Groups going bad after 25 yds, so bad it's embarassing

[Alan in Vermont]

I've been trying to do a little practice to get ready to shoot a PPC match of three. I'm waaaaay out of shape compared to when I was shooting PPC 30ish years ago. Best I ever shot was 1424 with a stock, except for some tuning, 4" Security-Six.

Load so far has been the Lee 105 gr SWC over 2.7 grs Bullseye. I bought that mold last year, when my lead supply was down and I wasn't sure how successful I would be getting the stash built up.

Shooting on the B-27 target at 25 yds I'm getting groups that stay in the 9 ring, heavy in the 10, offhand, shooting double action. The group might have 75 rds fired into it. I can live with that

At 50 yds. things really go bad. I don't remember the size of the target but 45" x 32" comes to mind. 75 rds. again but the resulting pattern(no way I can all it a group)is spread all over the target with about 30% of the rounds fired not even being on the paper. I would expect the 50 yd groups to be slightly more than twice the size of the 25 yd ones but this is ridiculous.

I've got the Lee 357-140-SWC and Lyman 358429 I could play with as well. I'm sure I can make something shoot but I'd like to know what is making the little Lee spread out like a trombone in that extra 25 yds.

[fecmech]

Unless things have changed the 50 yd stage could be fired single or double action. You are probably "pumping" your double action instead of coming straight back on the trigger. If you can't get it sorted out by match time I'd shoot that stage single action.

[Alan in Vermont]

Unless things have changed the 50 yd stage could be fired single or double action. You are probably "pumping" your double action instead of coming straight back on the trigger. If you can't get it sorted out by match time I'd shoot that stage single action.

I've got a silicone pad on the back of the trigger which I can feel just before DA letoff, works great but the side-effect is that it makes an impossibly hard SA pull so I shoot everything DA.

In light of the fact that the 50 yd groups are easily five time those at 25, and that I am pretty darn good at calling my shots and I'm not calling that many and not that far out I would tend to disagree. It's the fact that the groups are opening in a lot more than just a linear fashion, doubling the range is giving me 5-6 times the group size. I would put it down to the boolits losing stability but I'm not seeing any sign of keyholing at 50. Granted the boolits re not much longer than they are wide but if they were tubming I should be able to see some sort of out-of-round impacts on the target.

[fecmech]

I would put it down to the boolits losing stability but I'm not seeing any sign of keyholing at 50.
Easy enough to find out, shoot off a bench at 50 yds.

[Scharfschuetze]

Yikes. I haven't shot in a PPC match since I finished my police career and that's been... well, a long time ago.

With your previous scores and current groups at 25 yards as an indicator of your innate shooting skill, I'd try some Hornady or Speer swaged wadcutters of 148 grains or 158 grain cast SWCs. At 50 yards, they may group better than the very light for calibre bullet that you are now shooting. While not personally cast, the swaged wadcutters (either HB or BB) are about as good as it gets for uniformity and I averaged in the 1480s for several years on the PPC course with these over 3.0 grains of Bullseye.

The suggestion to test the loads over a bench at 50 yards (if possible) is certainly a good one. It should demonstrate quickly the better boolit between the light 105 grain and the heavier bullets at 50 yards.

As an aside, I shot all stages of the PPC course double action.

Good luck at the match!

[9.3X62AL]

I'm inclined to think that your 105 grain boolits don't mesh well with your revolver. I know that a shorter bullet SHOULD stabilize better in a given rifling twist than does a longer one, but I have never had the sort of accuracy with 110-125 grain J-words that I get from jacketed or cast bullets weighing 140 grains-plus. My theory--which is worth exactly what you paid for it :) --is that the longer 140+ grain 38 caliber boolits/bullets are a lot more likely to be fully engraved & engaged into the forcing cone and rifling origin prior to the bullet base's release from the throat than are the short/stubby 110-125 grain bullets. Accordingly, the longer/heavier bullets enter the barrel straighter and perhaps less deformed than would a shorter bullet that may shift alignment as it enters the forcing cone, and gets a screwy start.

If you have some #358429s or some 148 grain wadcutters available, give those a range day and see if results improve. I would bet some folding money that the heavier bullets will do better work downrange.

Set those 105 grain critters aside for a 380 ACP or 9mm. JMHO.

[dubber123]

You might try shoving them along a little faster. I have always had better luck with hotter loads once range got past 25 yds.

[gray wolf]

Easy enough to find out, shoot off a bench at 50 yds.

[44MAG#1]

Understand the conservation of supplies but why would one shoot such a piddling piece of lead to shoot a match with. I am almost certain beyond a reasonable doubt that a heavier bullet would do better.
I am conservative too but if I were going to shoot a match I would use a known good load at the farthest I would be shooting.
Now if a heavier bullet load that was known to deliver the goods didn't do it I would be looking at myself as the weakest link to the accuracy equation.
Practice=conservative, match=non-conservative. I can look bad enough on my own without adding any more to add to my looking bad. Don't know about you though.

[HeavyMetal]

I will suggest weighing these 105 Lee's and see if you have a serious weight "spread".

Then a very strong magnifiying glass for a visual check to make sure they are filled out correctly with particular care to examine the boolit base for "square".

Then we load and go to the range for testing. Might be a good idea to have a small portable loading set up and try to tune a load at the range. I have done this with some success and makes for an interesting and enlighting day.

Don't be surprised if the little 105's don't do well past 30 yards, PPC is about the score and if lite boolits generated good accuracy with less recoil they would be the boolit of choice for PPC champs all over the place.

Depending on how serious you are about score will, of course, determine your next course of action with a boolit type.

I will point out that Mihec has sold several group buys on a multi cavity Hollow base wadcutter mold for the 38 special. I have one and it is awesome and my S&W model 52 finally shoots one hole groups with it, wish I could do the same,LOL!

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot a lot of the 105 swc out of my own 5" M15 I used to shoot a lot of PPC with. At 2.7 gr BE you aren't pushing them fast enough to hold accuracy past 25 yards. I never did well with them until around 4+ gr BE. Suggest you try some at 3.5, 4 and 4.5 gr BE at 50 yards.

Or try the 2 heavier bullets over 2.7 to 3.5 gr BE for the 50 yard load.

Larry Gibson

[Alan in Vermont]

If I could find any that I could afford I would be shooting swaged WCs.

When I bought the 105 mold I was thinking along the lines of cheap shooting, nothing serious, just fun shooting to get myself back in shape. My 25 yd and under groups are not far off from what I was shooting 30 yrs ago.



Don't be surprised if the little 105's don't do well past 30 yards, PPC is about the score and if lite boolits generated good accuracy with less recoil they would be the boolit of choice for PPC champs all over the place.

That's pretty much what I'm starting to accept. If the groups were expanding in linear fashion I'd be happy with them but this wild scattering just isn't going to cut it.

Seems like I remember reading an article in either American Rifleman or Handloader (back when it was worth buying) that dealt with accuracy of cast vs swaged WCs and it pretty much worked out that the best cast came up short against swaged as far as accuracy goes. I haven't looked everywhere for swaged WCs yet, or in the past couple months, but there just didn't seem to be any available back in May/June. I've got a 4 hole Lyman WC mold here but I just can't manage that heavy block with one arm impaired.

[Alan in Vermont]

I've shot a lot of the 105 swc out of my own 5" M15 I used to shoot a lot of PPC with. At 2.7 gr BE you aren't pushing them fast enough to hold accuracy past 25 yards. I never did well with them until around 4+ gr BE. Suggest you try some at 3.5, 4 and 4.5 gr BE at 50 yards.

Or try the 2 heavier bullets over 2.7 to 3.5 gr BE for the 50 yard load.

Larry Gibson

Thank you, Larry, I will try some of those loads.

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?83154-Lee-105-SWC-38-357-Mold
Ben wrote

You can see that my rifle really likes the 105 SWC, sized to .3585 ".
This is a group fired with Russian Unique at 50 yards with my Marlin 1894 CBC ,
my particular rifle has Ballard style rifling, not micro- groove rifling :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0001-47.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105996-Lee-105-SWC-load-data

I've used this boolit in 9mm and gotten better groups than your getting, So I'm going with the push 'em faster camp.

[HeavyMetal]

Alan;
I remember reading the article. it was in Handloader but the number escapes me at the moment but I believe the accuracy test was won by a swaged hollow base wadcutter.

The writer did not use any cast HBWC's because you could only by single cavity lyman molds at the time to cast any!

Way to much work for a gun writer, or serious competitor for that matter, to consider seriously so the swaged hollow base wadcutter was the serious tool for any kind of bullseye work.

Fast forward to the new century and we have guys like Eric at Hollowpoint mold and Miha of Mehic fame creating multi cavity molds that are made of aluminum and capable of great X ring grade HWBW cast boolits.

Foe those who have not had a chance to visit Eric's web site recently, he has been making Lee 6 cavity molds into HP conversions, his site has a picture of a Lee 125 2R doing 6 HP's at a crack!

I'm sure he could do wadcutters as well, Mehic has had several GB's on a site designed HBWC as well, but not sure about the weight factor.

If your mold is to heavy Eric is also suppling Lee two cavity molds, the new style, with HP set ups. MIght be worth a call to see if he'd do a Lee Wadcutter as an HBWC and he does do a little horse trading with used molds, perhaps a small swap could be arranged?

Heck all he can say is no,LOL!

[pergoman]

I push my Lee 105 SWC's with 4.6 Bullseye. They are lubed with Tac #1 from Randy Rat. They chronoed at 1050 fps from a 6" 686 and groups hold up very well at the long line.

[fecmech]

Did a test a few years back with Remington HBWC's versus H&G #50 out of my K-38 at 50 yds off the bench. Shot 4 six shot groups with each bullet. The HBWC's outshot the H&G #50's but not by much. Average of 4 groups with HBWC was 2" and the H&G's were 2.5" @ 50 yds. About all they might do would be lower you X ring count by one or 2 if you were that good. On a B27 target you certainly could not blame any 9 ring hits on the bullet.

[smkummer]

Just shot a cowboy match with 2.8 grains of bullseye behind a 9mm 125 lead bullet. It was about minimum as some were sounding weak from not expanding the case enough. Next time, I will seat the bullet deeper, size to .358 and use wadcutter brass so it expands better and I believe all the ammo will make a nice bang. Your same load behind a 105 bullet probably makes the cases sooty from not enough pressure to expand them and longer range acc. will be effected. 2.8 grains bullseye used to be the standard mid-range (also meaning low power) 148 wadcutter match load. These are comfortable out of my 2 in. alloy 38 revolvers.

[bhn22]

Midway has Remington HBWC available if all else fails. A box of them would be cheaper than a new mold, unless you want Lee. Personally, it sounds like the 105s are running out of steam at longer ranges, and that a little more power might fix the situation. 2.7 gr is really minimal for such a light bullet.

[L Ross]

I started experimenting with the Lee 105 many years ago for a reduced range handgun silhouette in a 357 mag Contender with a 10" barrel and a scope. It would group right at 2" center to center at 100yds with an amount of Bullseye I won't reveal. The load came from a Lyman manual and was extrapolated from 110 gr. jacketed data so I wasn't just pulling it out of my back pocket. Some of the other shooters bought the Lee mould after seeing my results and trying my Contender for themselves. If you missed a ram at 100 it wasn't the ammo's fault. The alloy was straight lino as back then it was cheap and readily available.

Duke