube or what?

The nuts and JB weld, by the way is a GREAT idea. That will become the replacement tray for the wire mesh experiment. I'll put on 2 different size nuts, about 50 of each on a sheet and then I can set them ball down for the first pass on that. I don't know why I didn't think of that one myself. ;)

Anyway.. this time... they turned out good. Slightly better than my yellow coated .45's.. I must be the only person in the world who yellow worked out for...

drysound
10-21-2013, 07:35 PM
This looks interesting. Please post a follow up and let us know how this works. I have been looking at doing something like this but was thinking about the time it would take to solder each nut down. Hadn't thought about JB Weld. You use the Non-Stick foil?
Good Luck on this.

gimling
10-21-2013, 08:36 PM
I tried this method it worked for a short while. eventually buildup of powder and they will stick again.

I made these yesterday to deal with the "sticking" issue. I used JB Weld to attach to cookie sheets. JB Weld has a max temperature threshold of 600 degrees. I'm going to put the foil over this and push it down around each nut.
84943

el34
10-21-2013, 11:13 PM
I tried this method it worked for a short while. eventually buildup of powder and they will stick again.

The thing I made with flathead screws through nylon spacers died too. The nylon shrunk a little every time I baked so I had to kep tightening the nuts. After about 15 bakes the nylon started crumbling, assisted by my having to push hard sideways to snap the boolits off.

I first tried non-stick foil, then went to 6-32 nuts sitting on the foil. I had to use wire cutters to separate the nuts from the boolits but the JBweld might have prevented that, I'm gonna try it next.

Thanks 500MAG.

500MAG
10-22-2013, 05:39 AM
I tried this method it worked for a short while. eventually buildup of powder and they will stick again.

It's something that takes 10 minutes to make. The pan comes from the dollar store. With nonstick foil if I can get 15 to 20 runs with it I'll be happy.

Beagle333
10-22-2013, 09:49 AM
You are just using the nuts to make elevated bumps in the foil, aren't you? Wouldn't it last a really long time if it never gets paint on it, or am I missing the technique? (I'm hoping to try it!)

Smoke4320
10-22-2013, 11:25 AM
I do the same thing .. nuts glued to a drip pan..
on rifle bullets where I want the base covered I just put nose down and push bullet thru the tin foil .
hex nut lets bullet stand base exposed..
Pistol bullets I just place base down on the nut covered with foil and coat away..
Done several thousand so far .. works very well..

KYShooter73
10-22-2013, 11:58 AM
Re: W0fms.... I don't lube at all to resize. The PC will be fine.

w0fms
10-22-2013, 05:55 PM
I used a little Lee case lube last night when I sized them since a couple were a little more effort than I felt comfortable with... however, you are right the PC itself is a pretty good lube itself and I could have pulled it off w/o lube... I tried it that way. Good to know about it sticking to the nuts..maybe that's not a "great" one step solution.

This is going to sound crazy, but has anyone tried a food grade spray, like Canola Oil (with soy lecithin in it?). Would it hurt the PC? I doubt it.. but.. the nuts on the sheet sounds nice for a ball-down tray.. and spraying it with food oil seems easier then then putting the non-stick foil on the nuts when "ball down".. if you get what I'm asking or leading into...

w0fms
10-22-2013, 06:01 PM
Okay.. how about a Teflon sheet/pan, cut to fit into the toaster oven .. with holes drilled in it for the ball? It might work too... has anyone tried a Teflon cookie sheet instead of the non stick Reynolds wrap? Now to flip them over and do the other side the Reynolds is hard to beat....

xacex
10-22-2013, 07:20 PM
You wont get the electrostatic charge to the boolits with the Teflon sheet.

bangerjim
10-22-2013, 09:32 PM
NS foil is the easiest and cheapest way to do this guys. Why waste time with sheets of this and rolls of that. Cover the surface (with or without glued nuts) and spray away.

At $5.50/#, the HF powder is not worth trying to recover!!!!!!

banger

KYShooter73
10-23-2013, 10:39 PM
This is going to sound crazy, but has anyone tried a food grade spray, like Canola Oil (with soy lecithin in it?). Would it hurt the PC? I doubt it.. but.. the nuts on the sheet sounds nice for a ball-down tray.. and spraying it with food oil seems easier then then putting the non-stick foil on the nuts when "ball down".. if you get what I'm asking or leading into...

I asked the same thing over in the main PC thread, no replies, so I sorta tried it. I used a bit of motor oil spread thin, but still too thick. I was very careful not to transfer any oil to the pc'd portion of the boolit. My results merit another test with an extremely light coat of something non-stick. Everything came up easily, including the overspray around the boolits, but some oil leeched up about 1/16" onto the boolit causing loss of PC adhesion.

drysound
10-23-2013, 11:23 PM
I finally took another shot at powder coating. See the picture below for results from my second try. Red and Black is HF powder. I tried Bangerjim's method for other colors using pink and blue Krylon Fussion spray paint. I am painting the flat black PC boolits. My first paint try was with pink and I think I just sprayed it to light. After it came out of the oven the coverage was even but not as pink as I expected. I shot more blue paint in my next try and that worked much better. However both the pink and blue were harder to run through the size die than the powder coated red and flat black. Also, lost some pink paint on every one going through the size die. I am not coating the base and using non-stick foil to line my trays cut down from 92 cent Walmart cookie sheets.

85176

Thanks again to everyone for the suggestions after my first try. I solved the clumping problem with the Black HF powder A little shake and rolling the jar seemed to break it up. I marked a dowel rod to use as a dip stick to be sure I had between and inch and inch and a half of powder in the sprayer jar. I tried el34's method and removed the diffuser tip from the spray gun. This worked great for me. I also constantly tapped the jar as I was spraying. Now I get a nice fog of powder over my tray. I think it worked better than using the diffuser tip. Someone posted a photo of their PC work area and had a spray booth made from a big cardboard box. I also made myself a spray booth from a large box. I am working on my back porch and the box/booth worked great to help deal with little breeze and kept the overspray concentrated in a small area that made for easier clean up. I am using a $5 toaster oven but may have to break down and buy a new one. I constantly had to tweak the temperature dial as the oven seemed to be running way hotter than the dial setting. Using a HF infrared thermometer reading off the black back of the oven. Any suggestion on good toaster ovens? Thanks again for all the great knowledge you all are sharing here. Great help for a newbie.

el34
10-24-2013, 05:26 PM
Good lookin' boolits!
I agree with the tapping on the bottle. I wish it were clear so you could see what's going on in there. I wonder if the conical shape is significant, there might be a glass pickle jar that would fit.

I got my oven at Walmart, a B&D Convection. It was either $40 or $50, don't remember. It's thermostat is accurate according to my casting thermometer and the timer is handy. It has slots for 2 trays but only comes with 1 and I haven't yet tried to double the production rate.

With no lube I size before PC and so far haven't thought they need a post-PC sizing. Sooner or later we'll get good at this.

w0fms
10-24-2013, 05:32 PM
Aldi's has Teflon sheets on sale this week for almost nothing (like less than Goodwill), and Wally World is across the street.. If non-Teflons are cheaper at Wally I'll go that way. I understand that Teflon is a hell of an insulator, as I'm an RF engineer... but so is the PC and I coated the ball tops with a coated flat base already. I think the big sheet being charged (obviously I'll scrape off where the alligator clip goes) is probably enough for the PC process to work.

I might not be talented with the spray gun, but if I don't go ball side down, I can't seem to get a good coat on the base of the boolit where the lube groove is. Even when I hung in mid air and sprayed through hardware cloth. To do the the base of the boolit side down is to just make it look good. My last batch looks pretty good but the process is not yet ideal.

I am starting to lean towards a cut up cookie sheet with a bunch of holes drilled into it and the non-stick foil just poked into the holes a bit. Flat base down on a flat sheet with the foil first, and then flip up ball side down to finish it off on the 2nd coat.. we will see...

bangerjim
10-24-2013, 06:56 PM
Aldi's has Teflon sheets on sale this week for almost nothing (like less than Goodwill), and Wally World is across the street.. If non-Teflons are cheaper at Wally I'll go that way. I understand that Teflon is a hell of an insulator, as I'm an RF engineer... but so is the PC and I coated the ball tops with a coated flat base already. I think the big sheet being charged (obviously I'll scrape off where the alligator clip goes) is probably enough for the PC process to work.

I might not be talented with the spray gun, but if I don't go ball side down, I can't seem to get a good coat on the base of the boolit where the lube groove is. Even when I hung in mid air and sprayed through hardware cloth. To do the the base of the boolit side down is to just make it look good. My last batch looks pretty good but the process is not yet ideal.

I am starting to lean towards a cut up cookie sheet with a bunch of holes drilled into it and the non-stick foil just poked into the holes a bit. Flat base down on a flat sheet with the foil first, and then flip up ball side down to finish it off on the 2nd coat.. we will see...

I will be most interested to find out how those TFE sheets work. The sheet material in MANY times thicker than the powder coat, so there may not be enough EMF energy transferred thru it to make the powder stick as well. I have not disassembled the electronics box of the HF gun to see what method they are using to generate that high tension electrical potential. It is not really true static electricity, more like a hi-tension Tesla technology I think. Definitely not a neon sign xformer!!!!

banger

bangerjim
10-25-2013, 04:15 PM
Teflon will prevent the ES from working. NS foil works best. The WW sheets are probably cheaper than HW store alum, if they are sturdy enough to hold 10# of boolits. Banger - it's like a BW TV horizontal generator.

Brings back memories of my childhood! B&W TV's with HV fly-back circuits! I never considered they would use that, but is works. Charge a pF cap and let 'er rip! I tore into many of those things. My first o-scope was an old 19" B&W TV I converted to use as a scope for a science fare presentation.

Can anybody say vacuum tubes????????

banger

MacFan
10-25-2013, 04:32 PM
Not rocket science but here's the bullet lifter I use when one gets away after PC'ing. Harbor Freight small needle nose sharpened and bent.
I've tried ES PC'ing some bullets on plain sheet metal and then using the needle nose to transfer them to a NS foiled covered sheet. I'm starting to like this method. I can PC and transfer 100+ easily while I wait for a batch to cook. No excess at the base, no falling over, no rolling away, we'll see.

The flat handle return springs are Gooped in place to keep them out far enough to do their job

85327

bangerjim
10-25-2013, 08:02 PM
Not rocket science but here's the bullet lifter I use when one gets away after PC'ing. Harbor Freight small needle nose sharpened and bent.
I've tried ES PC'ing some bullets on plain sheet metal and then using the needle nose to transfer them to a NS foiled covered sheet. I'm starting to like this method. I can PC and transfer 100+ easily while I wait for a batch to cook. No excess at the base, no falling over, no rolling away, we'll see.

The flat handle return springs are Gooped in place to keep them out far enough to do their job

85327

Wow......a nose picker AND boolit picker-upper! Nice. I'll have to make one.

banger

el34
10-25-2013, 11:01 PM
Brings back memories of my childhood! B&W TV's with HV fly-back circuits! I never considered they would use that, but is works. Charge a pF cap and let 'er rip! I tore into many of those things. My first o-scope was an old 19" B&W TV I converted to use as a scope for a science fare presentation.

Can anybody say vacuum tubes????????

banger

My favorite vacuum tube is the el34. 85396

I'm also an electrical engineer and have been scratching my head over the necessity for DC continuity from ground clip to the lead. A charge of one polarity is attracted to a charge of the opposite polarity even though there's a barrier between. But being poky I haven't yet set up an experiment, I want to try parchment paper under half the boolits and compare.

drysound
10-26-2013, 10:08 AM
Hey MacFan, when you use the needle nose to transfer PC'd bullets from your sheet metal to the baking pan do you get any pin holes in the coating from the tips of the needle nose or does the powder coating fill in any pin hole as it melts and cures? This method would help me pass the time waiting for a batch to cure.

MacFan
10-26-2013, 10:43 AM
Hi Drysound, I'd say 50% have very slight pin holes. At worst case they're small, maybe .015 to .020" in diameter. If my hand is really steady placing them down then there's no pinhole. Even with the imperfection I can't imagine it affecting the coating or balance much at all. My bullets are all tumble lube grooved. I try to pick up at the top groove. I found if I tap them gently when I pick one up it knocks off excess powder but leaves plenty to coat. It sounds tedious but it goes pretty fast. I find myself with nothing to do after the first couple batches while I'm waiting for more to cook. I guess I could clean the garage... naw.

Update: I shot some bullets with a candy blue powder coat yesterday and used the bullet lifter to put them on used but clean foil. Maybe 10% have slight pin holes from the lifter. The ability to flow and fill in minor imperfections may vary with different powders.

el34
10-26-2013, 12:08 PM
El34 how about the 6L6? Anyway, the HF is about 12KV DC. You could clip the bottom (neg) portion but get a reduced avg DC. The fancy ($$$) units use a varying (modulated) DC to reduce shadowing. I put 0.023 holes in the nose and no accuracy problems I can see, but no place to shoot > 100 yds yet.

6L6's work. But the Marshall purist would lean towards el34's, I'm in that camp.

A few months ago I tried parchment paper under the boolits to prevent gluing them to what they're sitting on. It worked I think but I was brand new to PC and too stupid to know what a good coating should be. If true continuity is not actually a requirement for a static charge system it would increase fixture design options. All I'm thinking about is a very thin non-conductor, re-inspired by the teflon idea.

Maybe pulse-modulating the high voltage generation wouldn't be too tricky but would require discovering the HF circuit. Don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze though.

MacFan
10-26-2013, 12:48 PM
All I'm thinking about is a very thin non-conductor, re-inspired by the teflon idea.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was PTFE or Teflon on the non-stick side of the foil many of us use.

el34
10-26-2013, 02:02 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it was PTFE or Teflon on the non-stick side of the foil many of us use.

I thought the same thing so I checked with a multimeter. It's zero-ohms conductive with feather-light pressure on the meter probes. The no-stick property must be from something else.

Beagle333
10-26-2013, 09:50 PM
The HF red came out perfectly on the .357 boolits. I have them sitting on small machine nuts under the foil. I managed to coat a sandwich baggie full of them and only had two fall off the little nuts. It is quite a game of careful balancing though, from the spray table into the toaster. ;)

The nuts are not JB-Welded to the tray, I just placed them in rows, put the foil over them, and pressed it into shape. The foil keeps the nuts from moving until I get the boolits set on em. I didn't know what spacing I was going to need, so I didn't want to permanently fix the nuts to the tray until I had that figured out, but I am now thinking I don't have to glue em down at all.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF011_zpsc1da476d.jpg
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF017_zpseff35e38.jpg

bangerjim
10-26-2013, 10:49 PM
The HF red came out perfectly on the .357 boolits. I have them sitting on small machine nuts under the foil. I managed to coat a sandwich baggie full of them and only had two fall off the little nuts. It is quite a game of careful balancing though, from the spray table into the toaster. ;)

The nuts are not JB-Welded to the tray, I just placed them in rows, put the foil over them, and pressed it into shape. The foil keeps the nuts from moving until I get the boolits set on em. I didn't know what spacing I was going to need, so I didn't want to permanently fix the nuts to the tray until I had that figured out, but I am now thinking I don't have to glue em down at all.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF011_zpsc1da476d.jpg
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF017_zpseff35e38.jpg


I have found 1" spacing for 45's and 3/4" for 9/30/38/40's do very well. HF red works VERY well, but as I have said earlier, my 45 1 ogives look like lil tubes of lipstick!!!! HA....ha. I do use it for 38's and 40 HP's.

Your slugs look nice!

bangerjim

el34
10-26-2013, 11:28 PM
Beagle-
They look great. How difficult was it to pull them off the foil?
And did you get foil or PC flanges on the boolit bases? Maybe a pic?

Tomorrow I'm gonna do a bunch of 357 with gloss black and I want to try the nuts and foil.

Beagle333
10-27-2013, 12:02 AM
They pretty much fall over and off the foil when I take em outta the toaster. Here's what it looks like after. Some of the nuts have shifted slightly from their original position while jostling it around (I didn't know I was gonna be taking a pic of the tray), but I think I can load this tray again and test it tomorrow am. :smile:
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF018_zps668a6ac4.jpg


This is what the base looks like. Hardly any flashing.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF019_zps65e361fe.jpg

But it wouldn't really matter on these, because they got shoes anyway! They are 90% pure lead and I want to make em really splat when they hit. My goal with PC is to get softer lead to fly faster. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF022_zps8858d813.jpg

Echd
10-27-2013, 12:33 AM
I don't think the one on the top left is going to do much. It says it has zero calories!

Beagle333
10-27-2013, 11:14 AM
Okay.... this is going very smoothly. Thanks to BangerJim for recommending that folks get that $6 regulator too! I don't think the reg on my tank would be effective after going through 50 feet of hose. http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF025_zps3395dd5e.jpg
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF027_zps3fae10e5.jpg

bangerjim
10-27-2013, 02:07 PM
Okay.... this is going very smoothly. Thanks to BangerJim for recommending that folks get that $6 regulator too! I don't think the reg on my tank would be effective after going through 50 feet of hose. http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF025_zps3395dd5e.jpg

Those look "maaaaaaaaaavelous!"

Good job and welcome to the ES PC gun insanity!

Now you go out there and get those zombies!!!!!!!!!!! And you do it before you cast another booilit, Bob Cratchet. :2gunsfiring_v1:

bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

freebullet
10-27-2013, 04:29 PM
I know I've read it somewhere along the way, but how much thinkness does this add?

MacFan
10-27-2013, 06:54 PM
I know I've read it somewhere along the way, but how much thinkness does this add?

I'm getting .001 to .0015" added to the diameter with the 4 different powders I've tried.

Beagle333
10-27-2013, 07:37 PM
The NOE WFN coated nicely. I think this one is going to be a winner.:mrgreen:http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF029_zps4c2dffc7.jpg

The candy coating looks pretty, but I'm doubtful about its lube ability. I'll find out soon.
Fortunately I just have a sample of this paint and not a pound.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF_zpsa683d8fb.jpg

Things I've learned today:
1. My HF gun works best at 30 psi using the gauge at the gun. Less, and it tends to let powder build up in the tube and spits out clumps occasionally. This stopped completely when I left it on 30#. Keep in mind though, I don't know how accurate a $6 gauge really is.

2. My coatings added around .002-.0035 to the diameter, depending on color. This was not a problem, as they slid right through the sizing die so easily that I had to look to be sure it was the right one.

3. Do not attempt to cheat and use regular foil. That batch will get melted down and repoured.:oops: I was getting 2 batches per non-stick sheet. I got flashing on the 3rd, so started replacing it after 2. This will probably depend on how heavily you coat and how much overspray you have.

4. Changing colors is NOT an easy thing. It's about as easy to change the alloy in your pot, and about as time consuming. I think I'll stay with the HF red. It worked really great. (although many prefer the matte black, but I didn't have any black here.)

5. Now that I have figured out my spacing, I'm going to JB-Weld my nuts. ;) It is a pain to line em up again after every changing of the foil.

freebullet
10-27-2013, 08:09 PM
Wow those are some stellar lookin boolits beagle. So it appears you can somewhat control how thick you apply it with the spray on method, that could really be handy.
Has anyone tried running a thicker coating on a undersized boolit? Like a .278 coated upto .309ish.

C. Latch
10-27-2013, 10:19 PM
Oops. I just read all 10 pages of this thread. I see a purchase in my immediate future.

el34
10-27-2013, 10:30 PM
I'm wildly impressed with your boolits Beagle. Just today I did a few hundred with the NS foil-over-nuts setup. It was absolutely painless, the boolits literally poured off the tray after cooling. But I learned that more than 2x on the same foil is pushing it. Who cares, NS foil is cheap and easy. Like you I decided to glue the nuts. Next time I'll try a block of dense foam rubber backed with something stiff to mash the foil around the nuts with one push.

Today I used gloss black from PBTP and didn't skimp on the powder- better a bit too much than too little- they grew 0.002".

Thanks for the pics, they get right to the bottom line.

And thanks to bangerjim for relentlessly pounding on the HFESPC method and 'specially the non-stick foil.

85617

xacex
10-27-2013, 10:31 PM
Oops. I just read all 10 pages of this thread. I see a purchase in my immediate future.

Now go and read the 84 or so pages of the first powder coat thread. Good info and some nice picture in there too. Somewhere around page 50 I posted some 45 hollow points that expand perfect. Those are part of my pet load now.

el34
10-27-2013, 10:49 PM
Now go and read the 84 or so pages of the first powder coat thread. Good info and some nice picture in there too. Somewhere around page 50 I posted some 45 hollow points that expand perfect. Those are part of my pet load now.

And learn the diff between ElectroStatic and piglet and epoxy and Hi Tek. The only bad thing about getting the HF ES gun is, well, there isn't one.

drysound
10-28-2013, 01:19 PM
85656
Has anyone tried the Sears Electric Powder Coat Gun system. I was searching for a source for additional powder cups for my HF system and ran across an ebay listing for new Craftsman systems for about $60. Looks like these things have an internal fan system and don't require an air source. I have to do my PCing on my back porch and like the idea of not having to drag my 20 gallon compressor out when I want to PC. Just wondering if anyone here is using the Craftsman and if so, what you think of it.

I find the HF gun fairly easy to clean with a little air but would really like to find one or two more powder jars. I'm still experimenting with colors and not having to clean the jars so much would be nice. To bad HF didn't make the sprayer jar the same size as the jars the powder comes in.

Beagle333
10-28-2013, 02:01 PM
So it appears you can somewhat control how thick you apply it with the spray on method, that could really be handy. Has anyone tried running a thicker coating on a undersized boolit? Like a .278 coated upto .309ish.

I have not tried bumping up a boolit yet, but I do have an old Ideal 358429 that casts about .0015 undersized and I want to see if I can build that up and have it hold up to shooting pressures. I have no idea about going up .031, that is quite a bit.

bangerjim
10-28-2013, 02:06 PM
Wow those are some stellar lookin boolits beagle. So it appears you can somewhat control how thick you apply it with the spray on method, that could really be handy.
Has anyone tried running a thicker coating on a undersized boolit? Like a .278 coated upto .309ish.

I add only 1-2 thou thickness as I use only ONE spray coat/bake. Trying to do what you are suggesting above is impossible. You would end up with a boolit encased in a non-controlled thickness casing that would really screw up your accuracy! And it would take an unknown number of coats/bakes which would be a total waste of time to gain a projectile that would fly uncontrollable downrange. And any know load data would be out the window.

But.......hey........go for it. That is what we do here..........bend/break the curve!!!!!!!

Let us know what you find.

banger

Jevyod
10-28-2013, 02:30 PM
I have read through this post, as well as about three-fourths of the mega thread! Anyway, I didn't see much on pc affecting expansion. The reason I was wondering, I would like to use a 35 rem for hunting, and was assuming I would use a hp mold so I can get some expansion. Any idea how pc interferes, if any, with the expansion of a hp? The reason I don't go test it myself, is I have no hp mold. I am trying to figure out what route to go with my 35. I do have my HF gun and am waiting on some powder to start on my 9.

Echd
10-28-2013, 02:32 PM
85656
Has anyone tried the Sears Electric Powder Coat Gun system. I was searching for a source for additional powder cups for my HF system and ran across an ebay listing for new Craftsman systems for about $60. Looks like these things have an internal fan system and don't require an air source. I have to do my PCing on my back porch and like the idea of not having to drag my 20 gallon compressor out when I want to PC. Just wondering if anyone here is using the Craftsman and if so, what you think of it.

I find the HF gun fairly easy to clean with a little air but would really like to find one or two more powder jars. I'm still experimenting with colors and not having to clean the jars so much would be nice. To bad HF didn't make the sprayer jar the same size as the jars the powder comes in.

I believe you'll find reference to them a lot earlier in the original PC threads. They seem to perform acceptably, but still cost a bit more than the HF one and I'm not sure if you can use any powder or just theirs.

If you already have the HF gun why not just buy a tiny compressor used or from HF? Seems like having a really small one would be just the ticket.

Echd
10-28-2013, 02:33 PM
I have read through this post, as well as about three-fourths of the mega thread! Anyway, I didn't see much on pc affecting expansion. The reason I was wondering, I would like to use a 35 rem for hunting, and was assuming I would use a hp mold so I can get some expansion. Any idea how pc interferes, if any, with the expansion of a hp? The reason I don't go test it myself, is I have no hp mold. I am trying to figure out what route to go with my 35. I do have my HF gun and am waiting on some powder to start on my 9.

I have shot PC'd 45-70 and 45 ACP HPs with no loss to the expansion so far as I could tell. It's just a coating, it's not going to deter the expansion significantly- it's not a copper jacket after all!

bangerjim
10-28-2013, 04:27 PM
I have read through this post, as well as about three-fourths of the mega thread! Anyway, I didn't see much on pc affecting expansion. The reason I was wondering, I would like to use a 35 rem for hunting, and was assuming I would use a hp mold so I can get some expansion. Any idea how pc interferes, if any, with the expansion of a hp? The reason I don't go test it myself, is I have no hp mold. I am trying to figure out what route to go with my 35. I do have my HF gun and am waiting on some powder to start on my 9.

Coat & shoot away................it will not bother any expansion you are anticipating. Just try smashing one on a steel plate nose to base and watch what the coating does........it expands and cracks along where the lead splits & expands..........but STILL sticks to the lead! Amazing stuff.

banger

Balta
10-29-2013, 03:38 PM
85776
i almost cry when a see some pictures hiere of coted bullets.I want make sombody else cry :)
Left is epoxy paint tumbling method,Widerlader recipe and a right (blue) powder coating..For powder coating i use simple TRIBO electrostatic gun and powder from this site www.nordicpulver.dk Hi also sels at ebey.Powder is polyester type but it works.I did go litle thin at blue bullets .
85779

w0fms
10-29-2013, 05:39 PM
Okay.. well, I settled on a Walmart 96 cent sheet, cut in half which is almost perfect for my cheap oven, drilled, but not all the way through with a 1/2" bit.. makes a nice series of divots-- covered with the non-sticky foil. Learned that the "bottom" rack is a no-go as I started to melt again.. so I can only do about 70 at a time. I did mine face down, then about a 5 minute bake... then hit them again, and a 5 minute bake.. flip over on a flat sheet, spray once and do the full 12 min. I get PC TJ that way.. works fine...

w0fms
10-29-2013, 05:40 PM
One other comment.. a small 2-5 gal "holding tank" with a regulator could be used with the HF PC gun as well.. or a really small compressor.... for "portable" use. I was pondering those options for a while..

Beagle333
10-29-2013, 06:43 PM
One other comment.. a small 2-5 gal "holding tank" with a regulator could be used with the HF PC gun as well.. or a really small compressor.... for "portable" use. I was pondering those options for a while..

I got a 100' air hose. :D

Even though my 12 gal compressor is on wheels, it doesn't drag easily through the gravel driveway.
:redneck:

KYShooter73
10-29-2013, 10:52 PM
Balta those blue ones look great. I don't think I have seen any blue before.

A while back my big compressor crapped out on me. I'm using a little Wal-mart special...I hate it..very loud and very slow. I run it to my big tank, go inside, watch a movie then read a book then take a nap...then when everything is all pressured up I go back out and coat.

MacFan
10-30-2013, 10:19 AM
Good looking bullets Balta!

Maximumbob54
10-30-2013, 03:00 PM
For some reason that blue almost looks like it's jumping out from the screen at you.

Russel Nash
10-30-2013, 03:39 PM
Just in case anyone doubts the tenacity of ES gun applied powder coat sticking to lead.
45acp 230gn RN, TL grooves coated with gloss black PC. (sized to .451, crimp .468/.469 and I use a Lee FCD)
Shot through 24 inches of red rubber mulch and hitting a 3/8" steel plate. Accuracy at the range is as good as I can get with my Colt Gold Cup. No leading at all in my GC or Mac semi auto clone after many hundreds of rounds.
Also no leading in my XDS... before it was recalled.



83580

I have been away from the Powder Coated Boolit threads for a while. I noticed everything got stickey'ed finally. Yay! Anywhoo... I had to right click save that pic.

Thanks for posting that!

keebo52
10-31-2013, 10:08 PM
What is the best powder for coating 223 and 7.62x39? I'm using HF red and black for handgun. Will be using GCs.

Love Life
11-01-2013, 12:55 PM
I just got a 20% coupon for HF in the mail yesterday. Look slike this method will be added to the stable.

Springfield0612
11-01-2013, 01:01 PM
I'm headed to HF this weekend to get setup for the ESPC. TIRED OF ALL THE LEADING with the 9mm.

Oreo
11-01-2013, 03:44 PM
has anyone tried casting and then powder coating a boolit without any grease grooves at all? The reason I ask is that it would make for a shorter boolit of any given weight which means more case capacity and that often means higher mv at lower pressure.

Balta
11-01-2013, 04:11 PM
has anyone tried casting and then powder coating a boolit without any grease grooves at all? The reason I ask is that it would make for a shorter boolit of any given weight which means more case capacity and that often means higher mv at lower pressure.

I remove grease grove from my Lee 9 mm 125 grain bullet mold.Looks avesome but its tricky to do it right..Chek the picture in the post201 ,thats the red bullets with epoxy paint ,dont have the powder coated pictures

freebullet
11-01-2013, 04:21 PM
Local Wed paper had 25% off hf coupon. Look what you guys made me go and do. Was 70$ fer the gun kit & all four colors. Found toaster on cl gotta get it yet.

Beagle333
11-03-2013, 12:52 PM
Loaded up some .45s on the tray today. Having the nuts JB-Welded to the pan really does help. And I took the tip off the gun, it seems to really make it spray a tighter pattern and also lets it flow better and I didn't have any loose powder dropping out of the tube as I shifted and tapped the paint cup while spraying. I think that it works better without that little part. :-)
Wind here today is not friendly though. I built a little spray booth out of a cardboard box that is going to let me get the job done during brief lulls in the gusts. But it's not nearly as much fun as a nice calm day. I still see some "Piglet" days in my future. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/lined-up_zps8a2d4b7e.jpg

And as another thought.... I'm not going to modify my gun yet, but if that little electrode rod in the center of the gun were a bit shorter, I could get that tube just a little closer to the boolits and just spray em with a nice sweeping motion, rather than the current "fogger" pattern that is probably meant for wheel rims or motorcycle gas tanks.

Beagle333
11-03-2013, 01:21 PM
20 minutes later..... Bring on yer zombies! :D
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/green_zps76f1defd.jpg


(my apologies if you're tired of the zombie thing... this is the last of my green paint anyway) 8-)



I mixed the blue with the rest of the green. 'Interesting speckled pattern on this batch.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/blue-gr_zps0874d7fb.jpg

Here's a closer shot.... it shows how the powder swirls around and gets under the base while the boolit is sitting on the little nut. It coats the sides and down onto the base pretty well. I'm not bothered by the entire base not getting coated, because I believe this is just friction protection and I do not think it is needed on the centers of the base. Some of my lighter-coated piglet boolits only have coating on the outside of the driving bands and they will run pretty fast without any problems. I'll test this more soon.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/accurate45003_zps53f648bb.jpg

MacFan
11-03-2013, 04:30 PM
And as another thought.... I'm not going to modify my gun yet, but if that little electrode rod in the center of the gun were a bit shorter, I could get that tube just a little closer to the boolits and just spray em with a nice sweeping motion, rather than the current "fogger" pattern that is probably meant for wheel rims or motorcycle gas tanks.

Nice work!
BTW, I've shortened the electrode rod on my gun. I left enough thread (about 3/16") so I could still screw on a diffuser someday if I wanted to.
It still works fine and lets me get in a little closer.

WallyM3
11-03-2013, 04:47 PM
I must be "search challenged" or something. I can't find the electrostatic painting set up on Harbor Freight's site.

Edit: Then it hit me! "Powder coat". :groner:

el34
11-03-2013, 10:50 PM
I just put a PVC coupling on mine, does the same thing as shortening the electrode.

Yep! A thought is to go a bit further and choke it down but I haven't tried it yet.

el34
11-03-2013, 10:57 PM
Beagle- what size nut did you use? I made mine with 6-32 and boolits seem stable, even 230gr 45's. Yours look smaller, 4-40?

I think the smaller they are the longer you can use the foil. Could be wrong though.

Beagle333
11-03-2013, 11:03 PM
I don't have a problem with the flow, it's just that it's too far away, especially since I spray outdoors. I'm gonna give the coupling a try. 'Sounds like the solution! Thanks popper!


I'm using 6-32 as well. My 260gr 45's were stable. I didn't spill a one moving the tray from the spraying area into the toaster.
I just started using a fresh sheet every time today. My tray is only 9x11" (80 boolits), and my roll of non-stick foil is 35 feet long, so I get 46 sheets out of a box. At 20 minutes to bake, and 10-15 to cool, load, and respray.... I'm not going to use many sheets in a day. It'll last a long time.
At $2.98 per roll.... that comes to 7.1 cents per sheet, after tax. :D

el34
11-03-2013, 11:59 PM
I just started using a fresh sheet every time today. My tray is only 9x11" (80 boolits)

My tray is the same, 80 boolits. I used the foil 2x but that's it. I am now using a foam paint roller to mash the foil around the nuts, starting in the middle and rolling outward to prevent tearing. Does better than my fingers.

I have two trays so I reload one while the other is cooking, same as you. Just today I got a wire cooling rack to make a second for the oven, then I'll try getting 2 pans ready while the other 2 are baking. That'll keep me hoppin'.

gimling
11-04-2013, 12:12 AM
I tried that method worked ok, I found that using hex screws 1 1/2 inch long work better, take a piece of aluminum plate aluminum foil to cover both sides then run the hex screws in. you now have the ability to do both swc and flip it over and do hollow points will post some pics of my setup tomorrow. also as a side note doing it this way powder doesn't build up between plate and hex screws I do around 20 powder coats, then remove screws and replace the tin foil.


Loaded up some .45s on the tray today. Having the nuts JB-Welded to the pan really does help. And I took the tip off the gun, it seems to really make it spray a tighter pattern and also lets it flow better and I didn't have any loose powder dropping out of the tube as I shifted and tapped the paint cup while spraying. I think that it works better without that little part. :-)
Wind here today is not friendly though. I built a little spray booth out of a cardboard box that is going to let me get the job done during brief lulls in the gusts. But it's not nearly as much fun as a nice calm day. I still see some "Piglet" days in my future. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/lined-up_zps8a2d4b7e.jpg

And as another thought.... I'm not going to modify my gun yet, but if that little electrode rod in the center of the gun were a bit shorter, I could get that tube just a little closer to the boolits and just spray em with a nice sweeping motion, rather than the current "fogger" pattern that is probably meant for wheel rims or motorcycle gas tanks.

eljefeoz
11-04-2013, 02:37 AM
But........remember, we PC to allow us to shoot softer lead and not really worry about all that hardness and water dropping whoop-la stuff anymore!

My slugs all end up around 12bnh on my Cabine after PC'ing and air cooling.

And if your mix does not have any antimony in it, water dropping will gain you really nothing but cold boolits real fast. Lead + tin do nothing in water quenching.

bangerjim
Ahh, thanks Banger J,
THIS is what i was looking for.
All I want is to have decent accuracy and no leading. Not looking at the hoopla of annealing/re annealing/water dropping .
I'd rather stay with good ol BW : Vaseline if that was the case

waco
11-10-2013, 12:11 AM
sorry. but what is the point of putting the nuts under the foil?
cant you just put the boolits on the flat foil?
if its a pb boolit, whats the advantage of raising the boolit off the surface????

el34
11-10-2013, 01:01 AM
sorry. but what is the point of putting the nuts under the foil?
cant you just put the boolits on the flat foil?
if its a pb boolit, whats the advantage of raising the boolit off the surface????

The nuts under the foil create little pedestals the boolits sit on. The nuts are smaller than the base, so the boolit 'overhangs' the nut which helps prevent the powder from forming a connecting fillet from boolit to foil.

I use 6-32 nuts which seems to be a good size to use for 0.356 to 0.452 boolits without them easily falling off on the nervous trip to the oven. Out of the oven, they literally pour off the tray.

Using JB Weld to glue them makes the nuts stay in place while changing foil. The quick-set is only good for temps under 300F, the original 24 hr stuff goes to over 500.

In beagle's pic you can see the foil pressed down between the nuts, creating the pedestals. I use a foam paint roller to do it.

Beagle333
11-10-2013, 09:04 AM
if its a pb boolit, whats the advantage of raising the boolit off the surface????

The nuts under the foil create little pedestals the boolits sit on. The nuts are smaller than the base, so the boolit 'overhangs' the nut which helps prevent the powder from forming a connecting fillet from boolit to foil.
As in this picture. You can see it also creates a little wrap-around effect.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/accurate45003_zps53f648bb.jpg



nervous trip to the oven
Very accurate description!!!! :D But I haven't had any fall over yet.

waco
11-10-2013, 01:15 PM
Gotcha! Thanks guys. I think I'm getting the bug to try this.When you buy the HF PC gun, does it come with any powder? Does HF sell powder? How much $ for how much powder?

waco
11-10-2013, 01:23 PM
Also, I don't own any Lee push through sizer dies. Can I PC boolits right from the mold, then size in my 450 with no lube???

JASON4X4
11-10-2013, 02:12 PM
Guns don't come with powder but they are only $6 tub. most say flat black works the best

el34
11-10-2013, 02:43 PM
If you want to get loony with colors, check here-
https://www.powderbuythepound.com/Complete_Powder_Collection/

I used 5 of their colors and they emailed me asking for customer pictures-
https://www.powderbuythepound.com/gallery/index.php

It costs 4x the price from HF but is still miniscule $ per boolit. It buys you a wowee factor but nothing functional that I know of yet.

Springfield0612
11-10-2013, 03:27 PM
My lee 356-124 TL mold drops at .358 and after PC bullets go .359-.360 as cast. I use the .38 s&w expander and I shot my first 200 PC bullets yesterday and all fed and shot very accurately. The time it takes to set the bullets on the nuts on the tray is about less time for tumble lube size and tumble lube. Now I cast, PC, reload and shoot.

el34
11-10-2013, 03:53 PM
My lee 356-124 TL mold drops at .358 and after PC bullets go .359-.360 as cast. I use the .38 s&w expander and I shot my first 200 PC bullets yesterday and all fed and shot very accurately. The time it takes to set the bullets on the nuts on the tray is about less time for tumble lube size and tumble lube. Now I cast, PC, reload and shoot.

Cool- no sizing at all. And another cool thing is the slowly growing evidence that lead boolits, PC'ed, can go 4 thou over and work well. It's not uncommon to hear oversize lead is sometimes desirable to seal the barrel and I can't see PC as being too tough to allow the bit of swaging to occur.

Someday perhaps load data will have three columns- lead, jacketed, powdercoated.

Beagle333
11-10-2013, 04:30 PM
I started running out of some colors. Now I'm just mixing the leftovers. Seems to work just as well. :grin: (MP45-225 and Accurate 36-162V)

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/MP45-225006_zpse7938107.jpg

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/MP45-225005_zps85993bde.jpg

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/MP45-225001_zps427c40cc.jpg

fcvan
11-10-2013, 04:53 PM
I have used my Lyman 450 to size without having the lube reservoir pressurized and it works quite well. I am currently PCing all of my boolits and starting to collect different push through sizers. Yes, the Lyman works but so does a Lee hand press for sizing while watching football.

I've been using HF flat black for everything because I like the look and love the price. Some places sell by the pound for $16 bucks, HF is $5.50 for a pound. They sell red, yellow, white, and of course black. I've seen some pics of grey made by a guy who mixed the powders.

I use the HF PC gun but will be trying Rangefinders tumble method. The PC gun sells for $59, is occasionally on sale for $49, and if you have a coupon (like I used) you can get it for $39. As far as PC goes, I've tried it in .380, 9mm, .38/.357, 40, 41, 45 ACP and Colt, .223/5.56, 30 carbine, 30-06, and shortly 300 blk. Love it! I intend to try the tumble method for handgun but will stick with PC gun for rifle. My PC trays use gas checks to hold the boolits upright and keep PC from coating the check shank. Anyway, I'm digging the smooth shiny bores, the lack of smoke, and the lack of boolit deformation from semi auto feeding, especially the .223/5.56. Oh ya, the same powder charge with lead boolits obtain more velocity when PCd.

MacFan
11-10-2013, 05:00 PM
A 1" pvc sched. 40 pipe cap is a perfect friction fit on the end of the Harbor Freight gun. 3/8 inch diameter hole and a cut down electrode (just leave a little thread for future use) makes a pretty perfect narrow flow for running up and down between rows of bullets.

87129

Beagle333
11-10-2013, 05:25 PM
Yes, the Lyman works but so does a Lee hand press for sizing while watching football.
This!!! :goodpost:


************************
MacFan, the concentrated flow idea sounds good, but have you experience it building up behind the cap?

MacFan
11-10-2013, 05:30 PM
Hey Beagle333, yes you do get some built up behind the cap. It doesn't seem to affect flow or volume at all.
When I'm done shooting I take off the cap and tap the powder back in to my main storage container... a plastic bag.

bangerjim
11-10-2013, 08:01 PM
A 1" pvc sched. 40 pipe cap is a perfect friction fit on the end of the Harbor Freight gun. 3/8 inch diameter hole and a cut down electrode (just leave a little thread for future use) makes a pretty perfect narrow flow for running up and down between rows of bullets.

87129

Cool idea! I will have to try it this week. That 1" gun hole is definitely too big for what we do.

Thanks!

banger

Beagle333
11-10-2013, 11:15 PM
Terra Cotta boolits! (No, I can't recreate the color... it's just leftovers mixed together.):grin:

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/TB2007_zpsc51599ec.jpg

rattletrap1970
11-11-2013, 05:44 PM
Has anyone seriously shot these for accuracy yet? Like 20 shots uncoated from a ransom rest at some distance, then 20 coated? I would love to see some shooting data of a comparison. Cause I'm intrigued as hell.

Mk42gunner
11-11-2013, 06:13 PM
This sounds very interesting, I do have a question though. Since I have read that the powder coating builds up anywhere from 0.001-0.0025", is it tough enough to enlarge the nose on bore riding rifle boolits that are too small for the land diameter?

I foresee a trip to Harbor Freight in my future.

Robert

KYShooter73
11-11-2013, 08:37 PM
This sounds very interesting, I do have a question though. Since I have read that the powder coating builds up anywhere from 0.001-0.0025", is it tough enough to enlarge the nose on bore riding rifle boolits that are too small for the land diameter?

I foresee a trip to Harbor Freight in my future.

Robert

If I understand your question correctly, my answer is probably not. I'm new to rifle casting though. Here is my testing using Lee 311-155, COWW + 2% tin, air cooled. Test barrel was a CMMG 16in carbine gas port. Slugged, as measured with calipers :???: at around .3075. 1st batch sized .309, checked, coated, then resized .309; accuracy was horrible. 2nd batch checked, sized .309, not resized after coating for diameter of about .311; poor accuracy. 3rd batch checked, sized .311, coated, resized .311; much improved accuracy. I need some glass on the rifle instead of the Eotech to do any further testing because 3-4 moa is about my limit without magnification. I did not experience leading with any of these loads at 1825fps. Hope that helped.

Beagle333
11-11-2013, 08:54 PM
In my 30-30s (Win 94 and Handi), the noses of all of my boolits are already .301 and engrave upon loading, so I'd have to protect the nose from any further coating, or resize the nose. Resizing the .310 portion is easy, of course. Resizing the nose.... a little trickier.

el34
11-13-2013, 10:05 PM
A good read for those PC with ES gun.
http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/ ... WR1164.pdf


Popper, the link no workee.

bretNorCal
11-14-2013, 01:00 AM
http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/industrial-coating/Literature/Powder%20Documentation/White%20Papers/PWR1164.pdf

jcameron996
11-14-2013, 01:51 PM
Dang you guys. I've tried to put this out of my head half a dozen times in the last few days, but keep coming back to these threads and reading more. One question I have though. How fast can this be done? I realize it will depend on the size of toaster oven, but on average how many can be done in an hour or so. Comparatively the cost doesn't seem terrible, but with children, full time job, plus the ranch work my time is limited and valuable. This sounds like just what I am looking for to solve my 9mm leading issues.

Beagle333
11-14-2013, 01:57 PM
It really depends on the size of your oven (as you said) and how many trays you are using/rotating through. It takes about 5 minutes for me to spray a tray (including standing the boolits up)... and 20 minutes of bake time, then about 5 minutes to cool enough to dump them into a ziplock. (my preferred boolit storage container) ;)

So if you had a two-tray system baking, and two more always at the ready.... it would just depend on how many boolits you were rotating out, every 20 minute baking cycle.

JASON4X4
11-14-2013, 02:34 PM
I have a good size convection toaster oven I picked up. I made 3 trays out of scrap 1/8 steel my kids help me stand the boolits up on the foil coated trays. I coat and bake all 3 trays at the same time, we usually fit 100 to 125 per tray so we end up with at least 325 coated bullets in about 45 min from start to finish per bake.

waco
11-14-2013, 03:02 PM
Jason.
Are you using nuts under the foil to raise up the boolit, or are you just standing the boolit up right on the foil?

JASON4X4
11-14-2013, 05:11 PM
I just stand them up on the foil

JASON4X4
11-14-2013, 05:16 PM
I also soak them in acetone and by the time I am ready to PC they are dry.

Springfield0612
11-14-2013, 05:26 PM
I did a test with the HF matte black because my wife found me a convection oven at Goodwill for $12.99. When she brought it home, come to find out that you cannot control the temp only the time. Everything is preset. I verified the temps with my casting thermometer. Pizza is 425 on the dot, bake is 350 on the dot. I figured no need to measure broil as it should be 500+. So using the HF matte black I put a run of 9mm 124 TL in on the BAKE cycle (350 deg.) for 25 minutes, pulled them out, dropped them into water. A couple hours later I pulled a couple samples, and smashed them with a hammer. Not a flake of PC came off. I smashed one straight top to bottom and the other was laying on the side.
Shot them last weekend and all were very accurate and no leading, no PC in the barrell. So it appears in my experiance that a lower temp for a little longer time will cure the HF matte black without issue.

jcameron996
11-14-2013, 06:44 PM
jcameron996 You might want to look at the Hi-Tek thread. Works as well for pistol & allows higher volume per cooking cycle.
Thanks, I'll look into it. Trying to wade through some of these powder coating forums is a little time consuming.

w0fms
11-14-2013, 08:13 PM
You can cure the HF at 350F in less time than the instructions say and still have it survive the smash test. Once the gloss over, dull down and stop "smelling" they are done in my experience. It's really tough stuff.

The cheapest oven at WallyWorld will do about 80 on a tray for small calibers and 50-60 for larger. It takes me about 10 minutes of work, and another 10 of watching the oven. So in an hour, with the cheapest new setup, oh 200-250... Bigger ovens or ones that can do multiple trays (IMHO not worth the problems it causes, especially in cheap ovens)... more...

waco
11-14-2013, 08:21 PM
You can cure the HF at 350F in less time than the instructions say and still have it survive the smash test. Once the gloss over, dull down and stop "smelling" they are done in my experience. It's really tough stuff.

The cheapest oven at WallyWorld will do about 80 on a tray for small calibers and 50-60 for larger. It takes me about 10 minutes of work, and another 10 of watching the oven. So in an hour, with the cheapest new setup, oh 200-250... Bigger ovens or ones that can do multiple trays (IMHO not worth the problems it causes, especially in cheap ovens)... more...

Man, I can't run that many through my 450 in an hour. I've got to try this out!

MacFan
11-16-2013, 12:01 PM
Hey Popper, Banger and anyone else who has an opinion.
I've been very happy PC'ing and shooting a couple thousand 45acps. Alloy and type of PC doesn't seem to be too critical on these pistol rounds.
I'm probably going to start casting and PC'ing for 7.62 x 39. I intend to keep speeds around 2,100fps.
Any suggestions on whether I'll need gas checks with the PC? How about alloy suggestions with PC?
Thanks much.

rlb
11-18-2013, 11:23 PM
PC'ed doe. 168 yds with a Lee 310 gr. I don't think she missed the sticky lube.

87920

xacex
11-19-2013, 12:05 AM
^^^^First confirmed P/C kill!^^^^

Great job! I carried P/C boolits for elk this year, but Karma gave me two flat tires this year instead.

freebullet
11-19-2013, 12:54 AM
Congrats on the pc deer! I attempted to make hot pink for the wife using hf red/white. First to red then to white then I think I found the right combo. I really need to make a few jigs. Haven't loaded any yet, was just tryin the gun out & mixing colors.

87935

BretJ
11-19-2013, 11:51 AM
Does anyone know of any types of PC powders to avoid? As in, are there any coatings which may actually cause fouling in the bore or gas tubes? Are there some that work better than others?

felix
11-19-2013, 12:07 PM
Don't most paint gun brands have interchangeable nozzles? It would only make sense to carry that technique over to electrostatic guns as well. I haven't run across a water sprayer for furnace humidity control without this feature. ... felix

rlb
11-19-2013, 12:30 PM
Please post on how that PC tasted. Several have asked if contamination is bad.

Since I used Navy blue powder I am going to guess there'll be a hint of blueberry flavor.:lol:

HATCH
11-19-2013, 01:21 PM
Man, I can't run that many through my 450 in an hour. I've got to try this out!

Problem is that you still have to.size them.