Avoiding damage to guns when using home made swaged bullets?

[squished]

Hi all,

I have a quick question about avoiding any possible side effects to guns you're shooting home-swaged bullets through. I reload, but don't cast and figure that if the swaged bullets are as clean as possible and are made to the proper size and weight and loaded to spec, there are really no major issues. Is that correct?

ETA: I'm not trying to imply that swaged bullets are somehow "bad."

Aside from cleaning, are there other ways to avoid contaminants that may affect your barrel? I'm thinking sand and other abrasives.

Also, the jackets for .224 bullets made from .22LR cases seem thin. I think I read 0.001-0.0012" or so. What's the best way to make sure they maintain integrity while traveling down and out of the barrel?

Also, is there a reference source I should be reading online?

Thanks!

[Hickory]

Your concerns are unfounded.
I have made and shot these bullets for over 30 years,
I have had no problems with "gun damage"

[squished]

I thought as much. I didn't mean to imply that swaged bullets were inherently "bad." Just wondering what precautions people are taking.

[PbHurler]

Not picking up a lubed jacket after you've run your hands through a sand box, or planted flowers & not washed your hands afterwards will help to keep your dies in good shape.
:kidding:

Just maintain clean components & clean hands when actually performing the swaging.
Clean your finished bullets to remove all swaging lube & dry them. You can tumble them to put a shine on 'em if you'd like, the big guys do. (I do this, then will roll them in a towel to remove any dust afterwards)

There's really not much more to it than that.

[Sasquatch-1]

At the cost of the dies I make sure the brass is free of contaminates before using. Usually a good wiping down before inserting in die.

I think there is actually more contaminates on my cast and lubed bullets then the jacketed ones.

[squished]

Not picking up a lubed jacket after you've run your hands through a sand box, or planted flowers & not washed your hands afterwards will help to keep your dies in good shape.
:kidding:


LOL!

Much appreciated!

[DukeInFlorida]

Allow me to also chime in...........

I shoot a lot. I've been told that I shoot more than any other five shooters, together. Why? First of all, because I LOVE shooting. Secondly, because I can. I realized over 40 years ago that the ONLY way that I was going to be able to afford to shoot as much as I wanted to was to RELOAD.

In all the years I have been reloading, I have always taken great care to keep bullets CLEAN of sand, dust, etc. Sand and dust are particularly hard on reloading tools, especially the full length resizing die, which is the first die in all reloading sets. If you scratch a full length resizing die, it is forever scratched, and that scratch will transfer a mark to every piece of brass from then on. It's the reason we CLEAN (and polish) the brass prior to sending it into the sizing die (and the other reloading dies.) I also make great pains to keep the loaded ammunition clean and shiny. I cringed the other day at the range when another fellow dropped some rounds into the dirt, picked them up, and ran them through his gun without making any effort to clean the dust and sand off. "Euw, that's gonna leave a mark!"

Similarly, all of the metal that I cast with has to pass my own stringent test for cleanliness. I spend more time fluxing my casting alloys than anyone else I know. Over time, those little grey specks that you miss will eat up your barrel.

Likewise, I am very careful when preparing my swaged bullets, no matter the size. Everything has to be clean and shiny before they go into the swage dies. I know from the reloading experience that any scratches will forever transfer to the bullets.

So, that's my take on cleanliness and safety in shooting castings and swaged bullets in guns. BTW, did you know that all commercial jacketed bullets are made the same way we make our swaged bullets? They just have more options for features and details they build into the bullets, including the ability for some of them to make jackets from scratch. Most of us in the hobby swaging area have to rely on donor brass for jackets.

I'm surprised that you didn't ask about the use of brass, and the safety of brass in a barrel. That one comes up frequently. MOst of the commercial jacketed bullet manufacturers make jackets from "guilding metal", which is a slightly different combination of zinc and copper. The 70-30 brass alloy we use (most donor brass is what is called, "cartridge brass") is also a combination of zinc and copper. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

There isn't a single place that I know of to learn EVERYTHING about swaging. But............ This swaging section of the cast boolits forum is a VERY detailed compendium of knowledge on the subject. I would urge you to go back to the oldest posting, and start reading forward. Yep, it might take you a few weeks of solid reading. But when you get to the newest posts, including your own, you will be somewhat of an expert on this subject. There's a lot of knowledge here.

Oh, and............... welcome to the swaging hobby!

[fredj338]

Also, the jackets for .224 bullets made from .22LR cases seem thin. I think I read 0.001-0.0012" or so. What's the best way to make sure they maintain integrity while traveling down and out of the barrel?

Also, is there a reference source I should be reading online?

Thanks!
I have swaged my first bullets but have yet to shoot them. I am not sure where you got your info n jackete thickness, but 0.001" is thinner than a human hair, so 22lr jackets are quite a bit thicker than that. Brass alloy jackets are not new, several manuf today, MontanaGold, use such alloy. I feel the annealing has a lot to do with how the jackets will perform. The only way I can see a jacket coming apart is if there is a flaw in it during the forming. That BTW, is not unlike a commercial bullet. We'll see but I have high hopes after listening to the swage masters hear.

[Reload3006]

the only thing against 22lr jacketed boolits is they arent as accurate but are Minuet of Critter even the worst boolits I have swaged out of 22lr brass have been in 2 moa area that seems like a lot when the same dies using sierra and j4 jackets give me .25 moa ... still great can hoppers and I bet you will not get any complaints from a critter should you decide to dispatch him with a rimfire jacketed bullet.

FYI they average about .010 thickness

[303british.com]

Hi all,

I have a quick question about avoiding any possible side effects to guns you're shooting home-swaged bullets through. I reload, but don't cast and figure that if the swaged bullets are as clean as possible and are made to the proper size and weight and loaded to spec, there are really no major issues. Is that correct?

Hi. I'm curious where you heard that home swaged bullets would be dirtier than commercial ones. Whoever told you that, or wherever you read that, is wrong. Every person that I know who swages, cleans their brass before using it - just like the big companies do. There are no major issues with swaging - apart fromsaving a lot of money, but only if you shoot several thousand 224 bullets a year.


ETA: I'm not trying to imply that swaged bullets are somehow "bad."

Aside from cleaning, are there other ways to avoid contaminants that may affect your barrel? I'm thinking sand and other abrasives.

There are NO special steps required to keep contaminates out of your barrel. You treat home swaged bullets like commercially made ones, with the proviso that you keep the velocity under 3000 to 3200 fps. That leads to the next part of your questions.


Also, the jackets for .224 bullets made from .22LR cases seem thin. I think I read 0.001-0.0012" or so. What's the best way to make sure they maintain integrity while traveling down and out of the barrel?

Also, is there a reference source I should be reading online?

Thanks!

Rimfire brass is typically 0.010 to 0.012 inches thick, with no taper, as you reach the base. Because there isn't as much jacket as commercially produced bullets, it is possible that the bullets will come apart (AFTER they leave the barrel). This can result from any of these things, or in combination.

- The jacket cannot take the stress because of the velocity (in excess of 3000 to 3200 fps)
- The twist rate is too fast, and causes the bullet to literally spin apart.
- The rifling has sharp edges which slices into the thin jacket and weakens it to the point where it comes apart.

These bullets are perfect for 22 Hornets, 22 AI Hornets, 222 or 223 Rems and others. You have to watch the velocities if reloading for a 22-250, 220 Swift, etc.

www.swage.com - this is Dave Corbin's site - has pdf files that you can download. It's the book "Rediscover Swaging".

Have fun!

[DukeInFlorida]

Yes, which is why we always have to be careful and ask:

WHAT will you intend to do with the bullets?

If you're intending on shooting for big cash prizes in world class long distance shoots, do NOT use .22 LR cases as jackets. BUY the very expensive J4 jackets, and use the very best swaging dies (approx $2500) from Mr. Dench, etc, and please make them on very expensive zero tolerance type swaging presses.

IF, on the other hand, you are merely looking for cheap plinking ammo, something that you and your buddies can shoot all day long at your local club at 100 yards or so, or at 720 rounds a minute at closer spray and pray distances, then 22 LR jackets make perfect sense. And, swaging them on $500 BT Sniper dies is an awesome way to go. And, swaging them on a converted RCBS RockChucker press makes economic sense.

So, answer the WAT will I use them for question first, nd allow that you take you in your proper direction.
In all instances, keep the brass (J4 jackets or .22 LR brass) clean, keep the die clean, and keep the resultant swaged bullets clean.


the only thing against 22lr jacketed boolits is they arent as accurate but are Minuet of Critter even the worst boolits I have swaged out of 22lr brass have been in 2 moa area that seems like a lot when the same dies using sierra and j4 jackets give me .25 moa ... still great can hoppers and I bet you will not get any complaints from a critter should you decide to dispatch him with a rimfire jacketed bullet.

FYI they average about .010 thickness

[fredj338]

Hi. I'm curious where you heard that home swaged bullets would be dirtier than commercial ones. Whoever told you that, or wherever you read that, is wrong. Every person that I know who swages, cleans their brass before using it - just like the big companies do. There are no major issues with swaging - apart fromsaving a lot of money, but only if you shoot several thousand 224 bullets a year.

Have fun!
I don't think it needs to even be that many. I doubt I shoot 2K a year un 223, so at current plinker bullet process, I will pay of my set in 4yrs or so. If the price goes up, likely, or I shoot more, then the payoff is sooner.

[303british.com]

Everyone shoots different amounts. If you were to buy 224 hunting bullets in bulk, you should be able to get them for $100/500. Plinking bullets aren't much less than that.

Dies cost about $800. A de-rimming die costs about $150, but Corbins sells a kit for $800. A core mold is included in the price. If you want to use lead wire, it will cost another $200 for the CS die. This assumes that you have a Rockchucker or similar press.

The cheapest you'll get away with is about $900. You can buy at least 4,000 bullets for that.

This is why I said you'll have to shoot several thousand a year to make it worth your while. Now, if you're doing it for fun as well, cost wouldn't enter into it. :)

[squished]

Y'all raise some good points. I certainly have some reading to do and will get started. I guess you could say my goal is to shoot more with less. As I mentioned in another thread, I reload and I enjoy it as much as I do shooting. Swaging is one step more for me, producing bullets that will work in my AR, having fun and experimenting.

As to the jacket thickness, I may have misread by a factor of 10. As to the dirt question, I suppose it's like anything else - as clean as I make it. I try to keep my reloaded ammo as clean as possible, so it shouldn't be much effort to do the same if I pull the trigger (pardon the pun) on swaging gear.

[customcutter]

I don't think it needs to even be that many. I doubt I shoot 2K a year un 223, so at current plinker bullet process, I will pay of my set in 4yrs or so. If the price goes up, likely, or I shoot more, then the payoff is sooner.

Or, if you can't find them at all. PRICELESS!!!

[fredj338]

Or, if you can't find them at all. PRICELESS!!!

Well exactly. I placed my order in Aug last year. After Jan this, year, it was looking like a really smart move. Now that I have made some shootable bullets, easire than it looks, it seems smarter still. I may never shoot enough of them to get my $$ back, but piece of mind is worth something as well as the I made that factor satisfaction.

[Sasquatch-1]

I would like to add the range fun factor. Take several of your slugs to the range with you and show them off. My club set up a steel plate range this year and I constantly see people looking at the little range stars that my 44's leave. They will pick them up and start scratching their head. I will then approach them and explain what they are. I keep a few in my range bag to show people. You won't believe the people who think they are loaded rounds after I explain what they are.

[DukeInFlorida]

Ditto. I love showing people my swaged bullets, and have allowed quite a few people to shoot them. It's only when they dump the brass from the revolver out into the brass bucket that they really understand that they fired bullets/projectiles rather than mini cartridges. And, when they see how well they perform as serrated hollow points, they are even more impressed.

I don't expect any of them to run out and buy swaging gear.

But I smile, knowing that they are rightly impressed with the ability to make "free" XTP look alikes.


I would like to add the range fun factor. Take several of your slugs to the range with you and show them off. My club set up a steel plate range this year and I constantly see people looking at the little range stars that my 44's leave. They will pick them up and start scratching their head. I will then approach them and explain what they are. I keep a few in my range bag to show people. You won't believe the people who think they are loaded rounds after I explain what they are.

[Prospector Howard]

I've gotten that question about brass jackets being hard on the barrel quite a few times over the years. My response is, haven't you ever heard of Remington Golden Saber bullets? That usually does the trick.

[mold maker]

Properly swaged bullets are inherently cleaner than cast boolits, if for no other reason than the bullet lube attracting dirt. The brass jacket is easier on your barrell, than copper, because of the zinc in it.
Swagers don't risk damage to expensive dies with dirty brass.

[fredj338]

I've gotten that question about brass jackets being hard on the barrel quite a few times over the years. My response is, haven't you ever heard of Remington Golden Saber bullets? That usually does the trick.
I just can't see this. Beside the RGS, Montana Gold's jackets in handgun bullets appear to be a brass alloy. An annealed brass jacket is pretty damn soft. It has a soft lead core. It's not like you are shooting monometals, much harder on bbls IMO.

[Reload3006]

considering a lot of European countries use steel as a jacket material I dont think brass is going to harm your barrel at all. Certainly no more than commercial jackets. If you dont clean it perhaps but even so no more than commercial jackets or bullets. Cupro-nickle Or copper nickle alloy was a common jacket material in the past. Pretty tough stuff. I have like others shot thousands of Rimfire jacketed bullets with no more issue than commercial bullets. Keep stuff clean and as long as its softer than your gun barrel its going to swage down and not harm your barrel. The hot gasses from the powder burn is much more harmful than any bullet will ever be.

[fredj338]

Actually more guys will ruin bbls by over or improper cleaning than shooting.

[Prospector Howard]

For the record, I'm not saying that I think the brass jackets are hard on the barrel. What I'm saying is that almost every time I've shown other shooters my swaged bullets, the first thing out of their mouths is; "isn't the brass hard on the barrel". I then have to explain the whole thing and point to to the fact that Remington (one of the biggest ammo producers in the world) uses cartridge brass for jackets. It seems to be one of those initial reactions from shooters that have never swaged before.