30-30 load with H4350

[newton]

I believe that most will say that its pointless to use this powder/round combination, but am curious if there are any that have tried?

I have a pound of it that I load my nephews .243 with. With powder being scarce, and not loading many .243, I thought I would try it in the 30-30.

I can only find a smidgen of data, but no hard factual evidence. All information seems to point to its good nature in the 30-30 case, might not be the best use of the powder, but the people who have tried it like it.

I believe it is not published because a less than full case of it is potential for danger. But I am curious of what a load would be, just a full load - maybe 90% or so capacity? And I am curious what kind of velocities to expect.

I do not find any dangers with over charging, if anything there was some info that pointed to compressed loads. The danger I find is with under charging.

My go to load is 30 grains of Varget, but I cant find an ounce of it around here anywhere.

[high standard 40]

I have some older Dupont data for the 30-30 using IMR4350, even IMR4831. I can see an instance where you may want to use this slow of a powder in the 30-30. Namely it would work if you are looking for 100% load density with lower pressure and reduced velocity with no worries of over charging a case. Just for the record, that Dupont data with IMR 4350 and a 150 gr bullets shows a top load of 38.5 gr which is compressed and a velocity of 2080 fps..........pressure of 29600 cup.

[338RemUltraMag]

I am loading IMR 4350 @ 34 gr with a NOE 311041 and the group in the pic is normal (minus flyer and clean bore shot) in my Marlin 30-30 this is shot at 75 yds. Forgot to mention this load needs a 4" drop tube to get in the case.

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130430_193407.jpg

[newton]

I have some older Dupont data for the 30-30 using IMR4350, even IMR4831. I can see an instance where you may want to use this slow of a powder in the 30-30. Namely it would work if you are looking for 100% load density with lower pressure and reduced velocity with no worries of over charging a case. Just for the record, that Dupont data with IMR 4350 and a 150 gr bullets shows a top load of 38.5 gr which is compressed and a velocity of 2080 fps..........pressure of 29600 cup.

That's kind of what I have heard about it. Lower pressure/reduced velocity, but safe when its a full case.

I am shooting the Lee 170, which comes out to actual 180 grains. I think its worth a shot. I am surprised to see that it will only be a few more grains than what I was using in Varget. Usually when you switch to a slower powder, and fill the case more, you use a lot more powder.

I'm going to keep my eye out for the powder I like, but thanks for the input. Hopefully others have some also?

338, do you have any idea of the velocity you were getting with that load? What is the weight of your boolit as dropped?

[338RemUltraMag]

I will have to check the weight, but I am sure it is close to 185 gr. I will break out the chronograph on that load but the hornady book says it should be popping along at 2100 fps I found a good load and went with it, never checked the veocity.

[Mk42gunner]

Wile I haven't used it personally, Frank Marshall had an article that was reprinted in the 3rd ed. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook where he used 4350 behind a 311284 in a Savage bolt action .30-30. The article used to be on the cba website also, not sure if it still is or not.

Robert

[newton]

Wile I haven't used it personally, Frank Marshall had an article that was reprinted in the 3rd ed. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook where he used 4350 behind a 311284 in a Savage bolt action .30-30. The article used to be on the cba website also, not sure if it still is or not.

Robert

Yea, I have heard a lot about that. Thanks for putting a name with the data. Did some searching. Did not find the article, but found a thread on here where the load was 30 grains. Of course, this is with the 210 grain Lyman boolit. So I think I could start at 30 and work up with the 180 grain Lee. I would not mind a heavier boolit for my gun, but cannot say I like the lyman style. I know what this lee boolit will do, and it flat out knocks the snot out of a critter.

[newton]

Yep, guess I should have looked harder on here. There is so much information on this site.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?69881-Frank-Marshall-s-30-30-load

[newton]

Actually, I might start higher. I dunno, I've got the new Lyman cast manual, guess I should look in there to see what it says...duh. Not sure if it has it though. Have to wait till I get home.

[Nrut]

H414 & W760 are at the same burning rate as 4350 and they are the go to powders in my .32 Special with NOE's 326407 184 grain modified Loverin..
As a ball powder you don't need to use a drop tube..

[newton]

Well I was going to call Hodgdon today, but they are closed on Fridays.

Were talking about 4350 here, but I see most info pointing toward IMR versus the Hodgdon. I know they are next to each other on the chart, but does that mean that I can use the data interchangeably with the 30-30?

In the next couple of weeks I'll start some load development. I think I'll keep it simple. Seeing how most info points toward boolits heavier than mine, I'll keep my cap at 34 grains. I figure I'll load 3 each of 32, 33, and 34 grains.

I know that 3 rounds is not going to show grouping as well as 10, but it will give me velocity data and a general idea of where to go from there. I'd start lower, but those 30 grain charges spoken of seem to be directed more toward the heavier boolits.

Man I wish I did not have so much going on right now. I'd love to sit down and do it this very moment.

[TXGunNut]

Were talking about 4350 here, but I see most info pointing toward IMR versus the Hodgdon. I know they are next to each other on the chart, but does that mean that I can use the data interchangeably with the 30-30?-newton


Can't address the suitability of this powder in this cartridge but as far as IMR vs Hodgdon powders I think the only reason you see different data is that one may perform slightly better than the other in a given situation. It's also possible that the publishers of the data simply haven't tested the Hodgdon powder for whatever reason. H4350 is part of their "Extreme" line and IMHO the folks at Hodgdon improved on IMR4350 and other powders. If I see a listing for an IMR powder only and know that Hodgdon has a powder with the same number I use the IMR data for a starting point if I want to use the Hodgdon powder.
OTOH I suspect we could get a pretty heated debate going on IMR vs Hodgdon because for some folks there's no substitute for the old tried and true IMR (formerly Dupont) formulations and in some cases I'd be inclined to agree with them. I'm sure at one point in time we could have gotten a similar debate going over Dupont vs IMR powders but I was never able to detect a difference. Other folks will tell you not to substitute one powder for another and to only use published data. That's good advice but it's likely meant to protect the powder manufacturers and folks who publish loading mauals more than the end user. Many powders can be safely substituted for others, you just have to follow the rules of load development and it doesn't hurt to have a chronograph to keep an eye on things.
Bottom line, in these times many of us are having to use less-than-optimal powders and we just may find some loads that work acceptably. Seems most of the manufacturers are mainly interested in developing loads for j-words and high velocity loads and most of us are more interested in more sensible velocities with lead boolits so I often find powders that are less than optimal for conventional shooters work just fine for us.
If in doubt, do just as you did. Throw it out there for discussion, someone around here has probably tried it.

[andym79]

I have some older Dupont data for the 30-30 using IMR4350, even IMR4831. I can see an instance where you may want to use this slow of a powder in the 30-30. Namely it would work if you are looking for 100% load density with lower pressure and reduced velocity with no worries of over charging a case. Just for the record, that Dupont data with IMR 4350 and a 150 gr bullets shows a top load of 38.5 gr which is compressed and a velocity of 2080 fps..........pressure of 29600 cup.

Hi this is exactly what I am trying to achieve with my 30-30. I have a Lee manual that states H4350 compressed 35GN charge with a 170gn projectile, it states 1837fps! That's exactly the sort of thing I am looking for.

The odd thing about the Lee manual is unlike Lyman its has list for e.g. XGN Jacketed bullet, XGN lead bullet and XGN bullet, I have always steered away from the last as it ambiguous! Should I be working on the assumption that XGN bullet is applicable to lead and cast?

[andym79]

A poster from another forum had this to say about using certain powders in the 30-30
"I hasten to add Andy, do not use H4350 or H4831 in the 30-30. DON'T!

They are too slow and their performance might be unpredictable and unsafe.

H322 is your best bet I reckon."

Is this true,m is H4350 really "unpredictable and unsafe" in the 30-30 or is that only the case if the load is less than 90% density?

[TXGunNut]

I feel there are better powders for the 30-30, 4350 is too slow will probably be at least a bit inconsistent but I really don't know. I've had good results with IMR3031, Win748, Rx7 and as mentioned H322 has it's fans. For a plinker/small game load it's hard to beat 2400. You can probably load any of the medium-speed powders to the velocity you're looking for and have consistent velocity and accuracy.

[andym79]

This is the projectile with a gas check that I have been using!

104526

[castshooter-too]

I experimented with h4350 back in 08 when I read about it in another forum. used rcbs180fngc with 50/50 ww/hardball air cooled .shot out a 1894 30wcf carbine @50yards.best load this carbine has ever shot including factory loads.I continue to use this load today.the only issue was having to use a hardhold because of the recoil.those cast bullets ran about 1950fps@200gr.lubed and checked.pressure was normal with easy extraction.charged weight @34gr.
compressed.

[andym79]

Well I was going to call Hodgdon today, but they are closed on Fridays.

Were talking about 4350 here, but I see most info pointing toward IMR versus the Hodgdon. I know they are next to each other on the chart, but does that mean that I can use the data interchangeably with the 30-30?

In the next couple of weeks I'll start some load development. I think I'll keep it simple. Seeing how most info points toward boolits heavier than mine, I'll keep my cap at 34 grains. I figure I'll load 3 each of 32, 33, and 34 grains.

I know that 3 rounds is not going to show grouping as well as 10, but it will give me velocity data and a general idea of where to go from there. I'd start lower, but those 30 grain charges spoken of seem to be directed more toward the heavier boolits.

Man I wish I did not have so much going on right now. I'd love to sit down and do it this very moment.

Newton, di you call Hodgdon, di you do any load development?

[rhead]

I use 36 grains of H 4350 behind a Lee 150grain FN with a gas check. this is a lightly compressed load. It is my most accurate load in my Marlin, NEF, and Winchester trapper. The trapper recoil and muzzle flash are both brisk. Point of impact is the same as Rem. factory loads at 100 yards so IMO the drop in velocity is not significant to me.

Since the max load is what will (optimistically) fit in the case I think that IN THIS CASE the Hodgen and IMR data would be interchangeable.

"What i did was start when the compressed charge quit pushing the Boolit out of the case overnight and go down in .2 grain increments until the groups started opening up. I am aware that this is the reverse of the standard procedure but in this case the chances of an under charge are greater than the chances of an over charge. I have no idea if this load gives the same degree of accuracy with a jacketed bullet.

[newton]

You know I completely forgot about this thread. I have been REALLY busy this past year and have not even touched any lead or bullets. Yea, I feel like I am getting some withdrawls bad.

Anyways, I did try the H4350 and it worked to the tune of dropping my biggest buck to date last year. I wrote down the load thankfully, so I will try to get back with it. For some reason I want to say I ended up with 35 grains and it was a compressed load.

Thanks for the addition to the thread guys. I am about sick of all this stupid scare **** that keeps us from using the good ole go to powders. I guess that is one reason I quit for a while. Hard to get powder and I guess I might as well let the guy who has nothing else to do get the powder. I have plenty to do, but its time to get back on the boolit train!

[newton]

118474

Cant get the picture to rotate, oh well. I will try to find that pad of paper I wrote the load down on. I also sent it across the chrony. If I remember right again, it was a tad over 1900fps. Its a good load, and the groups were good too. I am going to be doing some shooting tomorrow for the upcoming hunt this weekend and I'll have some more data to share.

[rexherring]

I've used it and a few other powders not normally used for the .30-30. I had mine re chambered for the .30-30 AI so I can use some slower powders and get a couple more grains in it. So far I have good luck with 4064 and 414 with 170 gr. I can only push it so much due to case heads thinning in the thinner .30-30 case, but, the slower powders help with that.

[newton]

Looked at my notes. The Lee's weigh 182 w/gas check. 35 gr of H4350. CCI200 primer. 2.550" OAL. 1920 fps.

I am going to be loading some more today I believe so I might get some more testing done. I like the idea of using a slower powder like this for a few reasons even if it takes a few more grains. But I cannot say that I wont try other powders in the future. Its easier to come by than other powders though.

[newton]

Shot some today. I use the same gun for plinking as I do hunting, just moving the sight up and down. I thought I had remembered right where I had it set last year for my hunting loads (35gr H4350), but for some reason they just were not hitting right. So I had to sight the gun in again yesterday.

I'm not sure what to make of it, but it seemed to take more than what my scale said was 35 grains. I ended up just using a nice level Lee 2.5cc scoop, which is supposed to be 34.5 gr but weighed closer to 35.5 gr, and I am set to go for this season. I don't have the best scale so I don't put too much stock into it. The scoops give me a good repeatability and that's all I want for hunting. I was getting 1 1/2" - 2" groups with this load at 100 yards. It is very difficult with the peep to hold the same spot for some reason, maybe if I had a better target to line up on it would help(I was using a paper plate with a bright orange duct tape cross on it).

Regardless, I think I will keep it around for sure. I plan on going to a heavier bullet in the future and from the previous articles that were mentioned I think this powder would be the best for it.

[rmcc]

My 2 cents worth. Either IMR or H4350 are great powders. Their only limitation is having a case big enough to get enough of it in for "optimum" performance. Optimum performance here is low pressure/low velocity loads. On the "magnum" side, the 30/30 does not have enough case capacity. With 4350 powders, it seems fill a case with it, stick a bullet on it, and there is your load. Almost all max loads are compressed or drop tube filled, again talking magnum cases.

[mainiac]

some of the smallest groups my old 336-a, thutty-thutty,,was made with aa-3100 (4831 speed,even slower than 4350).

It can do 1900 f.p.s. with a 173 gr boolit as well.....

[Char-Gar]

A few years back I did some load testing with cast bullet in the 30-30 and WC872. It took a kicker charge of a few grains of 3031 to get a clean burn, but it did work and accuracy was pretty good. I don't know about the velocity.