Chambering problems

[CyberPirate]

Just got a set of lee dies for the 30-30 so i decided to load up some of my lee 170 grain flat nose boolits, the boolits were sized to .308 in a lee sizer, here is the problem. On the up stroke of the lever there is what i guess you call a hang up that was not there with factory ammo, it just feels diffrent, they shot fine, but it just doesnt feel like factory ammo, is this normal or what? Sorry forgot to mention, gun is a winchester model 94, sorry

Thank you for your time, im still learning

[John Boy]

On the up stroke of the lever there is what i guess you call a hang up that was not there with factory ammo, it just feels diffrent, What do you mean by ... 'it just feels different'?

[CyberPirate]

It stops, hangs up right before it fully closes. Then it takes a little extra bump to get it to go ahead and close

[Salmoneye]

Bullet nose is encountering the rifling...At least that is my guess...

Winnies and Marlins are not known for their generous throats...

In fact, I have seen a couple in both makes that have no throat at all...

[CyberPirate]

Would you think that was a problem?? Should i try to use sandpaper to get the boolit down to .307?

[Salmoneye]

Would you think that was a problem?? Should i try to use sandpaper to get the boolit down to .307?

No...

I am guessing that it is the part of the bullet that is sticking outside the case that is the issue...

If your case lengths are correct, and you are seating the bullet to it's correct depth (OAL for that load), then I would look at the bullet shape...

Sadly, the usual 'cure' is a different bullet...

What bullet are we talking about here?

[Sensai]

Chamber, then extract a round; with the muzzle in a safe direction of course. Look at the boolit and see if you have rifling impressions on the nose of the boolit and if the band right in front of the case looks shiny. First, if the round extracts without pulling the boolit out of the case you don't have a real problem. Second, if you have even rifling impressions all the way around the boolit and/or a shiny first band, you're golden. The properly fitted boolit will NOT feel the same as a jacketed round. The size and profile are both different for good reason. If you have slight to moderate rifling impressions evenly around the boolit then the boolit is fitting straight into the ball seat/rifling. If the front band is shiny it is pressing into the ball seat and forming a good gas seal. To tell you the truth, it sounds to me like you've lucked onto a near perfect fit. Congratulations!

[CyberPirate]

Well I really hope your right, it is not pulling the boolit out of the case, I will chamber one tonight and inspect it, as i said they shot fine, fired 5 of the 6 I made for a test run, no unsual leading I could see after the cleaning, Ill post tommrow and let you know what it looks like, OAL is right, checked it numerous times, crimped with a lee factory crimp die, boolit is a 170 grain lead flat nose lee, i dont have the number with me, ill get that tonight as well

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like what you feel is the crimping of the case mouth.

[CyberPirate]

Could be Char-Gar up until this weekend I have only shot factory ammo in the this gun, what im feeling could be normal, but I wanted to ask, just in case its not.

[M-Tecs]

One more option is if you are not adequately lubing your expander ball you could be pulling the shoulder of the case forward so you have a negative headspace on the shoulder. The 30/30 headspaces on the rim so it’s not normally an issue but it’s something to check. Just take a case that you have sized but not loaded and see how it chambers.

[CyberPirate]

Thanks M-Tecs, will look at that as well

[Muddydogs]

Couple questions that don't pertain to your problem.

Have you slugged your barrel to see what diameter it is? Just curious to know if its that small or your just shooting .308 bullets.

Are you casting the bullets yourself? What do yours weight with what alloy? I cast the same bullets with wheel weights and my bullets are dropping at 175 +- .5 grains.

[leeggen]

Is op talking about the lever on the rifle or the leveer on the press?? I think it is the rifle.

[fouronesix]

Chamber, then extract a round; with the muzzle in a safe direction of course. Look at the boolit and see if you have rifling impressions on the nose of the boolit and if the band right in front of the case looks shiny. First, if the round extracts without pulling the boolit out of the case you don't have a real problem. Second, if you have even rifling impressions all the way around the boolit and/or a shiny first band, you're golden. The properly fitted boolit will NOT feel the same as a jacketed round. The size and profile are both different for good reason. If you have slight to moderate rifling impressions evenly around the boolit then the boolit is fitting straight into the ball seat/rifling. If the front band is shiny it is pressing into the ball seat and forming a good gas seal. To tell you the truth, it sounds to me like you've lucked onto a near perfect fit. Congratulations!

CyberPirate,
Sensai is providing good guidance here. It may depend on if you want the ultimate in accuracy potential from your cast loads OR a slick feed into the chamber/full battery- like you notice when chambering a factory Jbullet round. Many times with cast bullets it may be a compromise between the two. If you are using previously fired brass then one other thing may be happening... and it is not uncommon in 30-30 lever guns. The case sizing die is not resizing the body of the case down to factory ammo specs. That too may not be all bad just something that you can feel when chambering and need to be aware of. Most lever actions don't have tremendous camming power as the bolt block is under friction near the top of the stroke, so any small interference when pushing the round into full battery is exaggerated- whether the bullet is engaging the throat/land area or the case body is a tad tight.

[CyberPirate]

Ok, chambered a round last night, the only mark was on the case, just past where its crimped in, i have not slugged the bore, I want to soon, but the actual boolit had no marks on it from being chambered, I am casting these myself, straight WW and am getting around the same results, i have not weighed one after sizing, but i am using the starting loads for those boolits out of the lee book, what im feeling could be a sizing issue or just pretty much normal?

[Sensai]

Alright, looks like your problem is related to case bulge caused by the crimping process. What kind of crimping die are you using? Are you crimping with the seating die or in a seperate operation? You may be able to solve it by using less crimp, or by crimping in a seperate stage.

I wasn't going to say anything about the boolit size because you stated in your original post that you were not getting any "unusual" leading, but .308 is usually not big enough for a 30-30. By the way, contrary to public opinion, any leading is unusual leading if the boolit fit is right. You'll know a lot more about what size you need after you slug the barrel.

[CyberPirate]

Ok, used the seating die, and then lee factory crimp, ive always read that lever guns need a firm crimp, so thats why i used the 3rd die, and looking at the barrel and my patches i did not notice any lead, but i suppose there could be, so ill try to slug the barrel this weekend.

[Sensai]

I don't know where to go from here then. Sounds like you're already doing everything that I would suggest. You might try easing up a little on the crimp, but if you're using the FCD collet style die it shouldn't cause bulging even with a firm crimp. As far as the size goes, I would slug the barrel just because I would want to know the data, but if you're not getting leading then they're not too small. I can say that I've never seen a too small boolit that didn't cause leading, but I haven't seen them all. Was the accuracy good?

[CyberPirate]

Didnt check, first cast boolits in the gun, was pretty much just firing at the ground, im kind of recoil senstive, always like to get a feel for the recoil before I settle on a load.

[fouronesix]

You can take a felt tip and mark the entire surface of a loaded round. Carefully chamber it and extract it. That will show best where the contact areas are. If there is a bright rub on the neck only, that is where the resistance is coming from. A tube mag 30-30 lever gun will require some crimp, but over crimping will cause problems and can actually reduce neck tension. Use the minimal crimp necessary to prevent the bullets (the loaded rounds sitting in the mag tube) from being set back during recoil. The Lee factory crimp die, properly adjusted, is about as good a crimping tool as there is.

If that is the issue.... look at how you are opening the case mouth up to insert a bullet when loading. A simple belling die like the Lee universal mouth flaring die is notorious for doing that- something like a Lyman M die for neck expansion and mouth flaring is a better tool. Sometimes you can over do mouth belling/flaring and swell a longer section of the case neck. Use only enough case mouth flare to start the bullet base without shaving lead from the bullet as it is seated. If you have the Lee factory crimp die, use only it. Back the bullet seating die out a little so the roll crimp shoulder in the die doesn't contact the case mouth. Then reset the bullet seating stem for your seating depth. The Lee FCD won't cause a bulge below the crimp area.

Tackle one issue at a time- check often- identify the real culprits and correct one at a time. There is even a solution for bulged necks caused by over crimping with a roll crimp shoulder. But, it's not time to jump to that conclusion/solution yet.

[Sensai]

Well, I guess accuracy was OK. Firing at the ground you hardly ever miss! The reason that I asked was that besides obvious leading, poor accuracy is a symptom of poor boolit fit.

[CyberPirate]

Alright ill do that tommorw and post the results fouonesix, Sensai, if i can get good weather this weekend ill try to check accuracy, thanks everyone for the help, maybe i did over do the crimp, ill check this weekend

[Salmoneye]

Sorry for sending you down the wrong path with the bullet shape...

I agree it sounds now more like case dimensions in one way or another (shoulder or bulge due to crimp)...

You said:

"Ok, chambered a round last night, the only mark was on the case, just past where its crimped in,"

Was the 'mark' a concentric ring all around the case, or more like a streak in one spot?

[CyberPirate]

concentric ring all the way around, not too noticeable but once i looked close it was there

[CyberPirate]

And hey no worries, about the wrong path, i dang sure dont know, lol

[fouronesix]

Hey, one issue ID'd at a time then solve that issue. No worries. If that is a bright, concentric, noticeable ring just below the crimp then it is likely a bulge from over crimping. No problem shooting then correcting/checking on the next reload. Back off the seating die a little, reset the seating stem and use only the Lee FCD. See if that works.

Depending on how many times you end up reloading this batch of brass, at some point you may start noticing a resistance-to-chambering again. That is normal and likely the case body itself swelling/work hardening and not shrinking back as much after firing. At that point you may want to go to another batch of brass or you can maybe get a few more firings out of it by setting the sizing die all the way down until it bottoms on the shell holder. Also, along the way, make sure to check and trim the cases to suggested "trim length". They do lengthen with each firing. That lengthening is at a cost. The cost being a thinning of the case wall just forward of the case head/web. Sooner or later that leads to case head separation- just something to think about as the cases near the end of their normal lifespan. Good luck

[CyberPirate]

Thanks very much, ill try that this weekend and let yall know, provided i get some good weather for shooting , thanks again.

[WILCO]

here is the problem. On the up stroke of the lever there is what i guess you call a hang up that was not there with factory ammo, it just feels diffrent, they shot fine, but it just doesnt feel like factory ammo, is this normal or what? Sorry forgot to mention, gun is a winchester model 94, sorry

Thank you for your time, im still learning

Hi CP! Welcome to the forums.

My best advice is to go back to square one and review what you're doing.
Several factors at play here and it sounds like it could be everything from setting up your dies to seating the bullet and over all length. Do you have a reloading manual?

[Muddydogs]

Loaded up some rounds last night with this same bullet and had a couple that would not enter the chamber all the way without closing the bolt. I looked at the bullet and could just see a couple small shinney spots where it must be touching the rifilling. This only happened with 3 out of 15, I figure the bullet is a little bigger maybe due to a hot mold or maybe one of my cavitys is a little larger and just by luck of the draw I only had 3 from that cavity. With 10 grains of Unique I didn't see any pressure sign or any other problems when shooting the last batch.

[WILCO]

Read post #29. Going forward without resolving this issue will get you into trouble fast.

[EDG]

Have you tried the most basic test? See if a sized case will chamber with no bullet.

If the sized case will not enter it is a sizing issue and has nothing to do with the bullet.

[popper]

Shim you seating die 1/4" up, then set oal & use the FCD. Sometimes the bell is too deep & the FCD won't get rid of all of it.