Any S&W Wheel Gunners out there?

[gcollins]

I didn't really know how to title my question? I have not worked on very many wheel guns, a few single action pistol's. I traded for a S&W Air weight for my wife. My wife is 4'11" 110lbs, she can pull the trigger but it is hard for her, I can pull the trigger but it takes 100% focus to control it! From what I can see in my book, the trigger spring is a H.D. coil spring that runs vertical in the grip area?
Can I order a lighter spring from some place ? If the spring I ID. was right?
I would be most great full for any and all help!
Greg

[Denver]

Yes there are lighter springs available. The mainspring as you mentioned as well as the rebound spring. Changing these to lighter springs will lighten the trigger pull to some degree, but there are other internal mods such as polishing the rebound slide that will also help smooth and lighten the trigger pull. Wolf springs as sold by Brownells are what I've used in several of my S&Ws as well as a few Ruger single actions. Replacing the springs and doing the smoothing and polishing of the internals is best done by someone with the knowledge and experience as well as the proper tools for working on these guns.

[Outpost75]

If she is carrying the revolver for defense, be sure to test fire not less than 100 rounds of her carry ammunition to ensure you get NO misfires in a 100 round sample. If you get ONE, repeat the test, another 100 rounds. If you get no more in 100 rounds the gun is OK. If you get another, change ammo and repeat.

J frames have marginal hammer throw and suffer from weak primer indent anyway. Installing after market springs to reduce DA trigger pull makes the situation worse. Better she start squeezing a tennis ball or get a grip strength developer and learn to use the gun with the factory springs.

[Walter Laich]

I replace my springs with Wolff or similar pretty much right off the bat. That and firing 500 rounds or so through the firearm to break it in works for me

[fourarmed]

Good advice, all. Lightening the rebound slide spring will reduce the trigger pull without reducing the hammer striking force. The only downside to that is a possibility of the trigger not returning, but that is rare. It takes a rough, dry slide and a very light spring. Lightening the hammer spring is something I would hesitate to do on a carry gun. I have handled some competition-tuned Smiths that had wonderful DA trigger pulls, but would only set off Federal primers, and sometimes not even them. Someone who knows what he's doing can polish parts to produce a very acceptable pull without altering or changing springs at all, but it is a time-consuming job.

[John Allen]

Another +1 for wolf springs. It really makes a difference. I also lightly polish the internal parts but you have to be careful when you do this.

[725]

As others have stated, a carry gun needs to be reliable. Don't tune it down just to make it easier at the range.

[Cosmiceyes]

Unless a S&W changed to a Ruger it has a "leaf" type spring.You get 3 different ones in a kit. There should be a screw in the front of the grip frame where the tension can be adjusted.You also have to back it away from the spring to change it out. Rugers have coil springs.Sounds like you need a trigger job by a competent "Gunsmith"! :)'s

[Cactus Farmer]

What model S&W? The K frames are flat springs and 6 shot 38 Specials. The J frames are 6 shot 32s/5 shot 38s. They have the coil hammer springs. wolf kits are almost foolproof. Polishing the inards are always good for slicking up the action. Then practice,practice,practice.
My wife carries a Model 36 3 inch. I carry a model 60 in 357 Mag. with a 2 1/8th inch tube. Both are J frame pistols. If I miss and they are close I will set 'em on fire. Either way, we will both be quite deaf!

[MtGun44]

+1 on fourarmed's comments.
Polish the rebound slide and frame area where it runs, use a lighter rebound
spring and use a SYNTHETIC grease on the rebound slide and you will
be pleased with the results and still have a reliable hammer fall.

Bill

[williamwaco]

Wolf makes good stuff. . .


http://www.gunsprings.com/

[Cosmiceyes]

What model S&W? The K frames are flat springs and 6 shot 38 Specials. The J frames are 6 shot 32s/5 shot 38s. They have the coil hammer springs. wolf kits are almost foolproof. Polishing the inards are always good for slicking up the action. Then practice,practice,practice.
My wife carries a Model 36 3 inch. I carry a model 60 in 357 Mag. with a 2 inch tube. Both are J frame pistols. If I miss and they are close I will set 'em on fire. Either way, we will both deaf.
I went an opened up my new S&W J,and found a coil spring. I have 8 old Military J frames that all have the leaf. Makes me laugh to have "not"known about the change! :)'s

[gcollins]

Hi Guys,
I want to thank all of you for the help! I googled S&W Air Weight and got a lot of U-Tube Vid's, but every one was showing how to do a Body Guard, as I read the internals are
the same?
Did a trigger job on my first 1911 in 73 and have done a boat load since then, with a lot of other models ect.
But I am VERY HAPPY for all the advice.
Thanks!
Greg

[KCSO]

An action job here in the shop runs $100 for a J frame Smith. This includes smooting all the rough machine marks in the side plate and frame honing the rebound and replacing and tuning the springs. Single action 2 pounds or more your choice and double at 10 pounds smooth with 100% reliability with factory ammo. I test with rifle primers. This is not an easy job and you really need to know what to smooth and how to do it to do the job right. I have a special set of stones for doing things like the hand channel in the frame. You MUST be very carefull NOT to ruin the case harding of the internal parts so you wil still see some machine marks in a polished part. It is awfull easy to go through the case and ruin a part so have spares.

[Cosmiceyes]

I went an opened up my new S&W J,and found a coil spring. I have 8 old Military J frames that all have the leaf. Makes me laugh to have "not"known about the change! :)'s
Well guess what I found out! Thanks Cactus Farmer for making me look this up.
.38 Regulation Police, a model that was introduced in 1917. The patent date impressed into the wood is for the patented way of mounting the larger wood RP stocks to the small steel frame underneath. If you take the stocks off, you will see that there is a long notch in the steel that answers a contour in the wood. That helps mount the oversize stocks securely on the small frame.
The Regulation Police models (which came in both .32 and .38 caliber) were built on the company's small I frame. The .38 does NOT chamber the .38 Special cartridge, but rather the shorter and somewhat less powerful .38 S&W cartridge. The .38 Regulation Police is sometimes referred to as a .38/32 Hand Ejector, meaning that it is a .38 caliber revolver built on the .32 caliber frame. "Hand Ejector" is the generic term for S&W guns with a swing-out cylinder.
The Prewar I-frame guns were the predecessors of the J-frame guns that are made today.

[TXGunNut]

$100 for a professional action job is money well spent. Knowing where and how to polish and knowing how to tune springs takes time and generally involves ruining a part or two. The hint above about the Airweight having a light hammer would make me think twice about Wolff springs. A good cleaning and firing a hundred rounds or so will help. A bit wider trigger may help as well.

[Love Life]

$100 for an action job is a good price. I've paid more than that before, but I had a couple of other things done.

[gcollins]

I am great full to all,! Yes, I have been down that road where a person is a head to have a pro do the job! I am one of those guys that if I do it my self I stay on the side of caution!
KC, are you in Kansas or Missouri? I have no plans on smoothing anything at this time, the only thing I might do would be put a set of Wilson springs in it? I am in the middle of rifle build's at this time, one of them I would working on for 18 months or so, my reason for being so slow on it was I needed to have the action drilled and tapped, I looked for a Gun Smith in the yellow pages (one of the biggest mistakes I ever made) I have never seen anything like it,so I put it on hold.
Thanks again!
Greg

[bobthenailer]

Try the R/P spring kits I have them in all of MY S&W handguns J,K,L & N frames for less than $20.00 and 15 min time to install them why not ?

[gcollins]

Bob,
That is exactly what I am planning on doing. Has anyone used the Wilson springs?
Greg

[Outpost75]

Unless a S&W changed to a Ruger it has a "leaf" type spring.You get 3 different ones in a kit. There should be a screw in the front of the grip frame where the tension can be adjusted.You also have to back it away from the spring to change it out. Rugers have coil springs.Sounds like you need a trigger job by a competent "Gunsmith"! :)'s

Current J-frames are all coil spring and have been since the 1980s.

[Whiterabbit]

$100 for a professional action job is money well spent. Knowing where and how to polish and knowing how to tune springs takes time and generally involves ruining a part or two. The hint above about the Airweight having a light hammer would make me think twice about Wolff springs. A good cleaning and firing a hundred rounds or so will help. A bit wider trigger may help as well.

not when the professional is a hack. Make sure your guy is good! Spending on top of that $100 for a manual, loupe, and set of great stones so you can fix what the butcher did just means a wasted $100 when you realize that 1911 "I can screw parts onto this" gunsmith, that "...yeah, of course I can work on single actions! (how hard can it be?)" gunsmith... might not know how to work the trigger of any revolver.

[bobthenailer]

Bob,
That is exactly what I am planning on doing. Has anyone used the Wilson springs?
Greg

I have used more Wilson RP spring kits than Wollfs, both work great !

[andremajic]

Kuhnhausens books strongly recommends using altered s&w springs instead of aftermarket ones, but I doubt that wolf springs were available back when he wrote his book. He advocates trimming half a link off the rebound spring at a time, with the finished spring not having less than 17 turns. I really dislike the idea of clipping springs, as most have ground ends to make them flat on each side.

I found an easier, more professional way to lighten a coil spring without "clipping" it.

Slip the spring over a punch that fits the inside diameter tightly. This gives you a nice "handle" to hold the spring with while you work on it.
Take your spring over to a whetstone, and while rotating the spring, evenly stroke the outside diameter to slowly remove some of the outside bulk of the spring. Periodically take the spring off the punch and reinstall it in the gun, testing the trigger pull.

You can use different grits of wet/dry sandpaper over a granite stone if you don't have the correct stones for this job.

You can easily take a pound off the pull by doing this. The spring stays the same length as well. The reason I like this method is that it SLOWLY weakens the spring instead of instantly taking too much off if you were to clip it. Once too much material is clipped off, the spring is usually trash.

This method works well for all coiled springs. 400 grit is about the coarsest I'd use for this job.

Make sure if you're polishing the rebound and the frame that you just slick it up with a 600-800 grit stone. You don't need to eliminate all the machine marks and make it like a perfect mirror. The machine marks actually hold oil and are good to have, as long as the major peaks are stoned smooth.

Hope this helps you out.

[andremajic]

Another tip for you if you're going to be installing and taking out the rebound spring is to make yourself this tool from 2 old screwdrivers. It makes installing the rebound a breeze. (No need to spend big bucks at brownells for something you can make yourself, and you can use it the same day you make it!)

Watch the video to get the idea of how it needs to be ground. http://www.gunsmithertools.com/smithmaster-trigger-spring-/

After removing and reinstalling a trigger rebound 20 or 30 times in a row, you'll be pretty glad you made this!

[gcollins]

Hi Guys,
I got my springs and installed the hammer spring and it sure made a big difference!!!! So here we go:
How much more will it help if I change the rebound spring ?
G
Thanks for all the advice you guys have gave me!

[andremajic]

The smiths have a very nice single action trigger pull really doesn't need much improvement.

Changing out the rebound spring helps reduce the double action trigger pull weight.

Andy

[Hardcast416taylor]

If you want to make a revolver unreliable for firing. Start by cutting off a coil or 2 on the coil main springs and try to put a larger bend in the leaf spring or worse yet grind it down to have more spring to it and less stiffness. I`ve seen all the above "lightening" jobs on S&W revolvers when I ran the PPC section of our gunclub for 10 years. Invest in a decent brand name spring kit to start with. Have a qualified person install them if you`re not certain. Federal ammo tends to have a more sensitive priming system than other brands.Robert

[Tazman1602]

If you want to make a revolver unreliable for firing. Start by cutting off a coil or 2 on the coil main springs and try to put a larger bend in the leaf spring or worse yet grind it down to have more spring to it and less stiffness. I`ve seen all the above "lightening" jobs on S&W revolvers when I ran the PPC section of our gunclub for 10 years. Invest in a decent brand name spring kit to start with. Have a qualified person install them if you`re not certain. Federal ammo tends to have a more sensitive priming system than other brands.Robert


What Bob said. Go to www.gunsprings.com and call Wolff and talk to them. Most reliable gunsprings I"ve ever used in revolvers and no screwing around. I have never had a Wolff spring come from the box bad and their advice is priceless.

Art

[Char-Gar]

I am a half century deep into Smith and Wesson sixguns and have polished parts , chopped coils off springs, ground down flat springs and the like before "spring kits" came on the market. First came the Trapper springs, then the Wolfe and now I have lost track of how many their are. Here is what I have learned;

1. Smith and Wesson pretty much know what they are doing with springs.
2. Springs will lose their strength over time and get easier to use, so Smith builds then for long service life. They will be pretty stiff at the start, but become more manageable with time and use.
3. When folks try and lighten up factory springs, they are trying to put artificial wear on these parts and get them to the point they would be after the firearm is well used and broken in.
4. When you change out springs to lighten things up, please realize these also will wear and one day you will wake up and they might not have enough oomph to pop the cap.
5. No. 4 above might be a life or death issue with a pistol intended for social purposes.
6. I no longer jack with the springs, preferring just to use the handgun and let nature take its course and in due time, things will get better. I have had modified springs and after market springs fail me. I have also had some that did not fail me, but I can never trust them with my life.

Bottom line, is I have no problem with you changing out the springs to help your wife handled the sixgun better, but please bear in mind No. 4 and 5 above. Keep a good eye on those springs as over time, they might fail you when needed.

[Char-Gar]

Current J-frames are all coil spring and have been since the 1980s.

The Smith and Wesson J frame started with the Chief Special (now Model 36) in the early 50s and they always had coil springs. In fact, I believe all J frames have all had coil springs. The small frame precursor models were "I" frames and they had leaf springs. The I and J are very, very close, but there are some differences, with the coil spring being one of them.

For the reasons you stated in your other post, these coil springs can be the "spring from hell". I have done all manner of modification but am very aware this extra power may be needed and no longer jack with the springs on any J frame I keep for social purposes. I only have one now and it still have the factory spring in it. It is a 1957 vintage 3" Chief's Special and it has a coil main spring.

For reference, I also include a pic of one of the older "I" frames, a 32Hand Ejector from the late 1930s. They are neat little pistols, but not a reed upon which I would want to prop my life.

[gcollins]

Char-Gar,
I am great full for the advice! I would never send my wife out with a gun that had a chance of failure to fire! Been working on my own guns for well over 30 years, but I never get tired of hearing about the working on guns! I would never do anything that I didn't know I could do! Here last month, I traded for a Sig P938, when I got home I had to take a peek to see if I could do a trigger job on it! It looks like a small 1911, I
got a real eye opener when I got the first grip off, it didn't take long to get it back on!
Trigger pull is just good!
G

[jmort]

My wife has a 640 and the trigger was north of 12 pounds stock. The gun smith at the LGS clipped the mainspring and it is down to around 10 pounds. So far, no misfires. He seemed confident in the "fix" but I'm not so sure. Regardless, out of the box, that $900 gun had a horrible trigger. Now my .357 LCR has a great out of the box trigger and my 637 was not so bad.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar,
I am great full for the advice! I would never send my wife out with a gun that had a chance of failure to fire! Been working on my own guns for well over 30 years, but I never get tired of hearing about the working on guns! I would never do anything that I didn't know I could do! Here last month, I traded for a Sig P938, when I got home I had to take a peek to see if I could do a trigger job on it! It looks like a small 1911, I
got a real eye opener when I got the first grip off, it didn't take long to get it back on!
Trigger pull is just good!
G

Your wife's handgun will fire just fine and probably will for a long time, but one day it won't. That is why I quit jacking with springs and have replaced every Smith and Wesson in the house (at least 50) with good factory springs.

I have had Smith and Wesson DA sixguns go tens of thousands of rounds with springs I messed with. Then one day, I pick it up and there is a click instead of a boom. That is fine if you are shooting paper, beer cans or clods, but not so fine if your life is on the line. "To soon old and to late smart"

I am still shooting a couple of hundred year old Smith and Wesson Hand Ejectors with the original factory springs and they are still reliable. I don't use these for social purposes, but if I did, I would put fresh springs in. One hundred years is good service life, but "One never knows, do one?"...Fats Waller

I am now 71 years old, and standing here in the waters of calm reflection, I hold the opinion if a defensive handgun needs work right out of the box, go buy one that does not.

[KCSO]

Since I do action jobs on S and W revolvers on a frequent basis I will throw in some nformation for what it is worth.

#1 Jerry M and Ed McGivern both shoot unmodified revolvers for speed shooting for a reason. Ultimate reliability!

Nw if you simply can't manage the trigger in a J frame there are options and there are downsides. The coil hamer spring on a typical J frame is made to set off any ammo any time in any weather. A gun that works fine at 70 degrees might not work so well at -20 so make sure you take the worst case senario into account. In any case do not put in any spring that will not set off a small rifle primer. You can usually drop about 4 pounds off the stock hammer spring and get by. IF you reduce the rebound spring don't go below 13-14 pounds as you will have reset problems especially in stress situations. The main thing you need to do with the newer smiths is to lap everything square and polish the surfaces. Polish not grine hone ect! Smooth will make the biggest difference. Do NOT POLISH any sear or hammer surfaces with a dremel, work by hand or with proper stones and do not cut through the case. You wil NOT remove all machine marks but you will smooth the surfaces that articulate.

THEN get a grip master hand squeeze and man up your hands the more you can squeeze the better you can shoot.

[gcollins]

KC, I am also great full for the advice. Jmor, my Smith is a 640 also, I don't know because the 640's are small and I love the looks of those grips, that might be some of the Problem???? I am not a DA wheel gun shooter and no offense to you all that love them, and
would never shoot 1 of those===== auto's!! I have never been a
wheel gun shooter, I have weak wrist's. and that is one of the problems!!! The only other DASA wheel gun I own is a Smith & Wesson Model M681-1 with a 4" barrel, this WG came from a fair size
Police Department (Back when they did that) the double action trigger
pull is 3-5 pounds, and the single action, let's just say it should not be
shot single action (a half pound at the most) I need to get a digital gauge, but I keep using my old Lyman, if you can get the L shape arm on the trigger, the pull is to light to register!!
Thanks so much guys!
G

[Char-Gar]

I am a DA sixgun man from the headwaters as you can tell by my posts. But I carry a Glock 19 and keep a Glock 17 and an Uzi carbine by my bed. When things get serious only serious guns need apply for the position.

[gcollins]

Ch,
I understand! Ever since I was 18 years old, I have wanted to own a papered Class 3 weapon! This will just tell you how things have went most of my life, NOT ALL!! Back when I was 18 you could not own a registered class 3! Back then you could buy a Mac 10 select fire, with 3- 30-32
rd. mags, $1100.00 high side to $750.00 on the low! But, a year or so after I got hurt we passed a law for C.C. and also Legal Machine Guns(more like sub gun) Class 3 Weapon register on a $200.00 stamp. Back in 1973 , In 6 months I could of stashed a $1200.00 and hope I could of found one of the $800.00 ones!! Then I would have all the money it would take for the tax stamp, and transfer fee's (and I am talking about back then)I have no idea why I spent the money to get my CC permit, I have not been 5 places since I could carry legal, for I have packed a 1911 since 1973. Since all my shooting friends have moved a way, if I go out to shoot, I go with myself.
Now if I am going to shoot, to see how a hand gun is shooting, or how well I like what ever I have been shooting! So Ch, I have a gun or 6 were I can grab and take care of business !
Later
G